PPMD's Falco Discussion Thread

[Kotastic]

jedimeister007 I actually had the rare opportunity to play with M2K at Evo 2018 in his room when he wanted Marth practice. I've studied and highly respect M2K's Marth, and I've always wondered how he got away with stuff in the ledge and punish game, the area of expertise he's unparalleled at. I didn't ask him right away, so we played some games and observed a bit. After awhile, I asked some questions when I felt was appropriate, like specific questions about Fox punish game and some mixups regarding ledge. And like pro player stuff like some habits he exploited me with, new info i didn't know about the ledge, etc..

I would suggest to have questions that's tailored to their greatest strengths, observe interesting things in your friendlies interaction, and ask questions here and there. The more specific and succinct, the better the question is.

 

[MambaGreenFalco]

Hey PP do you have any guidelines that you follow for keeping it simple as falco?

 

[Yort]

Dr Peepee
1)

I still struggle quite a bit with players who do stand still (wait) > powershield

I'm having troubles both with players who do it after taking lasers and after landing lag.

What do you think the potential counters are to take laser > wait > react to laser with ps?

I'm thinking that because they are literally just standing in place it gives a great opportunity to take space with a short hop forward or dash forward which could lead into a closer range laser etc.

Next, imagine the position where I get a laser at a medium range and short hop in with the ability to mix up between approaching laser and delayed aerial. The problem i'm having with this is that colbol's marth tends to mix it up and react to short hop forward with uptilt and when I try to sh delayed aerial in to beat his shield he actually sometimes gets a juicy counter attack. What do you think the possible solutions are to this specific problem? It feels as though if I jump in I get boned regardless of what I do.

I'm thinking (after the laser) I should be doing short hop forward > double jump away sometimes, although I don't like that much versus marth, and also be doing dash forward > dash back here to feint an approach and maybe force him to shield, do you think this would be a good possible solution?

https://youtu.be/__Eot7miwRo?t=260
first example
Do you think doing a slight dash forward dash back into another laser would be good in this position? I'm thinking not because i'm cornered and I don't like dashing that much when i'm cornered, while I tend to think two lasers in a row in the corner is a good play.

I'm also hesitant to immediately jump out of the corner with an aerial here because I find marths tend to hold space and counterattack when i'm cornered etc. (Although I think this second laser I did would have gotten hit by fsmash / uptilt regardless so maybe it was a bad play)

https://youtu.be/__Eot7miwRo?t=278
second example
even with the slight dash back I do here to mess up his timing he still waits for long enough to shield on reaction my sh. Do you think I should be going for more delayed aerial plays here (because he might react to the sh forward with shield instead of dashing away like lots of marths do) or dashing for longer etc?
I guess i'm confused as to what I should even be waiting for if I should be waiting for anything at all?

https://youtu.be/__Eot7miwRo?t=374
third example
Here's me losing to him even though he shields my aerial on reaction and doesn't get a good counter attack.
Even though my play should win and get my shield pressure, it didn't work because he powershields the aerial instead and it pushes him so far that he gets a grab that outspaces my shine. What do you think the solution is here for this play that he does, and also just marths who powershield nair grab in general? It's an increasingly common play these days.

My thoughts are to do a medium dash forward after the laser to somewhat overshoot the nair, as he's just standing in place and waiting to shield anyways I can afford to make this play. I am also thinking that maybe empty hop is good here but i'm also hesitant to empty hop vs marth.

Do you think the play of take laser > wait > ps is mainly a play to counter approaching laser and approaching aerial?
If so and if it focuses so much on countering those two things, then it must be sacrificing other good players which counter other things, what would those other things be?

here's a list of potential solutions to powershield that I just want to run by you and see how you feel about them, feel free to ignore this part just kind of writing for my own benefit and hopefully others.


potential power shield solutions:

feel free to comment on these or add more

1: laser (Z) ps
pros high frame window, reflects them quickly and gets you a hit probably.
cons can't react to their powershield, it's a pre-emptive play. Limits your mix up tree afterwards as you have to act oos.

2: delayed laser heavily to mess with the powershielders timing
pros: really messes with people's timing and results in them missing PS. It also messes up their defensive timings as they expect to act oos versus the normal laser timings and thus have a chance of getting stuck in shield / stuck in their oos option they planned to use after PS.
cons: delaying your laser start up by 5-10 frames gives them more time to hit you with a counter attack that may not have worked otherwise. It also allows them to take / give up more space during the extra time it takes for your laser to come out.

3: dashing for longer to mess with his timings and maybe force him to move oos / jump which I can then catch with lasers
pros: as players generally have set timings and situations they like to go for powershield in, dashing for a bit longer during those situations can cause them to commit to another course of action (wd, etc) which you can then laser for free.
cons: if they don't go for powershield attempt you might end up giving up lots of stage and getting pressured because of falco's poor dash speed.

4: low lasers and jumping over the powershield
pro: looks super cool, gives you the ability to hit them out of their post ps option very well. low lasers are also just flat out more difficult to powershield for whatever reason I don't really fully understand why.
con: a: you HAVE to short hop after your laser
b: you have to shoot low / low mid height lasers which keeps you further away from potentially lasering their jump.
c: only works at certain ranges. In particular, it works around medium range with some variance. It works at longer range but you have to dash slightly before committing to the second short hop which is really hard but i'm sure someone could get really good at it.
d: does NOT work at close range (so after most approaching lasers, where you're at highest risk of getting PS punished!)

5: approaching laser / close range HIGH laser into crouch
pro: If they powershield your high approaching laser you can crouch underneath it and shine or do some out of crouch option at them!
cons: the spacing where you approaching laser into shine is actually not so easy to set up as falcos shine is small. If you crouch under their powershield you can't always shine as a result, so maybe if you were good at crouch > aerial or dash out of crouch or crouch > dash grab this would be a powerful option; but even then i'm skeptical unless you're in range to shine.





2)
https://youtu.be/__Eot7miwRo?t=691
What do you think I could have done that would allow coverage on his roll in after this approaching laser? I know the answer seems obvious with wavedash back and all, but as far as I can tell I should never dash back / move much when I land a laser this close (we've talked about this before). I also don't think I should do movement back because if he does anything oos I'm at a high risk of getting hit, but at the same time if I don't ever do any movement back here on a mix up how will I be able to cover this roll? I'm wondering if I just shined it would have hit his roll startup lol.

https://youtu.be/__Eot7miwRo?t=813
Was this laser > nair in here a bad play for all intents and purposes? More specifically, if I land a laser at a medium range versus fox and assume he will full hop after the laser is it always bad to go in? The reason I ask is because I often have seen you and myself and other falcos approach in here and manage to have enough time to uptilt them falling ontop of you with an aerial. It seems like a really reliable play where i'm covering myself. But the timing of it is confusing. In this specific instance it looks like I barely didn't have enough time to uptilt so the shield was good, and maybe even a spotdodge would have been good, but I've seen it work many times where they jump after laser stun and i go in and have time to uptilt them.
Do you think that's a result of colbol jumping very quickly after the laser stun as compared to other foxes who perhaps aren't as fast so I have more time to uptilt?

colbol is a massive fan of shinestall recovery.
https://youtu.be/__Eot7miwRo?t=833
Here, he shine stalls below my run off dj high lasers and double jumps over them when they're over. What do you think I should have done here to account for this shine stall? Should I have just delayed my initial run off dj lasers on a read or should I have just immediately shot more lol? I also think I messed up my timing on the laser to hit his up b to ledge horribly so I should get better at that.

I watched your vod versus colbol from MLG, and I noticed that you would often just keep lasering in place on the stage waiting for him to jump out of his shinestall, while i've had the problem of grabbing ledge / trying to hit the side b too early which colin then just side b's over. Would you still recommend this course of action?

https://youtu.be/__Eot7miwRo?t=846
last question
After he lands from his ps after the first laser, was me going for a dash back laser here a bad idea? I feel like because of the high percentage and the frame disadvantage he was likely to immediately go in here and go for another, which puts my second laser at high risk. I think it's high risk also because if he had acted out of PS better with something like wd shine it would have lost me the set right off the bat .

