Project M Social Thread Gold

[Empyrean]

If GCC had a ZL, it would be perfect.

 

[SpiderMad]

Spidermad: your sub-optimal controls are the real crime here

See if you get something beastly going for better multi-shines, and we'll do some kind of challenge off to my pretty good method I use (I just got double shine laser down to a nice consistent level with Falco, happy about that but I haven't been able to use it besides seeing Kels do it on Link once in a while with his slow OOS options). Wes actually starts to irritate me how he goes for Multi-shines after every stock and usually gets hit lol.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EAMoJ8ZpvjE#t=163

I do need to set Footstool to something, though I'm lazy to get to the CustomCS sometimes [until LightPress <3] (they should move it to be inside Versus mode or something to get to easier). It would either be R, or Y I would set footstool to and probably then set R to Attack for MW-Trick/C-dash/C-dashpivot/DACUS (though I've gotten decent at Metroid's/SB's method of using A). I would also use C-stick set to Attack for awesome Nairs (frame perfect Nair platform drops, frame perfect non-halted momentum Nairs during jumps; all the reasons C-stick is good for all the other aerials) but it's got horrible issues with going back to neutral beyond me not liking F-smash being f-tilt. C-stick Nair is best for Ike, CF in dittos, and sort of DK.

Also some of the good people in my local tourney region moved OOS for College (Aki who should be doing good in Washington, and Faceroll who should be doing as decent as you can I suppose in Cali, and one or two others) so now I'm gonna plan to get third at everything lol, including Melee which is gonna be tough (I got lucky in the most recent one of one the good players having to leave soon during our match anyways). Been going generally Diddy/Squirtle in PM and Falco in Melee.
http://challonge.com/ghqpmmonthly3
http://challonge.com/ghqmonthlymelee3/standings
Month ago http://challonge.com/ghqpmmonthly2/standings

 

[standardtoaster]

@GHNeko i'm down to play for like another 20 mins from now and then i'm done for now

 

[Frost | Odds]

@ SpiderMad that's a lot of cool stuff. Is PMDepot your channel exclusively, or is it some kind of collab thing?

I don't think doubleshine/multishine is that good unless your opponent knows you also go for shinegrabs, or he keeps trying to grab you after shine #1 for some reason.

Also, I spent like half of today softmodding my wii to lead into learning how to hack it, before realizing that the phrase 'usb gecko' referred to a specific piece of hardware, and not running Gecko from a usb loader. Goddamn. Anybody know how I can get started making 'cheats'/mods for wii games/reading/changing game code? I've done some of the very simple search a value -> search again after it's altered Gameshark kind of stuff in the very distant past, but no idea where to start with anything more meaningful. I've got some experience coding in several assembly languages, but am pretty out of my depth here.

I've been digging around in the Smash Workshop forums, but that stuff mostly seems like file replacement (textures, etc). I want to get into the meat of it -- engine changes and so forth. PM and the 20XX Hack Pack are just of a different calibur; though the fact that the latter was apparently created by an (at the time) newbie gives me hope.

... Just found a fistful of Brawl codes by @ standardtoaster on Dolphin via riivolution. Huh.

 

[Soft Serve]

@ SpiderMad that's a lot of cool stuff. Is PMDepot your channel exclusively, or is it some kind of collab thing?

I don't think doubleshine/multishine is that good unless your opponent knows you also go for shinegrabs, or he keeps trying to grab you after shine #1 for some reason.

Doubleshines are normally just a bad time-sink and a waste for Fox/Falco tbh, but Wolf definetly needs it because if they try ti CC/ASDI the nair>shine then they get knocked down, and double shine covers that option. shine-grabs are the best though

 

[Empyrean]

"Nair shine is garbage" -Hax 2014

 

[DMG]

"I am so BM" -BM reported to once have been Hax

 

[trash?]

quick reminder, my scheme:

A = jump
B = grab
Y = footstool (dtaunt in particular, in case I accidentally copy a bad ability and want to ledge cancel it)
X = special
R = attack


get on my horrific level

 

[Badge]

Also, I spent like half of today softmodding my wii to lead into learning how to hack it, before realizing that the phrase 'usb gecko' referred to a specific piece of hardware, and not running Gecko from a usb loader. Goddamn. Anybody know how I can get started making 'cheats'/mods for wii games/reading/changing game code?

Nowadays it's easier to use Dolphin's debug features instead of USB Gecko. @InternetExplorer did a very nice live stream introduction on Wii Coding, the video of which can now be found here. You should check it out, if you haven't already. I remember looking for any kind of relevant info on Wii coding for several days but not making good progress on the matter, until IE came to the rescue.

