PPMD's Falco Discussion Thread

[Dr Peepee]

Setting yourself up to do both can be a good start, and this comes with practice and understanding how options work together. Some people spam Utilt and Bair vs Marth for example and it's very unlikely Marth would run into those moves with the way he plays, so you'd need to do defense differently against him. For practice, it helps to practice for the matchup like I just described, but it's also useful to just practice things that set you up for punishes, like trying to get lasers in closer to the opponent in various ways for aggression, or dash/WD/SH back then attacking or lasering for defense. When it becomes useful in matches your autopilot will be serving you instead of working against you.

Playing people of all skill levels is useful.

 

[MambaGreenFalco]

How do you deal with fox’s full hop on ys? I feel like I have to back up a lot if I don’t call it out initially and then I’m not exactly cornered but don’t have center stage either. I think what makes it more threatening is the mixup fox has of dj wave landing on the top plat and then attacking from there. I don’t feel confident approaching the fox while he’s on the top plat nor do I want to go through his threat zone into center stage to be directly below him.

Am I playing the position wrong by initially cornering myself or is it just the fact that I don’t know what to do when I’m below the side plat and fox is on the top plat?

 

[Birdsnest]

What should my game plan and immediate options be after I jab or ftilt on someones shield? Obviously this depends on the character but Im aiming this question vs fox and sheik.

 

[Dr Peepee]

How do you deal with fox’s full hop on ys? I feel like I have to back up a lot if I don’t call it out initially and then I’m not exactly cornered but don’t have center stage either. I think what makes it more threatening is the mixup fox has of dj wave landing on the top plat and then attacking from there. I don’t feel confident approaching the fox while he’s on the top plat nor do I want to go through his threat zone into center stage to be directly below him.

Am I playing the position wrong by initially cornering myself or is it just the fact that I don’t know what to do when I’m below the side plat and fox is on the top plat?

How is he FH'ing? Just in place or at you? And is he just sitting on the platform afterward or does he usually come at you?

What should my game plan and immediate options be after I jab or ftilt on someones shield? Obviously this depends on the character but Im aiming this question vs fox and sheik.

Depends on percent and spacing too. Characters may spotdodge or jump after jab since they often associate jab with grab next so watch for those. Ftilt I think people often WD back from it but Fox could also FH and some players may WD in. So what I do is hold down for say Dtilt and otherwise do a laser or dash in to take space/hit them for moving up or away. The best way to know is to just do it and see what happens without going for anything and then use that info next time the situation comes up and build from there. Eventually you'll see what's common for people and what's not.

 

[MambaGreenFalco]

How is he FH'ing? Just in place or at you? And is he just sitting on the platform afterward or does he usually come at you?


Depends on percent and spacing too. Characters may spotdodge or jump after jab since they often associate jab with grab next so watch for those. Ftilt I think people often WD back from it but Fox could also FH and some players may WD in. So what I do is hold down for say Dtilt and otherwise do a laser or dash in to take space/hit them for moving up or away. The best way to know is to just do it and see what happens without going for anything and then use that info next time the situation comes up and build from there. Eventually you'll see what's common for people and what's not.

Full hopping at me, so I feel like I have to back up a lot just to dodge it. Like dash full hop drill on the way down. I also have a similar problem where they slowly come in on me with full hop bairs because I feel like I corner myself while dash back lasering it.

When he's on the top platform it's definitely a mixup of both. He mixes up his approach timing from there quite often. But at the same time is willing to chill up there if he knows I'm just gonna stay cornered.

Should I just be bairing to condition him to stop?

 

[Dr Peepee]

So if he's FH'ing at you, you can FH/DJ over him and Dair him, you can dash SH/FH Bair him depending on spacing etc, you can Utilt(requires you to dash less), or you can back up and laser. You can also CC if he Nairs. If you're always backing up, then I'd suggest using one of the other solutions, along with doing some shine OOS if he hits your shield. You can also laser a Bair landing and then they're turned around or shielding which you can use to your advantage. If they land with Bair you can laser close for a mixup, get under it with Utilt/Bair, or sometimes Dair over it depending on spacing+timing.

When he's on the top platform, getting in position to beat Bair whether directly under him or in position to laser his landing like we talked about is good. From there you can begin using FH/DJ Bair or FH shine to threaten him on the top platform. Most people usually just wait a little bit until you move, so just move around positions to beat Bair and that should help you out as a starting point.

 

[MambaGreenFalco]

So if he's FH'ing at you, you can FH/DJ over him and Dair him, you can dash SH/FH Bair him depending on spacing etc, you can Utilt(requires you to dash less), or you can back up and laser. You can also CC if he Nairs. If you're always backing up, then I'd suggest using one of the other solutions, along with doing some shine OOS if he hits your shield. You can also laser a Bair landing and then they're turned around or shielding which you can use to your advantage. If they land with Bair you can laser close for a mixup, get under it with Utilt/Bair, or sometimes Dair over it depending on spacing+timing.

When he's on the top platform, getting in position to beat Bair whether directly under him or in position to laser his landing like we talked about is good. From there you can begin using FH/DJ Bair or FH shine to threaten him on the top platform. Most people usually just wait a little bit until you move, so just move around positions to beat Bair and that should help you out as a starting point.

Does full hopping preemptively against fox give you leverage in positions besides them full hopping at you?

I know that druggedfox and leffen have a way of learning the game where they learn positions so thoroughly that they can think of the answer consciously rather than subconsciously. Can you tell me a bit about this form of learning the game and how it's different/similar to the way that you learned melee? This is super appealing to me but it doesn't seem like a viable strategy to learn unless you've already been playing for a long time to accumulate internalized nonverbal knowledge such as situational awareness, which leads me to my next question.

Is there a way to practice situational awareness? Of the 3 step process of 1) recognizing the situation 2) choosing what option to do 3) executing that option, 2 and 3 are easily practicable but I've never even started to think about consciously practicing situational awareness until now. This is something I'm thinking about because I really don't get a lot of practice against people because my internet is too bad for netplay and I only have people in my local area who are a few levels below me and when we play it's normally in a super casual setting. Basically I feel like I can maximize my time better by improving by myself rather than with people

As you can see I'm starting to think about my process of improvement long term. Because at this point I feel like I have a lot of building blocks with learning my tools separately, practicing my combo game, shadowboxing, analysis, and specific execution practice like ledgedashing. . But overall, I'm now looking to learn how to put all those things together in an efficient, natural, and fun way.

 

[Birdsnest]

I have one more question that I'm sure most people can answer. When I dair someone onto a platform and into a tech situation, what are the options I can do on reaction withought a read?

 

[Dr Peepee]

Does full hopping preemptively against fox give you leverage in positions besides them full hopping at you?

I know that druggedfox and leffen have a way of learning the game where they learn positions so thoroughly that they can think of the answer consciously rather than subconsciously. Can you tell me a bit about this form of learning the game and how it's different/similar to the way that you learned melee? This is super appealing to me but it doesn't seem like a viable strategy to learn unless you've already been playing for a long time to accumulate internalized nonverbal knowledge such as situational awareness, which leads me to my next question.

Is there a way to practice situational awareness? Of the 3 step process of 1) recognizing the situation 2) choosing what option to do 3) executing that option, 2 and 3 are easily practicable but I've never even started to think about consciously practicing situational awareness until now. This is something I'm thinking about because I really don't get a lot of practice against people because my internet is too bad for netplay and I only have people in my local area who are a few levels below me and when we play it's normally in a super casual setting. Basically I feel like I can maximize my time better by improving by myself rather than with people

As you can see I'm starting to think about my process of improvement long term. Because at this point I feel like I have a lot of building blocks with learning my tools separately, practicing my combo game, shadowboxing, analysis, and specific execution practice like ledgedashing. . But overall, I'm now looking to learn how to put all those things together in an efficient, natural, and fun way.

