Prepare to be Astounded One Last Time: Wiseguy’s Brawl Predictions THE FINAL VERSION!

[Dark Sonic]

As a huge FE fan, I'm hoping for a second rep for the series. But for my first list, I was trying to keep all the series to their bare minimum. Hopefully my pessimism is unwarrented.

Considering that the roster still actually grew between Melee and Brawl, (though not as much as we had hoped) it's pretty reasonable to assume that a growing franchise would get at least the same number of reps as they had in melee. That being said, Marth is the most likely character to grab that spot. You could just put him on the list as highly likely or something.

1) Not if Takamaru has anything to say about it...

First of all, Takamaru is nowhere near as popular as Marth. Replacing Marth with him would be like Sakurai sticking a Giant Middle Finger at us. That poll was taken exclusively for new character additions, and pays no attention to returning vetrans at all. It's obvious that Takamaru would be higher than Marth on that poll, simply because he wasn't allowed on it in the first place. That is by no means grounds to say that Takamaru is anywhere near as popular as Marth. This is honestly one of the worst anti-Marth arguements out there, simply because Marth would clearly take priority over him and would actually keep Takamaru out of the game if anything, not the other way around.

 

[RegalBuster]

You killed your list and not in the good way, K.rool, Claus, macaiah and marth all should be on the main list.

 

[Pieman0920]

Bleh, the list got worse in my opinion. =[

In anycase, I disagree with Geno (especially calling him likely) but he's a Mario character, and wouldn't be with the third party reps, despite being third party himself. Freaky, no?

 

[Dark Sonic]

micaiah and marth all should be on the main list.

Fixed.

I'd expect 2 FE reps and a third seems possible. FE has 4 world wide games, soon to be 5 with Marth's remake (which also would make HIM the most recent FE Lord and the first FE Lord and the most reoccuring FE Lord. And yet you still don't think he's more likely than Takamaru?) It has 10 games in total, soon to be 11. I think it deserves at least two reps.

 

[Arteen]

I see that Isaac now has a permanent position on the roster. I'm glad you finally came to your senses, not to mention the removal of the AC character and the talking head.

One slight issue is that it is rumored (I don't recall ever actually seeing the quote) that Sakurai said that he wants to limit the amount of Japan-only characters. He already replaced Ness with Lucas, so I'm not sure that he would add both Claus and Takamaru. Also, I'm hesitant about the inclusion of Geno. I wouldn't be surprised if Marth and Falco appeared instead of Takamaru and Geno.

I consider myself a fan of Dark Samus and would love to see the character make it. But will those crazy Japanese see things the same way? They're the ones who insist on using the outdated Super Metroid Chozo suit instead of the far superior Metroid Prime version.

I want some decent Prime representation (I love the first Prime game even more than Super), but I do think that using the SM suit fits better with the æsthetic, for what it's worth.

4) Oh yeah? Well what what if I take that sentence and conveniently set it aside? In that case, my argument stands.

Hard to argue through that defense.

 

[raul]

Def like the revamped first post. I still have my agreements and disagreements, but who doesn't? Nice work.

 

[Zevox]

Only one Fire Emblem rep? Thats complete bull. Just the series' popularity in Japan alone was enough to get it two reps in Melee. For it to drop to one in Brawl after it has become an international franchise with moderate popularity outside of Japan is utterly unthinkable. Worst-case scenario is it gets stuck with only two again, and I'd argue that its quite probable for it to get three unless the roster is stuck in the mid-30s range total.

Your claim that Takamaru could impact Marth's return at all is equally foolish. They're completely different characters from completely different series. The only similarity is that they use a sword - and even then, the swords they use are different, Marth wielding the European-style long sword Falchion and Takamaru having a Japanese Katana. And please, don't even start with the claim that Takamaru being agile matters - theres no reason whatsoever Sakurai and co couldn't differentiate the two, especially considering we've already seen such done with Ike, who by his abilities in his own games should have been just a little slower and stronger than Marth, not a titan who is slower and stronger than Bowser the way he turned out.

Really, it seems like you tailored that flimsy argument just because you just don't wish to admit that Marth is almost surely back. Thats disappointing, considering you otherwise seem to be quite reasonable.

Zevox

 

[DeuceBlade]

Uh... K. rool?

this is a great prediction and fun to read (with the exception of the stuff wrote about KH/Sora)

 

[Thirdkoopa]

4) Claus

Happy now, thethirdkoopa?

Yes, I Am .
But seriously wiseguy i've been looking at this list for the past few months and i must say that you've done quite a good job but i'd say at least 2 FE Reps is worthy on the main roster if you ask me, And 3 SF Reps? And geno goes under the third-party section? I Liked the ACer...But YAY KAWASHIMA IS OFF.

If i had some changes to the list i would personally myself do this, However you've done a good job with it;
1.Put falco on (Can't remember if you had him on.)
2.Put marth on the main list and have michiah on the other one.
3.Put the ACer back on
4.Put geno in the mario catigory
5.Have sukapon and takamaru share a spot.
6.Take out midna and BJ Altogether...Hmm actually falco and ACer replacing midna and BJ Is my kind of cup of tea :D :D :D.

However nice work seriously, Most of it's pretty much correct (Not all but most.) So good job, It makes me want to start my own probability thread .

Oh and thanks for including claus! .

Forgot this but at the part were it was on diddy's profile about the "I'm not leaving you" I Lol'd hard at that :D.

 

[pcamtz]

I really like this final version, it turned out really nice. But I'm of the idea that 40 character roster is the most likely, so part 2B would be the ideal roster for me.

In fact... part 2B is the exact roster I'm hoping for!!!!

 

[RegalBuster]

I'd hate less than 40, with 45 being my ideal character amount. 50 would be great!

 

[Devastlian]

Heheh. I like the first one...just take out Geno and add Marth and...well, I don't know. It finally seems realistic, at least.

