PPMD's Falco Discussion Thread

[Dr Peepee]

Hey, I was thinking about the issue that I have. From playing players at my level, I end up knowing what moves they use, but I am bad at keeping track of anything else. Sometimes, I get really caught up and forget what I am doing entirely. I didnt really expect myself to have this issue with how far ive come. I was wondering, did you ever struggle with those sorts of problems and, since ive heard that you got good based on solo practice, how'd you deal with it? Also, how do you keep presence of mind during a match?

I got good from analysis and discussion and playing my brother, mainly. I didn't know how to improve with practice when I was coming up too well besides helping my technical ability and free thinking some combo ideas. My adaptation was relatively bad, but only in matches. I would learn as much as I could outside of matches from analysis and then do the next steps in matches since it came to me obviously then. Maybe this could be useful for you.

What I find very useful, now that I'm a top player and try to teach it to others, is playing in set plays. This means I consciously vary my patterns and allow for observation to take place there. This directed play gives me way more adaptation than I used to have. It takes strain off my mind because I too used to get overwhelmed looking at what was in front of me, and my subconscious can take over the effort of moving and looking and reacting. So for example, if I'm Marth and dash in - WD back and see the opponent shielded as I WD back, then next time I will dash in - Fair (their shield) perhaps, because I don't think they will aggro, it's good against shield, but I can't count on them shielding again. I may practice doing dash in - WD back many times in a session now and that helps me a good bit, as I think about what it beats and loses to, and what I can do instead.

This may also solve your presence of mind problem, but there may be other things that keep your focus lost such as diet or sleep or emotional disorder, etc. Maybe it would be best to look into the main in-game problem first, or at least tell me what you think of this.

Dr Peepee

https://youtu.be/3aHB44B944k?t=150
Do you think you should do this full hop bair if you’re too late to actually hit his landing and it connects with shield instead?
Should you do something else if you know you’re late and that the bair will connect on shield like waveland on platform grab or go for a shine stab or shine waveland pressure etc?

Delaying it slightly might be good so you could shield stab or hit a shield drop. Those other things you mentioned can be okay too, but I wouldn't personally go for shine waveland pressure. I think moving around the space to threaten Utilt vs Bair(using various jumps to threaten it too if you want) vs laser can all be fine.

 

[Morsecode762]

Ill play around with this concept while im at my next event on top of doing set reviews. Ill let you know what happens.

 

[Wiggy Jiggy Jed]

Once you start streaming / playing again, will you still be on here answering questions? Or will your stream / something else be a better place to ask questions

 

[Dr Peepee]

I'll still answer here, but it may be less frequently. I am unsure how it'll all work out.

 

[Basod]

I'm sorry if my question seems rude,but I need to know if the jab you preformed at ~9:20-9:22 was intentional. I thought this was part of a mind game or some RPS tactic. I later heard some one else state that the jab was unintentional and it was suppose to be a charged forward smash.

 

[Dr Peepee]

You didn't link the jab, but I'll happily answer your question if you link it.

 

[Basod]

You didn't link the jab, but I'll happily answer your question if you link it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FtmcnR661Ks
Sorry about the trouble.

 

[Dr Peepee]

LOL I was hoping it wasn't that

It was a freaking Fsmash!!! I have much anger over my gameplay!!!!

 

[Basod]

Sorry to have brought it up. I wanted to discuss what I thought happened in the mental aspect of that interaction, if that would be alright with you. I'm sorry if it offends or upsets you.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Sure you can say whatever you like about it. Thanks for being respectful.

Part of it is related to my then-horrible health, so I would factor that into whatever analysis you have.

 

[Basod]

I understood the situation as an rock paper scissor read, the only reason the forward smash missed was because of a timing error. What I thought had occurred was that Armada thought that since you covered the area with a threat (the jab) you would turnaround and attack him. I thought Armada was thinking that you removing his option would leave him the option of only recovering to the right of falco. He then thought that he would challenge your threat since he knew you would change your threat space to the right. I think that is what lead to Armada rolling to the left. What I though you did was you understood that Armada would think this way and continued to hold the space to the left knowing he would go there. I came to this idea after watching Mang0 analyze the set between you and him at MLG. I forgot the time stamp, but it was when he was Fox hanging on the right side ledge of Final Destination and you were Falco, and you somehow read his getup/recovery option. Mang0 said he did not know how you read his option. I assume you got there from a Rock Paper Scissors mental play. An example of how I see the Rock Paper Scissors idea is that the opponent knows I will go for rock so he will go for paper;therefore I will be scissors. I'm sorry if that is worded poorly and for my condescending behavior. I will attach the rough note concept at the bottom of this post if that will help you understand my thinking process.

Rough Notes
since I put a move out here opponent will think he covered that and will switch to where I am currently because I am here-opponent thinks that is what I am thinking and will then go to where I currently was hitting because I covered it and wont think about hitting it

Rock paper Scissor Idea=I will go X but opponent knows I am thinking X so I'll go Y. This goes on forever until I make play that is Tic Tac toe=force opponent to play without goodzone=steal all options

 

[Dr Peepee]

Something else to consider here is that Armada rolling in helps him survive and it's also harder to cover than Fsmash'ing or attacking toward the larger section of the platform.