 

[Эикельманн [РУС]]

hey guys. melee player here. lemme give a little background. i've struggled super hard to enjoy pm and adapt to how different my characters feel and stuff in pm. as a result, i pretty much can't take ganondorf, bowser, or dk as seriously as i'd like, and my skill doesn't really seem to transfer over very well for any of them. very depressing because i'm extremely passionate about those three characters.

however, just stumbled upon a character that i genuinely enjoy playing as, and that i can enjoy playing against other characters that previously made me abhor the game (lucas, meta knight, zss, ivysaur, etc). i'm not sure how good or bad sheik is in pm, but she's absolutely the only character i can get a feel for. the game is truly enjoyable for me when i play this character.

so some of my questions to you guys are 1) are there any good pm sheiks i can watch? if so, names? 2) how good is sheik, and how relevant is good and bad in this game, compared to melee and 64?

 

[Soft Serve]

hey guys. melee player here. lemme give a little background. i've struggled super hard to enjoy pm and adapt to how different my characters feel and stuff in pm. as a result, i pretty much can't take ganondorf, bowser, or dk as seriously as i'd like, and my skill doesn't really seem to transfer over very well for any of them. very depressing because i'm extremely passionate about those three characters.

however, just stumbled upon a character that i genuinely enjoy playing as, and that i can enjoy playing against other characters that previously made me abhor the game (lucas, meta knight, zss, ivysaur, etc). i'm not sure how good or bad sheik is in pm, but she's absolutely the only character i can get a feel for. the game is truly enjoyable for me when i play this character.

so some of my questions to you guys are 1) are there any good pm sheiks i can watch? if so, names? 2) how good is sheik, and how relevant is good and bad in this game, compared to melee and 64?

Sheik is good, and can only get better once recoveries get nerfed. I think you can Find some videos of KirbyKaze playing PM sheik, she pretty much plays the same but she has more MU's to learn and options to respect. Umbreon thinks she's godlike

 

[Vashimus]

Umbreon is gay tho

Or maybe that's just his Sheik

 

[Эикельманн [РУС]]

any good vids of mow's pm sheik?

 

[DMG]

Sheik will probably be noticeably better in 3.5 with character and recovery changes. She's in a decent state right now, just not as dominant as Melee Sheik was (and this is a good thing though)

I don't think Mow has anything recent recorded. Either way, I'd maybe check Top Players & Vids by Character

You'll probably find recent and decent Sheik vids there

 

[PMS | Tink-er]

A thing to note is that having an excellent Sheik is a sign of great skill, but have a great Sheilda is ****ing impressive. Zelda is godlike in PM, and I think that she covers a lot of Sheik's weaknesses. I encourage you to mess around with Zelda and see if you'd enjoy maining Sheilda. The MU flexibility of knowing both characters is incredible.

Also, iirc Sheik has her PAL dthrow, so you might be able to pick up some ideas for how to follow up put off a grab by watching some European tournaments.

The big trade-offs for having a harder time following up a throw PM Sheik has are:

1) Zelda is good. Don't be afraid to transform to recover, just be aware transforming is a little slow. And transforming shakes off Snake's C4.

2) Crawl

3) Wall cling. Be aware that it's very easy to jump out of wall cling straight up, so your recovery might look like double jump to wall > wall cling > jump out of wall cling > wall jump > vanish.

I never see anyone abusing wall clinging, but it's my favorite addition to Sheik and Squirtle. Wall cling > fair and wall cling > bubble are so powerful.

 

[Yung Mei]

I fell asleep at work and dreamt about smashing kailex/tink-er

In various ways

 

[DMG]

Were you Ganon, Dark Overlord of Smash and Pancakes?

 

[PMS | Tink-er]

A guy at work asked for a beer when I asked him what drink he wanted with his combo. He spelt it out when I asked. Apparently it's BERR. Dude was so drunk.

 

[Frost | Odds]

Nowadays it's easier to use Dolphin's debug features instead of USB Gecko. @InternetExplorer did a very nice live stream introduction on Wii Coding, the video of which can now be found here. You should check it out, if you haven't already. I remember looking for any kind of relevant info on Wii coding for several days but not making good progress on the matter, until IE came to the rescue.

You're a god, and so is @InternetExplorer. I know how I'm spending my day.

 

[DMG]

The real god is Magus

 

[Bleck]

@ Bleck what are your actual opinions on Smash 4 so far? Curious.

