PPMD's Falco Discussion Thread

[Dr Peepee]

Hope you're well too! I'd be glad to answer whatever you'd like to ask =)

I would do the same plays vs someone who plays non-committal. The advantage of my plays, in my view, is that I am always prepared to counter PS and cover any wild approaches the Marth could do. Moving too close with my plays can still leave me punished by PS of course, but I also believe my tactics can stuff up PS timings more as well. I believe full approaching laser is not efficient for 2 reasons: 1. You do not get the laser out until close to landing, meaning you can be intercepted in your approach easily(and since you must be close, this is easy with many moves). 2. You will absolutely be punished by PS unless it is dash away PS. In place or crouch PS earns a free grab here, and dash away PS can be neutral or a reset if you're not close enough to jab/Ftilt after getting hit which isn't guaranteed. Keep in mind you can't be sure if they get the PS or not, so your followup could be delayed between laser followup vs PS followup. So it is a large gamble that is not in your favor in my perspective.

Your second paragraph is well-founded. It is complicated to play incrementally, and too much extra movement will lead to the very outcome you describe: losing your laser advantage. For this reason I do not recommend using much excess movement between lasers and keeping the gun warm so Marth is respecting it at all times. This is free damage and opens up the very occasional extra movement mixup when you really need it. It of course also opens up aerials more since he will be expecting more lasers, and can even open up you pushing closer to him if he is expecting several lasers before an approach. You getting around jab range from him without him expecting it or throwing out jab is very good for you because now you can cover dash back with aerials and shield poke with the same aerial and otherwise pressure him. Playing around PS and making him whiff that is often good to do before getting to this point, but if you're fairly confident he will go for it(or even 50%), you could laser then immediately attack to hit him post-PS at this range sometimes.
I am unsure if I have been clear enough, but half dash back laser is a good reset if you're ever uncertain and incredibly useful vs Marth.

Some of my corner counters depend on the Marth. 2 important things here: 1. he HAS to care a lot about what you do, 2. look for his habits. I know this can sound obvious but it's very important to remember you don't need to try and cover FH WL if he never does it. Even if Marth does that option in particular, it doesn't matter that much because on some stages you can just space Bair, and on others he has to fear Bair anyway. Anyway, if you over-laser he is more likely to go high, and if you under-laser he is more likely to just swing on you or start moving again. If you Nair you are more susceptible to him going under you, and if you Dair you may lose to aerial OOS more(if you're a bit farther away). If you have him in shield though, you should play just outside of his Fair range because he can't do much at all now. You can even space Bair or even Nair/Dair if you like because he can't do much here. I prefer shooting low anyway to encourage him jumping because roll is free to cover then, FH is not so bad, aerial OOS can't hit me without drift in, WD in will get shot at worst for me, and crouch PS I'm already playing around. Low laser in general I suggest favoring vs Marth.

Anyway I said many things. While perhaps not fully comprehensive, I do think this is useful. What do you think?

 

[Frenzy231199]

Thanks for the quick response, I'm doing good.

So in terms of Approaching Laser, I've found that shooting high lasers (press B within first 4 F of Jump with earliest FF) you end up avoiding the PS because your landing animation ducks under it and then you can go for Shine (Grab makes you stand up and get hit by the PS), Mango has been using this (intentional or not) and it seems to be quite good to catch Jumps as well. The other side of either shooting lowest 3 lasers which he can only standing ps, or delayed no ff lasers to mess up his timing also seem good, but I have played Marths that will PS Grab early and hit me out of the laser startup kind of like you mention. One frustration I have found a lot with this though is it seems very hard to judge whether to Shine, Grab, Walk Shine, DD Aerial etc. dependent on the spacing since very small differences in spacing seem to change the situation a lot.

"Occasional extra movement mixup when you really need it" could you expand a bit on this if possible? Depending on the Marth I've found more success looking for more Laser DD and then baiting out a yolo F-Smash or maybe a FH Aerial, so is this the sort of situations you would be looking to use it in? Or would it be for when you have a read on how someone likes to move between lasers at certain ranges and you want to abuse that (e.g. you know someone likes to Retreating Aerial between lasers so you SH forward with an empty land / WL to take space and then play from there?).

Half Dash Back Laser is probably one of the tools I least know how to utilize versus Marth, I've found it pretty effective so far when I think Marth will SH with an Aerial, or to adjust the spacing to a point where I can better play around PS, but it always feels unnatural to me to give up ground to Laser (e.g. if I know he is going to SH Aerial why would I not just Aerial him out of it etc.) but I think that's just me being impatient / too direct sometimes.