It can depend. Usually if you're not FH'ing a lot and mixing it up well it'll be hard for Fox to react to and you can always drift back/land on platforms and then hit him trying to hit your landing, or the reverse of the problem you had. It's mostly tough on small stages if he's right next to you, but even then it's still playable if you work on it enough.

Yeah that's how I learned Melee. That's what analysis was for me. Of course there was other stuff involved like discussion and playing to test ideas, but the analysis became the main way pretty quickly. Any way you learn will take work, but you can't really avoid learning positions to be good. Some people just spend more time on theoretical outcomes instead of what's likely, and that stuff you can ignore more. Also keep in mind that people pick simple stuff that often repeats a lot, so solving positions to any degree can yield pretty big returns.

I don't have the best overall answer about how to improve alone, as even I had my brother to play with. I enjoyed teaching others and helping them improve, which led to having training partners sometime, so maybe that's worth considering for those you play with.

When I did have long stretches by myself, I'd build up a lot of ideas about what people could do about my gameplay so I could test everything out when I had a chance. Maybe you can just amass a very large scale version of that so you can constantly be testing out ideas any time you play someone more serious. These ideas can be developed from analysis and discussion here. And for situational learning, starting with TR and what options beat what at close ranges and moving backward can be a pretty solid starting ground.

I have one more question that I'm sure most people can answer. When I dair someone onto a platform and into a tech situation, what are the options I can do on reaction withought a read?

Depends on when you land/percent because of camera height and such, but I'd say it should usually be possible to Dsmash tech in place and Fsmash tech roll. Grabbing is easiest for most people, and walking and shining or Utilt'ing may be possible in different situations.

 

[MambaGreenFalco]

It can depend. Usually if you're not FH'ing a lot and mixing it up well it'll be hard for Fox to react to and you can always drift back/land on platforms and then hit him trying to hit your landing, or the reverse of the problem you had. It's mostly tough on small stages if he's right next to you, but even then it's still playable if you work on it enough.

Yeah that's how I learned Melee. That's what analysis was for me. Of course there was other stuff involved like discussion and playing to test ideas, but the analysis became the main way pretty quickly. Any way you learn will take work, but you can't really avoid learning positions to be good. Some people just spend more time on theoretical outcomes instead of what's likely, and that stuff you can ignore more. Also keep in mind that people pick simple stuff that often repeats a lot, so solving positions to any degree can yield pretty big returns.

I don't have the best overall answer about how to improve alone, as even I had my brother to play with. I enjoyed teaching others and helping them improve, which led to having training partners sometime, so maybe that's worth considering for those you play with.

When I did have long stretches by myself, I'd build up a lot of ideas about what people could do about my gameplay so I could test everything out when I had a chance. Maybe you can just amass a very large scale version of that so you can constantly be testing out ideas any time you play someone more serious. These ideas can be developed from analysis and discussion here. And for situational learning, starting with TR and what options beat what at close ranges and moving backward can be a pretty solid starting ground.


Depends on when you land/percent because of camera height and such, but I'd say it should usually be possible to Dsmash tech in place and Fsmash tech roll. Grabbing is easiest for most people, and walking and shining or Utilt'ing may be possible in different situations.

Do you have any tips for that type of analysis?

“People pick simple stuff that often repeats a lot, so solving positions to any degree can yield pretty big returns”
Can you expound on that a little more? Or provide an example?

What does TR stand for?

I’m assuming your brother only really played fox during your extended friendly sessions. If so, how did you test things out against other characters? Ask him to play them briefly and then see which positions were easier or harder for you to win instead of looking at which positions you strictly won or lost since he didn’t have experience with the character?

 

[Dr Peepee]

You pause in a given position and analyze everything you can about it. The most basic stuff being what they can do, how those things interact, and then bring in other factors like percent as needed. It helps to make a prediction about what will happen based on your pause and then see how it played out. You can then try to figure out why things were different than you expected if they were different.

It basically just means people have habits. So if you learn where habits emerge or how to make them come out that's great. Just like how you can get people who roll a lot to roll at a predictable timing.

Threatening range, or the distance which you can avoid your opponent's quickest and longest range attack such as Fox dash SH Nair.

He played other characters but he never willingly tested anything with me. Sometimes if he was interested I would teach him about something he was doing that I was beating, or how he could do specific options that were good or that I struggled against.

 

[jedimeister007]

a few q's from a set i'm watching

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=20&v=DxjW4-m8vzw
so ginger dashdances out of the nair and i'm guessing he went for a dair, but how good would dash attack be? What about grab? I could see grab being not super good since Hax could've rolled or jabbed before ginger could grab but what about dash attack?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=27&v=DxjW4-m8vzw
instead of doing another shine he goes for a bair. wouldn't shine put Hax in a worse position even if Ginger couldnt convert?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=182&v=DxjW4-m8vzw
is there a way Hax could cover a shielddrop/drop through laser? I can see run off aerial to try and catch the fox, but would dropping through the platform be safe at that distance?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=190&v=DxjW4-m8vzw
would ginger have enough time to dash back after the laser to cover Hax's OoS option (excluding something like WD OoS jab/shine)? And would it be better if ginger stayed back with the laser and did a shield stop before jumping?

https://youtu.be/DxjW4-m8vzw?t=230
why not go for fair? i see he went for ff to plat > utilt, but would utilt be much better in that situation?

https://youtu.be/DxjW4-m8vzw?t=509
after teching the shine, how dangerous would dash back be? if Hax jumped forward and attacked would Ginger be out of the way in time? could he also have utilted or dash attacked right after getting up?

https://youtu.be/DxjW4-m8vzw?t=559
what was the bair covering and why didn't ginger go for a laser?

 

[AnonymousID]

I have a couple questions/ideas vs puff and peach, sorta rambly I'm just unsure of my thoughts and any feedback on them would be helpful!

1. Against peach can you always laser her float on reaction safely (with highest SH laser/full hop double laser with fast fall)? I'm thinking if she's floating around the middle of bf you can. I'm also thinking that the laser might hit her before an aerial comes out.
2. Is preemptively predicting the float and shooting a high laser something I should go for?
4. Generally speaking hows peach's punish game compared to falco. When I play against characters like Fox, I try to turn as many situations as I can into situations where if I win I get a shine even if it's a bit of a gamble which can be kind of risky, but If I fail against fox I don't need to win as many situations to turn it around. However I feel like this approach doesn't work on peach as well and that I need to go for more guaranteed stuff and less 50/50s. Maybe my punishes against peach or my defense just isn't that good but I'm not really sure.
3. When peach is on the ground, I'm thinking I should shoot several laseres before I go in, since lasers beat most of peaches ground options (WD back/dash attack). Also I kind of feel like I should just laser as quick as possible rather than dash dancing since I feel as if that just gives her time to move around/float but I guess changing the laser timings can also mess her up. Idk any advice would be helpful here.
5. For shield pressure I'm thinking my main goal is to just weaken the shield so I can come in laser with a shield poke/dtilt or something. If I'm not going for that I'll just shine grab just to mix things up. I'm kind of scared to go for more risky shield pressure that might lead to a solid shine or something.

6. Against puff if you see her jump in the air, is it safe to just wd/dash in asap, since it's going to take her several frames to float back down into a threatening range. I'm thinking if she's kind of close to you and she jumps, you can position yourself right under her (or a lot closer) where you can threaten with full hop and stuff.
7. Also is ( run up shielding puffs aerial -> wd oos -> something ) a thing I should be going for often, this is my main way of getting into puff since most of the time puff has to land after she throws out an aerial that can hit you which means you can wavedash out and have puff be stuck on the ground.