I guess i'm asking if you think the second laser I did after he PS fhed the first one was risky or if it was an okay play. It almost lost me the set as mentioned above so I was worried it was bad but also if he didn't PS i would have possibly gotten a free grab or crossover dair out of the corner (I think I would have gone for grab)

Thanks for your time, sorry if questions aren't clear feel free to ignore them. Asked lots of colbol questions because I want to beat him consistently.

 

[MambaGreenFalco]

Dr Peepee
1)

I still struggle quite a bit with players who do stand still (wait) > powershield

I'm having troubles both with players who do it after taking lasers and after landing lag.

What do you think the potential counters are to take laser > wait > react to laser with ps?

I'm thinking that because they are literally just standing in place it gives a great opportunity to take space with a short hop forward or dash forward which could lead into a closer range laser etc.

Next, imagine the position where I get a laser at a medium range and short hop in with the ability to mix up between approaching laser and delayed aerial. The problem i'm having with this is that colbol's marth tends to mix it up and react to short hop forward with uptilt and when I try to sh delayed aerial in to beat his shield he actually sometimes gets a juicy counter attack. What do you think the possible solutions are to this specific problem? It feels as though if I jump in I get boned regardless of what I do.

I'm thinking (after the laser) I should be doing short hop forward > double jump away sometimes, although I don't like that much versus marth, and also be doing dash forward > dash back here to feint an approach and maybe force him to shield, do you think this would be a good possible solution?

https://youtu.be/__Eot7miwRo?t=260
first example
Do you think doing a slight dash forward dash back into another laser would be good in this position? I'm thinking not because i'm cornered and I don't like dashing that much when i'm cornered, while I tend to think two lasers in a row in the corner is a good play.

I'm also hesitant to immediately jump out of the corner with an aerial here because I find marths tend to hold space and counterattack when i'm cornered etc. (Although I think this second laser I did would have gotten hit by fsmash / uptilt regardless so maybe it was a bad play)

https://youtu.be/__Eot7miwRo?t=278
second example
even with the slight dash back I do here to mess up his timing he still waits for long enough to shield on reaction my sh. Do you think I should be going for more delayed aerial plays here (because he might react to the sh forward with shield instead of dashing away like lots of marths do) or dashing for longer etc?
I guess i'm confused as to what I should even be waiting for if I should be waiting for anything at all?

https://youtu.be/__Eot7miwRo?t=374
third example
Here's me losing to him even though he shields my aerial on reaction and doesn't get a good counter attack.
Even though my play should win and get my shield pressure, it didn't work because he powershields the aerial instead and it pushes him so far that he gets a grab that outspaces my shine. What do you think the solution is here for this play that he does, and also just marths who powershield nair grab in general? It's an increasingly common play these days.

My thoughts are to do a medium dash forward after the laser to somewhat overshoot the nair, as he's just standing in place and waiting to shield anyways I can afford to make this play. I am also thinking that maybe empty hop is good here but i'm also hesitant to empty hop vs marth.

Do you think the play of take laser > wait > ps is mainly a play to counter approaching laser and approaching aerial?
If so and if it focuses so much on countering those two things, then it must be sacrificing other good players which counter other things, what would those other things be?

here's a list of potential solutions to powershield that I just want to run by you and see how you feel about them, feel free to ignore this part just kind of writing for my own benefit and hopefully others.


potential power shield solutions:

feel free to comment on these or add more

1: laser (Z) ps
pros high frame window, reflects them quickly and gets you a hit probably.
cons can't react to their powershield, it's a pre-emptive play. Limits your mix up tree afterwards as you have to act oos.

2: delayed laser heavily to mess with the powershielders timing
pros: really messes with people's timing and results in them missing PS. It also messes up their defensive timings as they expect to act oos versus the normal laser timings and thus have a chance of getting stuck in shield / stuck in their oos option they planned to use after PS.
cons: delaying your laser start up by 5-10 frames gives them more time to hit you with a counter attack that may not have worked otherwise. It also allows them to take / give up more space during the extra time it takes for your laser to come out.

3: dashing for longer to mess with his timings and maybe force him to move oos / jump which I can then catch with lasers
pros: as players generally have set timings and situations they like to go for powershield in, dashing for a bit longer during those situations can cause them to commit to another course of action (wd, etc) which you can then laser for free.
cons: if they don't go for powershield attempt you might end up giving up lots of stage and getting pressured because of falco's poor dash speed.

4: low lasers and jumping over the powershield
pro: looks super cool, gives you the ability to hit them out of their post ps option very well. low lasers are also just flat out more difficult to powershield for whatever reason I don't really fully understand why.
con: a: you HAVE to short hop after your laser
b: you have to shoot low / low mid height lasers which keeps you further away from potentially lasering their jump.
c: only works at certain ranges. In particular, it works around medium range with some variance. It works at longer range but you have to dash slightly before committing to the second short hop which is really hard but i'm sure someone could get really good at it.
d: does NOT work at close range (so after most approaching lasers, where you're at highest risk of getting PS punished!)

5: approaching laser / close range HIGH laser into crouch
pro: If they powershield your high approaching laser you can crouch underneath it and shine or do some out of crouch option at them!
cons: the spacing where you approaching laser into shine is actually not so easy to set up as falcos shine is small. If you crouch under their powershield you can't always shine as a result, so maybe if you were good at crouch > aerial or dash out of crouch or crouch > dash grab this would be a powerful option; but even then i'm skeptical unless you're in range to shine.





2)
https://youtu.be/__Eot7miwRo?t=691
What do you think I could have done that would allow coverage on his roll in after this approaching laser? I know the answer seems obvious with wavedash back and all, but as far as I can tell I should never dash back / move much when I land a laser this close (we've talked about this before). I also don't think I should do movement back because if he does anything oos I'm at a high risk of getting hit, but at the same time if I don't ever do any movement back here on a mix up how will I be able to cover this roll? I'm wondering if I just shined it would have hit his roll startup lol.

https://youtu.be/__Eot7miwRo?t=813
Was this laser > nair in here a bad play for all intents and purposes? More specifically, if I land a laser at a medium range versus fox and assume he will full hop after the laser is it always bad to go in? The reason I ask is because I often have seen you and myself and other falcos approach in here and manage to have enough time to uptilt them falling ontop of you with an aerial. It seems like a really reliable play where i'm covering myself. But the timing of it is confusing. In this specific instance it looks like I barely didn't have enough time to uptilt so the shield was good, and maybe even a spotdodge would have been good, but I've seen it work many times where they jump after laser stun and i go in and have time to uptilt them.
Do you think that's a result of colbol jumping very quickly after the laser stun as compared to other foxes who perhaps aren't as fast so I have more time to uptilt?

colbol is a massive fan of shinestall recovery.
https://youtu.be/__Eot7miwRo?t=833
Here, he shine stalls below my run off dj high lasers and double jumps over them when they're over. What do you think I should have done here to account for this shine stall? Should I have just delayed my initial run off dj lasers on a read or should I have just immediately shot more lol? I also think I messed up my timing on the laser to hit his up b to ledge horribly so I should get better at that.

I watched your vod versus colbol from MLG, and I noticed that you would often just keep lasering in place on the stage waiting for him to jump out of his shinestall, while i've had the problem of grabbing ledge / trying to hit the side b too early which colin then just side b's over. Would you still recommend this course of action?

https://youtu.be/__Eot7miwRo?t=846
last question
After he lands from his ps after the first laser, was me going for a dash back laser here a bad idea? I feel like because of the high percentage and the frame disadvantage he was likely to immediately go in here and go for another, which puts my second laser at high risk. I think it's high risk also because if he had acted out of PS better with something like wd shine it would have lost me the set right off the bat .

I guess i'm asking if you think the second laser I did after he PS fhed the first one was risky or if it was an okay play. It almost lost me the set as mentioned above so I was worried it was bad but also if he didn't PS i would have possibly gotten a free grab or crossover dair out of the corner (I think I would have gone for grab)

Thanks for your time, sorry if questions aren't clear feel free to ignore them. Asked lots of colbol questions because I want to beat him consistently.

I've heard and experimented with all those answers to ps except the crouch under high ps one. That one is super interesting to me. Although it seems to have the weakness of the marth still just pressing shield grab anyway which means Falco has to do something suboptimal if he wants an easy answer like crouching with the diagonal back of the stick so that you can press a and jab them or something. Have you ever experimented with that option and do you have any other ideas for what to do in that position?