 

[Brawlmatt202]

Why is this the final version again? Also:

There is a perfectly logical reason why the Metroid Prime games don’t sell in Japan:
Japan sucks.

You know what? YOU SUCK! In addition, I didn't like Metroid Prime that much.

Also, the other comments are funny!

 

[MysticKenji]

Sadly, however, all appears are pointing to Zelda making a return as Zelda’s transformation.

Comments: Nothing much to say here, except that Kirby is all but guaranteed to be
underfed, which is great.

Huh?

Also, you still need to add Marth.

 

[Shadowbolt]

You kept Geno, so you get to live.

I kid, naturally. >_>

Seriously, Marth? What do you have against him?

 

[raphtmarqui]

Only one Fire Emblem rep? Thats complete bull. Just the series' popularity in Japan alone was enough to get it two reps in Melee. For it to drop to one in Brawl after it has become an international franchise with moderate popularity outside of Japan is utterly unthinkable. Worst-case scenario is it gets stuck with only two again, and I'd argue that its quite probable for it to get three unless the roster is stuck in the mid-30s range total.

Your claim that Takamaru could impact Marth's return at all is equally foolish. They're completely different characters from completely different series. The only similarity is that they use a sword - and even then, the swords they use are different, Marth wielding the European-style long sword Falchion and Takamaru having a Japanese Katana. And please, don't even start with the claim that Takamaru being agile matters - theres no reason whatsoever Sakurai and co couldn't differentiate the two, especially considering we've already seen such done with Ike, who by his abilities in his own games should have been just a little slower and stronger than Marth, not a titan who is slower and stronger than Bowser the way he turned out.

Really, it seems like you tailored that flimsy argument just because you just don't wish to admit that Marth is almost surely back. Thats disappointing, considering you otherwise seem to be quite reasonable.

Zevox

Completely agree with this post. Saying Takamaru will replace Marth is the most random no-basis thing I've ever heard in my life. And how the hell will a series go down in representatives in a game that has a bigger roster?
I would say this list is terrible but your inclusion of Isaac and removal of the ******** AC character gave you some points. I also agree with your stance on pointless generic villains like k.rool and black shadow.
So overall the list is decent. Though I also have a hard time believing neither Falco or Wolf will be in Brawl.

 

[Numa Dude]

1) Not if Takamaru has anything to say about it...

*Shoots own foot*

2) Maybe. He is third in line as a DK rep. Whether the series gets three reps, however, is open to debate.

Would you like me to rant on why the idea of reps fails AGAIN?

3) Let's face facts Numa: if a F-Zero villain gets in, it will be Black Shadow. Are you going to tell me that the lamest, most generic villian in the known universe should be put in Brawl just to add representation to the F-Zero franchise? I could come up with a list of another 40 characters who deserve a spot on the roster more.

First off Black Shadow has competition for the villain spot so don't say it's defenitley him (although I will admit he is very likely) and second, Just because you say he is generic does not affect his chances at all. Link has a generic silent hero personality and he is confirmed. Third I do not say that F-Zero is getting a villain just to add rep. I say F-Zero is getting a villain because villains will be neccesary in this game for subspace.

4) Oh yeah? Well what what if I take that sentence and conveniently set it aside? In that case, my argument stands.

*insert alot of dots here*

Farewell, folks. This exam isnt going to study for itself.

That reminds me, I've got a project on local culture to do.

 

[Tatanga4Brawl]

Final smashes and final exams! Is too much!

For Jigglypuff's final smash... ATTRACT!!!

 

[Ginger9001]

Final smashes and final exams! Is too much!

For Jigglypuff's final smash... ATTRACT!!!

I was thinking it would be like Peach's final smash or something. Like everyone just falls asleep and she can do whatever she wants with them. (I dunno, I'm sure Sakurai could come up with something more clever after they fall asleep....like draw markings on their face with a marker, damaging them. xD)

 

[XACE-K]

Your best list was list 2b because it had more characters and no Sora.

 

[DreamFiend633]

Still missing Lucario.

Jigglypuff's FS could either be uproar or sing. Uproar all she does is scream and do damage, but with sing, Jigglypuff could walk around for about 10 seconds while everyone is asleep and inflict damage with her regular moves but also with 10x the damage she usually does.

 

[Ginger9001]

Still missing Lucario.

Jigglypuff's FS could either be uproar or sing. Uproar all she does is scream and do damage, but with sing, Jigglypuff could walk around for about 10 seconds while everyone is asleep and inflict damage with her regular moves but also with 10x the damage she usually does.

Exactly! Or like I said for my idea, she draws on their face with a marker (Like she does in the show) and it does some crazy thing to them like damaging them and.....making them look completely ridiculous. xD

 

[Wiseguy]

Considering that the roster still actually grew between Melee and Brawl, (though not as much as we had hoped) it's pretty reasonable to assume that a growing franchise would get at least the same number of reps as they had in melee. That being said, Marth is the most likely character to grab that spot. You could just put him on the list as highly likely or something.

To be fair, I think Fire Emblem getting Roy as a second rep in Melee was an act of grace rather than a reflection of its importance. Even then, Fire Emblem wass a great with a long and rich history - but did it really deserve two characters when series like Metroid and Donkey Kong were left out to try. I would argue not. I suspect Roy was included because Marth's moveset lent itself well to a clone.

In my view, two FE reps would be perfect - regardless of whom it is. But surely you will conceed that if the roster is small enough, Ike could be solo. suppose the roster is 35 characters. Or thirty. Surely you admit that there are scenarios where this could happen. To me, 35-36 characters means Ike is solo. Any more Nintendo characters, and a second FE character is all but guaranteed. You may feel free to disagree.