RPS is a good model, but there are so many more variables in this than RPS that it can often break down when you get into situations as you did. People often set themselves up to cover things and from there either play RPS or allow RPS to be played(important distinction), and this brings with it quite a bit of nuance. Overall I think you identified useful factors and ideas here.

 

[Basod]

Is the other option to consider that Armada is factoring that you will forward smash and adjusts by moving to the farthest blast zone? What if you decided to go for a top zone blast zone? Couldn't Falco shine and do a charged up smash on the to get a stock?
Is that not considered deadly with Falco since Dream Land has a high ceiling? Could you elaborate on playing RPS or allowing RPS to be played? Thank you for taking the time to read this and put up with my ignorance.

 

[Wiggy Jiggy Jed]

I got good from analysis and discussion and playing my brother, mainly. I didn't know how to improve with practice when I was coming up too well besides helping my technical ability and free thinking some combo ideas. My adaptation was relatively bad, but only in matches. I would learn as much as I could outside of matches from analysis and then do the next steps in matches since it came to me obviously then. Maybe this could be useful for you.

What I find very useful, now that I'm a top player and try to teach it to others, is playing in set plays. This means I consciously vary my patterns and allow for observation to take place there. This directed play gives me way more adaptation than I used to have. It takes strain off my mind because I too used to get overwhelmed looking at what was in front of me, and my subconscious can take over the effort of moving and looking and reacting. So for example, if I'm Marth and dash in - WD back and see the opponent shielded as I WD back, then next time I will dash in - Fair (their shield) perhaps, because I don't think they will aggro, it's good against shield, but I can't count on them shielding again. I may practice doing dash in - WD back many times in a session now and that helps me a good bit, as I think about what it beats and loses to, and what I can do instead.

This may also solve your presence of mind problem, but there may be other things that keep your focus lost such as diet or sleep or emotional disorder, etc. Maybe it would be best to look into the main in-game problem first, or at least tell me what you think of this.


Delaying it slightly might be good so you could shield stab or hit a shield drop. Those other things you mentioned can be okay too, but I wouldn't personally go for shine waveland pressure. I think moving around the space to threaten Utilt vs Bair(using various jumps to threaten it too if you want) vs laser can all be fine.

I think I have a similar issue here, in that it seems fairly difficult for me to pinpoint things to adapt to mid-game (a lot of habits I pick up seem to be more intuitive then something I consciously think about). I was wondering if you could expand on the idea of set plays even further. Perhaps provide one or two examples for Falco, and a formula you would use to figure out how to develop your own set plays. I sort of understand the concept from what you've already said, but this is new information to me, so I want a solid understanding before trying to do this myself.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Is the other option to consider that Armada is factoring that you will forward smash and adjusts by moving to the farthest blast zone? What if you decided to go for a top zone blast zone? Couldn't Falco shine and do a charged up smash on the to get a stock?
Is that not considered deadly with Falco since Dream Land has a high ceiling? Could you elaborate on playing RPS or allowing RPS to be played? Thank you for taking the time to read this and put up with my ignorance.

Falco struggles to kill off the top on DL because the ceiling is so high. He can't shine up-B Peach and double shine usually won't hit. He could Dtilt or hit a high Uair but it takes both a while to kill.

Playing or allowing RPS has to do with who initiates in part. You dictate the terms by the engagement. Moving forward and forcing them to act and stopping at a certain position to act is sort of like two separate RPS: you move forward and initiate going all in or whatever else, and then you do a new one from the closer position.

I think I have a similar issue here, in that it seems fairly difficult for me to pinpoint things to adapt to mid-game (a lot of habits I pick up seem to be more intuitive then something I consciously think about). I was wondering if you could expand on the idea of set plays even further. Perhaps provide one or two examples for Falco, and a formula you would use to figure out how to develop your own set plays. I sort of understand the concept from what you've already said, but this is new information to me, so I want a solid understanding before trying to do this myself.

The first thing to do is understand each tool individually. If you don't know why laser is good, or why dash is good, then putting laser and dash together is going to be less effective for you. Thinking about tools connected to dash such as DA or SH Nair, and the frame advantage of laser, helps you begin to combine their strengths. This is where you build things from, and it's best to start here.

 

[Morsecode762]

Hey PPMD, I got back from my weekend tournament excursion. Just wanted to keep you posted on how well that mindfulness exercise worked.

It didnt.

I came into my matches with a set of constraints that I would think about, which would vary my play consciously and subconsciously, but I dont think I actually made a real attempt to make a constant change to my playstyle for an extended period of time in order to influence the match. Then again, that really wasnt what the exercise was, was it? The exercise was to make those playstyle changes in small segments of the match in order to influence and understand those small segments.

Anyway, that didnt really work either. I had trouble seeing myself as an active agent in those situations. I had trouble relating my chosen action to their response. As a result. I was not able to directly understand the influence I had on my opponent and I was unable to get proper reads on my opponent. That's not even the worst part.

The worst part is that most of the time, I just threw that concept out of the window and just played with the theories that I had already made up for myself, which are usually based on macro and dont particularly involve player interaction.

This is probably all due to it me only using it for 2 or 3 days, but if you have any input, lmk. Im going to keep trying this out.