Here's some vague stream of consciousness musings about the game.

With regards to the more 'casual' parts of the game, the 3DS version feels very wide, but perhaps not very deep, like a really big pool that only goes up to your knees. Classic and All-Star and Stadium are all fine and dandy, but I can't help but feel as though the game suffers from AGS (Asian Grind Syndrome), where the large majority of the accomplishments in the game can be summarized as 'do this, and then do it again'. The challenge board is a great idea and I always like it, but it quickly degenerates into things that I feel like one can't go out of one's way to beat without getting completely burnt out on single-player very quickly (i.e beat [x] mode with every character).

I feel like Smash Run is great, but suffers (at least in a North American setting) from being a) local only and b) on the handheld version. I'd previously hypothesized ...somewhere (either Smashboards or on Facebook, I can't remember) that Smash Run was intended to be the go-to 'pick up and play' mode of the game, having little in the way of customizable rules to worry about. You're on the bus and see somebody with a 3DS looking to Smash? Instead of spending time deciding whether or not you want items on or etc., you just play a round of Smash Run. Everyone is happy.

That being said, as a big fan of City Trial from Kirby's Air Ride, and as a staunch believer that a portable console's biggest strength is its portability, I believe that Smash Run should have been a feature in the console version - I got Smash 4 for the 3DS because I like the idea of being able to play Smash quickly whenever I want, wherever I am - as such, I think that Smash Run (and to a lesser extent, online play in general) was a waste on the portable version. The chances of there being other Smashers that just so happen to be nearby (not to mention the chance that we actually even interact with each other) whenever I'm playing the portable version is low enough that I feel as though there should have been more focus on the single player content. Which, of course, I still feel is substantial enough, but as I said, could have benefit from a bit more depth. Why not have a Boss Rush similar to Brawl's, with bosses exclusive to the 3DS version? Why not bring back old favorites like Break the Targets and/or Board The Platforms for people to try and compete for high scores? I'm disappointed that what I feel like is a great game mode (Smash Run) is something that I'm barely ever going to get to actually play with people, 'cause I'm not exactly interested in interacting with each other in public whilst in transit, and by the time the Wii U version comes out, well, if I'm ever playing Smash 4 locally, it's just gonna be on that on a nice big TV with a Gamecube controller, you know?

As far the more "competitive" aspects of the game, I think that it's a huge improvement from both Brawl and Melee - I've made it clear more than a few times that I don't think Brawl's failures were necessarily Melee's successes and vice versa. That being said, I think that Smash 4 is not the successor to Melee that a lot of people wanted (and will never get, at least not as a Smash game), and as such is going to probably cause a rough divide in the community.

I think that there's basically two kinds of Smash players, at this point - the people who play Melee because Brawl wasn't really an appropriate competitive game, and the people who play Melee because Brawl was different than Melee (I believe it's likely that the majority of Project M players fall under the former category). In this sense, Smash 4 was doomed to fail for many from the start - while the former group will be pleased to have a new Smash that's actually viable as a competitive fighting game (I'll get to that later), the latter group will inevitably be displeased with anything that isn't Melee. The relatively disgruntled response I've seen from many notable smashers towards Smash 4 more or less confirms my suspicions of that, I think.

So while it doesn't have Melee's technical-movement orientation, Smash 4 feels very good to play - it's responsive, it's dynamic, it's accessible, and it's rewarding.

I'm sure anyone reading this who's played it has noticed that it's faster and less floaty than Brawl. A lot of people tend to say that it's not as 'defensive' as Brawl, but that's always been bull**** (both Melee and Brawl's metagames are overwhelmingly defensively oriented) - it's more apt to say that Smash 4 is better at rewarding intelligent aggression, while simultaneously being better at punishing overly defensive play. Spot dodges and air dodges are less reliable, forcing you to actually read well for them to be useful. Shields don't seem to last as long (or it seems that way, at least), and there are more options than ever that are specifically designed to punish shield heavy players - but on the same token, dropping one's shield is now much faster, so actually shielding something correctly is no longer a punishable offense. Making the player's defensive options much more situational has made the game much more cerebral - while it doesn't have the intricate duck-and-weave style that Melee eventually developed (at the expense of much of the game, mechanically), it doesn't need it. While Melee has a competitive focus on execution of action, Smash 4's competitive focus will be on execution of strategy - reading your opponent will be much more important, which in the long run will make Smash 4 pretty interesting.