First of all, Takamaru is nowhere near as popular as Marth. Replacing Marth with him would be like Sakurai sticking a Giant Middle Finger at us. That poll was taken exclusively for new character additions, and pays no attention to returning vetrans at all. It's obvious that Takamaru would be higher than Marth on that poll, simply because he wasn't allowed on it in the first place. That is by no means grounds to say that Takamaru is anywhere near as popular as Marth. This is honestly one of the worst anti-Marth arguements out there, simply because Marth would clearly take priority over him and would actually keep Takamaru out of the game if anything, not the other way around.

I agree that Marth is clearly the more popular. But popularity, while important, isn't everything.

With Ike in, Marth no longer has the weight of an entire franchise on his shoulders, while Takamaru would give representation to one of the loved forgotten series on yesteryear. Also, and a Saumerai, he he brings a much more unique pressense to the roster.

I see that Isaac now has a permanent position on the roster. I'm glad you finally came to your senses, not to mention the removal of the AC character and the talking head.

One slight issue is that it is rumored (I don't recall ever actually seeing the quote) that Sakurai said that he wants to limit the amount of Japan-only characters. He already replaced Ness with Lucas, so I'm not sure that he would add both Claus and Takamaru. Also, I'm hesitant about the inclusion of Geno. I wouldn't be surprised if Marth and Falco appeared instead of Takamaru and Geno.

The limting of Japn-onlies is a good point - but Mother 3 aside, I think including Takamu isn't going overboard. But yeah, I wouldn't be particularily surprised by a Marth/Falco return either.

Only one Fire Emblem rep? Thats complete bull. Just the series' popularity in Japan alone was enough to get it two reps in Melee. For it to drop to one in Brawl after it has become an international franchise with moderate popularity outside of Japan is utterly unthinkable. Worst-case scenario is it gets stuck with only two again, and I'd argue that its quite probable for it to get three unless the roster is stuck in the mid-30s range total.

Your claim that Takamaru could impact Marth's return at all is equally foolish. They're completely different characters from completely different series. The only similarity is that they use a sword - and even then, the swords they use are different, Marth wielding the European-style long sword Falchion and Takamaru having a Japanese Katana. And please, don't even start with the claim that Takamaru being agile matters - theres no reason whatsoever Sakurai and co couldn't differentiate the two, especially considering we've already seen such done with Ike, who by his abilities in his own games should have been just a little slower and stronger than Marth, not a titan who is slower and stronger than Bowser the way he turned out.

Really, it seems like you tailored that flimsy argument just because you just don't wish to admit that Marth is almost surely back. Thats disappointing, considering you otherwise seem to be quite reasonable.

Zevox

I already touched on the "one fire Emblem character" so I'll adress your second complaint: there being no reason why Sakurai couldn't differentiate between Marth and Takamaru.

At the root of the issue is the relationship between Ike's moveset and Marth. Obviously, Ike plays nothing like Marth in Melee - but things like his counter and his forward smash suggest to me that a DNA test would confirm that Marth was used as a template in his creation, before he was drastically altered. Basically, I'm saying that Ike is to Marth what Lucas is to Ness.

The problem with this, of course, is that (unlike Lucas and Ness) Ike makes a pretty poor Marth replacement. His play-style will likely not appeal to the majority of Marth mains as it shares very little in common with his predecessor.

That's where Takamaru comes if. That's not to say that his attacks would be at all similar to Marth (as you said: one has a
Falchion and the other a Katana) but that he could fill the role of speedy swordfighter with flowy, combo-able attacks. It seems to me that if both of those characters were in Brawl, Marth's moveset wouldn't that essential.

Obviously, Marth's status as the first and most prominet Fire Emblem lord should not be overlooked. This alone could guarantee his a spot irregardless of what they do with Takamaru. But if being one of the original 12 wasn't enough to secure Ness' inclusion then I would argue that Marth is by no means 100% safe.

Does this mean that my theory is the most likely, or only outcome possible? Heck no. It's a highly speculative theory that I'm throwing out there to see what people think. Is this just be being stubborn? Possibly. But then again, things would be pretty boring around here if we all agreed all the time.

Yes, I Am .
But seriously wiseguy i've been looking at this list for the past few months and i must say that you've done quite a good job but i'd say at least 2 FE Reps is worthy on the main roster if you ask me, And 3 SF Reps? And geno goes under the third-party section? I Liked the ACer...But YAY KAWASHIMA IS OFF.

If i had some changes to the list i would personally myself do this, However you've done a good job with it;
1.Put falco on (Can't remember if you had him on.)
2.Put marth on the main list and have michiah on the other one.
3.Put the ACer back on
4.Put geno in the mario catigory
5.Have sukapon and takamaru share a spot.
6.Take out midna and BJ Altogether...Hmm actually falco and ACer replacing midna and BJ Is my kind of cup of tea :D :D :D.

However nice work seriously, Most of it's pretty much correct (Not all but most.) So good job, It makes me want to start my own probability thread .

Oh and thanks for including claus! .

Forgot this but at the part were it was on diddy's profile about the "I'm not leaving you" I Lol'd hard at that :D.

Glad you enjoyed my list.

Thanks for the suggestions, koopa. The characters you suggested are all probable choices - but including them would mean removing other characters (my either/or choices before were kind of a cop out). I think I'll stick with these, and let the cards fall where they may.

As for Geno, does it really matter how you classify him? Depending on your perspective, he is either a Mario, retro or thrid party character.

I would totally encorage you to make your own prediction list, if you feel so inclined.

Why is this the final version again? Also:

I dunno, but I'll tell what isn't the reason: to create a shamelss promotional stunt that will get people to re-read my thread. Yep.

>_>

<_<

You know what? YOU SUCK! In addition, I didn't like Metroid Prime that much.

Also, the other comments are funny!

In retrospect, that like was in pretty poor taste. I've edited it out, and I apologize if it caused offense. Sorry.

Still, I find it distressing when my favorite non-Smash series is rejected in Nintendo's homeland.

You kept Geno, so you get to live.