Morse.

 

[Dr Peepee]

It sounds like you didn't practice these set plays much, and may not have understood them either. So to back up a bit, the purpose of set plays is to communicate threats of an approach or what you will defensively cover/what space you will cover to your opponent with every action. So a WD back implies you are looking to cover approaches and are ready to CC, while a dash forward implies looking to approach and DA. Combining these two gives you a feinted approach but then relieving the pressure(depending on how far forward you run anyway), and the time you spend in WD back lag or a bit afterward lets you observe how your opponent responded to your play. You can then do something else out of dash forward(you can use walk forward instead since you play Samus if you like, it's the idea that's important) if they associate dash in with moving away, or no immediate threat. Practicing dash in WD back and the mixups out of it allows you to observe(during WD back at least) and also gives you ways to adapt if you lose(getting hit immediately during WD back means you should attack out of dash in, late out of WD back means you could attack out of dash in or dash back counter or delay your punish in place, getting hit out of dash in means whatever you did before was a mistake and/or they conditioned you, etc).

Anyway, the only way these set plays will work is if you think about your base tools, such as WD, and practice them individually. I know it sounds silly and unnecessary, but connecting with the tools and thinking of their properties and how they work and what options connect to them opens them up to connecting with other tools and gives you a firm understanding of how to abuse them most effectively. Furthermore, practicing helps keep your mental energy focused on the game and not on execution.

How does this sound?

 

[Basod]

Playing or allowing RPS has to do with who initiates in part. You dictate the terms by the engagement. Moving forward and forcing them to act and stopping at a certain position to act is sort of like two separate RPS: you move forward and initiate going all in or whatever else, and then you do a new one from the closer position.

Could you explain this in more detail? Can this be broken down in terms of combat and movement? How do you know you will beat them in the combat portion of RPS? When you move out and let someone play RPS how do you know that they will not land on the option that beats your own. Are you saying to hit them while they are in the refractory state of RPS? I am sorry if that does not make sense. I will write the rough notes down below.
ROUGH NOTES
dictating terms of engagement:Rock paper scissors:game starts when you run up to someone,you can play Rock paper scissors or you can run away and let that person go through their Rock Paper Scissor flowchart. When they are doing that you can run in and hit the part they are weak in. Their flowchart is on Paper, I know it will be on Paper so I go scissors. I can also run into their flowchart too late and get hit by their strong option.
Moving Forward And Initiate Going All In Or Whatever Else; instead of waiting for opponent to use an option of Rock Paper Scissors I start a new game of RPS where they lose by timeout. Like in an RPG where each unit has its own wait time and you can lose by not doing anything. You can also hit them while they are making an option.
New One from the Closer Position: Forcing them to play Rock paper Scissors at my pace.
Thank you for taking the time and effort to explain these things to me.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Okay so I'm going to preface this with: we could go on this for quite a while before we finished. RPS is an idea that you both throw out an option at the same time and you either win lose or draw. Melee is much messier than that. Sometimes outcomes happen in which you slightly lose or slightly win, or ones in which you do but don't recognize it, or ones in which you draw but because you're in a bad stage position you slightly lose, but not as slightly as if you had very slightly won the position in a vacuum, etc....Sometimes you win RPS by acting slightly before they do, which cannot happen in RPS. Sometimes you win by acting slightly later. Sometimes much later. Then there are many many timings between each timing due to things such as drift and places at which you can break dash, and FF timing, etc.....So if you still want to use this RPS way to dissect things you can, but it is my view that you will likely not leave this discussion satisfied with whatever I can say, or at least not fully.

You can know you beat them in the combat portion of RPS by using what they did before or guessing at how they will change, or influencing them leading up to the decision point. Acting aggressive and fast assumes you will attack as quickly as possible leading up to a decision point, so if you suddenly WD down/back or SH in place or whatever then the opponent may whiff or shield and you may gain advantage. Hitting someone after they make a decision is a great way to catch them off guard, but you have to watch for their built-in defenses in those times(such as Marth landing with Fair and then Utilt'ing where his lag normally is...the lag would be after the Utilt in this case).

 

[Basod]

Should I continue to look at smash as RPS? I am trying to understand neutral and what neutral is in smash. Should I continue using an RPS model or should I try to create a new model to view smash and neutral?

which you draw but because you're in a bad stage position

Could you direct me to where I can learn about stage position and its effects?
Thank you for your help.

 

[Dr Peepee]

I find RPS to be overly simplistic for Melee at least, and smash as a whole oftentimes. But it's not a bad model if you recognize its limitations and use it to help you learn how to beat basic options and build your game from there, which is a good learning process.

I'm not sure if I've written about stage position in the OP of this thread or not, but I'd look there or in the Melee Library since those places have lots of good resources. Stage position gives benefit in that you can basically back up while your opponent cannot, and the less space they have to back up the more they have to deal with you. In other words, you have more options than they do.