Balance-wise, it's too early to say objectively. I feel as though there are basically four types of characters in Smash 4 (with some overlap, of course), all of which seem like they're more or less as good as each other (warning; opinions ahead);

• Fast, aggressive characters, with strong sets of normals and interesting specials to complement. Sheik, Zero Suit Samus, Greninja, Captain Falcon, Lucario, Meta Knight, Peach, Fox, Yoshi, Wii Fit Trainer and Sonic all fall under this category. There's also Little Mac, who plays very differently than the rest of those, but is arguably the same idea. I think these characters will all have a focus on playing aggressively, going for extended combos and early KOs, but will suffer from having difficult-to-land kill options and poor/predictable recoveries. Note that this is basically the only kind of character that's viable in Melee.
• Methodical, spacing oriented characters, with slow-to-medium speed normals with disjointed/extended reaches. Marth, Robin, Ness, Lucina, Pit and Dark Pit, Mr. Game and Watch, Palutena Ike, Shulk, Pikachu, Jigglypuff, Bowser Jr... basically all the characters with swords or weapons. These characters will be more about reacting to your opponents than going for combos, with easier ways to kill but less ways to rack up damage, and generally better recoveries than the first group.
• Very similar to the second group is the zoners, characters with movesets that revolve around controlling space, usually with lots of projectiles. Rosalina, Samus, Duck Hunt, Mega Man, Pac-Man, Diddy Kong, Villager, Link and Toon Link, Olimar, Zelda, ROB, all the characters with notable projectiles and extended space control. These characters also seem to have generally the best recoveries, but often not that many tools for dealing with lots of up close aggression (or if they do, the tools are generally predictable or relatively ineffective).
• Finally, we have the BIG FATTIES, whose whole deal is that they're enormous, hard to kill, and hit really hard. These characters have always basically been the worst in Smash, but this time around they've all been given tools, whether character specific or game-wide mechanics, to be better than they've ever been. Bowser, Donkey Kong, Charizard, Ganondorf, King Dedede round out this relatively small group, but I feel as though they have more of a fighting chance than they ever had before, and are probably the most fun characters to watch. They also, notably, all have a move that they can use to try and suicide KO.

Some character specific thoughts;

Rosalina is currently my contender for Best Character. Her control of space is incredible - all of her normals have hitboxes that I can only describe as very ****ing generous, her damage is notable, her recovery is fantastic, and she's basically immune to projectiles. Smart, capable players will use the Luma in such a way where you're basically fighting two characters at once - like the Ice Climbers, except much more threatening. It also seems like it's impossible to grab her if the Luma is near, which is obviously huge. Expect to see strong results from her.

Bowser seems notably good for a big fatty - lots attacks that, despite hitting hard, are really fast, a noticeably buffed recovery ranged, and his huge weight makes him benefit the most from the rage mechanic. An early lead with Bowser will go a long way in matches, probably. I especially like that his neutral B isn't an enormous waste of time, now.

I've tried to defend Dark Pit as being a clone similar to Dr. Mario (who I played a lot of in Melee), and that a clone here and there is better than not having a character there at all - but unlike Dr. Mario and Lucina, I feel like Dark Pit is basically the same as Pit, and it's not very interesting. So, bleh.

I don't really care about the Mii Fighters.

Pac-Man is probably my favorite character to actually play as (thankfully, since I was clearly very hyped about him), but will probably not be my competitive main (Greninja, who just so happens to be one of my favorite pokemon). I love all of his tools and I feel like he's really smooth to play as, but I've found it way too difficult to land any of his KO moves reliably so far.

Everyone seems to have a pocket Little Mac (even me!), but I don't think he's that good. Definitely good, but I feel like people playing him in reaction to losing is based more on how satisfying he feels to play as and less on how often he actually wins.

King Dedede's Gordos are simultaneously the best and worst projectile in the game.

I don't know what to think about Wario. He just sort of exists and I feel as though I'm supposed to acknowledge him but I can't look at him for too long or my brain starts to hurt.