I kid, naturally. >_>

Seriously, Marth? What do you have against him?

If the presence of Sheik on this list says anything, its that I won't deny a character a spot on my list based solely on the fact that I hate them.

Also, I don't hate Marth. Not since I learned that he will star in my most anticipated DS game: Fire Emblem DS!

Completely agree with this post. Saying Takamaru will replace Marth is the most random no-basis thing I've ever heard in my life.

Have you visited the Ashley thread recently?

And how the hell will a series go down in representatives in a game that has a bigger roster?
I would say this list is terrible but your inclusion of Isaac and removal of the ******** AC character gave you some points. I also agree with your stance on pointless generic villains like k.rool and black shadow.
So overall the list is pretty good.

Well, a bigger roster this time doesn't really make the competition any less fierce. Roy squeaked by conteneders likem Diddy and Wario in the last game, but now the outcry for their inclusion is stronger than ever. Plus, you've got new series like Pikmin and 3rd party reps like Sonic.[/QUOTE]

Would you like me to rant on why the idea of reps fails AGAIN?

Please do. It's been a while since you unleashed one of your rants. (You can wait until after you finish your project, naturally.)

First off Black Shadow has competition for the villain spot so don't say it's defenitley him (although I will admit he is very likely) and second, Just because you say he is generic does not affect his chances at all. Link has a generic silent hero personality and he is confirmed. Third I do not say that F-Zero is getting a villain just to add rep. I say F-Zero is getting a villain because villains will be neccesary in this game for subspace.

It's not just that I say he's generic. It's that NOBODY likes him. In my time on Smashboards, people either hate the character or don't care about him either way.

There's a reason there is no Black Shadow fanclub: he sucks utterly.

As for subspace, its more likely that he'll be a boss without being playable.

Still missing Lucario.

Dude, if one of my favorite series got 6 playable movesets I wouldn't be complaining. Just sayin.

 

[Thirdkoopa]

Glad you enjoyed my list.

Thanks for the suggestions, koopa. The characters you suggested are all probable choices - but including them would mean removing other characters (my either/or choices before were kind of a cop out). I think I'll stick with these, and let the cards fall where they may.

As for Geno, does it really matter how you classify him? Depending on your perspective, he is either a Mario, retro or thrid party character.

I Did indeed .

Hmm well i could see Falco Marth and ACer In over BJ And Midna but I See We'll see when the japanese release comes out.

IT's not how we classify him; It's how sakurai said "He will be first-party if included in" So..He does...But then again i get it .

Oh yeah i think i can get the thread done soon (Probably not today.) You'll have to come see it sometime -Midna and BJ And + Falco Marth and ACer is basically my dream roster But i'm glad you went with claus for a spot.

 

[raphtmarqui]

Have you visited the Ashley thread recently?

Lol, tru i guess.

Well, a bigger roster this time doesn't really make the competition any less fierce. Roy squeaked by conteneders likem Diddy and Wario in the last game, but now the outcry for their inclusion is stronger than ever. Plus, you've got new series like Pikmin and 3rd party reps like Sonic.

Well if thats the case and Ike were to be the only FE rep, then why have an FE stage that isn't specific to any FE world instead of having an FE9 specific stage (like Daein Castle or something).Or having FE music that doesn't originate form FE9. To me both these things clearly point to them wanting to represent multiple FE worlds at once.

 

[Wiseguy]

I Did indeed .

Hmm well i could see Falco Marth and ACer In over BJ And Midna but I See We'll see when the japanese release comes out.

IT's not how we classify him; It's how sakurai said "He will be first-party if included in" So..He does...But then again i get it .

Oh yeah i think i can get the thread done soon (Probably not today.) You'll have to come see it sometime -Midna and BJ And + Falco Marth and ACer is basically my dream roster But i'm glad you went with claus for a spot.

Cool. I'll look forward to reading it.

Well if thats the case and Ike were to be the only FE rep, then why have an FE stage that isn't specific to any FE world instead of having an FE9 specific stage (like Daein Castle or something).Or having FE music that doesn't originate form FE9. To me both these things clearly point to them wanting to represent multiple FE worlds at once.

Having a playable character is only one way to represent a franchise. Lyn, for example, represents FE7 as an AT. That might explain why the stage is so non-specific.

(Though, to be clear, I'm still holding out hope for a second FE character. See list 2B.)

 

[TheMagicalKuja]

I rather like your list. I was wondering what was up with the lack of WTF characters on your list but I remembered Takamaru's still there.

I dislike Olimar, but then again he still fits on the list.

Also good points on the Ike/Marth business.

 

[Zevox]

To be fair, I think Fire Emblem getting Roy as a second rep in Melee was an act of grace rather than a reflection of its importance. Even then, Fire Emblem wass a great with a long and rich history - but did it really deserve two characters when series like Metroid and Donkey Kong were left out to try. I would argue not. I suspect Roy was included because Marth's moveset lent itself well to a clone.

The reason why Roy was included is well-known - he was an advertisement. I'd argue you're wrong about it not deserving a second rep in Melee though. Obviously, it was a travesty that the DK series didn't get Diddy then, but with the game rushed as it was there wasn't really anything to be done there. Metroid also lacks many characters who could be in a game like Brawl, and had even fewer back when Melee was being made, before Dark Samus and the other hunters who have recently been introduced. Obviously there was a problem with Ridley (probably he was too complex to do in the little time they had, as the absence of his tail in the opening scene leads many to believe), so it got stuck with one. Also you should consider the rumor that Roy merely replaced Sigurd, who supposedly was going to be the Marth clone were it not for Roy needing advertising - an unconfirmed but perfectly plausible rumor.

I'd argue that all three of those series deserved two reps, and that you are correct that it is simply because it was easy to clone Marth to fit in another FE rep that it was the one to get it.