I haven't really looked into some of the more niche scenarios but I want to develop a simple overall gameplan vs puff/peach.

 

[MambaGreenFalco]

You pause in a given position and analyze everything you can about it. The most basic stuff being what they can do, how those things interact, and then bring in other factors like percent as needed. It helps to make a prediction about what will happen based on your pause and then see how it played out. You can then try to figure out why things were different than you expected if they were different.

It basically just means people have habits. So if you learn where habits emerge or how to make them come out that's great. Just like how you can get people who roll a lot to roll at a predictable timing.

Threatening range, or the distance which you can avoid your opponent's quickest and longest range attack such as Fox dash SH Nair.

He played other characters but he never willingly tested anything with me. Sometimes if he was interested I would teach him about something he was doing that I was beating, or how he could do specific options that were good or that I struggled against.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ywwTYqlPl1A

Starting at 0:08 therealthing does that dj sh to side plat then fall through plat laser. Afterwards he tries to whiff punish swedish's fair. I know I've asked about this before in the past but can you tell me a bit about the position where sheik is on the side plat of dreamland and falco is right below? I want to be sure about this one. I think the options are full hop bair retreating, full hop shine then you get a mixup of dj or wl on plat, sh upair, doing sh to condition/wait for shield to get smaller, immediate dj with back turned to threaten bair/laser and they don't know if you're gonna land on side plat or not, sh bair, up tilt, and retreating laser.

Also do you think it was therealthing's mistake to let swedish on the side plat in the first place? I feel like the way he did the dj wl he was trying to threaten something from short hop but then get swedish to whiff by going to the side plat. But that probably would have been better if he had been going towards swedish with a dash sh instead of a drift in sh. Also Falco going to the side plat is even more committal on dl because it's the highest. So it takes longer to get up there and come down with aerial/laser.

 

[kaptinkillem]

People like to say you should just crouch cancel vs sheik, but I don't feel like I have a good understanding of punishing sheik aerials with crouch cancel. Dtilt is too slow and can be crouch canceled by the sheik, shine often misses because the sheik is spacing. Should I be grabbing?

 

[MambaGreenFalco]

People like to say you should just crouch cancel vs sheik, but I don't feel like I have a good understanding of punishing sheik aerials with crouch cancel. Dtilt is too slow and can be crouch canceled by the sheik, shine often misses because the sheik is spacing. Should I be grabbing?

In my experience, cc at most gets you a close range mixup against sheik. That can be strong but I find there's better ways to get closer to her if that's your goal with the cc. Also yes d tilt comes out on frame 7 but doesn't hit until frame 8 because frame 7 is in the z axis. Whereas sheik's d tilt, f tilt, and d smash all come out on frame 5. Not to mention her jab which is frame 2. So yeah normally I find it's better to just back up and laser her landing/aerial or contest her aerials with your own.

On a similar note, punishing jumps is falco's best way to get an aerial into shine. So if you find sheik's are short hopping/full hopping against you a lot in neutral you can discourage those by going in earlier.

 

[Dr Peepee]

a few q's from a set i'm watching

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=20&v=DxjW4-m8vzw
so ginger dashdances out of the nair and i'm guessing he went for a dair, but how good would dash attack be? What about grab? I could see grab being not super good since Hax could've rolled or jabbed before ginger could grab but what about dash attack?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=27&v=DxjW4-m8vzw
instead of doing another shine he goes for a bair. wouldn't shine put Hax in a worse position even if Ginger couldnt convert?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=182&v=DxjW4-m8vzw
is there a way Hax could cover a shielddrop/drop through laser? I can see run off aerial to try and catch the fox, but would dropping through the platform be safe at that distance?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=190&v=DxjW4-m8vzw
would ginger have enough time to dash back after the laser to cover Hax's OoS option (excluding something like WD OoS jab/shine)? And would it be better if ginger stayed back with the laser and did a shield stop before jumping?

https://youtu.be/DxjW4-m8vzw?t=230
why not go for fair? i see he went for ff to plat > utilt, but would utilt be much better in that situation?

https://youtu.be/DxjW4-m8vzw?t=509
after teching the shine, how dangerous would dash back be? if Hax jumped forward and attacked would Ginger be out of the way in time? could he also have utilted or dash attacked right after getting up?

https://youtu.be/DxjW4-m8vzw?t=559
what was the bair covering and why didn't ginger go for a laser?

Dash attack would've worked. Grab might have since Hax drifted forward but it wasn't a full drift so I'm not totally sure. DA struggles with people holding down or away sometimes but I thiiink here it might be more okay.

Both options could be okay I think, but with Bair you'd want to land on the top platform/drift with him so you can chase him down to push Fox offstage. If you DI out for shine and get Bair'd at this percent it could be a decent edgeguard situation. And if you hold in, then it could be a shine. Holding out for shine could potentially make it easier to follow up either way for Falco, but not necessarily like if Fox went to the right and Falco went to the top platform. From there Fox has some drifting wiggle room plus DJ and less percent than if he got Bair'd. Of course shine can lead into another shine and up-B or another Bair mixup but you get the idea.

Yes because Hax was coming out of roll when Ginger was actionable. If you mean in general then it would be close and could be a high low type mixup.

Yes he had plenty of time. Your solution is okay unless he did something like FH then I don't think it could necessarily catch that.

I guess if he landed on the platform he could have Utilt'ed but it wouldn't have true comboed or anything. The Fair is fine there.

Ginger could have punished with dash back Bair or Utilt here if Hax did move in because Hax did Dair while Ginger was teching. Dash attack would've lost to Hax's retreating Nair.

He was attacking Hax WD'ing in OOS. Laser may have taken too long to get into position if Hax read it and Hax could have punished.

I have a couple questions/ideas vs puff and peach, sorta rambly I'm just unsure of my thoughts and any feedback on them would be helpful!

1. Against peach can you always laser her float on reaction safely (with highest SH laser/full hop double laser with fast fall)? I'm thinking if she's floating around the middle of bf you can. I'm also thinking that the laser might hit her before an aerial comes out.
2. Is preemptively predicting the float and shooting a high laser something I should go for?
4. Generally speaking hows peach's punish game compared to falco. When I play against characters like Fox, I try to turn as many situations as I can into situations where if I win I get a shine even if it's a bit of a gamble which can be kind of risky, but If I fail against fox I don't need to win as many situations to turn it around. However I feel like this approach doesn't work on peach as well and that I need to go for more guaranteed stuff and less 50/50s. Maybe my punishes against peach or my defense just isn't that good but I'm not really sure.
3. When peach is on the ground, I'm thinking I should shoot several laseres before I go in, since lasers beat most of peaches ground options (WD back/dash attack). Also I kind of feel like I should just laser as quick as possible rather than dash dancing since I feel as if that just gives her time to move around/float but I guess changing the laser timings can also mess her up. Idk any advice would be helpful here.
5. For shield pressure I'm thinking my main goal is to just weaken the shield so I can come in laser with a shield poke/dtilt or something. If I'm not going for that I'll just shine grab just to mix things up. I'm kind of scared to go for more risky shield pressure that might lead to a solid shine or something.

6. Against puff if you see her jump in the air, is it safe to just wd/dash in asap, since it's going to take her several frames to float back down into a threatening range. I'm thinking if she's kind of close to you and she jumps, you can position yourself right under her (or a lot closer) where you can threaten with full hop and stuff.
7. Also is ( run up shielding puffs aerial -> wd oos -> something ) a thing I should be going for often, this is my main way of getting into puff since most of the time puff has to land after she throws out an aerial that can hit you which means you can wavedash out and have puff be stuck on the ground.

I haven't really looked into some of the more niche scenarios but I want to develop a simple overall gameplan vs puff/peach.

