PPMD's Falco Discussion Thread

[MambaGreenFalco]

Hey PP long time no talk hope you're doing well,

Is there a difference in sh against falcon in neutral depending on whether you're facing him or not in order to access laser? Because if you are turned around against falcon then you are threatening your best defensive options against his nair with sh bair and up tilt. But if you're facing forward then I feel like you have to do something awkward like a high sh drift in dair or something. Is the answer to just back up slightly with a half dash back and then bair or laser out of that?

Once you've established this defense against falcon, how do you go about moving in on him without fully swinging in? Dash in pivot bair? Is sh fade in autocancel bair good?

What's the difference in up tilting vs bairing against an incoming falcon nair? Will bair lead to anything if the falcon is in knock down percent? Or will that only really happen if you laser reset their mistech? IIRC bair beats nair more cleanly more frequently but I could be wrong about that.

If you dash back against Falcon's nair how do you deal with their jabs afterwards? Let's say after you dash back you're at a range where you won't get hit by the jabs but if you move in slightly then you will.

Do you think wd forward jab is a viable option to stuff falcon's jump whereas your sh in at that range might get beat out?

 

[Dr Peepee]

Facing direction matters because of what you threaten. If you're SH'ing in place, then you don't threaten too much with SH in place once you can't beat his moves with Nair/Dair since it takes a bit to get laser out. So backwards SH in place, especially when spaced, is often better. You can just turnaround laser if you need your back to Falcon you don't have to dash, but the dash can be useful. No need to always do anything though.

Dash forward laser in place is another option in addition to what you listed. The SH fade in AC Bair can be good but a lot of players look to punish it so be mindful of spacing and conditioning when doing it.

Bair is more likely to beat Nair but both work well. Utilt is faster but requires better timing sometimes. Bair leads to stuff if Falcon doesn't slideoff or DI away and tech in place etc so it can depend a lot. Might be worth testing different percents and positions if you're curious for more specifics.

SH mid/late Bair is one answer as is turnaround laser. You could also dash away again and then dash back in SH aerial or laser, etc. You could also wait and followup on what he does after jabbing or after whatever he does after landing.

WD jab doesn't strike me as reliable since Falcon could jump over it and is often spaced too far for it. It's also quite slow. You could test it though if you like it.

 

[Yort]

Dr Peepee
https://youtu.be/OuWzuAh8nfM?t=71
https://youtu.be/OuWzuAh8nfM?t=26
How come you do this dash sh shine double jump away approach in the above clips rather than doing delayed aerial shine pressure vs ice climbers? If he was faster with his full hop up air wouldn't it hit you?

https://youtu.be/OuWzuAh8nfM?t=14
How come you do this shine instant full hop shield pressure here if icies can full hop up air you oos as seen above?

https://youtu.be/OuWzuAh8nfM?t=75
Did you react to the back up climbers blizzard here and double jump away or did you double jump away preemptively when you realized he might blizzard with nana? I think I just realized something, did you see him roll away and recognize that climbers like to do the blizzard desync set up with nana here and jump away expecting that?

Could you tell me the difference in utility between these two set ups:
laser in place > slight dash forward > slight dash back > laser in place versus laser in place > slight dash forward > wavedash back > laser in place

Do you ever do approaching laser downtilt to beat someone who wavedashes after the first laser stun?

Do you have any advice for players who are struggling at recognizing minute spacing situations? For example, if I do approaching laser and i'm slightly out of shine range and then shine anyways and get hit; should I just focus on only this in some sessions and work my way up from there?

 

[Dr Peepee]

Hiya

Well in the second you can see it hits nana so that's pretty good. Also in general the tactic is good because ICs are usually tunnel visioning on the shield grab so their reaction to your jump away is delayed. I like it because it can hit them but it can also give depth to your SH in.

I believe I was trying to dodge a Bair OOS and also punish if I hit nana, which looked likely at the time I guess. Shine FH in general I used to like a lot more since it helped you dodge a lot of counters OOS and also helped you punish, but I don't prefer it now.

It's more likely here that I expected blizzard and jumped a bit pre-emptively due to what you said. In general doing this tactic vs cornered opponents is pretty good though since you can feel out what they'd do and safely counter rolls toward center etc.

The wavedash pushes you farther away and puts you in more lag, but overall it's safer. The first is mostly about faking in place while the other could be used to back up if you expect a counter or just wants to mess with giving up stage, or you need to give up stage if an opponent is too close, etc.

Not too commonly, but yeah I do recall doing that occasionally at kill or combo percents on Dtilt. It has advantages as well in that you can laser or WD out of crouch if you do crouch early, or FH if you need to in some matchups. Being crouched and incorrect, as well as being in range to punish their WD lag while they still go for it, is relatively difficult to set up in many circumstances I find. Vs ICs it's less of an issue of course.

Well it's something you want to correct to make your tool work, but it wouldn't take an entire session to fix. You just try to hit shield or their body if they come OOS from various spacings, and 20XX helps make this consistent, and then see where you're lacking. Doing the same approaches or movements you do in tourney is a good way to get the exact results. Then if you adjust in your practice, you want to practice your new adjustment for tourney. It's pretty important though as this is an approach tool, so it's worth spending time on. Practicing any approach option to be sure it works is good, just as well as any defensive option. Hard to say more than this without more information.

 

[MambaGreenFalco]

Facing direction matters because of what you threaten. If you're SH'ing in place, then you don't threaten too much with SH in place once you can't beat his moves with Nair/Dair since it takes a bit to get laser out. So backwards SH in place, especially when spaced, is often better. You can just turnaround laser if you need your back to Falcon you don't have to dash, but the dash can be useful. No need to always do anything though.