But surely you will conceed that if the roster is small enough, Ike could be solo. suppose the roster is 35 characters. Or thirty. Surely you admit that there are scenarios where this could happen. To me, 35-36 characters means Ike is solo. Any more Nintendo characters, and a second FE character is all but guaranteed. You may feel free to disagree.

I for most certainly do not concede any such thing. Fire Emblem is a very large series (10 games, nearly as many as Zelda and Pokèmon discounting remakes) which was a huge hit in Japan and is now a more moderate hit internationally. It was the series that literally started an entire genre of video games, tactical RPGs. As I said before, for Ike to be the only FE character on the roster is utterly unthinkable - as much so as removing Ganondorf or Luigi, or making Fox the only Star Fox character on the roster.

At the root of the issue is the relationship between Ike's moveset and Marth. Obviously, Ike plays nothing like Marth in Melee - but things like his counter and his forward smash suggest to me that a DNA test would confirm that Marth was used as a template in his creation, before he was drastically altered. Basically, I'm saying that Ike is to Marth what Lucas is to Ness.

Oh please, we've been over this before. Ike has more moves similar to Link than he does to Marth, and the only special move they share is a highly generic one that could be given not only to any sword wielder but to any weapon-wielder at all, so any claim that he was based on Marth is completely preposterous. Lucas on the other hand actually has all of Ness' special moves, in most cases almost unchanged, and in the case of the one "new" one the screens that we have indicate it functions almost the same as the move it replaces in terms of how it is used (PK Ice seems to be PK Flash plus freezing abilities). Theres a huge difference between the two.

The problem with this, of course, is that (unlike Lucas and Ness) Ike makes a pretty poor Marth replacement. His play-style will likely not appeal to the majority of Marth mains as it shares very little in common with his predecessor.

Again, Ike makes a poor Marth replacement for far more than move purposes. He simply is nowhere near as big of an icon of the series (first Lord, 3 games to his name, Melee veteran), nor as popular as Marth among Japanese fans and some "hardcore" (as Chronobound has called them) international fans, and likely to become such internationally as well once Fire Emblem DS makes it out.

Its not a matter of Marth's moves - the fact that Ike's are nowhere near his is simply more evidence that hes not replacing him. If it were just a matter of Marth's moves, I'd laugh at you privately for thinking Takamaru were replacing him there, but keep quiet and acknowledge it as a valid, if misguided from my point-of-view, opinion. Its a matter of Marth being the single best possible Fire Emblem rep for SSB, above even the confirmed Ike. Thats why I'm so adamant about this. Marth as a character would be foolish to remove in the same way Fox as a character would be foolish to remove. Would his moves live on? Sure - Falco proved that they could be put on someone else just fine in Melee. Could his franchise be represented by others? With Falco, Krystal, and Wolf around, sure. Would it make sense for those characters to replace him as the rep(s) for the series? Hells no. Same with Marth and Ike - Ike could represent FE, and someone else could have Marth's moves; but it would be completely foolish to work things that way rather than keep Marth around.

But then again, things would be pretty boring around here if we all agreed all the time.

True, but then again there are many other things we have to discuss and disagree on that make a lot more sense to argue about (Wolf vs Falco vs Krystal, presence or absence of Animal Crossing character, Young "Wind Waker" Link, new potential series such as Pikmin and Golden Sun, etc etc).

Zevox

 

[raphtmarqui]

Having a playable character is only one way to represent a franchise. Lyn, for example, represents FE7 as an AT. That might explain why the stage is so non-specific.

Oh, please. Don't even start with that more "more than one way to rep a franchise" crap. Nobody cares about Ats and bosses. We want our favorite characters playable.
Yea so you would be perfectly happy with a Captain Olmar Assist Trophy. >_<

 

[Copperpot]

I must say that I like your list 'compilation' a lot more than your last attempt. I'd address the Marth issue, but you've clearly stated your stance on the issue several times already.

I do have a couple questions, however:

1) You provide three different circumstances as to how the roster may unfold, but you never specify which one you're in favor of. If you had to pick one of your three lists, which would it be?

2) Like a lot of others, I'm very skeptical as far as why you persist with Takamaru. It's not so much that you compared him to Marth (which, frankly, I don't really care about). It's more-so that he's even there to begin with. A Japan-only character who's last appearance was almost 20 years ago? Nine hundred and ninety-nine out of one thousand American gamers wouldn't be able to pick him out of a crowd, and his series has displayed no signs of a revival.

You could say that his appearance would be for nostalgic reason's, but any gamer outside of Japan doesn't get that convenience. They can't even find out who he is if they take a liking to him, not until his game is released on the VC.

Also, one could argue that your take on the 'agile swordsman' niche has already been occupied by Pit, or Metaknight even. Call me an idiot for deeming Pit a swordsman, but I'll gladly point out that his blades are as long, if not longer, than Young Link's Kokiri Sword. If Young Link was classified as a swordsman, Pit should as well. Not to mention that Pit fights with them exclusively, with exception to his special moves (and an aerial or two), but Young Link, even Adult Link for that matter, didn't either.

3) I liked your idea of Ganondorf sporting a sword-based fighting style with magic attacks scattered about. Why did you decide to shy from that? You're so gung-ho on Twilight Princess getting its fill, but then you turn around and remove the more probable portion of Ganondorf's moveset (from a TP standpoint, at least).

 

[Pieman0920]

I think he went away from the sword moveset due to Ike. Being slower than Bowser does that I guess.=/

 

[Copperpot]

Understandable, but I hear a lot of hot debate over swordsman and magic users. For some reason, a combination of the two made me feel warm and fuzzy inside . . .

 

[Numa Dude]

I'M DONE!

Please do. It's been a while since you unleashed one of your rants. (You can wait until after you finish your project, naturally.)