B-Air is a tool I've been trying to work in more when I have Marth cornered, a lot of people seem to be N-Airing or WD'ing towards me so the B-Air feels really powerful, sucks when they out space me with the N-Air and I get sucked in though (I'm probably spacing it too far away?). What you said about over lasering -> he tends to go high, under lasering -> he tends to swing or start moving is a brainwave for me, I felt like I knew it subconsciously but never put the two together.

I'm very conflicted on Laser Heights at the moment, I dunno if you've spoken about this before on here, but Ginger and Dfox are very keen on the Mid Height Lasers that catch Jump and Crouch, and then you try to set up spacings / laser sequences where you will jump over their PS. I've had mixed success with this, where sometimes I will barely get caught by my own laser, or I will laser a frame late and his N-Air will sneak over my Laser and hit me. My old gameplan used to be to pretty much always shoot low hard to PS lasers, and then just play around jumps once I've forced them out, which I felt actually worked quite well when I played Zain (I'll admit he has gotten a lot better at the MU since then though). It sounds like you're in the Laser Low camp and then start to abuse his jumps?

This helps a lot, and I'll be going over my games with some of these concepts in mind, cheers!

 

[Dr Peepee]

Occasional extra movement is used when the Marth will not take advantage of you not lasering by just taking space and smothering you. So yes it could work in your examples. A lot of the time I find it most beneficial to just play a better positioning game or do a more complex approach on a Marth who is gonna just move more.

I find half dash back laser to be useful if you think the Marth may commit, if you're at a spacing you want to fake an approach on, if you want to change your lasering timing some, and sure if you're barely spaced for him to hit you so you move back a little to dodge and pressure at the same time.

Marth Nair beats your Bair due to his disjoint, so it is not wise to swing when you think he will(unless you think he will Fair, but modern Marths seem to prefer just Nair'ing). Glad the line helped!

It sounds like you found more success with low height lasers so until you find some other issue with that it may be better to run it. I find the alternative you mentioned to be too unreliable to be worth considering and even if you could laser that height reliably I'd still think it's less practical honestly. Forcing Marth to jump is GREAT because then he will not be abusing his mobility on you, and forcing harder PS is GREAT because he can miss more and be confused, and acting sooner out of lower laser is GREAT because of frame advantage. So to me it's pretty clear, but I understand that this is not the current prevailing thought in Falco theory anymore. Please feel free to experiment and choose whatever you think is best.

 

[Frenzy231199]

In terms of Half Dash Back Laser being used to fake an approach, what would I want Marth to be respecting for this to be effective? I assume the range where this is most useful is the just outside F-Smash range that you mentioned earlier. My first thoughts that this sequence works well against are him SH Aerialing in some way since you'd get him at a frame disadvantage and can play from there, but then you'd also be able to gain ground if he moves back with Dash Back / WD. I guess the only way it goes wrong is if he chooses to move forwards i.e. Take Laser Dash Forwards or Shield Laser WD Forwards, and even in this case you still just end up in roughly the same spacing just with less stage to work with?

Yeah the Marth N-Air vs Falco B-Air interaction is interesting, I feel like if he is moving forward with the N-Air then you can Backflip B-Air around it and hit him, but if he does it in place you're gonna lose, so it seems you have to read the timing of the jump instead. Modern Marths definitely seem to N-Air more I agree, and it seems like a harder tool to deal with in the situations where they used to F-Air.

I will continue to mess around with different heights and see which I like best, I have experience using both now so hopefully I can make an informed decision, it's just annoying to have to keep changing muscle memory in certain situations! On the topic since you said forcing him to jump is great, would you ever look to high laser him out of his jumps? A scenario I can think of is when you have him in Shield in the corner, would you still be looking to shoot low, and then if you are spaced well you can just hit him for jumping after your laser anyway, or would you switch to shooting high, and then you can just react to WD In (I know Ginger likes this route a lot)? And also if you are shooting low, would you ever find yourself in a situation where Marth is jumping over your lasers to hit you (usually with N-Air when I play Marths) or is this me just Shooting Lasers in the wrong spots?

 

[Dr Peepee]

Marth would be respecting an approaching aerial out of dash back. So the mixup is dash back laser in place vs dash back aerial in. There is more you can do there, but that's the basic part.