Dash forward laser in place is another option in addition to what you listed. The SH fade in AC Bair can be good but a lot of players look to punish it so be mindful of spacing and conditioning when doing it.

Bair is more likely to beat Nair but both work well. Utilt is faster but requires better timing sometimes. Bair leads to stuff if Falcon doesn't slideoff or DI away and tech in place etc so it can depend a lot. Might be worth testing different percents and positions if you're curious for more specifics.

SH mid/late Bair is one answer as is turnaround laser. You could also dash away again and then dash back in SH aerial or laser, etc. You could also wait and followup on what he does after jabbing or after whatever he does after landing.

WD jab doesn't strike me as reliable since Falcon could jump over it and is often spaced too far for it. It's also quite slow. You could test it though if you like it.

I've recently realized that I exclusively play offense against marth. I really don't play defense at all. It feels like there's no way to play passively while holding stage against marth without getting swung at. The risk reward of playing some mixup of moving back to avoid a swing in somehow feels worse than the risk reward of moving forward when in reality you're much more likely to get grabbed playing an offensive mixup. I think this is also because it feels hard to get meaningful openings while playing defense against marth (except maybe dairing their DA) whereas marth can still catch laser/dash back with DA or get nair grab or fair grab. Also the tools that are commonly associated with Falco's dash back; bair, u tilt, cc shine aren't really as useful against marth. I know bair can be good against marth's nair but if I'm dashing back then I'm normally putting myself at tipper spacing/just outside of it. Do you have to move backwards to play defense against marth's sh/fh aerials? Do you think falco has to skew towards offense a bit more against marth? Is getting in his face and shielding a viable mixup to add depth to moving forward? If I'm moving backwards and have the choice between shielding an incoming swing, is it always better to avoid the move rather than to shield it?

 

[Dr Peepee]

It's kind of weird because from both ends it can be hard to get in. Especially if Falco makes use of that mid height laser that beats run and SH and you can also jump over if he PS'. But besides that, it's still pretty difficult for Marth to fully get in. If you're backed up a bit then he has to take a while to get in if you're shooting quickly, and those closer spacings give you better opportunities to approach as well. Also when I play defense, I like doing so by faking going in so he can never be too sure about coming in against me. If you do want to play regular defense, I suggest dashing back at around the tip of Marth's DA range or otherwise using WD away to move back or even SH away so you can turnaround laser or something. Otherwise just watch for his DA/Nair in and you can hold down vs DA or shield both(may need to run up a bit) and punish then. I'm sure playing around with some of this will be useful.

 

[peedy]

Does Falco's fast fall affect his laser height? Not sure if it makes a difference if he laser's before or after fast fall. The reason why I'm wonder is because I know most players (myself included) listen to the sound of the laser in order to power shield. I was wondering by the audio clues you could determine the laser height by looking at where his is during his short hop

 

[MambaGreenFalco]

Does Falco's fast fall affect his laser height? Not sure if it makes a difference if he laser's before or after fast fall. The reason why I'm wonder is because I know most players (myself included) listen to the sound of the laser in order to power shield. I was wondering by the audio clues you could determine the laser height by looking at where his is during his short hop

Yeah the ff timing does matter, he actually has 15 different laser heights https://external-preview.redd.it/nw...bp&s=eace182dd64543a75e0aaaa4ad1d492461ab60c1

Not sure if you can tell the height by the combination of the sound and visual combined but that would be really cool if you could so I'll look into it a bit. I'm going to guess that it doesn't really work for the ranges that matter in the falco ditto. For example I guess it would be most useful if you wanted to know if your opponent does sh high laser to snipe your own sh laser when you're both in threat range but that's an unreactable mixup.

 

[MambaGreenFalco]

It's kind of weird because from both ends it can be hard to get in. Especially if Falco makes use of that mid height laser that beats run and SH and you can also jump over if he PS'. But besides that, it's still pretty difficult for Marth to fully get in. If you're backed up a bit then he has to take a while to get in if you're shooting quickly, and those closer spacings give you better opportunities to approach as well. Also when I play defense, I like doing so by faking going in so he can never be too sure about coming in against me. If you do want to play regular defense, I suggest dashing back at around the tip of Marth's DA range or otherwise using WD away to move back or even SH away so you can turnaround laser or something. Otherwise just watch for his DA/Nair in and you can hold down vs DA or shield both(may need to run up a bit) and punish then. I'm sure playing around with some of this will be useful.

Is that laser viable to consistently learn? I've tried practicing it before and I wasn't even sure how to do that. Is marth's crouch height the same as his dash height?

Do you have to play regular defense as a mixup to playing defense while threatening going in to add more depth to that threat range? Or can you just get away with mostly threatening playing the mixup from that range? Are those two ranges easily identifiable for the marth? How does marth close space against falco without fully committing to an approach?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zrP8NEBXpno&

At 5:18 after I hit those 2 lasers was that sh laser forward good? Looks like I tried to setup for turn around up tilt if he drifted in. At that far diagonal range what position are you looking to get into ideally and how can you do it from there? Is getting under the puff one of the best positions for falco in the matchup? Could you also try to setup dash in pivot bair at that range?

At 5:29 after I hit those 2 lasers how should I have approached that position? Puff still has a ton of mixups in that situation so when she does have all those jumps do you just prefer to play it safe and take the ground? Seeing as he ff pounded in dropping through the platform does seem good against that and you get to cover the ledge.

At 5:53 when I do that full hop, what is it covering and threatening?

At 6:00 I got pounded. Should I have just gone to the ground earlier or fallen through with bair instead? Is the platform position against a puff offstage bad or is the ground simply preferable?