First off the entire basis of the rep theory is completely idiotic. Why would Sakurai, a man who has no connection to any other series in the game besides Kirby show bias toward any of the series? He even hinted that he was trying to be as unbiased as possible by not putting in any more of his own series characters until now. Second, why would he flood a game that is supposed to be about all of Nintendo with a bunch of characters from only a couple of series? That goes against the entire idea of this being a game for Nintendo all stars especially when you consider the kinds of idiotic characters they would have to add for series who already have all of their most important characters but are thought to deserve more reps. Leave the playable spots to the important characters regardless if their series is small or not.

It's not just that I say he's generic. It's that NOBODY likes him. In my time on Smashboards, people either hate the character or don't care about him either way.

There's a reason there is no Black Shadow fanclub: he sucks utterly.

As for subspace, its more likely that he'll be a boss without being playable.

Must I quote the S-man again?

Asking only for popular characters to appear in Smash...doesn't get me excited

Sakurai could care less about popularity. Like I ranted about above, a character's importance comes before all else and since Black Shadow can be argued to be the main villain of the franchise he is a likely contender along with Pico and Deathborn.

 

[Thirdkoopa]

Cool. I'll look forward to reading it.

Yeah hopefully twomorrow i will have it done then i will link it on here .

Oh and to the FE Debate; Look WG I Can't really see FE Decreasing in numbers seeing how it has had international popularity, Even through you said you wouldn't edit it more i'd REALLY Suggest to put marth (And maybe sukapon share a spot with takamaru.) And ACer and Falco over midna and BJ (Ok the last choice about ACer And Falco was debateable.) Again would it REALLY Make much sence for sakurai to decrease the number of reps and toss out it's original number ? Just to give takamaru that moveset isn't even worth it, And before you shout "NESS?!?!?!?!" That choice was a "Logical" One revolved around Lucas and Claus and mother 3's insane sales inpact.

Could i see takamaru in? Yes, Could i see him replacing marth and FE Getting only one represenitive? Heck no, Again i could argue like Zevox and i could about it getting 3 Reps as it's very big to nintendo <_<...

 

[Shadowbolt]

Just a note, Marth could still return decently changed. Not only is he supposed to be a fencer, but he's supposed to have a magic shield with him.

 

[Wiseguy]

I rather like your list. I was wondering what was up with the lack of WTF characters on your list but I remembered Takamaru's still there.

I dislike Olimar, but then again he still fits on the list.

Also good points on the Ike/Marth business.

Dude, if you don't like Oliamr then you must not have played the Pikmin games. You should. Seriously.

The reason why Roy was included is well-known - he was an advertisement. I'd argue you're wrong about it not deserving a second rep in Melee though. Obviously, it was a travesty that the DK series didn't get Diddy then, but with the game rushed as it was there wasn't really anything to be done there. Metroid also lacks many characters who could be in a game like Brawl, and had even fewer back when Melee was being made, before Dark Samus and the other hunters who have recently been introduced. Obviously there was a problem with Ridley (probably he was too complex to do in the little time they had, as the absence of his tail in the opening scene leads many to believe), so it got stuck with one. Also you should consider the rumor that Roy merely replaced Sigurd, who supposedly was going to be the Marth clone were it not for Roy needing advertising - an unconfirmed but perfectly plausible rumor.

I'd argue that all three of those series deserved two reps, and that you are correct that it is simply because it was easy to clone Marth to fit in another FE rep that it was the one to get it.

I agree that Fire Emblem deserves two reps. That's why I included Miciaiah in my (not implausible) 40 character roster. I do, however, think that some characters are more worthy. Just as Diddy Kong or Wario should have (idealy) gotten in Melee over Roy, so too should characters like Ridley and Olimar get in over Marth/Miciaiah.

I for most certainly do not concede any such thing. Fire Emblem is a very large series (10 games, nearly as many as Zelda and Pokèmon discounting remakes) which was a huge hit in Japan and is now a more moderate hit internationally. It was the series that literally started an entire genre of video games, tactical RPGs. As I said before, for Ike to be the only FE character on the roster is utterly unthinkable - as much so as removing Ganondorf or Luigi, or making Fox the only Star Fox character on the roster.

I think this is where we disagree. While I agree that it would suck, I would rank it as slightly less unthinkable than removing Ganondorf or including Fox solo. If this were a wish list, you can bet I would include a second Fire Emblem PC in my first list, but I was trying (perhaps unsucessfully) to consider how Sakurai would balance the demands of his audience in a worst-case scenario of 36 characters.

Oh please, we've been over this before. Ike has more moves similar to Link than he does to Marth, and the only special move they share is a highly generic one that could be given not only to any sword wielder but to any weapon-wielder at all, so any claim that he was based on Marth is completely preposterous. Lucas on the other hand actually has all of Ness' special moves, in most cases almost unchanged, and in the case of the one "new" one the screens that we have indicate it functions almost the same as the move it replaces in terms of how it is used (PK Ice seems to be PK Flash plus freezing abilities). Theres a huge difference between the two.

I agree there is a big difference. With Lucas, they were clearly creating an obvious Ness replacement. With Ike, they were clearly trying something different. But I wouldn't say it's
preposterous to say that he was originally based on Marth, just unfounded (at the moment). It's a theory without evidence, not an impossibility.

Again, Ike makes a poor Marth replacement for far more than move purposes. He simply is nowhere near as big of an icon of the series (first Lord, 3 games to his name, Melee veteran), nor as popular as Marth among Japanese fans and some "hardcore" (as Chronobound has called them) international fans, and likely to become such internationally as well once Fire Emblem DS makes it out.

I was looking at it from the perspective of pure gameplay, but you do raise a valid point. Removing Marth would disappoint some fans. However, one could argue that the inclusion of Takamaru would be a nice conselation prize for Japanese gamers (perhaps he's not quite as popular as Marth in the country, but he still has his fans it seems) and that there are fans of Radiant Dawn (both in Japan and abroad) who would prefer Miciaiah as a second rep.