Fair is better if they time it well, but most Marths would rather let it hang out. They each have their place, and Nair is uniquely useful vs Falco who cannot DD grab it so easily. You can also Dair over his Nair if he FFs it, or dash attack if he doesn't. Lasering the landing is always great.

Lasering Marth out of his jump is fine, especially if you want to stop his Nair as we mentioned earlier. High laser can let him Fair before you can do anything I think though, so I can't imagine a reliable scenario for this. I guess with corner shielding Marth you could do that, but it's corner shielding Marth so he's so boned you can do a lot of stuff that doesn't normally work lol. I could see Marth jumping into this and Fair'ing out of it if it's a reliable play, but yeah otherwise Marth just has to wait past the basic laser reaction point or go to edge.
Yes of course Marth jumps over lasers to hit me, that is the point. But it's hard for him to do. For one thing, he has to run in first which is already good for me. If I half dash back laser at the spacing where he has to Nair early to hit me aerial'ing him, then I will be far away now to laser his aerial and that's good for me. Or I could react and let dash stall then just Dair him lol. If he comes farther forward then laser will just hit him, or I could also aerial into him. So again I don't mind him jumping and in fact it feels good to create that scenario. Marth is better at counterattacking than he is bumrushing someone, so encouraging that option feels good for Falco.

 

[Frenzy231199]

Yeah that's the thought process I had when I was thinking about using Low Lasers instead, you start to risk him jumping over, but in turn that can also generate openings such as beating out the N-Air with something, or lasering from further back to catch him out of the Air, so I'm glad I was on the right track there. So generally if you are close enough and you execute well, you can Laser N-Air combo and Marth's F-Air isn't quick enough, this can get a bit messy when they SDI, and how the Laser hits, but there are definitely situations where it is consistent, this is usually my go to for dealing with Marth jumping in the corner, or when he tries to approach into the corner with N-Air, but again these situations will come up less if you are low lasering. Reading back on what you said actually yeah, I feel like it works more in the situations where he's already in a bad spot (He's Cornered or Approaching with Jump) so it seems like an unneccessary play to make? I think the main trend I'm starting to see is that the Mid Height is a catch all in a lot of spots, but it's very hard to execute and is lower reward unless you're getting a N-Air combo off of it generally, whereas shooting low is higher reward since you are at better frame advantage, easier to execute, but opens you up more to Marth if he chooses to start committing over you with Jumps.

D-Airing more to beat Marth N-Air is interesting, I've always tried to go for the old N-Air him before or between the hits advice, but D-Airing when he drifts forward with it, and especially when it knocks down could be good.

I've been messing around with labbing some juggle setups vs Marth and I'd be interested to hear your thoughts, specifically low % scenarios off of Up-Throw. Marths in my experience have gotten better at SDI and DJ'ing out to avoid followups, so I want to punish some of these habits a bit harder. In general I think my high percent juggles are fine (I usually just look for B-Airs or to hit him with High Lasers when descending) but low % seems to sometimes put you in a tricky spot where even if you B-Air / Up-Air him he's gonna be in line with or end up under you, and then there's a chance you get reversalled from there, especially on FD. I've been thinking about using Shine, and High Lasers more at Low %, as these seem to set up safer hits?

https://youtu.be/xXYCbrAAWw0

Juggles vs Marth using Dash WD

youtu.be

Juggles vs Marth on Platform Stages

youtu.be

Videos are a bit wonky but hopefully you get the idea, I'm usually looking to SH Up-Air if they just fall from the Up-Throw with a F-Air and don't Jump, and then if they do jump I can see that and then set up some sort of Laser or Movement to get under them. On platform stages I feel like it's better to FH Shine instead of look for SH Up-Air as you seem to be able to cover more, but you'd also be more exposed to FF / No FF / Drift Mixups. Let me know what you think, and I'd be happy to set up some recordings of some other scenarios too if you'd want to discuss them.

 

[Dr Peepee]

I don't feel like Marth can easily open you up with jumps, so it does not feel like a large disadvantage to me if it is one.

You can catch his landing with Dair if he FFs. Good at many percents.

I'd say you're on the right path generally with these juggling ideas. Uair on their landing is much weaker in general due to speed and also them spacing you out plus holding down earlier percents.

Sometimes you can't Uthrow if he can just get straight to a top platform of course.

 

[Frenzy231199]

Dr Peepee I played Makenshi a bit yesterday (Not sure if you might've played him when you came to EU, he's quite an oldschool Marth) was pretty brutal haha. I'm just gonna write some thoughts here, just because it will help me vent a bit, but if you have any thoughts they would be appreciated.