1. Not if she gets too close or you don't drift back enough. Starting her Fair or Nair early could hit your higher SHLs. DJDL she can get under it so it can help to drift back sometimes as well, though that won't always work.

2. I don't think it's worth it since you can't get a great reward off of it iirc and if you're wrong you could just get dash attacked or not control her grounded movement etc, but I know other Falcos like to do that sort of thing.

4/3. You mainly just need to dislodge Peach and then Bair her to death until edgeguard. So hitting shines isn't as important besides being super useful for dislodging. So yeah guaranteed stuff is probably fine as a general rule but feel free to experiment.

3/4. She can still jump between lasers. Squid mentioned that if you shoot a regular height and then highest laser asap you can hit her jumping to float though. But if you're doing more than that then she can just float anyway. So lasering a bunch in general will result in her floating.

5. Not sure what matchup you're talking about, but I'd recommend spacing aerials too, Bair particularly. If you're talking about Peach then double shine is probably okay sometimes too.

6. Jump when she's already in the air? Yeah that's good.

7. I think it should be used sparingly, especially since Falco's jumpsquat and overall speed is much worse than Fox's. Puff can just start faking moves and messing with you in shield, or hitting your shield then setting up on you WD'ing out close to her when you don't have a laser out. Depends on situations though and is worth experimenting with sometimes.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ywwTYqlPl1A

Starting at 0:08 therealthing does that dj sh to side plat then fall through plat laser. Afterwards he tries to whiff punish swedish's fair. I know I've asked about this before in the past but can you tell me a bit about the position where sheik is on the side plat of dreamland and falco is right below? I want to be sure about this one. I think the options are full hop bair retreating, full hop shine then you get a mixup of dj or wl on plat, sh upair, doing sh to condition/wait for shield to get smaller, immediate dj with back turned to threaten bair/laser and they don't know if you're gonna land on side plat or not, sh bair, up tilt, and retreating laser.

Also do you think it was therealthing's mistake to let swedish on the side plat in the first place? I feel like the way he did the dj wl he was trying to threaten something from short hop but then get swedish to whiff by going to the side plat. But that probably would have been better if he had been going towards swedish with a dash sh instead of a drift in sh. Also Falco going to the side plat is even more committal on dl because it's the highest. So it takes longer to get up there and come down with aerial/laser.

Uair maybe not so good on DL. Dashes to encourage them to drop while also using some dashes back to set up for Bairs is a good transition tool. But yeah overall that covers it.

His play was alright since it mixed up his laser with going to the platform for a new strategy. Swedish jumped in place to beat incoming approaches so he could have lasered in place or faked then hit Swedish's landing. His play was fine to me but he messed up hitting Swedish's Fair landing lag.

People like to say you should just crouch cancel vs sheik, but I don't feel like I have a good understanding of punishing sheik aerials with crouch cancel. Dtilt is too slow and can be crouch canceled by the sheik, shine often misses because the sheik is spacing. Should I be grabbing?

Unless she's hitting you with late Nair or mid Fair or something it's unlikely you'll be getting to CC punish her aerials. CC vs her aerials just keeps her from following up. CC is great vs her tilts and dash attack primarily.

 

[MambaGreenFalco]

Dash attack would've worked. Grab might have since Hax drifted forward but it wasn't a full drift so I'm not totally sure. DA struggles with people holding down or away sometimes but I thiiink here it might be more okay.

Both options could be okay I think, but with Bair you'd want to land on the top platform/drift with him so you can chase him down to push Fox offstage. If you DI out for shine and get Bair'd at this percent it could be a decent edgeguard situation. And if you hold in, then it could be a shine. Holding out for shine could potentially make it easier to follow up either way for Falco, but not necessarily like if Fox went to the right and Falco went to the top platform. From there Fox has some drifting wiggle room plus DJ and less percent than if he got Bair'd. Of course shine can lead into another shine and up-B or another Bair mixup but you get the idea.

Yes because Hax was coming out of roll when Ginger was actionable. If you mean in general then it would be close and could be a high low type mixup.

Yes he had plenty of time. Your solution is okay unless he did something like FH then I don't think it could necessarily catch that.

I guess if he landed on the platform he could have Utilt'ed but it wouldn't have true comboed or anything. The Fair is fine there.

Ginger could have punished with dash back Bair or Utilt here if Hax did move in because Hax did Dair while Ginger was teching. Dash attack would've lost to Hax's retreating Nair.

He was attacking Hax WD'ing in OOS. Laser may have taken too long to get into position if Hax read it and Hax could have punished.


1. Not if she gets too close or you don't drift back enough. Starting her Fair or Nair early could hit your higher SHLs. DJDL she can get under it so it can help to drift back sometimes as well, though that won't always work.

2. I don't think it's worth it since you can't get a great reward off of it iirc and if you're wrong you could just get dash attacked or not control her grounded movement etc, but I know other Falcos like to do that sort of thing.

4/3. You mainly just need to dislodge Peach and then Bair her to death until edgeguard. So hitting shines isn't as important besides being super useful for dislodging. So yeah guaranteed stuff is probably fine as a general rule but feel free to experiment.

3/4. She can still jump between lasers. Squid mentioned that if you shoot a regular height and then highest laser asap you can hit her jumping to float though. But if you're doing more than that then she can just float anyway. So lasering a bunch in general will result in her floating.

5. Not sure what matchup you're talking about, but I'd recommend spacing aerials too, Bair particularly. If you're talking about Peach then double shine is probably okay sometimes too.

6. Jump when she's already in the air? Yeah that's good.

7. I think it should be used sparingly, especially since Falco's jumpsquat and overall speed is much worse than Fox's. Puff can just start faking moves and messing with you in shield, or hitting your shield then setting up on you WD'ing out close to her when you don't have a laser out. Depends on situations though and is worth experimenting with sometimes.


Uair maybe not so good on DL. Dashes to encourage them to drop while also using some dashes back to set up for Bairs is a good transition tool. But yeah overall that covers it.

His play was alright since it mixed up his laser with going to the platform for a new strategy. Swedish jumped in place to beat incoming approaches so he could have lasered in place or faked then hit Swedish's landing. His play was fine to me but he messed up hitting Swedish's Fair landing lag.


Unless she's hitting you with late Nair or mid Fair or something it's unlikely you'll be getting to CC punish her aerials. CC vs her aerials just keeps her from following up. CC is great vs her tilts and dash attack primarily.

Do you think that sheik on side plat vs grounded falco is a better position for sheik or falco?

What does shooting two lasers in a row (no drift) when you're in max threat range accomplish?

 

[kaptinkillem]

Unless she's hitting you with late Nair or mid Fair or something it's unlikely you'll be getting to CC punish her aerials. CC vs her aerials just keeps her from following up. CC is great vs her tilts and dash attack primarily.

So if I crouch cancel an aerial, what are the general options I want to go for? Roll/spot dodge/dash back?

 

[Dr Peepee]

Do you think that sheik on side plat vs grounded falco is a better position for sheik or falco?

What does shooting two lasers in a row (no drift) when you're in max threat range accomplish?

What stage? I mean I guess super generally speaking it's a somewhat even position based on all sorts of things. I could see either character having advantage right now but it can depend on level and percent and positioning etc.

Shooting two in a row in a place isn't necessarily great but I find that after this point most people will assume you will keep shooting and jump away or move. So if you're close enough this can be an opportunity to land a hit.

So if I crouch cancel an aerial, what are the general options I want to go for? Roll/spot dodge/dash back?

Well if it's a higher aerial or you're closer you could punish with shine or maybe Ftilt or something. If it's more spaced then you can either dash back laser in place or laser in place or attack in depending on what you think Sheik will do. I guess listing it off from base action is do something in place or move back are generally best but you can occasionally go in.