 

[Basod]

****Sorry for the last version of this post. I rewrote my post to be more beneficial to anyone else who would read it. Sorry for the trouble.****
I'm sorry for going back to this topic but I think these questions and ideas come from my own lack of understanding on neutral and how I see it.
I keep understanding neutral as a rail cart ride/roller coaster ride. It is engineered so that risk and reward are artificial and that I have to put myself in a certain place to be on the benefit. In a match I get my opponent in a position where I can punish them/ I cover an option they have or could take. I can get the hit if I punish it correctly or I miss and get punished for my failed punish. My opponent does the same exact thing as I described. The set continues like this until one of us has too much knock back or gets a successful edge guard. The way I see neutral is an exchange of punishes until one of the players gets a punish that will lead to a loss, and there are certain options that when taken will always lead to a failed punish on your end. The other options either leave you with no option of recovering or punishing your opponent. Can you define what neutral is in smash bros. and if my view is highly flawed or just another perspective. I find videos on youtube that say that Neutral is RPS for smash but I as you said RPS is too basic to understand the depth of smash. If i wanted to learn more about neutral where should I go The other thing I struggle with is if I know my opponent will not go for the option that I punish with should I force them to make that option or should I adapt, and by adjusting to my opponent am I letting them condition me? When I reach that point of conditioning how do I break free from that habit?
If it is too much trouble to answer can you redirect me to another source.
Thank you for your advice and help.

 

[Dr Peepee]

I had a conversation with Yort a few pages ago about a lot of this stuff, and that may be helpful to you. I would also suggest looking up the Melee Library and finding various posts on it. Druggedfox, Wobbles, and Kirbykaze will have written good things for example.

I would say a starting point is to explore each of your options individually. So stuff like jab tilt Nair dash WD etc. Think of their properties(frames, overall speed, options out of movement tools, etc) and practice those. Look at which options of your character beat those of the opposing character at close range, then mid range(so like dash SH distance) and change the timing. That is a good way to begin to build neutral.

 

[Basod]

I had a conversation with Yort a few pages ago about a lot of this stuff, and that may be helpful to you. I would also suggest looking up the Melee Library and finding various posts on it. Druggedfox, Wobbles, and Kirbykaze will have written good things for example.

I would say a starting point is to explore each of your options individually. So stuff like jab tilt Nair dash WD etc. Think of their properties(frames, overall speed, options out of movement tools, etc) and practice those. Look at which options of your character beat those of the opposing character at close range, then mid range(so like dash SH distance) and change the timing. That is a good way to begin to build neutral.

Thanks for the help. Sorry I changed the post to late eith new questions.

 

[Morsecode762]

PPMD,

I think I get it this time. I dont have the resources to practice this with someone, but ill try to think about what my most basic actions communicate to my opponent. Ill let you know what comes up next weekend when I get to play ppl.

Morse.

 

[MambaGreenFalco]

Hey PP I have a theory on a way to beat sheik charging needles on the side plat of battlefield. You full hop waveland down and shield on the side plat and shield. If they throw their needles you get either a sh laser to contest them charging needles again or you get a shield drop laser to contest the ground. The holes in this small gameplan seem to be in the time it takes to get from the ground to the side platform with your shield up, so they can throw their needles before that. And shield is a resource which gets used here so you probably can't take two full needle charges to your shield but that doesn't seem likely so I would say that factor isn't super relevant here. Also if they drop when you jump that seems not an ideal position and still quite playable. What do you think? What would be a mixup to the strategy of jumping to the side plat with shield?

In the posiition where I am edgeguarding peach and I let her onto the side plat of dreamland and I'm still on the ground, I've found she has a powerful mixup of either d smashing or running off of the side plat towards center stage with her bair. My simple way of dealing with this is either nairing her bair runoff or full hop bairing her whiffed d smash. This seems bad typing it out because peach gets an interaction where she is closer to the center stage even if I guess right (her running of bair). Is my mistake letting her onto the side plat in the first place? Is this position still favorable for falco? As soon as she gets on the side plat should I be running to center to set up my bair instead of staying under the plat? What other main options does peach have in that situation? If it is a bad mistake what am I doing wrong to let her onto the side plat (I'm guessing you can't answer this one without footage or a more specific description of the edgeguarding situation but I decided to ask anyway)

What can falco do against a fox doing approaching full hop dair when Falco can't move backwards so you don't have access to your dash back bair to contest? I've found dash forward under the full hop to be work well when it does work but that seems like a timing and option read. The other simplest answer is to just shield the dair and then shine oos but I'm trying to stay away from that option because I don't like shielding in the corner, or ever for that matter lol.

What is falco supposed to do against sheiks sh approaching nair? I realize how vague this question is but for now the answers I have are to either sh bair it, dash back then play the position from there, or if you are spaced enough then laser her landing. I'm so unfamiliar with the position that I'm more curious in knowing how Falco's moves/dash/wd/laser interact with her sh fade forward nair rather than the mixups extending from the situation (for example can you up tilt it? Can you half dash back turn around high laser it?)

Rereading and noticing how these situations are connected in one way or another to dash back and bair, funny.