After we played he mentioned that I get baited quite easily, now I can think of a few situations where this was the case (stuff like he would move forwards when I am cornered, I would approach with an Aerial, but he would then SH Back and hit me with a spaced Aerial), but then whenever I tried to Laser or Dash to wait him out, I also got hit out of it a good proportion of the time, so I'm just wondering if this is just a 50/50 I have to accept, or if I could be doing something else to sort of play around this. I got decent mileage out of FH, but I also suspect there's a way I could be moving forwards slightly, and out range his fadeback, while also holding my ground (Maybe a Dash Fadeback Aerial?). I feel as if I have a good understanding of what each characters options are in a lot of situations, and what beats what, but it often doesn't seem to compute fast enough vs him, and when it does other parts of my game seem to degrade. I guess maybe I need more experience playing at that level versus Marth, but it was also pretty demoralizing to get destroyed while knowing what's going on but not be able to keep up / execute well enough.

I think both using baits, and responding to them is probably the weakest part of my game right now, I think I just get so caught up with responding to exactly what they look like they will do immediately that I just give myself up very easily, and it makes me quite predictable, even if my ideas are good. I feel as if I understand the concept of using threats to get your opponent to try to cover one set of options, when really you are looking for the other, but I feel like how I go about this is always obvious (maybe because I know what I'm going to do, and I don't think I know what my opponent will do lol). Where do you think I should start when trying to understand how to respond to opponents trying to bait me better? I also feel like I don't really understand how to bait players that are quite patient / non committal, I guess at that point I just need to pressure / take space more until they start respecting me?

 

[Dr Peepee]

I'm assuming all of this first paragraph is about being cornered but I'm not entirely certain. If he is doing primarily SH backward when you move in, you could waveland back or DJ out of SH in if you want to play with his reaction. I do not know how he is hitting you when you waited or lasered, and I do not know how much you waited, so this is hard to respond to. You can dash FH over him to top platform sometimes though. It sounds like he is using a lot of mixups against you and you aren't used to that yet. Perhaps he is using some that you aren't aware of. It's hard to say without more information.

The second paragraph gives a lot of good context. If someone just moves in and you always lunge, or you switch to always overwait because BRO HES GONNA FAKE, then that is possible to play upon. Someone need only start to move in and you may react early and then they can choose what to do because you acted early. So this is a positional concern in part I believe. It also sounds like you have to learn to play upon people's actions after their initial one. If someone moves in then out, you can punish the out directly if you yolo, but it's usually better to soft predict/react and take a bit of stage(unless of course they only move back a little, but you can hedge against this, etc).

Against a patient player, yes it is important to encourage them to make a move of some kind. Getting closer does this, which is why I like slight lasers forward or moving in then lasering backward slightly.

A bait is worth defining here. How does "an initial action designed to force a response from the opponent, but one that will not be used to directly attack" sound?

 

[R3_]

What do I do vs falcon when he tech chases me, I feel like no matter if I tech in place, roll in, roll away, they just always catch my tech option, it's probably that im just too predictable but I don't know how to break those habits

 

[Frenzy231199]

"It also sounds like you have to learn to play upon people's actions after their initial one." Yeah this sentence hits the nail on the head I think, I only really have planned out the first interaction, rather than the sequence that follows, I feel like it's hard to figure out all the things they could do after though from the new position? Maybe I just haven't thought about it enough so it's unnatural to me.

"An initial action designed to force a response from the opponent, but one that will not be used to directly attack" This sounds really good, I'll keep this definition in mind when I think more about this, I have a summit set vs Makenshi today so there will probably be some good examples in there if you end up catching it.

 

[Dr Peepee]

What do I do vs falcon when he tech chases me, I feel like no matter if I tech in place, roll in, roll away, they just always catch my tech option, it's probably that im just too predictable but I don't know how to break those habits

Missing tech more helps you. Falcon struggles with handling GUA vs wakeup shine for example. Also watch to see how Falcon moves just before you tech.

"It also sounds like you have to learn to play upon people's actions after their initial one." Yeah this sentence hits the nail on the head I think, I only really have planned out the first interaction, rather than the sequence that follows, I feel like it's hard to figure out all the things they could do after though from the new position? Maybe I just haven't thought about it enough so it's unnatural to me.