While Fox is probably a strong contender all around (though his Reflector is basically the worst parts of the Melee and Brawl versions combined), Falco feels like he was hit maybe a bit too hard with the nerf bat. While I don't think he's bad, I do feel as though he (likely inadvertantly) suffers the most from wide gameplay changes that were probably made for balance reasons. Projectiles were nerfed across the board, but it feels especially jarring with Falco, who now takes forever and a day to shoot a laser and to put his gun away. Recoveries are generally stronger, but with Falco this means just barely being able to recover, whereas before he just plain couldn't, so now he feels noticeably weak in this area. Chaingrabs are gone, so his most reliable damage option from Brawl doesn't exist (though I feel this change was for the best). His legendary down aerial has been changed to a move that, on any other character, would feel fine (and arguably, it's still fine on Falco), but compared to his old one, feels just... bleh. I always mained Falco in previous games because I love Star Fox and Falco has always been my favorite character, and I've always bemoaned him being so strong in Melee and Brawl 'cause I felt like a scrub for playing Falco all the time, you know? But now, while I still think he's okay-to-good, he just feels really stilted and jarring for longtime Falco players from Melee or Brawl. Probably my only real disappointment, as far as characters go. That being said, while at this point I'm maining Pac-Man and Greninja, I'll still probably play a lot of Falco, 'cause he'll always be my favorite.


---

That's all I can think of right now. If you have any other specific questions, I'm always willing to post many, many words in response.

 

[DMG]

Wario is a BR character in Smash 4 and I hope to see them fix his grab release issue

 

[PMS | Tink-er]

That was really interesting to read Bleck.

Also what is BR.

 

[DMG]

Mordekaiser es #1 huehuehuehue

Do you have to ask any further?

 

[Bleck]

Mordekaiser is still stupid, even if nobody plays him anymore.

 

[RedCap-BlueSpikes]

We gotta keep in mind that things like that Rosa infinite will probably be patched (especially since the ZSS VS Robin infinite already got patched). Other fighting games release with crazy glitches and broken infinites, Smash is no exception.

 

[Frost | Odds]

Jungle Mordekaizer 4 lyfe

 

[PMS | Tink-er]

It's LoL?

My roommate used to play that game. He apparently didn't know how auto attack and pathing ai worked, because he was clicking on the screen constantly. Clicking on the enemy you're attacking doesn't do anything, and clicking on the spot your character is already navigating to does nothing, but his clicks per minute were probably around 180

 

[Gamegenie222]

Umm the ZSS infinite is still in homie.

 

[Empyrean]

Weird, so many people (including Ninjalink, I think) were saying it got patched.

 

[Plum]

It's LoL?

My roommate used to play that game. He apparently didn't know how auto attack and pathing ai worked, because he was clicking on the screen constantly. Clicking on the enemy you're attacking doesn't do anything, and clicking on the spot your character is already navigating to does nothing, but his clicks per minute were probably around 180

This is something like every MOBA player does. Keeping your APM high at all times does have its benefits, constant small movements makes you a harder target to hit with skillshots, and can help mask your movement similar to dash dancing. This is especially noticeable in lane when minions are around. You often don't want to push the lane, so you only last hit the minions. If you stand near minions your champ automatically attempts to attack them, the two ways to not auto attack minions is to either press the stop key, or to just always be on the move as that will take precedence over auto attack. Using the stop key isn't ideal because you're just standing still waiting to be hit by an opposing skillshot, so you just constantly click to move.
There's also just the old mentality of mashing a button in hopes of doing something faster even when you know that it makes absolutely no difference. Mashing A didn't get me through Professor Oak's introduction any faster, but I sure as hell did it anyways.

 

[The_Altrox]

Hey @ Bleck , while I can't say I agree with all of your post, I did like reading it. Very insightful. I like Smash 4 too, but then again, I like all smash games.

What do you think of ? Currently, is my favorite character to play as. Lot of speed and power, solid recovery, decent combo ability and just straight out fun to play. I see him being either high tier or high-mid at this rate.

 

[TreK]

Yesterday, I've felt for the second time in one and a half years of playing PM that I lost to a character instead of losing to a player.
It feels really, really bad.

Any advice ?

 

[Plum]

What character?

 

[CORY]

accept that counter characters can and do exist?

though, what was the matchup that you lost in?

 

[Smooth Criminal]

I can get behind what @ Bleck 's saying entirely. He summed up my thoughts of Smash 4 very nicely.

Smooth Criminal

 

[TreK]

I lost to a Marth player, as Ivysaur.
I 2 stocked his Snake pretty convincingly, and then he switched to Marth. He then 0-deathed me 12 times in a row. The only two stocks he's lost were suicide KOs because he just disrespected me that much.

 

[PMS | Tink-er]

Sounds like you didn't know the matchup to me, man. It can't be nearly as hard for ivy to get in on Marth as it is for Ganon, but people can still make Marth/Ganon work.

 

[standardtoaster]

isn't marth one of ivy's worst matchups?

 

[Gamegenie222]

Yeah Marth beats Ivy pretty bad. Ivy's weight and size is just combo food for Marth and you can get f-throw chains galore against Ivy if you don't know how to DI against it.