At 6:07 I nair into the wding puff. What is falco's best option against that? Super late aerials seem ideal there but then that defeats the purpose of the aerial. A similar position happens again at 7:16 where the puff drifted back after getting lasered and then shields and I get grabbed for nairing in.

At 6:15 when the puff is camping bairs do you think getting on the side plat is good to shoot her? OR should you just stay grounded? Is mixing up dash lengths and pivot bairs the best way to push in on space when they're retreating diagonally with bairs like that?

At 6:16 the puff drifts in with diagonal nair, that's his main approach and I'm not too sure what to do about it. Should I be standing with my back turned more to threaten u tilt and bair?

At 6:19 when I hit that high laser what do you do if you know they're gonna do that jump drift forward fair? Turn around to cover them coming in and then full bair if they do do that?

At 6:50 the puff is in an edgeguard position. Was my full hop dj bair good there? I think it made him go to ledge but he probably could have hit me out of the full hop. Is forcing the puff low like that good? If they're below the ledge like that is the ideal position for falco to be on the ledge so you can dj dair them? Or can you just stay on stage and threaten sh dair or down angled f tilt?

At 7:05 my sh laser in gets baired. One general rule I've come up with for falco is that lasering in is super good if you hit the laser but otherwise nair is more likely to hit. At that tempo of dash back what could I have done instead?

At 7:14 after I hit that laser is the defensive sh dair I do good? What was it covering? Can puff just space bair on that sh dair everytime?

At 7:27 was that lasering covering anything important? Should I have just already been prepared with my back turned to defend against him coming in?

The side plat position happens again at 7:30 so I think I just have to fall through bair more.

At 7:52 what did that full hop threaten and cover?

At 8:20 I do another full hop bair, which really doesn't seem good cause it just gave puff the ledge for free. If the position was like this https://imgur.com/37E3G59 how do you edeguard that? (I realize how broad a question that is lol). This position happens at 8:42 so could you break that instance down for me as well?

iirc you had a few exchanges with yort about edgeguarding puff over the summer so I'll go search those out.

At 8:32 I get naired again, the puff really isn't converting off of the nairs but he does get the ground which is frustrating.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2W-6iTKQe3o

At 1:16 he full hops over my laser, what are falco's options in that position?

At 2:38 after I hit that laser can I just crouch to cc if they dash attack and then punish if they f tilt? What other options are viable there?

At 2:57 after I hit that laser in close range he jabs me. Is the only way to deal with that to dash back and then play a mixup there? Is my own jab viable there or should it be used sparingly cause they can just shield?

Against sheik at full threat range after you hit a laser what's the difference between sh instant nair in and sh mid nair (ff and no ff)?

When you're in the corner on fod what should falco be looking to do? Should you be fighting your way out of the corner or playing patient and waiting for an opening? I normally tend to just full hop and then play some mixup there but I want to find a gameplan in the corner that's more grounded so i can mixup between the two. I think i rely on laser a lot in the corner and the side plats mess that up unless you want to put yourself right next to the edge and laser there but then at that point it's probably just better to grab ledge and then ledgedash or double laser.

Thanks so much PP

 

[Dr Peepee]

His crouch height is lower than his dash height. It's something you could do in 20XX where you replay a laser then have Marth dash or SH into it and see what happens. If it hits both you found the laser.

If they never think you're playing defense, they won't respect attempts at it. How much defense you play is up to you. If you just back up one dash and laser in place, then they expect that. If you dash retreating laser away, it sends a different message, etc. Marth can close space by dashing into laser if you're doing two back to back, or dash/run even closer if you're putting time between lasers.

You couldn't hit the laser so not the best lag to be in. You could WD in so you could FH Bair or SH DJ Bair or dash pivot Bair sure. Being diagonally under Puff is best, especially when she can't dodge rising Bair.

You can dash FH to get over her and Dair if she comes in, you can turn around and prep for Bair or WD off DJ Bair. I wouldn't go low because then she could go over you, but you could drop through the platform and DJ Bair or Dair in some situations if you wanted to. Staying on platform is good, and setting up Bair or some lasers if you think she will wait or Dair or Utilt is good.

You're covering her air jumping into you. It's not threatening much with that drift besides a falling laser I guess.

I think Bair might have hit if you drifted in a little more.

Late aerial is also good vs shield, so you're basically doing late aerials to beat shield or WD and early or mid aerials to beat jumps. You could laser forward as well if you wanted. If you're that close you could run up grab or something, or SH backward and Bair or turnaround laser.

Sure you can do that.

You were already standing so yeah Utilt works or dash Bair can work.

Sure or you can dash back then full SH laser in, or dash in pivot Bair maybe, or dash in and wait and then hit them, etc.

Bad Bair since she was already drifting away before you did it. FH'ing out was okay though. Forcing her high or low or back is fine because it makes her use jumps, which makes things harder for her and easier for you. Being on edge to DJ Dair is fine, and so is Dair, Ftilt, or Dsmash on stage. If you're on stage she could hit you since you're not invincible and also drift back more against Dair/Ftilt or go lower against Dsmash. If you're on edge she has to drift farther out to avoid Dair. She can also tech in both situations. You could've hit if she jumped up hugging the wall in both situations.

Dash forward laser in place, dash forward wait then dash in Dair her landing lag or laser her landing lag. Those are some good aggressive options, but you could also play more passively and let her try to DA or something and hit her.

It was more of a slightly forward Dair which is not so defensive as a retreating one. I think you may have been able to get a dash immediate Nair there. That Dair isn't likely to work because most Puffs drift back there to avoid getting hit.

Those lasers did you little good. Mayyybe the first forced a jump and the second made puff think it was free to come in since you didn't seem to be covering the air, but I don't think that's what you were going for. Preparing for Bair will make her move different so watch for that and be ready to mix both up.

