Prepare to be Astounded One Last Time: Wiseguy’s Brawl Predictions THE FINAL VERSION!

[Vali]

Anyway PT is more like 2 character seeing as a few of his stuff (Story etc) will only be for 1 person so the work he saved from that would be put into creating another character.

I think the moveset creation, model creation and animation, balancing issues and the like take up far more time to do than the single player things. I honestly don't think that the time it takes to do 2 stories (if there are expansive individual ones, this is taking into account that we know virtually nothing about the single player aspect of Brawl and each character's inclusion could be a small part in 1 giant story) is equal to the 1 of the previously mentioned aspects. And what of ZSS? She should count as 1 too, and yet by your system she's only what, 2/3? That would pretty much force everyone to include at least 1 clone on their list but then again the 1/3 was by Melee's standards and since each clone would have to have their own individual story (maybe) then they'd be more like 1/2. So instead of getting into 1/2's and 1/3's, could we just stick to clones = 1/3, transformations = 1? ;p

The way I see it is this:

Transformations: Needs everything that a regular character does, bar certain aspects which include: Single Player (unknown, thus could range from hardly any production time to 1/2 of the production time for all we know), stage (if each character gets their own stage, purely speculation as it didn't happen in Melee so probably should get ignored until proof) and character portrait (negligible I'm sure). This is remembering that Sheik had his/her/it's/potatoe's own sounds/model/animation/moveset/victory pose in Melee.

Additional production time added in since it vastly effects the balancing of a single character. Make the transformation too strong and it either needs to be toned down or some method from stopping it being abused. The PT employs Stamina, which avoids the abuse of 1 Pokemon against an opponent that it may have an advantage over. The whole character also needs to be re-evaluated and balanced accordingly because a strong character that can transform and adapt to other situations is stronger for it, and thus becomes too strong. This means that both the original character and the transformation need to be designed in tandam for balance. In the case of PT, this means a 3 way balance attempting to make a character balanced that is adapatable to many situations but can't be too weak in their own right to make sure that each Pokemon can hold it's own with a skilled player. There's no point being adaptable if each of your characters is more like a different type of Pichu after all (or insert other useless Melee character in here).

So it comes down to an undefined time save of cutting the single player against gross balancing issues. Considering that they're going to strive for perfect balance, after all no characters are designed to be vastly overpowered but they just end up that way and others significantly more useless, this is going to have an affect on the production time. How big an affect? Well that of course is pure speculation, I know I'd have a hard time trying to balance a 3-way character transformation up against a potential cast of 40 other characters.

@PrettyGoodYear

It's not about the roster size, it's about the production time. *proceeds to bash head against wall*

 

[PrettyGoodYear]

@PrettyGoodYear

It's not about the roster size, it's about the production time. *proceeds to bash head against wall*

That I understand... but Sakurai did say he was planning on doubling the roster but decided against it because he thought 50 characters would be too much, so I'd say transformation are a way of kind of keeping that in check, and we will see 40-45 characters on the select screen.

 

[DJ Napps]

i see that Bonk has left your prediction list, however Bomberman is still MIA.

xD

~Bomberman 4 Brawl~

 

[Vali]

That I understand... but Sakurai did say he was planning on doubling the roster but decided against it because he thought 50 characters would be too much, so I'd say transformation are a way of kind of keeping that in check, and we will see 40-45 characters on the select screen.

I don't think Sakurai has ever said anything of the sort. Sakurai said this, Sakurai said that, Sakurai said <insert fabricated lie here>. If it ain't on the Dojo or from Nintendo or some reliable source like IGN that isn't posting it strictly as a rumour then it's probably not believable.

If Sakurai had the time to do 50 characters (and was doing it) then it wouldn't matter if he had 40-45 characters on the selection screen or 50, there'd still be 50 characters worth of production time going into it. However many people actually appear on the roster screen isn't important because it's the production time of those 50 that matters and the transformations would be counted as characters in that regard. If you were actually trying to prove my point, thank you.