Dr Peepee how do you recommend practicing shield pressure? Rn I'm using 20xx cpus with infinite shield and focusing on hitting my ff and not getting stuck in shine. What other aspects are important to consistent and quality shield pressure?

Also what can falco do when he lands a laser on a non shielding sheik outside of his shine range? Specifically against sheik's jab?

 

[Dr Peepee]

Hey PP do you have any guidelines that you follow for keeping it simple as falco?

don't over DD(1-2 dashes at a time usually), make decisions so I'm not just mindlessly lasering in place, keep in mind how to hit and kill them at all times

Dr Peepee
1)

I still struggle quite a bit with players who do stand still (wait) > powershield

I'm having troubles both with players who do it after taking lasers and after landing lag.

What do you think the potential counters are to take laser > wait > react to laser with ps?

I'm thinking that because they are literally just standing in place it gives a great opportunity to take space with a short hop forward or dash forward which could lead into a closer range laser etc.

Next, imagine the position where I get a laser at a medium range and short hop in with the ability to mix up between approaching laser and delayed aerial. The problem i'm having with this is that colbol's marth tends to mix it up and react to short hop forward with uptilt and when I try to sh delayed aerial in to beat his shield he actually sometimes gets a juicy counter attack. What do you think the possible solutions are to this specific problem? It feels as though if I jump in I get boned regardless of what I do.

I'm thinking (after the laser) I should be doing short hop forward > double jump away sometimes, although I don't like that much versus marth, and also be doing dash forward > dash back here to feint an approach and maybe force him to shield, do you think this would be a good possible solution?

https://youtu.be/__Eot7miwRo?t=260
first example
Do you think doing a slight dash forward dash back into another laser would be good in this position? I'm thinking not because i'm cornered and I don't like dashing that much when i'm cornered, while I tend to think two lasers in a row in the corner is a good play.

I'm also hesitant to immediately jump out of the corner with an aerial here because I find marths tend to hold space and counterattack when i'm cornered etc. (Although I think this second laser I did would have gotten hit by fsmash / uptilt regardless so maybe it was a bad play)

https://youtu.be/__Eot7miwRo?t=278
second example
even with the slight dash back I do here to mess up his timing he still waits for long enough to shield on reaction my sh. Do you think I should be going for more delayed aerial plays here (because he might react to the sh forward with shield instead of dashing away like lots of marths do) or dashing for longer etc?
I guess i'm confused as to what I should even be waiting for if I should be waiting for anything at all?

https://youtu.be/__Eot7miwRo?t=374
third example
Here's me losing to him even though he shields my aerial on reaction and doesn't get a good counter attack.
Even though my play should win and get my shield pressure, it didn't work because he powershields the aerial instead and it pushes him so far that he gets a grab that outspaces my shine. What do you think the solution is here for this play that he does, and also just marths who powershield nair grab in general? It's an increasingly common play these days.

My thoughts are to do a medium dash forward after the laser to somewhat overshoot the nair, as he's just standing in place and waiting to shield anyways I can afford to make this play. I am also thinking that maybe empty hop is good here but i'm also hesitant to empty hop vs marth.

Do you think the play of take laser > wait > ps is mainly a play to counter approaching laser and approaching aerial?
If so and if it focuses so much on countering those two things, then it must be sacrificing other good players which counter other things, what would those other things be?

here's a list of potential solutions to powershield that I just want to run by you and see how you feel about them, feel free to ignore this part just kind of writing for my own benefit and hopefully others.


potential power shield solutions:

feel free to comment on these or add more

1: laser (Z) ps
pros high frame window, reflects them quickly and gets you a hit probably.
cons can't react to their powershield, it's a pre-emptive play. Limits your mix up tree afterwards as you have to act oos.

2: delayed laser heavily to mess with the powershielders timing
pros: really messes with people's timing and results in them missing PS. It also messes up their defensive timings as they expect to act oos versus the normal laser timings and thus have a chance of getting stuck in shield / stuck in their oos option they planned to use after PS.
cons: delaying your laser start up by 5-10 frames gives them more time to hit you with a counter attack that may not have worked otherwise. It also allows them to take / give up more space during the extra time it takes for your laser to come out.

3: dashing for longer to mess with his timings and maybe force him to move oos / jump which I can then catch with lasers
pros: as players generally have set timings and situations they like to go for powershield in, dashing for a bit longer during those situations can cause them to commit to another course of action (wd, etc) which you can then laser for free.
cons: if they don't go for powershield attempt you might end up giving up lots of stage and getting pressured because of falco's poor dash speed.

4: low lasers and jumping over the powershield
pro: looks super cool, gives you the ability to hit them out of their post ps option very well. low lasers are also just flat out more difficult to powershield for whatever reason I don't really fully understand why.
con: a: you HAVE to short hop after your laser
b: you have to shoot low / low mid height lasers which keeps you further away from potentially lasering their jump.
c: only works at certain ranges. In particular, it works around medium range with some variance. It works at longer range but you have to dash slightly before committing to the second short hop which is really hard but i'm sure someone could get really good at it.
d: does NOT work at close range (so after most approaching lasers, where you're at highest risk of getting PS punished!)

5: approaching laser / close range HIGH laser into crouch
pro: If they powershield your high approaching laser you can crouch underneath it and shine or do some out of crouch option at them!
cons: the spacing where you approaching laser into shine is actually not so easy to set up as falcos shine is small. If you crouch under their powershield you can't always shine as a result, so maybe if you were good at crouch > aerial or dash out of crouch or crouch > dash grab this would be a powerful option; but even then i'm skeptical unless you're in range to shine.





2)
https://youtu.be/__Eot7miwRo?t=691
What do you think I could have done that would allow coverage on his roll in after this approaching laser? I know the answer seems obvious with wavedash back and all, but as far as I can tell I should never dash back / move much when I land a laser this close (we've talked about this before). I also don't think I should do movement back because if he does anything oos I'm at a high risk of getting hit, but at the same time if I don't ever do any movement back here on a mix up how will I be able to cover this roll? I'm wondering if I just shined it would have hit his roll startup lol.

https://youtu.be/__Eot7miwRo?t=813
Was this laser > nair in here a bad play for all intents and purposes? More specifically, if I land a laser at a medium range versus fox and assume he will full hop after the laser is it always bad to go in? The reason I ask is because I often have seen you and myself and other falcos approach in here and manage to have enough time to uptilt them falling ontop of you with an aerial. It seems like a really reliable play where i'm covering myself. But the timing of it is confusing. In this specific instance it looks like I barely didn't have enough time to uptilt so the shield was good, and maybe even a spotdodge would have been good, but I've seen it work many times where they jump after laser stun and i go in and have time to uptilt them.
Do you think that's a result of colbol jumping very quickly after the laser stun as compared to other foxes who perhaps aren't as fast so I have more time to uptilt?

colbol is a massive fan of shinestall recovery.
https://youtu.be/__Eot7miwRo?t=833
Here, he shine stalls below my run off dj high lasers and double jumps over them when they're over. What do you think I should have done here to account for this shine stall? Should I have just delayed my initial run off dj lasers on a read or should I have just immediately shot more lol? I also think I messed up my timing on the laser to hit his up b to ledge horribly so I should get better at that.

I watched your vod versus colbol from MLG, and I noticed that you would often just keep lasering in place on the stage waiting for him to jump out of his shinestall, while i've had the problem of grabbing ledge / trying to hit the side b too early which colin then just side b's over. Would you still recommend this course of action?

https://youtu.be/__Eot7miwRo?t=846
last question
After he lands from his ps after the first laser, was me going for a dash back laser here a bad idea? I feel like because of the high percentage and the frame disadvantage he was likely to immediately go in here and go for another, which puts my second laser at high risk. I think it's high risk also because if he had acted out of PS better with something like wd shine it would have lost me the set right off the bat .

I guess i'm asking if you think the second laser I did after he PS fhed the first one was risky or if it was an okay play. It almost lost me the set as mentioned above so I was worried it was bad but also if he didn't PS i would have possibly gotten a free grab or crossover dair out of the corner (I think I would have gone for grab)

Thanks for your time, sorry if questions aren't clear feel free to ignore them. Asked lots of colbol questions because I want to beat him consistently.