 

[Melonsismyusername]

Dear, ppmd how do you advance a characters metagame and what should my mentality be when facing a smug, taunting opponent.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Hey PP I have a theory on a way to beat sheik charging needles on the side plat of battlefield. You full hop waveland down and shield on the side plat and shield. If they throw their needles you get either a sh laser to contest them charging needles again or you get a shield drop laser to contest the ground. The holes in this small gameplan seem to be in the time it takes to get from the ground to the side platform with your shield up, so they can throw their needles before that. And shield is a resource which gets used here so you probably can't take two full needle charges to your shield but that doesn't seem likely so I would say that factor isn't super relevant here. Also if they drop when you jump that seems not an ideal position and still quite playable. What do you think? What would be a mixup to the strategy of jumping to the side plat with shield?

In the posiition where I am edgeguarding peach and I let her onto the side plat of dreamland and I'm still on the ground, I've found she has a powerful mixup of either d smashing or running off of the side plat towards center stage with her bair. My simple way of dealing with this is either nairing her bair runoff or full hop bairing her whiffed d smash. This seems bad typing it out because peach gets an interaction where she is closer to the center stage even if I guess right (her running of bair). Is my mistake letting her onto the side plat in the first place? Is this position still favorable for falco? As soon as she gets on the side plat should I be running to center to set up my bair instead of staying under the plat? What other main options does peach have in that situation? If it is a bad mistake what am I doing wrong to let her onto the side plat (I'm guessing you can't answer this one without footage or a more specific description of the edgeguarding situation but I decided to ask anyway)

What can falco do against a fox doing approaching full hop dair when Falco can't move backwards so you don't have access to your dash back bair to contest? I've found dash forward under the full hop to be work well when it does work but that seems like a timing and option read. The other simplest answer is to just shield the dair and then shine oos but I'm trying to stay away from that option because I don't like shielding in the corner, or ever for that matter lol.

What is falco supposed to do against sheiks sh approaching nair? I realize how vague this question is but for now the answers I have are to either sh bair it, dash back then play the position from there, or if you are spaced enough then laser her landing. I'm so unfamiliar with the position that I'm more curious in knowing how Falco's moves/dash/wd/laser interact with her sh fade forward nair rather than the mixups extending from the situation (for example can you up tilt it? Can you half dash back turn around high laser it?)

Rereading and noticing how these situations are connected in one way or another to dash back and bair, funny.

If Sheik and Falco sit on the same vertical plane, where they can see each other and needle and laser each other, then Sheik can out spam Falco unless Falco spams neutral B in place. Sheik single needle spam beats SH laser, but standing laser spam beats single needle spam. If the Sheik knows this, you won't win. If they don't know this, they will get down and you will have to do air to ground fights which are uncomfortable. I prefer the FH/DJ landing aerial or laser or empty land mixup strategy against them, and also mixing DD below them to change when you start this mixup and to hit them if they come down.

You could dash FH Bair toward the top platform, but yeah once she's on the platform she gets a real chance to get down. Getting between her and center is a good start, but usually not possible because Falco is slow. Peach can also shield drop Nair/Bair there, or jump again while on the platform to avoid your attack and hit you or get down, and I suppose she could FH to the top platform or runoff toward you at the edge too. The stuff besides shield drop isn't common though.

Utilt beats Dair cleanly, do that.

You can Utilt it, Bair it, Fair it, Dair over it sometimes or Dair her leg directly sometimes, CC shine it.

Dear, ppmd how do you advance a characters metagame and what should my mentality be when facing a smug, taunting opponent.

Advancing a metagame should come naturally out of viewing common important positions and character tools and how those interact.

The smug person isn't directly smug about you, it's more about what they think they need to do to feel secure in the game. As a competitor, it's YOUR job to be calm and focused in the face of any challenge, and you should view it as a part of the game to overcome.

 

[MambaGreenFalco]

If Sheik and Falco sit on the same vertical plane, where they can see each other and needle and laser each other, then Sheik can out spam Falco unless Falco spams neutral B in place. Sheik single needle spam beats SH laser, but standing laser spam beats single needle spam. If the Sheik knows this, you won't win. If they don't know this, they will get down and you will have to do air to ground fights which are uncomfortable. I prefer the FH/DJ landing aerial or laser or empty land mixup strategy against them, and also mixing DD below them to change when you start this mixup and to hit them if they come down.

You could dash FH Bair toward the top platform, but yeah once she's on the platform she gets a real chance to get down. Getting between her and center is a good start, but usually not possible because Falco is slow. Peach can also shield drop Nair/Bair there, or jump again while on the platform to avoid your attack and hit you or get down, and I suppose she could FH to the top platform or runoff toward you at the edge too. The stuff besides shield drop isn't common though.

Utilt beats Dair cleanly, do that.

You can Utilt it, Bair it, Fair it, Dair over it sometimes or Dair her leg directly sometimes, CC shine it.


Advancing a metagame should come naturally out of viewing common important positions and character tools and how those interact.

The smug person isn't directly smug about you, it's more about what they think they need to do to feel secure in the game. As a competitor, it's YOUR job to be calm and focused in the face of any challenge, and you should view it as a part of the game to overcome.

Do you think for my level or similar it's better to just wait for sheik to come down from the plat? I ask this because it seems like most falcos even at the top prefer to wait rather than contest sheik on the side plat. But it seems to me from all of the times I've asked you about sheik on the side plat that you think the position is rather even and can be in Falco's favor provided he knows the position.

Oh, duh, u tilt beats approaching dair.