 

[Chains]

i see that Bonk has left your prediction list, however Bomberman is still MIA.

xD

~Bomberman 4 Brawl~

Me? My predicton list?

 

[Bane]

I assume he meant Wise's...
Bomberman's vaguely possible, not not what you could call likely... I wouldn't pop a disk if he did get in, but I wouldn't bet anything that he would be a PC... and I mean anything, lint would still be too much to risk... an assist trophy seems more likely...

 

[jimmysilverrims]

I agree, It's not like I hate Bomberman. And he has been in a game with Wario before, but it just seems too... meh. He's a great character, but I'm sure Nintendo want's to branch off in each main franchise's mascot. I garentee that Sonic is in Brawl. Seriously. And seeing as Snake (Konami) and Sonic (SEGA) are in/almost in I'd say that the two Capcom reps are tyied at Bomberman and Megaman. They apppear to have equal chances, but let's face it: Megaman has seen a lot more action then Bomberman as of late. Bomberman was (And kind of is) a big character, but now Megaman has a crapload of GBA games, enough to build a house out of, but that's not the point.

It also boils down to originality. Bomberman (as the name suggests) uses bombs. And uses bombs. And even more bombs. I can't really see much more moves then bombs. Manwhile, Megaman has hundreds of possible moves that can be diffrent that Samus's and hundreds of games to pull moves out of. What I'm saying is, although I like bomberman a LOT and would like to see him in Brawl, it just seems too unlikely.

'Nuff said.

 

[Loooooni]

when will Geno return to your list wiseguy

 

[Devastlian]

Um...

Bomberman is owned by Hudson which is owned by Konami even though they're run independently still or something like that.

 

[pineappleupsetshark]

Bomberman would fit into Brawl better than Megaman, unless it was the more modern form.
I like Bomberman a lot, because he's cute. However, both Bomberman and Megaman are pretty dull. A guy in a mask who throws bombs and a laser-cannon robot. How...uncreative....
Whereas, we have an Italian plumber, electric mouse, and freaky egg-throwing dinosaur thing(?) in Brawl.
I find much more potential in Simon Belmont, so I'd put him in as the third and final third-party character, after Snake and Sonic.

 

[Goopygoo]

Megaman has 64 unique weapons in his classic form. Just so ya know. But hey, it's your opinion.

 

[pineappleupsetshark]

It's not fighting style, it's his appearance that really rubs me the wrong way.
For Bomberman, it's his apparent lack of non-bomb moves.
Simon Belmont, as Wiseguy has explained, has an arsenal of cool weapons, including a whip!

 

[Goopygoo]

True, true...but Megaman has dozens more to draw from. Personally, I hope Megaman gets in over Simon. Although, considering the only Castlevania I've truly like was Symphony of the Night, I might be somewhat biased.

 

[Dark Sonic]

I personally would prefer Megaman over Bomberman anyday. Besides, before you put that picture up, I didn't even know what Bomberman looked like.

 

[raphtmarqui]

Somehow i doubt bomberman will be in.

 

[OysterMeister]

Hudson has always had good relations with Nintendo, and Bomberman is both popular and beloved. Given this, I'd say his chances are good, certainly better than what most people would assume.

What always surprises me the most is the idea that a character with a moveset based on explosions would be dull and uninteresting.
"Man, Bomberman just blew me up. The explosion sent shockwaves roaring across the screen and flung my flame-ridden corpse clear into the stratosphere, while a massive plume of colored plasma erupted from the impact site. I'm telling you, I nearly fell asleep"

 

[Arteen]

It also boils down to originality. Bomberman (as the name suggests) uses bombs. And uses bombs. And even more bombs. I can't really see much more moves then bombs. Manwhile, Megaman has hundreds of possible moves that can be diffrent that Samus's and hundreds of games to pull moves out of. What I'm saying is, although I like bomberman a LOT and would like to see him in Brawl, it just seems too unlikely.

Of course, Megaman's attacks consist primarily of beam attacks. And beam attacks. And even more beam attacks. I can't really see much more moves than beam attacks.