But, obviously, the popularity front is the clear downside to this theory. The upside, I would argue, is a more diverse roster of fighters.

Its not a matter of Marth's moves - the fact that Ike's are nowhere near his is simply more evidence that hes not replacing him. If it were just a matter of Marth's moves, I'd laugh at you privately for thinking Takamaru were replacing him there, but keep quiet and acknowledge it as a valid, if misguided from my point-of-view, opinion. Its a matter of Marth being the single best possible Fire Emblem rep for SSB, above even the confirmed Ike. Thats why I'm so adamant about this. Marth as a character would be foolish to remove in the same way Fox as a character would be foolish to remove. Would his moves live on? Sure - Falco proved that they could be put on someone else just fine in Melee. Could his franchise be represented by others? With Falco, Krystal, and Wolf around, sure. Would it make sense for those characters to replace him as the rep(s) for the series? Hells no. Same with Marth and Ike - Ike could represent FE, and someone else could have Marth's moves; but it would be completely foolish to work things that way rather than keep Marth around.

If you beleive that Marth is the best possible FE rep, then you're entirely right. However, the fact is that not everyone believes that. Before Ike's confirmation, there was a Ike vs. Marth poll thread on Smashboards which showed Ike to be the clearly more popular choice. It all comes down to where Sakurai and his crew stand on the issue.

Oh, please. Don't even start with that more "more than one way to rep a franchise" crap. Nobody cares about Ats and bosses. We want our favorite characters playable.
Yea so you would be perfectly happy with a Captain Olmar Assist Trophy. >_<

Well, there is a difference. Fire Emblem has one representative for sure, while the Pikmin series still needs a playable rep. Also, Olimar is the only character I can think of who is so unique, he's guanteed to make Brawl a better game.

I must say that I like your list 'compilation' a lot more than your last attempt. I'd address the Marth issue, but you've clearly stated your stance on the issue several times already.

I do have a couple questions, however:

1) You provide three different circumstances as to how the roster may unfold, but you never specify which one you're in favor of. If you had to pick one of your three lists, which would it be?

2) Like a lot of others, I'm very skeptical as far as why you persist with Takamaru. It's not so much that you compared him to Marth (which, frankly, I don't really care about). It's more-so that he's even there to begin with. A Japan-only character who's last appearance was almost 20 years ago? Nine hundred and ninety-nine out of one thousand American gamers wouldn't be able to pick him out of a crowd, and his series has displayed no signs of a revival.

You could say that his appearance would be for nostalgic reason's, but any gamer outside of Japan doesn't get that convenience. They can't even find out who he is if they take a liking to him, not until his game is released on the VC.

Also, one could argue that your take on the 'agile swordsman' niche has already been occupied by Pit, or Metaknight even. Call me an idiot for deeming Pit a swordsman, but I'll gladly point out that his blades are as long, if not longer, than Young Link's Kokiri Sword. If Young Link was classified as a swordsman, Pit should as well. Not to mention that Pit fights with them exclusively, with exception to his special moves (and an aerial or two), but Young Link, even Adult Link for that matter, didn't either.

3) I liked your idea of Ganondorf sporting a sword-based fighting style with magic attacks scattered about. Why did you decide to shy from that? You're so gung-ho on Twilight Princess getting its fill, but then you turn around and remove the more probable portion of Ganondorf's moveset (from a TP standpoint, at least).

1) Tough question. Obviously, it would come down to either 2A or 2B (the No Fun Edition List would be the bare minimum, the way I see it). I would probably go with 2B. Having iconic characters is swell, but at the end of the day Smash Bros is great because of its unique roster of fighters.

2) A decades old Japanese only swordfighter, eh? Sounds quite a bit like Marth to me. Noone outside Japan knew who he was at the time -but his inclusion in Melee resulted in Fire Emblem getting brought to our shores. How awesome wuld it be if Takamaru's inclusion in Brawl resulted in a new Nintendo character franchise?

As for Pit and Meta being agile swordsmen - I would agree with that. Sort of. They are more of their own subgroup: flying swordsman (great spped, great recovery, weak knockback). I think some players would still prefer a pure swordfighter who isn't slower than Bowser.

3) Well, with the inclusion of Issac (and, to a less extent, Sora and Claus) I sorta felt that I was overdoing it in the magic/swordfighting department. I still kinda prefer my earlier idea, though.

I'M DONE!
First off the entire basis of the rep theory is completely idiotic. Why would Sakurai, a man who has no connection to any other series in the game besides Kirby show bias toward any of the series? He even hinted that he was trying to be as unbiased as possible by not putting in any more of his own series characters until now. Second, why would he flood a game that is supposed to be about all of Nintendo with a bunch of characters from only a couple of series? That goes against the entire idea of this being a game for Nintendo all stars especially when you consider the kinds of idiotic characters they would have to add for series who already have all of their most important characters but are thought to deserve more reps. Leave the playable spots to the important characters regardless if their series is small or not.

While I still think that some series deserve more playable reps than others, I wouldn't say my list floods the roster with characters from one of two franachises. In fact, much of the roster is made up of characters from new franchises like Takamaru, Issac & Olimar.

Looking at it differently, let's say a character's series of origin didn't matter at all. Let's judge the characters based solely on their own merits. By this standard, your boy K. Rool looks even less likely because he isn't a terribly unique addition in either his personality or his potential moveset. Comparing him to characters like Claus, Bowser Jr. and Midna he doesn't strike me as a very interestin PC.

Must I quote the S-man again?

Sakurai could care less about popularity. Like I ranted about above, a character's importance comes before all else and since Black Shadow can be argued to be the main villain of the franchise he is a likely contender along with Pico and Deathborn.

1) Once again, the key word in that sentence is "Only". As in, he'll include popular characters - just not ONLY popular characters. That's a big difference from saying that popularity doesn't matter at all. Also, "doesn't get me excited" isn't the same as "I'll, never, ever do that." Just sayin.