When you u tilt the sheiks sh approaching nair, are you aiming to u tilt her leg that sticks and while she's falling? That seems like an awkward and specific timing. Also what do you mean by dairing it directly?

What should falco do when he gets hit by marth's tipper jab? What's the difference between getting hit by it in the air and on the ground? What about when the marth does take laser side b on your approach after the laser? How are those options different for marth?

What to do when peach does fc bair on your shield? Of course this depends on when she hits the bair.

I have lot's of random questions about random matchups because these are things that stuck out to me after going to my last tournament (which I won btw thank you again PP! I seriously wouldn't have been able to make the same amount of progress over the passed year since I've started messaging you here)

 

[Dr Peepee]

Waiting is fine, but you should know how to threaten it too. Most Sheiks do come down and don't camp if you mix up things a bit, so as long as you don't just sit there and obviously wait you can probably convince them to come down.

You want to Utilt her when she's higher up usually and you want to hit her leg, not her body. I think otherwise it can trade iirc, but you can test it. Dair you can hit her extended leg as she lowers as well, or Dair over the leg and hit her body as she goes lower(if she drifts back this is less possible or impossible depending on spacing etc).

I like to back up and laser, so dash back or WD back laser. But you can mix that with Dair in to keep Marth honest(though you should wait a moment before doing this so he doesn't have an easy reaction during jab lag). Getting hit out of the air is the worse one. If you get hit on the ground you can laser in place and regain laser momentum iirc. Mixing this with dash in to fake or dash back run in and then lasering out of either dash is the deeper mixup if you feel you need it. Just try to get away if you get side B'd unless you land close enough to shine. Retreating Dair is good as is backing up and lasering or rolling away.

Sometimes you can shine or JC Usmash oos, and sometimes you can Dair or FH. I think shield DI'ing away her spaced one and going for Dair or WD/roll back or holding shield is a pretty good and safe mixup.

And good stuff man! Hope you keep pushing =)

 

[MambaGreenFalco]

Waiting is fine, but you should know how to threaten it too. Most Sheiks do come down and don't camp if you mix up things a bit, so as long as you don't just sit there and obviously wait you can probably convince them to come down.

You want to Utilt her when she's higher up usually and you want to hit her leg, not her body. I think otherwise it can trade iirc, but you can test it. Dair you can hit her extended leg as she lowers as well, or Dair over the leg and hit her body as she goes lower(if she drifts back this is less possible or impossible depending on spacing etc).

I like to back up and laser, so dash back or WD back laser. But you can mix that with Dair in to keep Marth honest(though you should wait a moment before doing this so he doesn't have an easy reaction during jab lag). Getting hit out of the air is the worse one. If you get hit on the ground you can laser in place and regain laser momentum iirc. Mixing this with dash in to fake or dash back run in and then lasering out of either dash is the deeper mixup if you feel you need it. Just try to get away if you get side B'd unless you land close enough to shine. Retreating Dair is good as is backing up and lasering or rolling away.

Sometimes you can shine or JC Usmash oos, and sometimes you can Dair or FH. I think shield DI'ing away her spaced one and going for Dair or WD/roll back or holding shield is a pretty good and safe mixup.

And good stuff man! Hope you keep pushing =)

How do you dash in to fake after getting hit by the jab when you're already so close to marth? Is this a full dash? Or like a half dash sh drift in to set up for a laser/low dair/tomahawk shine? Or maybe even a dash into cross up dair?

Why is there more offensive mixup potential after getting jabbed rather than getting side b'd?

If I am about a peach roll away (how do you describe distances in melee??) from a falco who is falling, how do you contest that? What is the best laser timing/height to do when they're falling from a full hop? How is that different from when you think they'll do their own laser or not? Is yolo nairing into them any good?

If the opponent is on the side plat of battlefield at 0, or very low percent at least, is full hop bairing even good? Because even if it hits they just tank the hit and then gain ground control. I'm guessing it's probably worst to do this vs marth where he can profit most easily off of the position. What about vs sheik and falco?

Do you know how sdi/asdi works against falco's lasers when the opponent is in tech flop? Like in terms of laser staling and percent and sdi vs asdi or both at the same time.

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/386039386 - I have a few questions about one of the games here, but I also hope that you can see that I've really simplified my play and that the base of my playstyle is the basic tools falco has that I practiced through those deepening exercises. Also I think because of it I've now come to be known as "methodical" or "cerebral" and all those similar words.

44:53
In a similar vein as the last question, vs marth doing that full hop fair thing, can you full hop aerial whiff punish through him and then still maintain a somewhat neutral position even though he'll probably hit the ground slightly faster than you? As you can see I go for another bair but bet cc grabbed.

44:35
If you catch a marth falling with a laser where he has enough time to spam fair (like only 2 feet off the ground), is that even a good position to go in on? If you do go in is dair or nair better? Does marth have other stuff to do besides fair or dj? What if you catch marth's foot with a sh high laser? My opponent airdodged here which is interesting, and even though I know about that option I've never seen it commonly used.

45:00
That dair I did on the plat was really bad. What other options does Falco have here while the marth is pressuring with sh up air and up tilt? The two that come to mind for me are full hop and back flip off of the platform laser.