Laser to dash in wait then attack, laser wait then attack, laser SH in waveland down/back then attack would all work vs this Utilt strategy. You can also slight laser forward or just early Dair and cross him up. You could also connect the first laser close to him so you could hit him before the Utilt comes out. Vs PS be sure to shoot lower so he is unlikely to PS and if he does PS you can jump over it and hit him.

That play you did could've been okay if you dashed back instead of turned around. You would have dodged his Fair. Anyway if you shot lower/farther away it could help and your idea is fine. You could mix that with a bit of DD and dash FH over him to take top platform since it's DL, and this could work okay on BF too.

You could do that, but these deep laser approaches are very slow and quite reactable as a result. So aerials are good to mix this up. You also attack from quite far so he only had to be worried about laser. It looks between this and last situation that after getting shot once he doesn't seem to move so much.

You again attacked from pretty far and that looks like the issue to me. Empty hop can be great vs Marth but the risk is real too as you said.

Why is ZPS preemptive?

2.

Since it's Fox, you could dash back and dodge OOS options there. But shine would either hit him or keep him in shield there.

That spacing is a bit questionable since he has so much time to dodge your approach and especially out of tech he will be looking to dodge when possible. You need to land earlier/he needs to jump later to get Utilt out or anything so yeah it depends on him which is why I stopped going for it. Fox could jump preemptively and be relatively safe no matter what. That is UNLESS you begin mixing in dash FH Nair/Dair or dash FH DJ to go over him and Dair. Then he may begin waiting to come OOS and that may open up more of what you're looking for.

If you changed up your laser heights your second laser could have hit him. You also could delay your SHL/runoff DJ DL. After missing laser you could either cover edge with delayed laser to cover that angle then play it from there, or you could dash SH DJ Dair to kill him which I think is possible here. There's more to experiment with here but I think that's a good start.

I don't think that dash back laser was necessarily bad here since he FH'd over what could have been another laser from you. So basically you had time to get it out, but you had to shoot low or medium height to beat his next approach. There was space for it as well. Had he done WD after the first PS then yeah I don't think dash back laser would have been nearly as good.

Dr Peepee how do you recommend practicing shield pressure? Rn I'm using 20xx cpus with infinite shield and focusing on hitting my ff and not getting stuck in shine. What other aspects are important to consistent and quality shield pressure?

Also what can falco do when he lands a laser on a non shielding sheik outside of his shine range? Specifically against sheik's jab?

Practice beating their shield grab/OOS options once you get better at hitting the shield in various ways. You can do running approaches so you also get practice going from neutral to pressure like in real matches as well.

Ftilt at mid or high percent, Fsmash if you think she will attack like that, dash back/wait then attack if you're unsure or want to manipulate them, laser again for damage or pressure, then other stuff like JC grab or shine depending on exactly how far you are.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Missed a question because I stopped getting notified here for some reason. I will answer that now and didn't want it to get missed in the edit so I'm gonna double post.

Hey Dr Peepee ,

I watched your interview with Tafo last week and that pushed me to finally stop just lurking on smashboards and finally make an account. Very excited for your return

This was a message I originally posted in the falco discord, but after thinking about it, I would much rather see what you thought about it since I have the utmost respect for you as a player and your ability to relax yourself in high stress situations. The following is about my issue with maintaining my composure when playing a certain type of player.

Discord message:
So, I have something to say about this MU and am wondering if there are others who can sympathize.. I have a friend I’ve been playing with the past 4 years or so who’s a falcon main. We have developed a friendly rivalry between us and since we started playing I’ve improved a lot.. I used to get 4 stocked by him consistently, he would always read my techs and it would completely demoralize me.. I had never been read so hard like that before.
Now, even though we’re pretty much even skill- wise, it doesn’t change how I feel when we play. He’s really read heavy (as many falcon mains are) and rides with momentum really really well. He’s one of the few people who when I play them, I feel myself getting triggered at any stock they take from me, even if I’m in the lead! And it’s like, even though I don’t verbalize it, I can tell that he picks up on it and capitalizes on it.. he can just tell I feel defeated or frustrated, and it just makes me even more flustered.. it’s a vicious cycle. I’ve looked into relaxation techniques, meditation, deep breathing, and only focusing on my breathing and my physical body, I’ve done research on the inner game of tennis, have tried to practice the bounce-hop method, but this tendency I have to overthink things and be too hard on myself while playing opponents like this is just so powerful, especially while we’re in tournament. It’s like he brings out this self-loathing that I have deep inside whenever we play. I’m not sure how else to explain it.


What do you think about all this? Does it sound like.. something you’ve heard others experience before? Do you know of anything that has been able to help others with issues like this?
Here’s an example of one of our sets. I’m playing fox in the set but plan on going falco next time we play in tournament since I feel like I understand his punish game more. I think the mental block still shows in this set though.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=81bRcw6beww

It sounds kind of like how my brother and I are. There are many games within games that are played, and we read each other's psychology well since we know it so well.

There is another method to improving outside of what you have tried, even though those other things are great. It's psychological, and it involves getting to the heart of those thoughts and feelings you have in those difficult moments. It can be good when meditating to step into those experiences and ask yourself what you feel exactly and why. Do you feel scared he thinks less of you? Maybe worried he will see you still think he is much stronger than you like when you started? Whatever the base thought, find it. Then figure out why it matters so much to you. Maybe you have always had these insecurities and it manifests strongly here, or maybe you don't get this way any other time and you have to hunt farther back in time for a formative experience. The important thing is get to the root, accept whatever base hurt there is, then make peace with it. It takes time. Then you begin thinking about what you want to put in place of those negative thoughts when you get challenged. It's not just about removing negative thoughts but inserting new positive ones. Then you have to train to make the positive thoughts stick. It's quite a process, but very rewarding as you can imagine.

I recommend reading "the six pillars of self-esteem" as a way to get more familiar with this process and learn about some deeper psychology. It helped me in this way.

 

[Yort]

don't over DD(1-2 dashes at a time usually), make decisions so I'm not just mindlessly lasering in place, keep in mind how to hit and kill them at all times


Laser to dash in wait then attack, laser wait then attack, laser SH in waveland down/back then attack would all work vs this Utilt strategy. You can also slight laser forward or just early Dair and cross him up. You could also connect the first laser close to him so you could hit him before the Utilt comes out. Vs PS be sure to shoot lower so he is unlikely to PS and if he does PS you can jump over it and hit him.

That play you did could've been okay if you dashed back instead of turned around. You would have dodged his Fair. Anyway if you shot lower/farther away it could help and your idea is fine. You could mix that with a bit of DD and dash FH over him to take top platform since it's DL, and this could work okay on BF too.

You could do that, but these deep laser approaches are very slow and quite reactable as a result. So aerials are good to mix this up. You also attack from quite far so he only had to be worried about laser. It looks between this and last situation that after getting shot once he doesn't seem to move so much.

You again attacked from pretty far and that looks like the issue to me. Empty hop can be great vs Marth but the risk is real too as you said.

Why is ZPS preemptive?

2.

Since it's Fox, you could dash back and dodge OOS options there. But shine would either hit him or keep him in shield there.

That spacing is a bit questionable since he has so much time to dodge your approach and especially out of tech he will be looking to dodge when possible. You need to land earlier/he needs to jump later to get Utilt out or anything so yeah it depends on him which is why I stopped going for it. Fox could jump preemptively and be relatively safe no matter what. That is UNLESS you begin mixing in dash FH Nair/Dair or dash FH DJ to go over him and Dair. Then he may begin waiting to come OOS and that may open up more of what you're looking for.

If you changed up your laser heights your second laser could have hit him. You also could delay your SHL/runoff DJ DL. After missing laser you could either cover edge with delayed laser to cover that angle then play it from there, or you could dash SH DJ Dair to kill him which I think is possible here. There's more to experiment with here but I think that's a good start.

I don't think that dash back laser was necessarily bad here since he FH'd over what could have been another laser from you. So basically you had time to get it out, but you had to shoot low or medium height to beat his next approach. There was space for it as well. Had he done WD after the first PS then yeah I don't think dash back laser would have been nearly as good.


Practice beating their shield grab/OOS options once you get better at hitting the shield in various ways. You can do running approaches so you also get practice going from neutral to pressure like in real matches as well.