Same answer as other FH.

You can fake with SH off or sometimes DJ off to make her drift back, you can laser to control which ways she goes, you can stay turned around to force her to outspace or go around you. You have to make her move it's not a she does this you do that and win thing. It takes more steps.



Dash FH Shine at this percent but you could aerial at later percents. You could turn around and FH Bair if Sheik drifts in like this. If Sheik drifts away it's different though.

Sure you could crouch there but if Sheik jumps you might not like the position so much.

You could Dtilt or Ftilt or jab yourself there, or mixup with grab or SH in place to dodge and hit her jab or dash back and play it that way.

The non-FF versions reach her but the others don't in my view. I think TR is probably farther than you do.

Laser, dash FH, FH in place, yolo aerial out, fake some of these with dash, dash forward laser in place or back up laser in place, and waiting and some of your main options here. Occasionally you can use the side platform too but it depends. Being cornered on FoD is tough.

 

[MambaGreenFalco]

His crouch height is lower than his dash height. It's something you could do in 20XX where you replay a laser then have Marth dash or SH into it and see what happens. If it hits both you found the laser.

If they never think you're playing defense, they won't respect attempts at it. How much defense you play is up to you. If you just back up one dash and laser in place, then they expect that. If you dash retreating laser away, it sends a different message, etc. Marth can close space by dashing into laser if you're doing two back to back, or dash/run even closer if you're putting time between lasers.

You couldn't hit the laser so not the best lag to be in. You could WD in so you could FH Bair or SH DJ Bair or dash pivot Bair sure. Being diagonally under Puff is best, especially when she can't dodge rising Bair.

You can dash FH to get over her and Dair if she comes in, you can turn around and prep for Bair or WD off DJ Bair. I wouldn't go low because then she could go over you, but you could drop through the platform and DJ Bair or Dair in some situations if you wanted to. Staying on platform is good, and setting up Bair or some lasers if you think she will wait or Dair or Utilt is good.

You're covering her air jumping into you. It's not threatening much with that drift besides a falling laser I guess.

I think Bair might have hit if you drifted in a little more.

Late aerial is also good vs shield, so you're basically doing late aerials to beat shield or WD and early or mid aerials to beat jumps. You could laser forward as well if you wanted. If you're that close you could run up grab or something, or SH backward and Bair or turnaround laser.

Sure you can do that.

You were already standing so yeah Utilt works or dash Bair can work.

Sure or you can dash back then full SH laser in, or dash in pivot Bair maybe, or dash in and wait and then hit them, etc.

Bad Bair since she was already drifting away before you did it. FH'ing out was okay though. Forcing her high or low or back is fine because it makes her use jumps, which makes things harder for her and easier for you. Being on edge to DJ Dair is fine, and so is Dair, Ftilt, or Dsmash on stage. If you're on stage she could hit you since you're not invincible and also drift back more against Dair/Ftilt or go lower against Dsmash. If you're on edge she has to drift farther out to avoid Dair. She can also tech in both situations. You could've hit if she jumped up hugging the wall in both situations.

Dash forward laser in place, dash forward wait then dash in Dair her landing lag or laser her landing lag. Those are some good aggressive options, but you could also play more passively and let her try to DA or something and hit her.

It was more of a slightly forward Dair which is not so defensive as a retreating one. I think you may have been able to get a dash immediate Nair there. That Dair isn't likely to work because most Puffs drift back there to avoid getting hit.

Those lasers did you little good. Mayyybe the first forced a jump and the second made puff think it was free to come in since you didn't seem to be covering the air, but I don't think that's what you were going for. Preparing for Bair will make her move different so watch for that and be ready to mix both up.

Same answer as other FH.

You can fake with SH off or sometimes DJ off to make her drift back, you can laser to control which ways she goes, you can stay turned around to force her to outspace or go around you. You have to make her move it's not a she does this you do that and win thing. It takes more steps.



Dash FH Shine at this percent but you could aerial at later percents. You could turn around and FH Bair if Sheik drifts in like this. If Sheik drifts away it's different though.

Sure you could crouch there but if Sheik jumps you might not like the position so much.

You could Dtilt or Ftilt or jab yourself there, or mixup with grab or SH in place to dodge and hit her jab or dash back and play it that way.

The non-FF versions reach her but the others don't in my view. I think TR is probably farther than you do.

Laser, dash FH, FH in place, yolo aerial out, fake some of these with dash, dash forward laser in place or back up laser in place, and waiting and some of your main options here. Occasionally you can use the side platform too but it depends. Being cornered on FoD is tough.

All of your points there make sense to me. But do you think I'm asking the right questions?

A reaaaaally long time ago you made a post explaining how it's possible to evolve your playstyle significantly in a matchup based on one video by looking beyond what what you could have done instead and asking yourself how could they opponent react to my adaptation? Do you have any advice for pursuing that type of analysis and do you have you had any more thoughts about that type of analysis in general?

Here's the paragraph from 2011 lol

"I have always said that I watched videos and thought about Melee on my own a ton+experimented a lot to get to where I am today. But specifics are always nice. I would watch a video of mine, take every instance I got hit and attempt to understand why I got hit and what I could do to fix it. Usually it boiled down to me trying to punish something I couldn't at a certain spacing or getting into bad patterns based on limited matchup knowledge or just not having enough confidence/flow in my game. Melee is almost always about fixing situations I messed up in(trying to Nair into Sheik's run off Fair from a platform at slightly too far spacing) and how I can condition the opponent to make the same ones work in my favor(WD OOS makes Hbox's Bair traps much more manageable because he has to adjust his spacing as a very basic example) or how I can avoid some altogether(Nair closer to Marth so he can't shield grab as easily or something) to me. If I go deep enough I actually evolve my game into making myself harder to fight against(but that's a post for another day) but base level wrong fixing is amazing for videos. Once I have that knowledge, then I figure out how to move/think in order to beat every possible situation that arises from the one(s) I got punished in and it just turns out to be whatever style I end up using for the most part.