45:59
If I land a laser on marth right outside of his up tilt range and then they do up tilt anyway, what should falco do? Is it laggy enough that you can still dash back after the laser and then whiff punish their up tilt with dash in nair or laser? What are the marth's mixups in that situation besides up tilt? How does up tilt compare with marth's jab and side b that we talked about earlier? Of course I can't really dash back in that specific situation so what should I have done there?

46:35
I do that bad falling high dair on his shield. This really doesn't seem that bad of a position for falco noticing as my opponent decided to shield, but what could I have done better and what could the marth have done better as well? Is there a way to space a dair on their shield while fastfalling from a full hop like that wihtout getting grabbed?

46:46
He's in an edgeguard position and i use get up attack after the marth killer. I probably should have just done dj off the ledge into late bair or dair, but since I did getup attack he got another recovery opportunity. Also seems like marth has quite a few options there since he has all of his resources and gets out of hitstun quite early. Is this a "solvable" position for falco or was my mistake simply not bairing or dairing him after the marth killer?

49:37
How would you have done the edgeguard here? I'm genuinely stumped because I feel like there should be a way to guarantee kill falcon based on how he di'd. Would you have grabbed the ledge? How would you have followed up instead of that up tilt into bair that I did (which sent him the wrong way by accident I think, or maybe I was going for soft bair). And then after the bair I did that d smash on his up b which he could have tech up b'd. Do you have a way of covering falcon's tech up b from the stage and not from the ledge? Maybe like down angle f tilt into buffer spot dodge with c stick?

 

[Dr Peepee]

Dash threatens Dair. And I'm assuming tippered jab. If it's untippered then yeah it won't do any good.

Side B hangs you in the air more and has less lag for Marth.

Depends on what way they're facing and such, but lasering their landing and sometimes Nair'ing/Dair'ing into them is good. You can dash up laser in place too, or DJ over them to pressure their landing/action upon landing.

It's less good at 0 yeah, but the damage is nice. Sometimes they may be fearing the hit so they don't act and get down easily, but you may want to do falling Bair if you're worried about how they'll act after getting hit. It's not a bad idea though, hard to easily threaten people at 0% anyway.

I mean I don't have a chart of info, but it helps you get up if you SDI it well and are hit higher in the bounce and have more percent.


I would either drift away Bair, FH Shine, or maybe turnaround FH Fair there. You could dash SH Uair too maybe. Again, 0% is silly.

You would have lost from that position if he Fair'd, but if you hit a lower laser/were closer you could have won. Marth could empty land(and do stuff like shield I guess).

Shield drop Fair/Dair, wavedash oos off the platform(will get hit by them swinging a lot), and your listed options.

If you hit that high laser, then just wait it out then punish the lag. Can be dash back or just wait. You could (walk) Fsmash it too sometimes, or even walk WD shine depending on readiness. You can dash back and react and aerial in too, provided you're close enough and react decently. Marth can jab or react(unlikely for average Marth to do) or dash back or go for some type of PS setup. I think waiting or shielding would be good for you there, since a wait helps you punish lag like that, and shield helps if you think waiting is unsafe. FH could still be hit potentially if he's swinging but it would dodge grab so it's a tossup.

If you drifted back a bit before FF you could probably FF and hit safely. Or not FF. Or land behind him instead(Marth's options there aren't so good). I think Marth could have reacted to you DJ'ing and not Nair'd and instead edgedashed or just tried to time an edgehop Fair to hit your landing, and otherwise land on stage if you faded too far away for Fair.

I would have personally SH'd out and DJ Bair'd the Marth here, and DJ'd to grab edge if he airdodged(which he has to do early). You can recover safely if you do this correctly, and it will feel great to get it down. Highly recommend learning the SH out DJ Bair and how far you can go with it. However, you also could have let go Bair or let go shine (Bair) after the Marth Killer and that would work too.

The Fthrow there makes it tough. You have to hold edge until you see his up-B start or he goes below edge, or you fake grabbing edge and go offstage and hit him as he DJs. I would have Bair'd him off before he hit the ground and looked for some Dair to finish him afterward, or Bair him again at worst. You can usually Dair Falcon's up-B, and if you do it late you can dash back if he tries to come in, or dash back into him if he doesn't.

 

[Morsecode762]

Pp,
Heading back from an event. I think the way you described the concept you mentioned prevously when we last talked helped a bit. Then again, i was only using wd and dash attack in the ways you mentioned when we last talked. It helped me keep aware in game. Regardless, i still ended zoning out at the end of the event. I think I just felt satisfied with my results and I stopped caring as much, or perhaps it was fatigue. Lmk what u think about that.

Thanks again,
Morse

 

[Dr Peepee]

Well, if you normally get fatigued, it's fine to look at that. If you feel you had new conditions that contributed to fatigue, then you should rule that out so only emotional elements remain. Or you could work on them all together. My personal suspicion is you felt satisfied, and working to set new goals and train yourself daily to stay focused will help when this type of problem sets in.

Regardless, I'm glad the work is already paying off some. I hope you can continue to make use of it.

 

[MambaGreenFalco]

Dash threatens Dair. And I'm assuming tippered jab. If it's untippered then yeah it won't do any good.