 

[MambaGreenFalco]

What stage? I mean I guess super generally speaking it's a somewhat even position based on all sorts of things. I could see either character having advantage right now but it can depend on level and percent and positioning etc.

Shooting two in a row in a place isn't necessarily great but I find that after this point most people will assume you will keep shooting and jump away or move. So if you're close enough this can be an opportunity to land a hit.


Well if it's a higher aerial or you're closer you could punish with shine or maybe Ftilt or something. If it's more spaced then you can either dash back laser in place or laser in place or attack in depending on what you think Sheik will do. I guess listing it off from base action is do something in place or move back are generally best but you can occasionally go in.

Why isn't it "necessarily" great to shoot two lasers in a row? I've been trying to add more lasers into my gameplay because I tend to act out of 1 laser really often. I'm using it with the same intention of laser dash back; to see how they act after you laser them at that range. But instead of dashing back you get another laser out if you guess correctly/you are more likely still in threat range. I know this isn't something to be spammed but I think adding it in every once in a while would add a lot of depth to my neutral.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Yeah in that case it's fine. It can just be an issue to overdo it if you auto commit to it a lot since people could read it fairly easily and dodge or hit you, but if it's a mixup like you say then it's fine.

 

[MambaGreenFalco]

Yeah in that case it's fine. It can just be an issue to overdo it if you auto commit to it a lot since people could read it fairly easily and dodge or hit you, but if it's a mixup like you say then it's fine.

How do you fake approaches vs marth? It seems hard since you can't do the sh in then dj. Is there a main one you like to use or does it change depending on the range/if you just landed a laser or not? I ask this because I'm still struggling with moving in slightly against marth. I'm just so scared of the sh nair/fair that if I'm moving forward I'm hard committing. I've developed a pretty solid set of tools when moving backwards against marth but moving forwards I feel pretty stuck.

I think what that also boils down to is that I'm worse vs swingy marths than dash back marths.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Dash in(various degrees) laser in place, SH in waveland down/back as well as drift back empty land are some good places to start with moving in or faking to various degrees.

 

[MambaGreenFalco]

Dash in(various degrees) laser in place, SH in waveland down/back as well as drift back empty land are some good places to start with moving in or faking to various degrees.

What should falco do when Marth full hops oos after landing a mid dair on shield and the shine whiffs?

Does marth's full hop bair oos and dair oos completely shut down falco's cross up game on his shield? If i'm already pressuring behind him how can you best beat those options?

If I know the marth is gonna do either nair in place, fade forward nair, or dash attack, how can I skew my options to beat those? Is there something that I can do to discourage/look for all of those or do I have to beat the nair/dash attack individually?

Druggedfox says that Falco should be shine grabbing like 90% of the time during shield pressure, do you agree with that?

How do you think movement should be deliberately practiced with Falco? Do you think practicing just moving with the character around different stages has value or is that not focused and deliberate enough?

 

[jedimeister007]

got some Puff Falco q's.

Whenever I read the way a Puff comes down, I normally just shoot a laser and run away, but I feel like there's a way better punish I can get if I have a solid read. One example I have is if I know a puff has a habit of landing with a fade back nair, https://youtu.be/zhQVzMFghfk?t=37, what could I punish that with? Is it safe to fh over her and try to punish the fade in?

when a puff goes for an upair in the middle of the stage, what's the best way to DI at low%, mid-high% and really high%?

if i start conditioning/seeing a puff go for more shielding, should I opt for a grab to make them do something else, or should I use them shielding as an opportunity to set up pressure? and does stage position change this much?

for punish game i feel like when i make a bad read or miss time an aerial or just mess up that i'm in a very bad position and have to fight out of the corner/take more risks, is it better to shorten my combos and prioritize position, or should I keep going for the riskier reads/harder punishes since the damage is worth it?

a lot of time i see puffs using tons of FH/DJ fade back bairs and uairs to read a jump. if i'm in the corner what's the best way to take advantage of the situation? sorry if this is vague, https://youtu.be/2br10LhRy7Q?t=334 is sort of an example of what i mean.

is it generally better to fight puff horizontally, from above or from below? what're the positives and negatives of each approach?

 

[Dr Peepee]

What should falco do when Marth full hops oos after landing a mid dair on shield and the shine whiffs?

Does marth's full hop bair oos and dair oos completely shut down falco's cross up game on his shield? If i'm already pressuring behind him how can you best beat those options?

If I know the marth is gonna do either nair in place, fade forward nair, or dash attack, how can I skew my options to beat those? Is there something that I can do to discourage/look for all of those or do I have to beat the nair/dash attack individually?

Druggedfox says that Falco should be shine grabbing like 90% of the time during shield pressure, do you agree with that?

How do you think movement should be deliberately practiced with Falco? Do you think practicing just moving with the character around different stages has value or is that not focused and deliberate enough?

If he jumps straight up I suppose you could FH Fair or Nair or something out of the shine. I'd just WD down/toward wherever he's going and set up for Bair though probably.

Part of it may depend on how late you hit your aerial. Early aerials I suppose he could jump away more easily against. Never tested the timing of those things though but I would imagine you can usually Utilt if you're close enough and he doesn't shield DI the other direction or something. If you're already behind him, then doing regular mid nair shine pressure should probably beat it unless staling is involved. Marth's jump oos and aerials are not that quick. You can always double shine or early/earlier aerial or something if you're worried about him doing aerial after shine. You can do other things too like dash back or wd back out of shine, shine grab, or hold down vs the bair and go hit him if it's weak bair or he drifts offstage or doesn't fully drift etc. So different options anyway.

Kinda depends on spacing and such, as if you can dash back to avoid Nair/DA you can then laser or punish two of those options and pressure nair in place. May need to WD back to dodge all or reverse SHL away. If you approach a lot in a certain position then they'd be more likely to Nair in place, but if they're approaching or they have advantage they'd be more likely to go in I'd guess. It comes down to learning to beat each individually and looking for the best positions where you can beat the most on reaction.

I don't agree with that, but if it works for you then that's fine. Staling and buffered rolls would be quite an issue then.

Not focused enough. Playing on all of the stages is good, but you need to do things like make sure you can move off of laser or aerial frame perfectly, or practicing dashing different lengths and observing the length of your dash and what you can threaten out of it, or doing basic tech such as WD or SHL and thinking about the impact the tool has on the opponent as you do it.

got some Puff Falco q's.

Whenever I read the way a Puff comes down, I normally just shoot a laser and run away, but I feel like there's a way better punish I can get if I have a solid read. One example I have is if I know a puff has a habit of landing with a fade back nair, https://youtu.be/zhQVzMFghfk?t=37, what could I punish that with? Is it safe to fh over her and try to punish the fade in?

when a puff goes for an upair in the middle of the stage, what's the best way to DI at low%, mid-high% and really high%?

if i start conditioning/seeing a puff go for more shielding, should I opt for a grab to make them do something else, or should I use them shielding as an opportunity to set up pressure? and does stage position change this much?

for punish game i feel like when i make a bad read or miss time an aerial or just mess up that i'm in a very bad position and have to fight out of the corner/take more risks, is it better to shorten my combos and prioritize position, or should I keep going for the riskier reads/harder punishes since the damage is worth it?

a lot of time i see puffs using tons of FH/DJ fade back bairs and uairs to read a jump. if i'm in the corner what's the best way to take advantage of the situation? sorry if this is vague, https://youtu.be/2br10LhRy7Q?t=334 is sort of an example of what i mean.

is it generally better to fight puff horizontally, from above or from below? what're the positives and negatives of each approach?

For that particular Bair, you could dash in pivot Bair or reverse WD FH Bair Puff. You could also chase down her landing with laser. If you want to go over with FH/DJ you could but generally she can move out of the way in time in my experience.