I guess what I'm suggesting with all of that is you can get a lot and even change your playstyle out of one set/a few different games. Don't let your circumstances limit you from improvement if you have videos and drive at least(drive is super important and you can make do without videos but it's harder imo). Just focus on your goals and you can improve. =) "

 

[Dr Peepee]

If you are weaving things together and creating a stronger gameplan off of these specifics, then it's fine. If you're only looking at how to beat specific things and not adaptations(not EVERYTHING, but at least next step) then you have more to do.

 

[Yort]

If you are weaving things together and creating a stronger gameplan off of these specifics, then it's fine. If you're only looking at how to beat specific things and not adaptations(not EVERYTHING, but at least next step) then you have more to do.

\

How should lasers be used in the samus match up? Sometimes the risk of getting powershield wavedash dsmashed seems too great compared to the control I get from lasering alot, as samus players often don't move forward and aggress if they're not being lasered anyways. It feels as though samus is grounded a lot so lasers SHOULD be good but they often bite me in the ass.

Could you tell me how to juggle samus compared to peach or puff? Because she can bomb somewhat infinitely it seems as though you aren't really burning her options as you are burning puffs jumps or peach's float and dj, the only options you can really "burn" from samus are her nair / dair and her airdodge it seems. Do you have some rules for this?

I have a lot of trouble attacking samus directly. How do I play around her wavedash back crouch cancel / crouch cancel / powershield up b / up b... etc more. I've had people tell me to avoid attacking her directly as much and noticed mang0 playing this way, where he's more so attacking where she might end up wavedashing or rolling.

Should most lasers have the purpose of taking space if i'm at a longer range? It seems like, inevitably, the goal of lasering a lot is to take space and land a closer position with a laser out, are there any goals of lasering a lot i'm missing here?

 

[Dr Peepee]

My position on these questions will likely evolve some since Samus players have changed a lot over the last few years and I never did a lot of in depth work on the matchup.

You likely need to shoot lower to avoid the PS, and if she does PS then it also becomes easier to respond to by jumping over. I like lasering to damage Samus and slow her down, as well as making timings around which she is likely to move or attack. So if I'm in DA range and lasering, then I know that between lasers it's a possibility, along with walk Ftilt slightly closer or something. So I don't necessarily need to laser a lot, but I do need to look for what she's doing between lasers or after one laser and make use of that information. Many times Falcos already commit to a second laser without seeing what the first did OR remembering the opponent did after one laser in the past, and that is the main thing here. Watch for walk or WD or DA at the relevant ranges and set up to counter as needed. Laser SH backward helps you beat Ftilt and DA with Bair for example and also lets you turnaround laser if you want.

Samus is in a ton of lag after bombing, but you need to be around FH+ range to hit her with Bair reliably due to her small hurtbox and drift during it. Around this range Samus could also DJ or attack, so you can often wait and see what she does and then act. It might be worthwhile taking a training partner and just looping juggles to get used to it. Oh yeah, and if you need to get on a platform to get closer to threaten her, then do it. A lot of players seem to not do this still.

Delayed aerial into shield helps you avoid up-B and also CC attacks iirc. Generally attacking early only works with Nair if you hit Samus moving OOS or she's super close to you, and Dair is for super close Samus or if you suspect Ftilt. At higher percents your Ftilt also looks useful to pressure and keep her from moving and attacking freely, as does pullback Dair(though Dair works at lower percents). I can answer this more specifically with more specifics such as a specific situation or conditioning you struggle with.

Not necessarily. Lasers could be harassment or for damage at longer range, or encouraging the opponent to approach. They also dictate at what time and in what place people could approach. If you're doing primarily SHLs, then Fox may take a more vertical approach as that is what your projectile has encouraged. If you're being aggressive however, then sure lasers help you take stage while keeping your opponent more locked down from intercepting you. Then when closer you want to use them to help set up approaches or fake those approaches, or use that threat to get into a closer range that gives you access to more options like JC shine, etc.

 

[peedy]

Hey PP quick question. Do you think it's possible to create a tier list based on a mathematic formula? I know everyone has different reactions but you possibly could make a tier list based on someones reaction skills. You would obviously have to take into consideration neutral and game theory. Do you think this is possible? What would be it's limitations for a mathematic formula tier list

 

[Dr Peepee]

Most people use math with tier lists based on results and tend to ask "how likely is a character to win a supermajor based on past results." Then they modify that math with some outliers like Armada's Peach not being necessarily possible to win alone these days, etc.

Anyway I'm not really opposed to a math-based tier list, but it would be more or less interesting depending on what you quantify and how you quantify it. And of course the more variables we use the harder it'll be to handle. So I don't think it's possible today, but maybe a concerted effort to quantify neutral in some way and building a data set could lead to a factor for a tier list in the future for example.

I'm generally open to people experimenting with tiers as long as criteria is outlined. Many people just throw out lists without much justification and it's not too interesting to me. I also personally find people have an issue rating their own characters as opposed to those they play less. I used to underrate Falco for years for example, but now I just am really unsure where he is. That doesn't mean I or anyone else shouldn't make a tier list, but we should disclose such things and account for them as much as possible.

 

[roysrevengefgc]

Most people use math with tier lists based on results and tend to ask "how likely is a character to win a supermajor based on past results." Then they modify that math with some outliers like Armada's Peach not being necessarily possible to win alone these days, etc.