Ftilt at mid or high percent, Fsmash if you think she will attack like that, dash back/wait then attack if you're unsure or want to manipulate them, laser again for damage or pressure, then other stuff like JC grab or shine depending on exactly how far you are.

I think that Z PS is pre-emptive at close range (after approaching laser). I don't know the specific frame data or anything but it doesn't seem possible to react to the animation of them getting a powershield when there isn't that 3-5 frames of travel time at a medium / long range. On top of this you often end up pre emptively deciding your action with the decision point right before you land (at-least I do), and that can reduce reaction speed as you'd have to shift your course of action immediately. Just thoughts little testing yet though.

 

[Wiggy Jiggy Jed]

What do you think are Falco's best and worst stages in the Doc matchup and why? I was once told that Dreamland is really good as Doc's Fair kills much later, and you have more room to camp him out. What are your thoughts?

Proper way to edgegaurd Doc? I've had great success with Up B stalls (without shine, as to not accidentally hit him), but are there other things I should be utilizing?

 

[MambaGreenFalco]

don't over DD(1-2 dashes at a time usually), make decisions so I'm not just mindlessly lasering in place, keep in mind how to hit and kill them at all times


Laser to dash in wait then attack, laser wait then attack, laser SH in waveland down/back then attack would all work vs this Utilt strategy. You can also slight laser forward or just early Dair and cross him up. You could also connect the first laser close to him so you could hit him before the Utilt comes out. Vs PS be sure to shoot lower so he is unlikely to PS and if he does PS you can jump over it and hit him.

That play you did could've been okay if you dashed back instead of turned around. You would have dodged his Fair. Anyway if you shot lower/farther away it could help and your idea is fine. You could mix that with a bit of DD and dash FH over him to take top platform since it's DL, and this could work okay on BF too.

You could do that, but these deep laser approaches are very slow and quite reactable as a result. So aerials are good to mix this up. You also attack from quite far so he only had to be worried about laser. It looks between this and last situation that after getting shot once he doesn't seem to move so much.

You again attacked from pretty far and that looks like the issue to me. Empty hop can be great vs Marth but the risk is real too as you said.

Why is ZPS preemptive?

2.

Since it's Fox, you could dash back and dodge OOS options there. But shine would either hit him or keep him in shield there.

That spacing is a bit questionable since he has so much time to dodge your approach and especially out of tech he will be looking to dodge when possible. You need to land earlier/he needs to jump later to get Utilt out or anything so yeah it depends on him which is why I stopped going for it. Fox could jump preemptively and be relatively safe no matter what. That is UNLESS you begin mixing in dash FH Nair/Dair or dash FH DJ to go over him and Dair. Then he may begin waiting to come OOS and that may open up more of what you're looking for.

If you changed up your laser heights your second laser could have hit him. You also could delay your SHL/runoff DJ DL. After missing laser you could either cover edge with delayed laser to cover that angle then play it from there, or you could dash SH DJ Dair to kill him which I think is possible here. There's more to experiment with here but I think that's a good start.

I don't think that dash back laser was necessarily bad here since he FH'd over what could have been another laser from you. So basically you had time to get it out, but you had to shoot low or medium height to beat his next approach. There was space for it as well. Had he done WD after the first PS then yeah I don't think dash back laser would have been nearly as good.


Practice beating their shield grab/OOS options once you get better at hitting the shield in various ways. You can do running approaches so you also get practice going from neutral to pressure like in real matches as well.

Ftilt at mid or high percent, Fsmash if you think she will attack like that, dash back/wait then attack if you're unsure or want to manipulate them, laser again for damage or pressure, then other stuff like JC grab or shine depending on exactly how far you are.

don't over DD(1-2 dashes at a time usually), make decisions so I'm not just mindlessly lasering in place, keep in mind how to hit and kill them at all times

How do these rules apply to Falco vs the rest of the cast? They seem pretty universal.

How do you recommend practicing hitting l cancels with 100% consistency?

 

[Dr Peepee]

What do you think are Falco's best and worst stages in the Doc matchup and why? I was once told that Dreamland is really good as Doc's Fair kills much later, and you have more room to camp him out. What are your thoughts?

Proper way to edgegaurd Doc? I've had great success with Up B stalls (without shine, as to not accidentally hit him), but are there other things I should be utilizing?

Yeah I guess that's true about DL. He does get more platform space to set up pills though. FD is the worst I guess due to CG. It's a pretty bad matchup for Doc so I don't think thinking of it beyond that is too important.

Going out with Bair/Dair when needed can be helpful, as can hitting Dair on his up-B. Your stalls are good too. Hitting him in his down B lag can be good, and hitting him through pills with Bair can be good.

 

[roysrevengefgc]

Thank you very much! And you can ask me whatever, I'm always looking to help motivated people =)

When you return to Melee will you also return to PM or just keep it melee? IK some pro teams have contracts that prevent players from playing modded/illegal games (Chillin said TL doesnt allow him to stream or play PM anymore) and ik you had interest before in joining the backroom dev team (when they existed) to give some insight. More pro melee players playing PM would def help

 

[Dr Peepee]

I was thinking about joining the old PM team, but I realized it would be a lot to get my ideas across and I could pick up other tasks in Melee or elsewhere that could benefit my ideas as well. I doubt I could stream it, and the current build isn't interesting to me to play, so I don't think I would play PM.

 

[Yort]

don't over DD(1-2 dashes at a time usually), make decisions so I'm not just mindlessly lasering in place, keep in mind how to hit and kill them at all times


Laser to dash in wait then attack, laser wait then attack, laser SH in waveland down/back then attack would all work vs this Utilt strategy. You can also slight laser forward or just early Dair and cross him up. You could also connect the first laser close to him so you could hit him before the Utilt comes out. Vs PS be sure to shoot lower so he is unlikely to PS and if he does PS you can jump over it and hit him.

That play you did could've been okay if you dashed back instead of turned around. You would have dodged his Fair. Anyway if you shot lower/farther away it could help and your idea is fine. You could mix that with a bit of DD and dash FH over him to take top platform since it's DL, and this could work okay on BF too.

You could do that, but these deep laser approaches are very slow and quite reactable as a result. So aerials are good to mix this up. You also attack from quite far so he only had to be worried about laser. It looks between this and last situation that after getting shot once he doesn't seem to move so much.

You again attacked from pretty far and that looks like the issue to me. Empty hop can be great vs Marth but the risk is real too as you said.

Why is ZPS preemptive?

2.

Since it's Fox, you could dash back and dodge OOS options there. But shine would either hit him or keep him in shield there.

That spacing is a bit questionable since he has so much time to dodge your approach and especially out of tech he will be looking to dodge when possible. You need to land earlier/he needs to jump later to get Utilt out or anything so yeah it depends on him which is why I stopped going for it. Fox could jump preemptively and be relatively safe no matter what. That is UNLESS you begin mixing in dash FH Nair/Dair or dash FH DJ to go over him and Dair. Then he may begin waiting to come OOS and that may open up more of what you're looking for.

If you changed up your laser heights your second laser could have hit him. You also could delay your SHL/runoff DJ DL. After missing laser you could either cover edge with delayed laser to cover that angle then play it from there, or you could dash SH DJ Dair to kill him which I think is possible here. There's more to experiment with here but I think that's a good start.

I don't think that dash back laser was necessarily bad here since he FH'd over what could have been another laser from you. So basically you had time to get it out, but you had to shoot low or medium height to beat his next approach. There was space for it as well. Had he done WD after the first PS then yeah I don't think dash back laser would have been nearly as good.

Practice beating their shield grab/OOS options once you get better at hitting the shield in various ways. You can do running approaches so you also get practice going from neutral to pressure like in real matches as well.

Ftilt at mid or high percent, Fsmash if you think she will attack like that, dash back/wait then attack if you're unsure or want to manipulate them, laser again for damage or pressure, then other stuff like JC grab or shine depending on exactly how far you are.

"Anyway if you shot lower/farther away it could help and your idea is fine. You could mix that with a bit of DD and dash FH over him to take top platform since it's DL, and this could work okay on BF too. "
how would shooting further away help here? Is it just so that he can't get as good of a powershield punish?