 

[Dark Sonic]

Of course, Megaman's attacks consist primarily of beam attacks. And beam attacks. And even more beam attacks. I can't really see much more moves than beam attacks.

Actually, Megaman uses a bunch of different weapons. Most of his beam attacks are just his megabuster. He's actually go quite a bunch of unique weapons.

 

[jimmysilverrims]

Hello everybody! Looks like we've gotten a really interesting update to start off the week: Pit's decent. So, now we know that the 'mysterious person' Pit was facing in the screenshot. Platunea. Platuna? Plateuna? Whatever. Very cool, I think that this bodes well with what we'll se the rest of the week.

 

[jimmysilverrims]

Jeez, no one's here! Oh well, I double posted to say: I wish I had MP3! WAAAAAH!!!

 

[Goopygoo]

This is something I stated in the Megaman for Brawl thread:

I also think copying opponents should be a no-no. Why? Because the blue bomber had 8 classic main games. Each game had 8 robot masters (I'm including Time Man and Oil Man from MMU) Each robot master had 1 weapon to copy. That's 64 weapons. Now then, let's consider this:
There were 4 boomerang weapons: Cut Man, Quick Man, Ring Man, Knight Man
7 bombs: Bomb Man, Crash Man, Drill Man, Napalm Man (I think), Flame Man (Considered a bomb because it explodes in a pillar of flame upon touching the floor), Burst Man, Grenade Man
2 beam weapons: Gemini Man, Cloud Man
19 missile/projectile weapons: Ice Man, Metal Man, Heat Man, Shadow Man, Spark Man, Magnet Man, Needle Man, Hard Man, Pharaoh Man, Dust Man, Dive Man, Gyro Man, Tomahawk Man, Wind Man, Yamato Man, Shade Man, Frost Man, Aqua Man, Search Man
6 shields (Can also be considered projectiles, since you shoot them out afterwards): Fire Man, Wood Man, Skull Man, Star Man, Plant Man, Junk Man
2 slides: Oil Man, Charge Man
2 close-range attacks: Slash Man, Sword Man
4 time weapons: Time Man, Flash Man, Bright Man, Centaur Man
8 spread weapons: Guts Man, Elec Man, Air Man, Stone Man, Crystal Man, Blizzard Man, Freeze Man, Spring Man
4 crawling weapons: Bubble Man, Snake Man, Wave Man (I think), Turbo Man
2 jump attacks: Top Man, Tengu Man
2 swarm weapons: Toad Man, Astro Man
1 grounding attack: Gravity Man
1 grappling hook: Clown Man

This makes 14 unique attacks, plus the mega buster, beat, rush, and the mega ball, which makes 18 unique attacks. And you want him to be a freaking KIRBY CLONE??? In fact, here's a move setup I've made for megaman:

Neutral A-(1%-10%, depending on how charged it is)Mega Buster. Can be charged.
Forward A-(5%-10%)Rolling Cutter. Flies in a complete circle and returns to megaman.
Up A-(11%-14%)Super Arm. Creates a Guts Block that can be thrown by pushing A again.
Down A-(7%-20%)Search Snake. Sends out a snake that crawls along any surface it touches. Disappears on contact with an enemy.
Dash A-(5%-11%)Charge Kick. Megaman does a dash, hurting opponents in his way.
Forward A Smash-(17%-20%)Metal Blade. Shoots out a metal razor disc.
Up A Smash-(11%-23%)Flame Blast. Creates a tall pillar of flame where Megaman stands.
Down A Smash-(1%-2%)Skull Barrier. Creates a barrier of skulls that damage anyone who touches it. It disappears if Megaman moves.
Forward A Arial-(8%-12%)Gyro Attack. Sends out a spinning wheel.
Backward A Arial-(7%-18%)Slash Claw. Megaman does a twist/slash in the air.
Up A Arial-(5%-11%)Wild Coil. Throws two coils in random directions that bounce off of surfaces. Disappears upon touching an enemy.
Down A Arial-(11%-17%)Top Spin. Megaman does a spin in the air.
Grab-(N/A)Thunder Claw. Grabs the opponent and pulls them closer. Can also be used for tether recovery.
Neutral B-(11%-18%)Thunder Beam. Shoots out an electric beam.
Left/Right B-(23%-31%)Crash Bomb. Shoots a missile that will latch onto an opponent, much like like the gooey bomb. If the victim is hit, the bomb will come off. Has a medium lag.
Up B-(19%-20%)Hyper Bomb. Megaman throws a bomb. Bomb explodes within 5 seconds of throwing.
Down B-(N/A)Time Slow. Causes any enemies in range to move half as slow for a short time.
Final Smash-(Don't know how much damage these do on average)Astro Crush. Causes meteors to rain down on the stage, damaging any who touch one.