Anyway I'm not really opposed to a math-based tier list, but it would be more or less interesting depending on what you quantify and how you quantify it. And of course the more variables we use the harder it'll be to handle. So I don't think it's possible today, but maybe a concerted effort to quantify neutral in some way and building a data set could lead to a factor for a tier list in the future for example.

I'm generally open to people experimenting with tiers as long as criteria is outlined. Many people just throw out lists without much justification and it's not too interesting to me. I also personally find people have an issue rating their own characters as opposed to those they play less. I used to underrate Falco for years for example, but now I just am really unsure where he is. That doesn't mean I or anyone else shouldn't make a tier list, but we should disclose such things and account for them as much as possible.

Are you still doing match analysis? And will you be doing any match analysis for ultimate?

 

[Dr Peepee]

I analyze top player matches sometimes, and also for a very small group of people. Otherwise I just help people with solving specific situations.

I have no intention to do analysis for Ultimate.

 

[roysrevengefgc]

I analyze top player matches sometimes, and also for a very small group of people. Otherwise I just help people with solving specific situations.

I have no intention to do analysis for Ultimate.

I just picked up melee again after 10 years, what would you recommend?

 

[Dr Peepee]

Very cool. I recommend basic tech practice along with things like tech chasing and combos in 20XX. Supplementing with analysis and then bringing this all to friendlies is a good overall strategy I believe.

 

[roysrevengefgc]

Very cool. I recommend basic tech practice along with things like tech chasing and combos in 20XX. Supplementing with analysis and then bringing this all to friendlies is a good overall strategy I believe.

Thank you again for the advice, I also have a follow-up question that I probably should have asked during my previous post. I've been watching competitive melee probably for the past eight or nine years and by far you are the most consistent Falco period in recent years since your absence, a lot of people have been questioning his placement on the tier list. Most people don't consider him second to Fox and favor Marth over Falco from what I have read. You are arguably the most consistent Falco I have seen in competitive melee and I felt like you were the only player who was spending an immeasurable amount of time further developing the Falco metagame. It feels like with your absence there isn't anybody who is as passionate about furthering Falco in the metagame, do you still believe he is second to Fox? And what Falco players have you been watching if any do you consider a contender to further develop his metagame? Everybody would love to see you come back to melee stronger than ever but your health is far more important. I just personally don't see any other passionate, seasoned Falco players such as yourself in competitive melee at this moment. I wish you Godspeed in your recovery and we await your return.

 

[Dr Peepee]

I am unsure about Falco honestly. There are many things I don't know, like how he can truly play vs SDI and some PS tactics. Overall he's still a great character of course. I tentatively put him third behind a Marth/Fox tie for first, but I need to look into more.

I'll get there, no worries.

 

[roysrevengefgc]

I am unsure about Falco honestly. There are many things I don't know, like how he can truly play vs SDI and some PS tactics. Overall he's still a great character of course. I tentatively put him third behind a Marth/Fox tie for first, but I need to look into more.

I'll get there, no worries.

One last question LOL you have a real knack for sitting down and being very observant and studious about the game mechanics and gameplay. What I admire the most is your ability to do in depth research and develop strategies based off of what you have found. Probably one of the biggest things I struggle with is that I seem to have issues actually sitting down and developing strategies and doing proper research. What are some methods that you recommend that would get me in the habit of doing better research in order to be able to pick apart the game more? I just got back into melee after a 10-year Hiatus, I just picked up PM this year, and I plan on playing ultimate competitively starting next week at my locals. I would like to actually sit down and try to pick the game apart but I am not sure what would be the best option or way of actually sitting down and studying the game, what do you recommend?

 

[Dr Peepee]

One good thing to do is stop a video every time a hit happens and try to find out why. If you can't find out just make a guess. That kind of stuff adds up a lot. Studying the game and dividing it into categories such as neutral(and subdivisions), combos, DI, edgeguarding, recovery, juggling, etc is also useful, as is studying the differences between stages.

The most important thing is to start. The next most important thing is to find what works and do that, and discard/modify what doesn't.

 

[MambaGreenFalco]

Hi PP

can you give an example of your thought process when you are thinking about your tools, like for example with laser in place? I find that when I'm practicing my tools I'm either building subconscious connection or making vague and general statements/observations. For example, maybe my opponent would want to jump over my laser.

I also find it's helpful to visualize these general statements for different characters. So I guess the specifics of what the opponent can do come out in my visualizing and the general concept they apply to beat the laser/dash back/etc comes in the form of verbalization, which is pretty interesting cause I just realized that.

Is this the process that you follow or do you do something different?

 

[Dr Peepee]

There are many things to think about. The startup, the low endlag, the varying heights, the sound, the coverage of the (lower) horizontal space, the weakness of the upper diagonal, etc. These things can all be thought about by you and an opponent. At what space can you safely get a laser out due to startup? Does your opponent listen for the laser startup sound before interacting? How can you cover the upper diagonal weakness, and how can the opponent exploit it? What tools are connected to laser in place? Etc.

You can then move on to imagine specifics of how characters may think of these lasers at different spacings or what they may generally do about lasers. If you find that type of process is working for you and you're building connection with the tool and generating new ideas then it's good.

 

[MambaGreenFalco]

There are many things to think about. The startup, the low endlag, the varying heights, the sound, the coverage of the (lower) horizontal space, the weakness of the upper diagonal, etc. These things can all be thought about by you and an opponent. At what space can you safely get a laser out due to startup? Does your opponent listen for the laser startup sound before interacting? How can you cover the upper diagonal weakness, and how can the opponent exploit it? What tools are connected to laser in place? Etc.