Low percent you can hold down, some mid percents you can tech I think but otherwise I think up and maybe in front is fairly good it kinda depends, and really high I guess up and wherever center stage/a top platform is so you can retreat or mixup there.

A lot of stuff affects this. Grab is good if you can follow up off of it/the Puff may not DI well or you can hit her if she does avoid a followup. Otherwise grab is a mixup and pressure will often be better. Sometimes waiting a bit for her small shield to shrink some is good to help with poking. It can be tempting to rush in when you have advantage but there are different ways to play the situation. Percent can make followups easier or harder, and also make pressure better or worse. If Uthrow combos better at certain percents like 20 or something, then going for grab there may be a bit better and then going for hits around 100%+ when you could outright kill or combo into kill more often. Just depends.

There's a middle ground to this but it takes a lot of precision. I'd say work out what risks are really worth going for in various situations and otherwise play for position to get a better punish in the near future.

Standing still or shielding the Bair is sometimes best. Sometimes doing stuff like high laser is good. Falcos often freak out a lot when they don't have control and Puffs often try to cover running and jumping out but not hitting where you are, so in that situation I believe standing still was fine for example. Shielding and going back to the edge isn't the worst thing if you're going to die otherwise, and you can WD in or laser OOS depending on what Puff does. Also getting pushed to the edge on YS is super okay.

It was said best in the past that fighting Puff on the same horizontal plane is a bad idea. So being under OR over her is good, but under seems best imo due to Bair and Utilt, while over her Uair can beat your Dair though it seems difficult. Being over her is still good because her jump rises slowly and doesn't go too far up and her moves aren't that big/she needs to hit from the side especially with shield dropping. Plus her jumps diminish in height successively. This is why some people platform camp Puff, but it's also a decent reason to fight her from platforms too. Being below her, she doesn't hit below herself well with her Dair and against wants to shift to hitting you sideways. So horizontally is her best bet, but having laser is pretty good for you too. The downside is that she can hit at the upward diagonal angle that can go over your laser and still benefit her sideways play. This is why laser mixed with Bair is pretty good for horizontal play which is what I do, but it still plays to her strengths. Upside of horizontal play for you is that you have CC but she has it too though that usually helps her less.

 

[Dandelion]

Hi PP, quick questions about Falco vs Peach.

1. How do you typically hold your ground against a Peach floating above the highest laser height? I always end up basically just running away and trying to punish their landing but I often find myself in the corner because of this.

2. Should I ever really challenge their higher on-stage floats or is that situation just really bad for Falco? I feel like the Peach in a high float wins the situation more often than not, and I can't really think of any ways to challenge float directly that aren't extremely dangerous (Like FH nair or FH bair and landing on top plat). Do you have any methods you use against Peach's float that are direct attacks or do you mostly just try to punish her after the float has ended?

 

[Dr Peepee]

1. You can sometimes SH fair them but otherwise you can Bair/Utilt her FC Nair and mid or late Fair. Her early Fair you can back up and pressure so you need to mix it up. Or you can just SHL on a side platform to hit it and/or DJDL onto side platform to hit the float height.

2. You can run FH Nair or something like SH backward DJ Bair or WD in FH Bair for momentum but yeah generally you'll be hitting her on the way down or after she lands unless you do the side platform laser stuff.

 

[AnonymousID]

Hey PP, How should I work around Fox's double jump?

Usually most foxes I play just single jump after being hit by a laser or in shield and you can simply laser/aerial them or pressure them as they land, but I played a fox this other day that would double jump pretty frequently and I got lost. I'm thinking I'm able to cover fox's single jump landing with a laser and if they double jump I can reposition to catch their landing but not sure how practical that is. Also since fox is at a much higher height from a double jump I feel like I'm giving more space since he can drift more toward me with an aerial, but this also leads to him drifting back which makes it much harder to punish. Maybe I should play closer to fox or read the drift? but that seems fairly risky. I'm thinking I can also just read them double jumping with a FH aerial/shine to top platform but not sure how good that is. I guess I just want to know what things I can react to and what things I need to read as well as just stuff to do against fox when he jumps.

 

[AllN]

Anyone got any tips on what to do against Marth mixing up between swinging wildly and playing very passive and baiting shields for grabs?

I was watching a recent set of mine against a Marth at my local, and he was mixing me up hard between wanting to shield and trying to avoid getting grabbed. I started out with the mindset to avoid shielding too much on the ground so he couldn't just raw grab me too much, but he would catch me with with run up fsmash or dash attack a lot if I tried to dashback laser or stay out of his range and just dash dance (which a lot of times would catch me with horrible DI from me just dashing away and I'd literally just get forced into a bad edgeguard situation and die), so eventually I started to shield more to prevent getting hit by the raw swings, but then I would just get grabbed and combod hard.

tl;dr: I don't want to shield because I want to avoid getting grabbed, but then I just get hit with raw fsmashes for not shielding. Any ideas?

 

[Dr Peepee]

Hey PP, How should I work around Fox's double jump?

Usually most foxes I play just single jump after being hit by a laser or in shield and you can simply laser/aerial them or pressure them as they land, but I played a fox this other day that would double jump pretty frequently and I got lost. I'm thinking I'm able to cover fox's single jump landing with a laser and if they double jump I can reposition to catch their landing but not sure how practical that is. Also since fox is at a much higher height from a double jump I feel like I'm giving more space since he can drift more toward me with an aerial, but this also leads to him drifting back which makes it much harder to punish. Maybe I should play closer to fox or read the drift? but that seems fairly risky. I'm thinking I can also just read them double jumping with a FH aerial/shine to top platform but not sure how good that is. I guess I just want to know what things I can react to and what things I need to read as well as just stuff to do against fox when he jumps.

It's a good option that isn't easy to deal with and you lay it out pretty well. FH aerial in is good but you need to play mixups or you could get caught by FH or messed with on drift. One mixup is lasering the FH land and repositioning for DJ like you said, usually dashing in so you gain stage or can pressure their landing. Fighting closer and lasering closer is definitely okay since you can just turnaround Utilt/Bair if they come into you, which forces them to move away and give you stage normally. Laser(they jump) dash in is good because it gets you closer to setting up pivot SH/FH Bair or dash FH Nair/Dair. If you're more worried about approaches then setting up Utilt out of laser may be a better bet but I don't think that's too common assuming they are FH'ing in place such as from shield. I think you have the right idea though and just need to test. If you want to talk about specific positions that may be a good idea.

Anyone got any tips on what to do against Marth mixing up between swinging wildly and playing very passive and baiting shields for grabs?

I was watching a recent set of mine against a Marth at my local, and he was mixing me up hard between wanting to shield and trying to avoid getting grabbed. I started out with the mindset to avoid shielding too much on the ground so he couldn't just raw grab me too much, but he would catch me with with run up fsmash or dash attack a lot if I tried to dashback laser or stay out of his range and just dash dance (which a lot of times would catch me with horrible DI from me just dashing away and I'd literally just get forced into a bad edgeguard situation and die), so eventually I started to shield more to prevent getting hit by the raw swings, but then I would just get grabbed and combod hard.

tl;dr: I don't want to shield because I want to avoid getting grabbed, but then I just get hit with raw fsmashes for not shielding. Any ideas?

Dair OOS is one solution. WD away or even FH away if you have to are good for resetting. Doing a lot of DD isn't in your best interest because you let Marth regain his mobility advantage over you. You can still mix up your lasers with different timings in place and with a dash or two though so there's still good variety for you there.

 

[MambaGreenFalco]

If he jumps straight up I suppose you could FH Fair or Nair or something out of the shine. I'd just WD down/toward wherever he's going and set up for Bair though probably.