Is the point of doing laser > wait > attack to mess up his timing and hit him for his cop out action after realizing I won't go for usual laser timing?

what's the difference in doing 1-2 dashes into attack after laser versus wait and then attack after laser? (assuming i'm attacking at the same timing just one has dashes involved).

When using nair to read people's jumps, is there a certain range you have in mind? I feel like this play is more of a closer range play because at mid ranges the time it takes to reach them with the nair is often too long before they can jump away; for example I think using nair to read jumps is mainly a thing you do when they're holding shield or forced to dodge and you have time to pressure w/ nair.

"If you changed up your laser heights your second laser could have hit him. "
Curious, do you mean the second laser in the run off DJ laser sequence? So if I did two higher lasers instead of one high one medium height after my run off dj lasers? Or are you talking about the standing laser I did afterwards in particular (in which case I thought timing was the main problem).

just how drastically does shooting lowest laser reduce their ability to powershield the laser?

 

[Dr Peepee]

Yes, and also gives you time to act in case it is PS'd. I'm not saying that's the only solution, but it's one.

That's right, and it leads to them giving you your old timing punishes back, or makes them do something that avoids both timings but is often more obviously exploitable such as WD back.

The difference is you keep your tempo higher, and also threaten out of the movement if two dashes. If one dash then it's probably a dash back, which as Mango shows works well because the opponent feels the benefit of increased space between the two of you.

Nair you can either hit someone just as they leave shield, or as they rise. Both can work if you're going for a crossup early Nair, but some spacings are safer than others. If you're doing a middle hit Nair you'd need to hit them just as they are in jumpsquat or you'll whiff, but that's still a fine option too. You want to be able to FF the Nair so the starting positions are closer than what you normally do, but of course not so close you could hit shine. Somewhere around jab range is a good start, Ftilt range is fine too, beyond that a bit is okay but not too much iirc.

That's what I mean. Two higher, but the second still slightly lower than the first. There's a lot of variability in lasers so the higher one is exploitable too but changing them up counter different things.

Shooting low makes it one frame(which I never see anyone hit besides a Marth doing dash back PS) and the regular heights could vary but it's definitely 2-3.

 

[Wiggy Jiggy Jed]

Thank you! I hope you don't mind if I ask multiple questions - I have a ton of respect for you and I think this is a great resource.

What do you think about approaching a Marth and a Puff that's in the corner, depending on if they're shielding or not?

This question came to mind after watching Ginger, where he said that it's good to approach a Marth that's in the corner because his options (mainly his DD) are very limited, and with his bad shield you can pressure him (and if your pressure's decent you shouldn't get grabbed). He also said that you don't wanna approach Puff in the same scenario because Puff's options are not so limited (she can jump off stage and not care).

I actually asked him about both characters shielding in the corner - if it would still be good to approach Marth but bad to approach Puff? His response was largely the same, saying that Puff can still just jump off stage.

So I agree with him mostly, but I'm still not 100% convinced that it's a bad idea to approach a Puff shielding in the corner. Especially because I think there are ways you can cause your opponent to be more likely to hold shield, and in those instances, it seems very similar to a Marth, as they both just want to grab you.

I'd love to hear what you have to say about this.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Ask away!

You can't always guarantee a shield, and if you never approach when they're not shielding, they won't feel as threatened by you.

Making both characters shield is good, and you know Puff isn't as likely to move forward and can't go that high all at once, so that does help you out. To catch her going offstage you may need to be closer before you attack, or you just accept she will go off sometimes and get better at edgeguarding. The thing about them shielding is it can also depend on how much space they have and how close you are. If they can both easily WD back grab and you're at the tip of Nair range and attack, you're much more likely to whiff than if you're say Ftilt range and they're backed up with no room to WD.

 

[ibex94]

Missed a question because I stopped getting notified here for some reason. I will answer that now and didn't want it to get missed in the edit so I'm gonna double post.




It sounds kind of like how my brother and I are. There are many games within games that are played, and we read each other's psychology well since we know it so well.

There is another method to improving outside of what you have tried, even though those other things are great. It's psychological, and it involves getting to the heart of those thoughts and feelings you have in those difficult moments. It can be good when meditating to step into those experiences and ask yourself what you feel exactly and why. Do you feel scared he thinks less of you? Maybe worried he will see you still think he is much stronger than you like when you started? Whatever the base thought, find it. Then figure out why it matters so much to you. Maybe you have always had these insecurities and it manifests strongly here, or maybe you don't get this way any other time and you have to hunt farther back in time for a formative experience. The important thing is get to the root, accept whatever base hurt there is, then make peace with it. It takes time. Then you begin thinking about what you want to put in place of those negative thoughts when you get challenged. It's not just about removing negative thoughts but inserting new positive ones. Then you have to train to make the positive thoughts stick. It's quite a process, but very rewarding as you can imagine.

I recommend reading "the six pillars of self-esteem" as a way to get more familiar with this process and learn about some deeper psychology. It helped me in this way.

Dr Peepee
Thank you so much for your response. You have no idea how helpful and encouraging your advice was!! I'll buy that book, read it, see how I can apply those techniques, and I'll be coming back here to let you know of any progress I make in this area.

 

[jedimeister007]

i recently was able to play a very good player (medz) on netplay and came across some issues. Overall I felt my decision making was alright when we first started the matches, however he started getting more powershields into punishes, reading my approaches and just controlling the match more (he was playing marth fyi). What i found myself doing is not knowing how best to approach him and was over dash dancing or making things more complex than they needed to be. I was asking myself stuff like "should I be looking at ways to discourage powershielding, or should I try baiting him in more? How are my edge guards? Is my DI the best for his combos? etc" which seemed helpful in the moment, but in retrospect i realize my plan was pretty flawed for playing higher level players and most things i thought were good ideas turned out to be more gimmicks than anything. What should i do to not get flustered or lost feeling when playing someone much better than me? it's hard to even recall specific situations in the matches we played since I felt so overwhelmed and feel like i stopped growing and ruined a really good opportunity for improvement :/


also Kotastic thank you for the advice going into Smash Camp i really appreciated it

 

[Dr Peepee]

So I think you started to develop some ideas about what to do, and my suggestion is to just pick an idea and test it out against the opponent. A big thing with playing people above your level is you can't apply your full game plan like you normally would, so you try different things and learn where you can, as well as work on your DI/etc game. So that powershield idea you had could've been something you consciously thought about applying going into a game and between stocks and then evaluating how that went as best as you can.

 

[d_lidz]

Dr Peepee
Hey PP, hope you are well lately. Was hoping to gain some insight on laser>dd mixups. I've been really trying to focus on adding this into my ground game and focusing on it a bit more. My issue is it often feels like I'm using it arbitrarily. I go for a laser and pick a dd timing, and it almost feels at random and without a ton of purpose. Is there a piece of this that I am missing or do I just need to be better at watching and remembering how my opponents react to the stimulus of laser vs laser dd? At what point should I be making my decision too engage/disengage during the dd? All of it feels very ambiguous at the moment.

Also, how do you feel about FoD as a counterpick vs Marth in contrast to Dream Land? I have a much easier time cornering him on FoD and limiting his options. I know top plat is generally stronger on Dream Land but he gets plenty of room to maneuver which is uncomfortable for me. Should I put more time into Dream Land as my main counterpick or stick with FoD?

 

[Dr Peepee]

To answer this in part, we need to think about the purpose of dash and of laser. Laser gives you frame advantage for a bit to set up an immediate SH attack. Dash forward presents that threat as it is linked to SH aerial, and dash back relieves that threat as it moves away. The spacing you do this at matters too, so if you're within jab range, then both could still be really good since the opponent would have to guess after the laser comes out and not wait for the dash. If you were farther away then they would be able to react to dashes since they have more space and therefore time. I think starting here is good, as is thinking of using no more than 1-2 dashes before making a decision so you can be sure you're being productive. A decision doesn't mean an approach or even an attack, it could be a wait and confirm what the opponent does, but it does mean you do something. Putting these decisions around means you're forced to start doing set plays with intent.

I think FoD gives you great control when you have advantage, so if you can make that work then that's great. I would think you should also learn to counter his movement better on DL even if it can be more complicated because that makes you more well rounded.