Side B hangs you in the air more and has less lag for Marth.

Depends on what way they're facing and such, but lasering their landing and sometimes Nair'ing/Dair'ing into them is good. You can dash up laser in place too, or DJ over them to pressure their landing/action upon landing.

It's less good at 0 yeah, but the damage is nice. Sometimes they may be fearing the hit so they don't act and get down easily, but you may want to do falling Bair if you're worried about how they'll act after getting hit. It's not a bad idea though, hard to easily threaten people at 0% anyway.

I mean I don't have a chart of info, but it helps you get up if you SDI it well and are hit higher in the bounce and have more percent.


I would either drift away Bair, FH Shine, or maybe turnaround FH Fair there. You could dash SH Uair too maybe. Again, 0% is silly.

You would have lost from that position if he Fair'd, but if you hit a lower laser/were closer you could have won. Marth could empty land(and do stuff like shield I guess).

Shield drop Fair/Dair, wavedash oos off the platform(will get hit by them swinging a lot), and your listed options.

If you hit that high laser, then just wait it out then punish the lag. Can be dash back or just wait. You could (walk) Fsmash it too sometimes, or even walk WD shine depending on readiness. You can dash back and react and aerial in too, provided you're close enough and react decently. Marth can jab or react(unlikely for average Marth to do) or dash back or go for some type of PS setup. I think waiting or shielding would be good for you there, since a wait helps you punish lag like that, and shield helps if you think waiting is unsafe. FH could still be hit potentially if he's swinging but it would dodge grab so it's a tossup.

If you drifted back a bit before FF you could probably FF and hit safely. Or not FF. Or land behind him instead(Marth's options there aren't so good). I think Marth could have reacted to you DJ'ing and not Nair'd and instead edgedashed or just tried to time an edgehop Fair to hit your landing, and otherwise land on stage if you faded too far away for Fair.

I would have personally SH'd out and DJ Bair'd the Marth here, and DJ'd to grab edge if he airdodged(which he has to do early). You can recover safely if you do this correctly, and it will feel great to get it down. Highly recommend learning the SH out DJ Bair and how far you can go with it. However, you also could have let go Bair or let go shine (Bair) after the Marth Killer and that would work too.

The Fthrow there makes it tough. You have to hold edge until you see his up-B start or he goes below edge, or you fake grabbing edge and go offstage and hit him as he DJs. I would have Bair'd him off before he hit the ground and looked for some Dair to finish him afterward, or Bair him again at worst. You can usually Dair Falcon's up-B, and if you do it late you can dash back if he tries to come in, or dash back into him if he doesn't.

https://vods.co/v/wgnjbm - was watching this set and it brought my attention to a typical falco sheik position at 0:31 where the sheik is on the side plat.

In terms of this exact position in the video, I see the intention of Ginger's nair to beat (trade more likely?) faceroll's SDr fair, but that seems like an awkward way to cover falco's weak front-diagonal spot. Also with the timing of Ginger's jump it seems like turn around bairing wouldn't have hit anything unless faceroll did slight dash forward drop down fair or ginger did fade in sh bair which I don't like to do normally. How could have Ginger dealt with a SDr fair in that position? Seems like the only way to is back up and then play the new position from there.

 

[Dr Peepee]

He lasered in case of immediate shield drop, and then Nair'd a possible delayed one to hit the landing lag I guess. He would've needed to dash in pivot/dash back Bair to hit shield drop or its landing. I think the turnaround jump is fine to threaten Bair and let Sheik's shield shrink if she shields, or otherwise help you Bair/turnaround laser the landing lag, or allow you to go up and threaten with DJ Bair/turnaround laser/waveland into stuff.

 

[MambaGreenFalco]

He lasered in case of immediate shield drop, and then Nair'd a possible delayed one to hit the landing lag I guess. He would've needed to dash in pivot/dash back Bair to hit shield drop or its landing. I think the turnaround jump is fine to threaten Bair and let Sheik's shield shrink if she shields, or otherwise help you Bair/turnaround laser the landing lag, or allow you to go up and threaten with DJ Bair/turnaround laser/waveland into stuff.

Hey pp, one thing I've realized recently is that when sheik's want to stop giving up space they jump. It's quite simple and I want to know your thoughts on it and if you agree because I want to figure out if and how I can implement this general rule into my gameplan vs sheik.

 

[Dr Peepee]

I'd say they could jump or more directly attack into you sometimes, though that's harder against Falco. They could jump for other reasons too.

 

[MambaGreenFalco]

I'd say they could jump or more directly attack into you sometimes, though that's harder against Falco. They could jump for other reasons too.

I think you've said before that Falco should try to be punishing sheik's f tilt as much as possible. What conditioning is required first to be able to comfortably put yourself at a range where you can punish her f tilt? For example after she does sh late fair (drifting forward, in place, and back?).

 

[Dr Peepee]

Being just outside of her Ftilt range, or just in it I suppose, encourages Ftilt. If you laser her and it hits her then there's a decent chance Ftilt can follow. Sometimes if she jumps back like you said, it can be hard to get into the perfect range to punish, but if you get closer with laser and then react you can still punish as Ftilt has a lot of lag. You just need to be careful not to wait too much since that can be exploited.