Part of it may depend on how late you hit your aerial. Early aerials I suppose he could jump away more easily against. Never tested the timing of those things though but I would imagine you can usually Utilt if you're close enough and he doesn't shield DI the other direction or something. If you're already behind him, then doing regular mid nair shine pressure should probably beat it unless staling is involved. Marth's jump oos and aerials are not that quick. You can always double shine or early/earlier aerial or something if you're worried about him doing aerial after shine. You can do other things too like dash back or wd back out of shine, shine grab, or hold down vs the bair and go hit him if it's weak bair or he drifts offstage or doesn't fully drift etc. So different options anyway.

Kinda depends on spacing and such, as if you can dash back to avoid Nair/DA you can then laser or punish two of those options and pressure nair in place. May need to WD back to dodge all or reverse SHL away. If you approach a lot in a certain position then they'd be more likely to Nair in place, but if they're approaching or they have advantage they'd be more likely to go in I'd guess. It comes down to learning to beat each individually and looking for the best positions where you can beat the most on reaction.

I don't agree with that, but if it works for you then that's fine. Staling and buffered rolls would be quite an issue then.

Not focused enough. Playing on all of the stages is good, but you need to do things like make sure you can move off of laser or aerial frame perfectly, or practicing dashing different lengths and observing the length of your dash and what you can threaten out of it, or doing basic tech such as WD or SHL and thinking about the impact the tool has on the opponent as you do it.


For that particular Bair, you could dash in pivot Bair or reverse WD FH Bair Puff. You could also chase down her landing with laser. If you want to go over with FH/DJ you could but generally she can move out of the way in time in my experience.

Low percent you can hold down, some mid percents you can tech I think but otherwise I think up and maybe in front is fairly good it kinda depends, and really high I guess up and wherever center stage/a top platform is so you can retreat or mixup there.

A lot of stuff affects this. Grab is good if you can follow up off of it/the Puff may not DI well or you can hit her if she does avoid a followup. Otherwise grab is a mixup and pressure will often be better. Sometimes waiting a bit for her small shield to shrink some is good to help with poking. It can be tempting to rush in when you have advantage but there are different ways to play the situation. Percent can make followups easier or harder, and also make pressure better or worse. If Uthrow combos better at certain percents like 20 or something, then going for grab there may be a bit better and then going for hits around 100%+ when you could outright kill or combo into kill more often. Just depends.

There's a middle ground to this but it takes a lot of precision. I'd say work out what risks are really worth going for in various situations and otherwise play for position to get a better punish in the near future.

Standing still or shielding the Bair is sometimes best. Sometimes doing stuff like high laser is good. Falcos often freak out a lot when they don't have control and Puffs often try to cover running and jumping out but not hitting where you are, so in that situation I believe standing still was fine for example. Shielding and going back to the edge isn't the worst thing if you're going to die otherwise, and you can WD in or laser OOS depending on what Puff does. Also getting pushed to the edge on YS is super okay.

It was said best in the past that fighting Puff on the same horizontal plane is a bad idea. So being under OR over her is good, but under seems best imo due to Bair and Utilt, while over her Uair can beat your Dair though it seems difficult. Being over her is still good because her jump rises slowly and doesn't go too far up and her moves aren't that big/she needs to hit from the side especially with shield dropping. Plus her jumps diminish in height successively. This is why some people platform camp Puff, but it's also a decent reason to fight her from platforms too. Being below her, she doesn't hit below herself well with her Dair and against wants to shift to hitting you sideways. So horizontally is her best bet, but having laser is pretty good for you too. The downside is that she can hit at the upward diagonal angle that can go over your laser and still benefit her sideways play. This is why laser mixed with Bair is pretty good for horizontal play which is what I do, but it still plays to her strengths. Upside of horizontal play for you is that you have CC but she has it too though that usually helps her less.

How would you rank cp preference against Peach in a bo5? PS is my number one pick but I've been thinking that bf might be better considering the side platform heights are great to shoot her float and the top plat is great to slow the game down and reset. I normally in tournament just go to ps and ys because early kills are super momentum swings and can win the game single-handedly, but I've just really been missing bf against peach lately because every peach just strikes to fod or dreamland nowadays.

When I'm dashing back against marth at a range where if they da I barely outspace it at the end of my dash back, what can I threaten against that da while I'm moving backwards? Dair feels awkward because of the angle Falco goes at, mid/late bair seems like it trades or loses. Also I'm asking because I've been in a position where i'm dashing back and I know doing laser will lose so basically I'm asking if they do the dash attack at the same timing/start the da immediately after you input the dash back.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hjo9GOHxH2A&

At 7:40 he lasers my attempted laser and then goes in with a laser grab. Was my mistake not recognizing that I would not be able to get out the laser in the first place? Or should I done something better besides shield after I got hit by it?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hjo9GOHxH2A&

At 8:16 when the other falco is on the side platform, do you think it's better to wait under the other plat or close distance? If I want to wait should I just be shooting lasers with slight timing mixups and maybe feinting in slightly to get them to come in?

When the opponent is in a tech position on the top platform and you're in center stage, what can you do to bait getup attack but also still hold the ground if you guess wrong? Maybe full hop and then shine stall below them?

At 8:52 his up tilt beats my nair. Just wanted to point this out cause it's an interaction I've never seen before but his up tilt start up frames avoided my nair which you can see if you go frame by frame. Do you think this is enough of a reason to warrant always dairing at this timing/spacing if you know they're gonna up tilt?

At 9:15 he crosses up my shield with a nair and then shields my sh bair. After you get crossed up at that spacing what should you do? One pretty strong simple mixup could be doing the sh bair/sh turn around laser.

At 13:36 I do that instant dj and space dair on his shield. I thought this would be a good position for me but it's not because the other falco has frame advantage so they get their laser. Is the spaced dair good? I'm thinking it's okay because you can either jab/f tilt if they laser and laser if they don't. Would you have done something else falling on top of Falco's shield?

At 18:02 he still gets out the turn around up tilt after i hit the laser even at such a close range. I'm really surprised that's possible at that range so I'm gonna respect up tilt a little more in the future. This falco I'm playing agiants spams take laser turn around up tilt a lot, so what are the best options against it at this close range?

At 18:23 I land that close laser on his shield. I'm not really sure what to do in this position because my full momentum nair got shine oos and. Should I be looking to do a slight laser forward into a grab? What are the main mixups in that situation if you're the falco in shield?

 

[Dr Peepee]

YS is probably the best because you can still shoot her float sometimes and your kills are super early plus your recovery is best there plus the combos are great and you can still slideoff her stuff pretty well here. PS is probably next due to having beneficial transformations and the blast zones aren't terrible. BF is a bit of a risk since you can't recover well there among other things but it can also give you great defensive and offensive potential in certain positions. DL is better than FD if you can kill, and of course if you can camp well I guess it would be higher than this spot. FD you get punished the hardest and have a harder time challenging float with not much in return so it's the worst to me.
FoD is super weird as a level but I guess it's somewhere around BF/DL for me. Easier side kills are okay and sometimes the platforms can help you but normally they help Peach get in on you imo.

If you see DA coming, you can just shield it and punish OOS. You could also WD back and if they hit you then you're holding down, but otherwise you dodge and can punish or pressure at least. Depending on how early you dash back, you can dash back again to dodge it on reaction to set up pivot Fsmash vs Dair vs run shine or something.

You hit him with weak Nair before landing so he was actionable first. You could have Bair'd on reaction potentially or SH'd toward him to do it. Could have Ftilted if you waited I suppose. Not a great position once you hit that Nair I guess. DJ or waveland back after getting hit by laser are other options instead of shielding, but it depends. At least DJ would've been fine here.