You can then move on to imagine specifics of how characters may think of these lasers at different spacings or what they may generally do about lasers. If you find that type of process is working for you and you're building connection with the tool and generating new ideas then it's good.

What are Falco's options when he lands a laser on Marth's shield while he's outside of shine range but within Marth's grab range?

 

[Dr Peepee]

I believe this can depend on staling and spacing but I think you can JC grab and JC shine as well as a lot of things out of dash back like SH in to Bair or dash in to Nair/Dair or wait then punish, etc. You could also jab or Ftilt I guess but I wouldn't recommend it.

 

[Kotastic]

Hello PP,

What do you believe are the most important principles for Falco to internalize? I'm trying to teach some Falco players important principles of the game from what I know and observed, but I'd like to know your input. You said for Marth that he's a character that gets heavily rewarded off of playing positioning (such as him cornering really well) and controlling space well (from using movement and zoning from the several months of discussion we had). You noted a characteristic of Marth is that he's not an aggressive character but pretty good at poking and threatening, so what characteristics would describe Falco in a similar fashion? What facets of playing Falco would give the most returns of getting better similar to Marth?

 

[Dr Peepee]

Admittedly I have struggled with this more since Falco has more options and ways to play than Marth.

Falco's primarily need to take advantage of their laser frame advantage. This is best for them when they are relatively close to very close to their opponent. So whether you're aggressive or defensive this is what you want to shoot for. It's more complicated than this if you use vertical play but I'm leaving that alone for now. Falco is a good controlling character due to lasers, and his pressure is fairly good, so these are the overall archetypes you usually want to think of. Falco is also a pretty high tempo character, rivaling or sometimes exceeding Fox's speed. Since he controls the opponent's speed with primarily lasers he can often be faster than the opponent, so his (temporary) speed advantage should be abused whenever possible.

Do you find this helpful?

 

[Kotastic]

Yes, this gives me more ideas on how falco functions as a character.

How does falco confirm kills for floaties? For marth, the answer is juggling/cornering/edgeguarding well. How does that look for falco?

How does falco corner effectively? Against my falco peers, i tend to not feel threatened as i just cross them up, take laser attack, or take platform (which they are especially poor at dealing with if I'm Sheik).

How does falco shield pressure sheik effectively? One of them complains how he feels it's impossible to pressure sheik due to her nair oos and her amazing roll and shield.

Why is dash dancing (or wavesurfing) important for falco, and how does this connect with laser?

I see falco isn't a simple character at all. I'll see if i have new questions to ask later for them.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Tech chase Dair vs Fsmash vs shine/utilt into whatever mixup or just landing Dair in neutral and killing out of it. Edgeguarding and juggling come into play fairly often against them though. Sometimes you can get shine off the top vs edgeguard/regular kills vs floaties but it depends.

Threatening an approach OR if the opponent does platform movement a decent amount you can switch to Bair control and mix SH with DJ or FH Bair if they go up. It's kind of complicated sometimes but that's a general idea. You could also do stuff like SH in for a regular attack but DJ Nair/Dair if they go up and hit them so it's not so straightforward. Falcos get too stuck trying to cover the SH and ground level stuff and need to add in vertical play and also Bair stuff sometimes in certain matchups.

One easy Falco solution is a lot like Marth. If you just space Bair but also sometimes Nair/Dair then they have to kind of deal with it. Going ham on Sheik's shield doesn't tend to accomplish much unless you know she likes to Nair OOS after she sees shine for example, in which case you shine aerial or double shine or whatever depending on spacing. The big thing is don't tunnel on getting immediate hits. If you let Sheik move back then her position is worse and if you're normally cutting off roll in then that just leaves stuff that can be worse for her(though you do need to learn how to fight vs her on platforms more than sometimes, which leads back to the corner question a bit). Also chasing Sheik down more means her shield shrinks, and sometimes adding a bit of waiting helps shrink it too. You can start shield poking her head or force more panic options in these situations sometimes.

Dash is basically what threatens your attacks OR laser setups. After doing one laser these get a lot stronger as you're abusing laser advantage. You can get free reads on people with laser then dash in and stall out or WD/dash back or SH in and then DJ to see how they'd beat the SH approach, etc.

Yeah Marth is wayyy easier to teach people in my experience lol. It helps I also was taught some of these ideas by Mow. I am still trying to find a way to organize the effective variance I see in his play but it'll take a bit. Ask whenever.

 

[MambaGreenFalco]

How does shield pressure change when you land a shine in front of them but are turned around with better access to bair, less access to fade away dair and nair, and having to shine turnaround grab?

What's the difference between fade away late dair and fade away late nair on shield? What's the difference between fade away early dair and fade away early nair?

What shield pressure does double shine compliment? Is double shine pressure a necessity? It seems that top falco's all get away with not doing it presumably because of the inconsistency factor added with the fact that it's highly committal.

 

[Kotastic]

New questions to help some of my falco friends

How does laser relate to TR? How should Falco in general play around other character's TR in relation to his laser? What does it tell someone when a Falco's standing laser gets cut off pre-emptively by say, Falcon's running nair or Sheik's DA? Once those are discouraged where Falcon or Sheik play more in place, is this when laser becomes more effective?

When is Falco's FH good? Does the effectiveness of his FH change when he's turned around for falling bair?

How does pillaring tech chase work? Is it reactionary? How do you play positioning from there? Is there a threshold where you should continue dair tech chase or go for shine bair or something?

Is upthrow followups ever really reliable if they keep SDI'ing laser up? If so as a mixup, how can this be setup?

When would approaching nair be more appropriate than approaching dair? Assume at same heights (both starting high/low).