He's pretty d*** special, if I say so myself.

 

[Shuma]

Megaman can do ANYTHING. We all know it, whant missiles? he has them, beams? done. Plasma? sure why not. Dash? yep Sword? done, radar? done, Drill? done,

Etc etc.

 

[raphtmarqui]

^Quoted for truth

 

[Legolastom]

Megaman can do ANYTHING. We all know it, whant missiles? he has them, beams? done. Plasma? sure why not. Dash? yep Sword? done, radar? done, Drill? done,

Etc etc.

Dont forget if you want to flash people or you want a hard one.

 

[PhantomEdge]

dude simon belmont is so awesome!! he has to make it in!!

 

[jimmysilverrims]

Looks like it's time for my patented color coded charts! Third Party Remix!

Snake
Sonic (Duh!)
Megaman (He's pretty unique, I can see him being diffrent from Samus)
Bomberman (Now in the new flavor: GREEN!)
Simon Belmont (He's the Indiana Jones meets Van Helsing hybrid!)
Leon Kennedy (The Zomie slayer most likely won't see Brawl)
Master Chief (Need I say more?)

Red- Confirmed
Dark Orange- Practically Confirmed
Orange- Probable
Yellow- Possible
NEW! Green- Plausable
Light Orange- Not Likely
Light Yellow- Near Impossible

 

[neoREgen]

I've swayed in the Megaman/Bomberman debate as well, and while I side with Megaman, I realized that neither of them is that awesome. Megaman used to be awesome. Bomberman is cool. But I think we've narrowed our choices prematurely.
A brainstorming session might merit different results.

On Megaman's copy ability- he only gained an enemy's moves after defeating that enemy, so why not have that apply to Brawl? When Megaman gets a kill, he gets an ability from the recently deceased as one of his B moves (to be decided by which move that character implements best).

A friend of mine mentioned Chrono from Chrono Trigger as being great a great fan pleaser.
Think about it- if they have Sonic, they have a third-party character intended for mass appeal. Snake is sort've an off-the-wall choice (only in due to a loophole and begging), so the last third-party character doesn't necessarily have to be based on who the mass audience knows best, but something for the hardcore fans.
So, do you think Chrono would have a chance against Bomberman or Megaman?

 

[Legolastom]

Well the third party spaces are limited so only the best and well most import to Nintendo / Video games will get in, IMO.

Its not really like 1st party where you can have this one off the wall and the other one representing this game and this retro one, the only ones that will get in would be well the BEST and most important now im not saying Chrono is less important but who do you think Nintendo will chose? Mega man or Chrono?

I'm not good with these arguments but... if you where making a game and one of your best friends begged to have one of their characters in (Who was very important) you would let them in wouldn't you(If you where considering third party of course)?

 

[Kirby knight]

Chrono Trigger was a great game but Chrono was just boring. No personality what so ever. I know if Chrono Trigger was going to get someone to rep it he'd be the number 1 choice. I'd rather see Magus or Frog though as a CT rep ^_^

-Knight

 

[Viroxor]

Megaman rules, and he's got every type of weapon imaginable. His Final Smash could be the Rush Super Adapter. He flies around and fires barrages of homing shots for a limited amount of time.