Either way is fine. And yes, but feinting could have less effect over time if you never try to take stage or attack. The timing changes would still be useful.

Yes that's one option. Sometimes you can land on the top platform and shield their getup attack that takes longer to come out if you want to do it that way.

I feel like you were close enough to beat that out so I'm wondering if you were slow on the Nair. If you do suspect Utilt though then Dair or Fsmash or something is fine here.

Looks like you may have been able to shine OOS this particular Nair. Sometimes if you're unsure you can WD away.

Not sure if you got weak Dair or not since you Dair'd a bit early and that might have impacted things. Either way yeah you could have Ftilt'd there. If it looks like they will just hold shield then I do delayed Dair/Nair on their shield or I fall with laser to mix things up there for them.

That's farther away than your other example. You may need to fake with a dash in once and then hit him with dash back dash in aerial or something. You can also just walk up or wait a second before going in and hitting him depending on what you want to cover if you're wrong and how you want to beat Utilt.

If you're in shield there then there's Bair OOS and maybe FH/WD OOS if you suspect the other Falco might wait or be slow but otherwise it's hold shield. You can dash back dash in aerial to get the later hit. You can run up SH to laser/aerial/empty land stuff on them. You can run up grab. You can (walk) WD shine. You could do other stuff like dash DJ over them if you suspect a roll or FH away or something and pressure them as you land if they don't. Lots you can do here including the slight laser forward grab you mentioned.

 

[MambaGreenFalco]

YS is probably the best because you can still shoot her float sometimes and your kills are super early plus your recovery is best there plus the combos are great and you can still slideoff her stuff pretty well here. PS is probably next due to having beneficial transformations and the blast zones aren't terrible. BF is a bit of a risk since you can't recover well there among other things but it can also give you great defensive and offensive potential in certain positions. DL is better than FD if you can kill, and of course if you can camp well I guess it would be higher than this spot. FD you get punished the hardest and have a harder time challenging float with not much in return so it's the worst to me.
FoD is super weird as a level but I guess it's somewhere around BF/DL for me. Easier side kills are okay and sometimes the platforms can help you but normally they help Peach get in on you imo.

If you see DA coming, you can just shield it and punish OOS. You could also WD back and if they hit you then you're holding down, but otherwise you dodge and can punish or pressure at least. Depending on how early you dash back, you can dash back again to dodge it on reaction to set up pivot Fsmash vs Dair vs run shine or something.

You hit him with weak Nair before landing so he was actionable first. You could have Bair'd on reaction potentially or SH'd toward him to do it. Could have Ftilted if you waited I suppose. Not a great position once you hit that Nair I guess. DJ or waveland back after getting hit by laser are other options instead of shielding, but it depends. At least DJ would've been fine here.

Either way is fine. And yes, but feinting could have less effect over time if you never try to take stage or attack. The timing changes would still be useful.

Yes that's one option. Sometimes you can land on the top platform and shield their getup attack that takes longer to come out if you want to do it that way.

I feel like you were close enough to beat that out so I'm wondering if you were slow on the Nair. If you do suspect Utilt though then Dair or Fsmash or something is fine here.

Looks like you may have been able to shine OOS this particular Nair. Sometimes if you're unsure you can WD away.

Not sure if you got weak Dair or not since you Dair'd a bit early and that might have impacted things. Either way yeah you could have Ftilt'd there. If it looks like they will just hold shield then I do delayed Dair/Nair on their shield or I fall with laser to mix things up there for them.

That's farther away than your other example. You may need to fake with a dash in once and then hit him with dash back dash in aerial or something. You can also just walk up or wait a second before going in and hitting him depending on what you want to cover if you're wrong and how you want to beat Utilt.

If you're in shield there then there's Bair OOS and maybe FH/WD OOS if you suspect the other Falco might wait or be slow but otherwise it's hold shield. You can dash back dash in aerial to get the later hit. You can run up SH to laser/aerial/empty land stuff on them. You can run up grab. You can (walk) WD shine. You could do other stuff like dash DJ over them if you suspect a roll or FH away or something and pressure them as you land if they don't. Lots you can do here including the slight laser forward grab you mentioned.

What’s the strength of laser?

 

[Dr Peepee]

Laser slows down the opponent which mitigates Falco's speed disadvantage. It also gives him frame advantage which can give him openings or good positions for pressure etc if he's close enough.

 

[AnonymousID]

Hey PP, I know you've talked about threatening bair when peach is offstage and forcing her onto the ledge. I'm wondering what should I be doing when she's on ledge? I'm thinking I have to read what she's going to do with fsmash/bair or something and maybe keep up the pressure if I miss, but not really sure how reliable this is at finishing off a stock.

Also when you're threatening the bair are there certain reads you can do to actually hit them instead of just having them take ledge. When I play good peaches it seems as if they can always just drift out of range and I'm not sure if I can do anything to capitalize on this for a kill.

Another thing is that there's this thing I like to do against every character which is to shoot a laser so that I land right next to my opponent (just outside of shine range, Ideally I would land inside of them so I can shine but I don't think that's consistent) and then try to JC shine/crossup aerial or immediately dash back if I read that they will grab or something. I like it since I seem to get a lot of openings through this and the laser covers dash back. I just want to know what your thoughts are on it and if its worth going for more often or if its too risky.

Oh yea I also just want to thank you for constantly answering all these questions, your answers have been so helpful!

 

[Dr Peepee]

So if Peach can up-B regrab or let go DJ onstage(which may include waveland) or do roll/GUA/neutral getup on stage, then you can mostly spam Bair or Dair when you see her come up as long as you're out of range of up-B by the time she can do it. She has toad though so she can DJ into you and use that and so sometimes it's better to laser her DJ so you can go for edge pressure or shield toad's attack and then punish Peach. If she does a lot of up-B regrab you can sometimes walk up Dsmash it or SH/go from platform/DJ over the hitbox and grab the edge first, but this isn't terribly reliable in my experience so you'd need to test it if you wanted to threaten her. Also if you're pretty sure she will use a regular non edgehop getup option then you can Fsmash that which can help you get kills, in addition to Dair to Dair.

Peach usually drops float early and has to drop a bit before up-B'ing to the edge, or she's in up-B and weaves back first. If she drops float early you can just turnaround and prepare to WD to edge and beat her there(and hit her if she up-Bs past you while you're hanging on if you think you need to). If she weaves back in up-B you can either SH Dair out there to hit her and end her or you can wait a moment then go for the edge. If she's floating around by the edge then you may need runoff DJ laser to hit her out of it, and there are a lot of fakes that come with that play.

That type of position is a winning position for Falco and it forces the opponent to act, and the fact that you mix up how you play there is even better. You may also find spacing Nair/Dair/Bair to have some advantages for pressure and to reset the situation in a way but now with them having a smaller shield.

And you're very welcome! Sometimes I can't answer so well but I'm glad you've been able to make use of my advice =)

 

[AnonymousID]

Hey, I've been trying to do some of your edgeguarding strats and I think it's working out pretty good. I'm wondering what should I do if I WD back to steal ledge but peach ends up landing on stage. Am I just able to ledgehop aerial her? since I'm thinking she usually won't be too far in stage.

Also do you have any thoughts on how mango played against hungrybox and just everyone in general during GTX? I've never seen falco that fast before and I low key think that's how falco should be played but I'm really curious to hear your opinions.

Finally I want to ask you more questions but every time I have one, I kind of figure it out as I try to articulate my thoughts lol.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Depends on how she lands on stage. You may have to edgedash shine pressure or something, and if you see her going onstage as you go off you could DJ before grabbing the edge to hit her or waveland back onstage depending on spacing and such. But yeah that all depends.

Mango is good

And that's a great thing lol you should be able to answer more and more as you build your foundation.