 

[jedimeister007]

so I've taken your advice by starting to focus on more specific aspects of my game and it has really helped me stay more grounded while playing so thank you very much!

after looking at vods and just thinking more while playing, I've started having theories as to what my main problems are and just wanted to see if this seems like a legit problem/thing to work on or just something my brain came up with as a work around to a different and/or bigger problem.

Initially i thought my problem was neutral game and endurance since I'd start out strong and slowly fall apart, but after looking at the game a different way I'm starting to think it's actually punish game and using positional advantage. The reason I started thinking this is cuz when I play vs better players and have a weak punish game, they have more opportunities to adapt and adjust to what I'm doing. Also, it seems like this makes me way more open to counter hits from dropping combos and overextending. Not sure if this sounds like an entire problem or just one piece of it, or if this is just me coming up with excuses not to work on my neutral/conditioning game

Also when finishing a combo vs Marth, how good is using shine bair to add more % when he's at, say, 40-75? I'm thinking about how reliable an edge guard sequence would be at that % vs the consistent extra 5-8% of the shine. I don't like the extra height Marth gets offstage, but I also don't like losing what feels like free damage.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Glad it helped!

I think you're right to want to focus more on punish there. Yes you want to be able to have a deeper neutral, but in general hitting hard will always be valuable and makes your neutral stronger as well. They are linked, so don't worry about specifics so much.

Kind of depends on whether it changes the edgeguard. If he can get another mixup such as being able to DJ to the edge with the extra height then it's not worth it. If it doesn't change his options overall then it's fine.

 

[AnonymousID]

Hey PP, I’m pretty confused about adapting and stuff, and I’m not sure how to articulate my thoughts but I’ll try.

Generally I’m thinking that if you notice that in situation A, your opponent does option X, you should probably do something that works well against X and depending on how confident you are that they will do X, you can try to force the situation to happen again in order to get a big punish.

Something I’m confused about though is what happens if you’re on the other end and your opponent forces a situation on you and you don’t have time to decide/remember what to do. I feel like if you have to make a choice instantly it’s just gonna be an autopilot reflex that can be easily punished.

I notice this a lot when I do something like shield drop laser or land with a laser, people are generally unprepared for it and just get hit by an instant aerial. (also happens to me)

So how do you get better in these unexpected spots? I’m thinking you really need to know what happens before. In the case of the lasers It would be recognizing that if falco is on a platform, shield drop laser would be an option and I think that would give you more time to think about what to do.

Also sometimes, this happens a lot last stock, I completely forget what my opponent has been doing, probably because of nervousness, and I’m unsure of what choice to make which ends up with me doing something predictable and dying.

Another thing is during a mixup situation, do you like instantly remember what your opponent did the last time? I feel like that’s the best thing you can do but it doesn’t really seem possible.

 

[Dr Peepee]

What I do is first try to set up for it by looking at what you can react to beforehand like you said. I then set up things to do as guesses if I get put into a mixup. Then in matches I try to recall and do those things to practice my guess mixups, which improve as I see what happened after doing them and adjust my predictions. It's the best you can do in bad situations I think.

I think setting up a specific way to play you can think about last stock would help you. Having specific set plays would help a lot.

Having set plays helps with your last question as well. You can see how they responded to your threat or your action, and then between stocks you can think of what they did and adjust. It takes a lot of work and practice but you can get better at it.

 

[woglofungi]

I know this isn't exactly falco related but should i be practising my tech skill alone on a crt setup or on my pc's dolphin setup? I don't have 20xx on GC, but i don't know if i should obtain it and practice on there instead.

 

[Dr Peepee]

I am not aware of the differences between dolphin and CRT, but CRT screens are more like what you'd play on in tournament, so it's worth looking into making your training as much like tournament if you want every edge. I imagine you could be fine without it too.

 

[jedimeister007]

i got to play netplay with Medz again and he was showing how predictable in neutral I was. tbh it was extremely frustrating having him punish my same idiotic approaches and defensive options over and over again and while i understood he was outplaying me and i was too obvious, i just couldn't force myself to make different decisions. I kept instant DJ side bing, doing predictable laser heights and timings etc, but felt powerless to stop it no matter how hard i tried. the only way i could stop myself from constantly making horrible mistakes is by doing basically nothing, but obv that's not an actual solution. i recorded the session and maybe by breaking down the situations it'll help, but I feel like it's more a game plan/lack of prep that's the problem, but I also don't know how to fix it.

It's also that he's way better than any other practice I get, so when i play a worse player i do something that doesn't even seem like a mistake, but vs him he kills me for it. it's made me pretty upset that i've spent time trying to improve my play, only to find i've been relying on gimmicks and execution tests instead of actually improving my fundamentals :/

i guess i'm not sure how to tell what's a bad habit even if it works vs a worse player, or how to be analytical in an actually useful way instead of just looking for an easy execution test to get me out of a bad spot that'll end up getting me killed vs someone good

 

[AnonymousID]

I think setting up a specific way to play you can think about last stock would help you. Having specific set plays would help a lot.

Having set plays helps with your last question as well. You can see how they responded to your threat or your action, and then between stocks you can think of what they did and adjust. It takes a lot of work and practice but you can get better at it.

Is a set play just a specific set of actions you've practice in a given situation?
Also what do you think of having like set adaptations, like in situation A if they do X, you automatically just do Y the next time (maybe have different options vs different levels of players or something). (I'm thinking this could be considered part of set plays).

Also a couple months ago you told me that waiting on the platform and trying to remember what your opponent does helps you remember what happens in game. I actually decided to try it out for real yesterday (should have started as soon as you mentioned it lmao) and I felt so much more aware in game! It felt really mentally demanding though and I could only remember maybe the last 3-4 things which would just instantly be replaced by another 3-4 new things. I feel like I also needed to take a mental note as soon as something happens in order to recall it later or else I'll just forget. Also I was only able to do it for like an hour before I just lost focus. I'm definitely planning on doing this everytime I play and hopefully it'll get easier.

 

[Dr Peepee]

i got to play netplay with Medz again and he was showing how predictable in neutral I was. tbh it was extremely frustrating having him punish my same idiotic approaches and defensive options over and over again and while i understood he was outplaying me and i was too obvious, i just couldn't force myself to make different decisions. I kept instant DJ side bing, doing predictable laser heights and timings etc, but felt powerless to stop it no matter how hard i tried. the only way i could stop myself from constantly making horrible mistakes is by doing basically nothing, but obv that's not an actual solution. i recorded the session and maybe by breaking down the situations it'll help, but I feel like it's more a game plan/lack of prep that's the problem, but I also don't know how to fix it.

It's also that he's way better than any other practice I get, so when i play a worse player i do something that doesn't even seem like a mistake, but vs him he kills me for it. it's made me pretty upset that i've spent time trying to improve my play, only to find i've been relying on gimmicks and execution tests instead of actually improving my fundamentals :/

i guess i'm not sure how to tell what's a bad habit even if it works vs a worse player, or how to be analytical in an actually useful way instead of just looking for an easy execution test to get me out of a bad spot that'll end up getting me killed vs someone good

When better players start hitting you, they can force out bad habits or react to more than they could if the match was more even. Basically I don't think you should be super hard on yourself about, but you're right to want to develop a strategy. Instead of thinking "how can I not do this" it might be better to think "what can I do instead?" So instead of immediate DJ side B, what else can you do? Why don't you practice doing those things offstage to be sure you do it, and if you mess up and do it and get killed for it, just think of what you practiced for next time and that will likely help.

You may also benefit from reducing tension when you play so you can be more flexible. This can include posture work or mental strain using relaxation techniques like meditation.

Is a set play just a specific set of actions you've practice in a given situation?
Also what do you think of having like set adaptations, like in situation A if they do X, you automatically just do Y the next time (maybe have different options vs different levels of players or something). (I'm thinking this could be considered part of set plays).

Also a couple months ago you told me that waiting on the platform and trying to remember what your opponent does helps you remember what happens in game. I actually decided to try it out for real yesterday (should have started as soon as you mentioned it lmao) and I felt so much more aware in game! It felt really mentally demanding though and I could only remember maybe the last 3-4 things which would just instantly be replaced by another 3-4 new things. I feel like I also needed to take a mental note as soon as something happens in order to recall it later or else I'll just forget. Also I was only able to do it for like an hour before I just lost focus. I'm definitely planning on doing this everytime I play and hopefully it'll get easier.