2) There is a difference between a character like Pico, who is cool and underapreciated, and Black Shadow who no one (at all) likes even a little. This is becuase there is no redeaming features about the character. He is just plain lame. LAME!

If I beleived for a second that any other F-Zero character stood a shot, I'd include them in a heartbeat. But I just can't see it.

 

[Arteen]

You need to fix your description of Isaac. His name is spelled 'Isaac,' not 'Issac.' Also, Nintendo owns the rights to the character (and music), not Camelot.

 

[raphtmarqui]

Also, Olimar is the only character I can think of who is so unique, he's guanteed to make Brawl a better game.

Ok, thats just your own opinion. Not fact. I think you over-exaggerate Olimar's "uniqueness". He can summon things. Big woop. So can Dedede. You know what? Heres my new theory:
Olimar can't be in Brawl because Dedede is taking his spot as the minion summoner.
Thats what you sound like to us when you say Takamaru will replace Marth. >_>

 

[ParamoreRiot]

Awesome list.

And yes, us Ridley fans can be "enthusiastic".

xD

I also love that you see the fact that Sora DOES have a chance to be playable. Not to mention its a good business move against Sony.

 

[Zevox]

Just a note, Marth could still return decently changed. Not only is he supposed to be a fencer, but he's supposed to have a magic shield with him.

True, though since his legendary weapon, Falchion, is a long sword instead of a rapier, I doubt he'd get a fencing-style move set, I wouldn't be surprised to see the Fire Emblem added to him in some way.

I agree that Fire Emblem deserves two reps. That's why I included Miciaiah in my (not implausible) 40 character roster. I do, however, think that some characters are more worthy. Just as Diddy Kong or Wario should have (idealy) gotten in Melee over Roy, so too should characters like Ridley and Olimar get in over Marth/Miciaiah.

Ridley, perhaps. Olimar over Micaiah, but definitely not Marth. Personally, if I were to make a roster this size, I'd remove Isaac and Takamaru for Marth and Falco or Wolf - perhaps keep one of the two and leave out Falco or Wolf, but thats debatable. (Honestly, I don't truly expect Isaac to be in unless the roster size exceeds 40 even though I'm a big fan of his, so I certainly wouldn't put him as a must-have character on a roster that bare-bones, and I'm pretty shocked you did even though you know little about him by your own admission.)

The other thing here is, you keep bringing up Micaiah, but she isn't even close to comparable to Marth. Radiant Dawn hasn't even broken 150k in sales in Japan yet, making it the worst-selling Fire Emblem to date over there, and Micaiah is quite far from the most popular character in it (Chronobound found a poll on a Japanese site a while back about that, which had Mia as #1, Ike as #2, and Micaiah all the way down at #11 [if memory serves - she may have been a bit lower, but I'm all but sure she was in double digits]). Shes also not exactly resoundingly loved internationally either, and in any event with how recently the game came out, international opinion isn't going to get her into the game. Her only hope for being in from what I can see is if she was pre-decided to be a Radiant Dawn add, and Sakurai & co don't choose to remove her now that the delay has made that a near-futile gesture.

I think this is where we disagree. While I agree that it would suck, I would rank it as slightly less unthinkable than removing Ganondorf or including Fox solo. If this were a wish list, you can bet I would include a second Fire Emblem PC in my first list, but I was trying (perhaps unsucessfully) to consider how Sakurai would balance the demands of his audience in a worst-case scenario of 36 characters.

Definitely where we disagree, then, because I'd certainly put it at that unthinkable. In a worst-case scenario of 35-36 characters, I still have absolutely no doubts Fire Emblem will definitely get a second character, and theres no one who could possibly oust Marth from being that character.

I agree there is a big difference. With Lucas, they were clearly creating an obvious Ness replacement. With Ike, they were clearly trying something different. But I wouldn't say it's preposterous to say that he was originally based on Marth, just unfounded (at the moment). It's a theory without evidence, not an impossibility.

What more evidence could there be? Save for his throws, we know Ike's entire move set. Short of Sakurai coming out and telling us how each characters' moves were designed, we're not getting anything else. Given that, a theory with no evidence to back it up at this point is a theory with no legs to stand on.

If you beleive that Marth is the best possible FE rep, then you're entirely right. However, the fact is that not everyone believes that. Before Ike's confirmation, there was a Ike vs. Marth poll thread on Smashboards which showed Ike to be the clearly more popular choice. It all comes down to where Sakurai and his crew stand on the issue.

Think about that for a moment: there was a poll on an English-speaking internet forum asking whether members would prefer a character from a game that has been released internationally or a character from a game that has not who was featured in an unrelated game that was. Of course Ike is going to win in that scenario - casual international FE players with no knowledge of Marth outside of his Melee appearance vastly outnumber "hardcore" players who have ported his game or educated ones who have researched it enough to know his role in the series as a whole. Give the same poll once FE:DS has been around as long as PoR has and you'll quite possibly get the reverse result, and I guarantee you you'd get the reverse result if the poll were given on a Japanese forum.

What it comes down to is that Sakurai & co are very much so aware of Marth's popularity in Japan and role in the series (because, like everyone in Japan, they've witnessed both firsthand), and given that its unthinkable they'd turn him down, especially after he was already in Melee after being its #11 most-requested newcomer. Seriously, how you could ignore this and yet argue Takamaru should be allowed in is beyond me, since hes in a similar position, except that unlike Marth he isn't a member of a major ongoing series and hasn't ever been in anything released internationally.

Ok, thats just your own opinion. Not fact. I think you over-exaggerate Olimar's "uniqueness". He can summon things. Big woop. So can Dedede. You know what? Heres my new theory:
Olimar can't be in Brawl because Dedede is taking his spot as the minion summoner.
Thats what you sound like to us when you say Takamaru will replace Marth. >_>

Accurate and witty to the last. I agree.

Zevox