What's the idea with juggling with bair against floaties? I have a solid ideas/flowchart with juggles with marth to feint with SH sometimes and dash fair/fsmash as a start, but I'm not sure how that necessarily translates with Falco since he's slower.

Also, just as an update for myself, I've been doing pretty well recently the past month. Beat a lot of good people at a recent socal regional and made a name for myself, including a tight game 5 set vs Army. Progress is going well!

 

[Illuminus]

New questions to help some of my falco friends

How does laser relate to TR? How should Falco in general play around other character's TR in relation to his laser? What does it tell someone when a Falco's standing laser gets cut off pre-emptively by say, Falcon's running nair or Sheik's DA? Once those are discouraged where Falcon or Sheik play more in place, is this when laser becomes more effective?

When is Falco's FH good? Does the effectiveness of his FH change when he's turned around for falling bair?

How does pillaring tech chase work? Is it reactionary? How do you play positioning from there? Is there a threshold where you should continue dair tech chase or go for shine bair or something?

Is upthrow followups ever really reliable if they keep SDI'ing laser up? If so as a mixup, how can this be setup?

I'm definitely not an expert like PP but on the topic of threat range proper, laser heights mitigate a lot of DA stuff for sheik. The laser stops her in her tracks and if you feel like she is too close you can just fadeback/dair inplace or even CC its about playing with spacing and options.

Sheiks biggest weakness is her threat range so you only have to worry about DA and boost grab after that defence is solved with laser control and movement. I generally go for corner pressure strategy, because she is a naturally defensive character.

Captain Falcon is different because he has a bad jump squat, but good threat range so you neeed to be in a habit of stuffing then then not giving up pressure, you have good combo potential too so the reward on aggression is much higher than sheik.

The fullhopping thing revolves around movement for me. Platform movement is always good until your opponent is good at sharking.

Its just as easy to corner yourself on a platform as it is on the ground. In a lot of matchups I feel like its a battle between sharking, and movement mix ups. You give up a lot stage by full hopping and give up laser control, but you can be very evasive as a reward so sometimes when your in TR that makes it worth it, full hopping is good. Also if have good read fast falling across them is a good way of reversing position while threatening bair.

Pillaring is very erractic, timing soft hits vs hard hits, and getting fastfalls and reading smash di is challenging and the %s work differently for every character. That being said if you miss a combo extension i think you can react to tech rolls with dsmash and fsmash. Just land crouch and watch.

Upthrow has nothing guaranteed since smash di exists but you should still use it as an execution test. If they miss the DI you might get something put of it. If they do hit it they might not react in time allowing you to follow up. So think you should always go for followups, just make sure to not give up stage and mixit up with bthrow and fthrow

 

[Dr Peepee]

How does shield pressure change when you land a shine in front of them but are turned around with better access to bair, less access to fade away dair and nair, and having to shine turnaround grab?

What's the difference between fade away late dair and fade away late nair on shield? What's the difference between fade away early dair and fade away early nair?

What shield pressure does double shine compliment? Is double shine pressure a necessity? It seems that top falco's all get away with not doing it presumably because of the inconsistency factor added with the fact that it's highly committal.

You can Bair if you think they will Nair OOS or something but if you're doing AC Bair you'll want to consider drifting away to avoid OOS punishes. Shine grab is even slower with turnaround now so it's less accessible. The main difference is probably Bair beats OOS stuff more cleanly and spacing it on shield, especially mid or late Bair is harder for the opponent to deal with, along with the shine grab change.

I believe fadeaway early Dair is safer when I saw a comparison of it, but I'd imagine fadeaway late Nair is safer.

Double shine mixes with shine grab and shine into delayed aerial, or basically it keeps the opponent from instant acting OOS after every shine they see.

 

[Malt]

Yo, I've been feeling pretty lost in the falco ditto lately. Anyone here have good sets to watch? As in, sets that demonstrate a clear gameplan in the matchup, or maybe even if its just one thing about the matchup that's demonstrated well in the set, I'd appreciate it .

 

[AnonymousID]

Yo, I've been feeling pretty lost in the falco ditto lately. Anyone here have good sets to watch? As in, sets that demonstrate a clear gameplan in the matchup, or maybe even if its just one thing about the matchup that's demonstrated well in the set, I'd appreciate it .

The most recent ditto I know of is Ginger vs mang0 at BH8. Ginger even did an analysis on it so you should definitely check that out if you haven't!

 

[MambaGreenFalco]

You can Bair if you think they will Nair OOS or something but if you're doing AC Bair you'll want to consider drifting away to avoid OOS punishes. Shine grab is even slower with turnaround now so it's less accessible. The main difference is probably Bair beats OOS stuff more cleanly and spacing it on shield, especially mid or late Bair is harder for the opponent to deal with, along with the shine grab change.

I believe fadeaway early Dair is safer when I saw a comparison of it, but I'd imagine fadeaway late Nair is safer.

Double shine mixes with shine grab and shine into delayed aerial, or basically it keeps the opponent from instant acting OOS after every shine they see.

Recently I haven't been focusing on analysis and neutral as much because through talking to one of the best players in my area I've come to realize that execution and punish are the keys to beating everyone around my level. Neutral doesn't really start until you have those things down. Just something interesting that I wanted to share and wanted to know if you agree with that sentiment.

Whats the difference between backflilp laser and half dash back laser?

 

[Dr Peepee]

Yeah you need to be able to do what you want and get good damage per opening to be threatening generally. Neutral tends to come along with those things in a way. This isn't always true for everyone as some people prefer prioritizing neutral but generally punish and execution will get you farther.

Backflip laser often doesn't go as far away and threatens Bair. Half dash back laser in place gives you a bit more space and you can do different actions like jump away out of dash back. The laser also can be mixed up with a full or deeper approach.