Yeah basically for set plays. I think the set adaptations can be okay, but you need to look at factors that influence decision making like percent or stage position to figure out what may happen so it's not so simple.

Yeah it does get easier, especially if you're also mentally and physically training outside of the game. It's great though and I'm glad it helped you, please keep it up.

 

[Malt]

I know this isn't exactly falco related but should i be practising my tech skill alone on a crt setup or on my pc's dolphin setup? I don't have 20xx on GC, but i don't know if i should obtain it and practice on there instead.

AFAIK if you have a good monitor, FM Dolphin on 6 buffer is the same as CRT.
There is a thing with the audio where if you don't use the one called "WASAPI", there is a going to be a bit of audio delay compared to CRT. Problem is, if you use WASAPI you can't listen to anything in the background while you use dolphin. So if you're big on game audio this may be something to consider (personally I've never really had an issue with it except for using it to react to spacie side-b).

Anecdotally, I've been playing for around 4 years and at least 90% of my practice is on dolphin. I've never felt like it affected my tech skill in tournament. As long as I give myself ~30 minutes to warm up before bracket, I don't feel any difference between CRT and dolphin.

 

[woglofungi]

AFAIK if you have a good monitor, FM Dolphin on 6 buffer is the same as CRT.
There is a thing with the audio where if you don't use the one called "WASAPI", there is a going to be a bit of audio delay compared to CRT. Problem is, if you use WASAPI you can't listen to anything in the background while you use dolphin. So if you're big on game audio this may be something to consider (personally I've never really had an issue with it except for using it to react to spacie side-b).

Anecdotally, I've been playing for around 4 years and at least 90% of my practice is on dolphin. I've never felt like it affected my tech skill in tournament. As long as I give myself ~30 minutes to warm up before bracket, I don't feel any difference between CRT and dolphin.

Thank you!

 

[woglofungi]

How would i practice as a new player? I don't wanna build habits, but other than "train tech" I'm clueless on how to practice

 

[AnonymousID]

How would i practice as a new player? I don't wanna build habits, but other than "train tech" I'm clueless on how to practice

I'd say generally as a new player basically anything you do is going to help you improve. I wouldn't worry too much about bad habits since as you get better and understand more situations you'll be more aware of them.

Specifically though I would work on comboes and stuff, like set up a level 1 cpu and start comboing him starting with whatever your characters main combo starter is. You can also practice specific ways you plan on approaching and then try it out in game. It's also really important in matches to realize why you're getting hit or why you're getting a hit and then figuring out what to do in those spots. A lot of the same scenarios happen fairly frequently. I think generally figuring out what you're going to do in a situation happens outside of the game, with you either theorycrafting/testing your ideas but I wouldn't worry too much about it since it can get a bit overwhelming.

Also look around for some guides. SSBM tutorials on youtube is really helpful and page 1 of this thread has links to helpful posts. Finally have fun! I think it's easy to just focus solely on getting better and winning and sometimes you forget that melee is just a really fun game.

 

[woglofungi]

stingtestingtestingtestingtestingtestingtestin

I'd say generally as a new player basically anything you do is going to help you improve. I wouldn't worry too much about bad habits since as you get better and understand more situations you'll be more aware of them.

Specifically though I would work on comboes and stuff, like set up a level 1 cpu and start comboing him starting with whatever your characters main combo starter is. You can also practice specific ways you plan on approaching and then try it out in game. It's also really important in matches to realize why you're getting hit or why you're getting a hit and then figuring out what to do in those spots. A lot of the same scenarios happen fairly frequently. I think generally figuring out what you're going to do in a situation happens outside of the game, with you either theorycrafting/testing your ideas but I wouldn't worry too much about it since it can get a bit overwhelming.

Also look around for some guides. SSBM tutorials on youtube is really helpful and page 1 of this thread has links to helpful posts. Finally have fun! I think it's easy to just focus solely on getting better and winning and sometimes you forget that melee is just a really fun game.

Thank you, right now I'm practising basic tech because it's hard to do anything without it really, but by my question i meant like literally what do i do when I'm in training, do i just do what i wanted to learn over and over again, i know no routines or how to do anything really.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Practice doing the same tech over and over. Then practice putting those techs together in useful ways, such as WD/dash laser. Use 20XX/unclepunch to practice specifics such as shield pressure in 20XX and repetitions of that. Starting with just basic tech as you've been doing is your best bet.

 

[jedimeister007]

You may also benefit from reducing tension when you play so you can be more flexible. This can include posture work or mental strain using relaxation techniques like meditation.

After spending just these few days trying to reduce tension and meditate, I think I'm starting to realize a majority of my issues come from out-of-game problems (getting too easily frustrated, overfocusing on mistakes, getting nervous, etc.) so thank you so much for helping me realize this!

so for meditation and breathing exercises, is this something you do even before solo practice? Also, is it something that I should be looking to do constantly for the future before every major event and in my pre match regime, or does it become overall easier overtime and less time consuming? From the 3-4 times I've prepared myself before netplay or tourney, its taken 20-30 minutes of prep to relax more which doesn't seem feasible for most tourney settings but idk lol.

again thanks for all the advice you've given me <3

 

[Yort]

Dr Peepee

What are the good options to edgeguard a puff who's dipped below the stage and is trying to jump and grab the ledge?

How do you use grab ledge and normal get up here to eat her options?

i'm thinking DAFT / dsmash to read the jump timing for onstage edgeguard and grab ledge time a normal get up to force her to airdodge etc.

 

[Dr Peepee]

After spending just these few days trying to reduce tension and meditate, I think I'm starting to realize a majority of my issues come from out-of-game problems (getting too easily frustrated, overfocusing on mistakes, getting nervous, etc.) so thank you so much for helping me realize this!

so for meditation and breathing exercises, is this something you do even before solo practice? Also, is it something that I should be looking to do constantly for the future before every major event and in my pre match regime, or does it become overall easier overtime and less time consuming? From the 3-4 times I've prepared myself before netplay or tourney, its taken 20-30 minutes of prep to relax more which doesn't seem feasible for most tourney settings but idk lol.

again thanks for all the advice you've given me <3

Yeah it's a way bigger deal than people think. Glad you can find some peace and move forward =)

And yes it does get easier with time. I spent 1-2 hours in the morning and 1-2 at night meditating and that helped me get calm throughout the day no matter what happened. You could probably get away with 45 minutes morning and night though. Besides that, I didn't do much special before playing besides another small session if it felt very warranted, but usually my training helped me relieve tension and experience the situation plenty by then. I would say stick with it and it gets easier, and see what works for you. A daily practice is best.

Dr Peepee

What are the good options to edgeguard a puff who's dipped below the stage and is trying to jump and grab the ledge?

How do you use grab ledge and normal get up here to eat her options?

i'm thinking DAFT / dsmash to read the jump timing for onstage edgeguard and grab ledge time a normal get up to force her to airdodge etc.

I wouldn't use grab edge and normal getup if she's below the edge. Too likely to get hit or have her move in during your lag. Grabbing edge and letting go and DJ Dair/Bair is great for certain positions and can be faked by just DJ regrabbing the edge, or DJ'ing and drifting onto stage and doing a new play. Dsmash and DAFT are good if she isn't going to sing snap to the edge, and if she is then runoff DJ Dair or grabbing edge and doing a play I mentioned is a better bet. You'll need to watch for her moving to the side if you do hold the edge and hold it well.

 

[AnonymousID]

Hey pp, how should I approach a situation where I wait for my oppoent to do something, but then they don't?

I think a good example is if I shield expecting a dash attack. It's simple If they do dash attack, I can just punish them. However I'm lost if they don't attack. Usually I'll just hold shield because I feel like they might dash attack the next instant, but then they don't and then I think they'll attack the very next instant and before I know it I'm just holding shield doing nothing.

Other examples would be like waiting for Fox's FH or Falcos lasers.

Some things I'm thinking of is just having a backup option that I'll do as soon as I realize I'm wrong so I don't get stuck. In this case maybe wd/aerial/laser oos or something. Sometimes though my opponent does do what I'm waiting for just at a slightly later time which would beat what I do.