 

[jimmysilverrims]

Good point, Megaman can do hundreds of things, Bomberman has shown nothing but explosives. Not much uniqueness. Then again, Bomberman would fit n pretty well with the odd and strange cast of Brawl. Who wouldn't want a rematch between Wario and Bomberman? But then again... to see Megaman in the 3-D Brawl style would be AWESOME!

 

[HeroOfTime64]

Everybody seems to have migrated away from this thread. Even Wiseguy.

Anyway. I disagree with the whole 'Megaman is better than Bomberman' thing. Bomberman can be very unique. As evidenced by his latest incarnations.

But that's just opinion, I think that Megaman, Bomberman, and Sonic are the only third party characters that have a good, strong chance of getting in Brawl.

 

[jimmysilverrims]

I agree that everyone has seem to have left the thread, but I don't think that Bomberman can be unique ENOUGH. I mean, Megaman could use a sword, have projectiles, and perhaps even a copy ability. Amazing! Bomberman has... bombs, bombs, and, you guessed it, bombs. I don't think that Megaman should have a copy ability only because I can't see a way to show which character he has copied. He can't have Kirby-esque hats. Other than that I have little to say other than...

'Nuff said.

 

[Arteen]

Bomberman games have featured more than just the same generic explosive. He has super-powered red bombs and remote-activated bombs in Bomberman 64. He has a jetpack in Bomberman Hero. He has an array of elemental bombs in Bomberman 64: The Second Attack (fire, water, wind, lightning, earth, light, dark). He even has a whip in Bomberman GB.

Of course, he can also kick, drop, toss, and charge-toss bombs. He could probably use basic kick/punch moves for some of his A attacks. That's all I can think about off the top of my head, and from the limited amount of Bomberman games I've played. I think he could get a moveset just as well as any other character.

 

[raphtmarqui]

Bomberman = too generic

 

[jimmysilverrims]

Yeah, but in Brawl, I really don't see Bomberman using a whip when he's only used it in one game. And even though all of those bombs have individual flair, they're all still bombs. All have the same outcome: an explosion. Not much variety. Link can bomb and[I/] use a sword. Bomberman can only bomb. But, against what raphtmaqui said, I think that Bomberman can be differed from the other characters.

Don't get me wrong, I really like Bomberman, but I think that it's a bit of a toss up between him and Megaman. That and Bomberman is MIA from the VC, which is bad news for Bomberman fans.

But on a broader scale, there is a bit of a problem of finding third pary character that 'mascot' a company. Only Nintendo has been true to keeping Mario as a mascot. (Poor Crash, he was thrown away from Sony like yesterday's garbage.) and even Snake was a bit of a stretch. The only third party character I see 90% chance of getting in is Sonic (Who has been a faithful mascot to SEGA).

'Nuff said.

 

[Legolastom]

MM is Capcom's mascot and they are one of the biggest people in the industry.

 

[jimmysilverrims]

Exactly! But Hudson is big too. Like I said, It's a toss up between the two. Each have all the credentials, now who will make it in Brawl? Oi! Wise! A word to the, well... Wise, you should replace Simon with Bomberman, Simon may be badarse but we've already got Snake and Bomberman has seen more action that that schmuck! Plus, I can't se any more moves for him other than his whip. He doesnt seem to have as good a chance as the others. (See my handy, color-coded, chart)

 

[Arteen]

Yeah, but in Brawl, I really don't see Bomberman using a whip when he's only used it in one game.

Still, there's a lot of Bomberman games to pull non-explosive moves from. I've only played a handful (all the ones I mentioned, Bomberman Live, and another GB one), so that's all I could think of.

And even though all of those bombs have individual flair, they're all still bombs. All have the same outcome: an explosion. Not much variety. Link can bomb and[I/] use a sword. Bomberman can only bomb.

Still, all Captain Falcon does is punch and kick and grab (and he doesn't even do as much in his own games), and every character already does that anyway. Mario can punch and kick and throw fireballs. CF can only punch and kick. I think a moveset full of explosions could turn out to be very unique, varied and fun. Of course, I think Megaman has a better shot at making it in anyway.

 

[raphtmarqui]

Theres a ton of other better choices than Bomberman.