"An initial action designed to force a response from the opponent, but one that will not be used to directly attack" This sounds really good, I'll keep this definition in mind when I think more about this, I have a summit set vs Makenshi today so there will probably be some good examples in there if you end up catching it.

I will explain intention theory briefly. There are 3 levels of intent. The first intent is a direct attack. Marth running at you and Nair'ing into you. The second level is a fake then attack. Marth running in, WD'ing back, then Nair'ing in. The third level is Marth running in, WD'ing back, then moving in and SH'ing back and then Nair'ing in. I have greatly oversimplified this, but knowing intention theory is useful when thinking on what level someone may attack or defend. It sounds like you operate primarily in the first intent, and you need to look at their full second or third intention strategy more often.

 

[Frenzy231199]

Missing tech more helps you. Falcon struggles with handling GUA vs wakeup shine for example. Also watch to see how Falcon moves just before you tech.


I will explain intention theory briefly. There are 3 levels of intent. The first intent is a direct attack. Marth running at you and Nair'ing into you. The second level is a fake then attack. Marth running in, WD'ing back, then Nair'ing in. The third level is Marth running in, WD'ing back, then moving in and SH'ing back and then Nair'ing in. I have greatly oversimplified this, but knowing intention theory is useful when thinking on what level someone may attack or defend. It sounds like you operate primarily in the first intent, and you need to look at their full second or third intention strategy more often.

Yes I feel like I understand it currently as he's gonna attack now, or after a beat, but I don't consider the 3rd level that much, and I definitely don't see it as the opponent having different strategies for each level.

So how would you typically approach analysing these 2nd and 3rd levels of intent? I feel as if the higher the levels the larger range of options there are, but I guess they also loop back around sometimes. To use your example, If you try to Aerial Marth out off his Level 1 N-Air it would be the same as waiting and then Aerialing Marth out of his Level 3 N-Air? That's how I would see it at the moment but it sounds like it's more nuanced than that. I also feel like Lasers can disrupt this a bit which makes it difficult to see some of these patterns from the opponent? When I play other characters or try Falco without Lasers I feel like I pick up on very different habits and I'm not sure if this is good, bad or what.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Falco does complicate it some because he directly stops opponent movement and it's hard to act when he does. However, this is beneficial because if you know which intent you're acting on to attack, your opponent can act on that to counter it. Similarly, what a Marth may do when they set up PS may be different at different intents(they may go for a pivot grab on you first if they assume an attack for example), and also whether Marth decides to get on a platform or not if he thinks you will wait a while/he isn't sure of your intent. I am trying not to overcomplicate it haha.

But yes using my example, you could theoretically shoot once and then do a bit of movement or a WD back or something after the first fake and then on his second fake he'd see you waiting so he'd think he's safe to go in....and then using the conditioning he built up may assume you'll play passively so he could overshoot his Nair. You knowing he's highly unlikely to fake 3 times in a row(it happens but it's uncommon) set up to react after his second fake and see he didn't aerial early so you intercept him before/as he jumps and Dair him, or laser his startup, or dash WD back Fsmash, etc.

Does this make sense?

 

[Zaprodex]

Hi PPMD! Hope your streams and stuff are doing well, I stop in every once and while to see you play. I'm a pretty new player, started seriously around October of last year when I went to my first college local, and I've been making some major progress! Your shadowboxing in particular has helped a lot. I went from getting 4 stocked by pr'd player's secondaries, to now where I can take games and even sets off decent players . I'm feeling really optimistic towards my future growth and was wondering about some conceptual things.

Should I be grinding flowcharts or going with the flow? So far, I've mostly learned combos and punish by just letting the hitstun system do its thing and trying to react and recognize patterns. I really like up-air and learning under-utilized move potential. I don't play very flowcharty though, and I'm not sure if it's good or not. I've been told by people at my local I have a pretty decent and mixup heavy punish, but I feel like there's got to be an intelligent way to blend my style with more flowchart oriented combos. Maybe I should grind pillar combos, flowchart shine followups, and other things and try and try to blend it with my style?

Also was wondering if I should grind grounded movement, or maybe I'm asking if it's worth the effort I'm putting in during practice. I really like to be slippery and confusing in neutral and it seems to get me a decent bit of mileage against better players! Even if my punish or other things are lacking, my neutral can help keep me afloat. I feel like this could be really beneficial to me, and a lot of it is inspired from your older tournament vods.

Lastly, was wondering how big mindset plays at a more serious level. I'd say I have a pretty good learning mindset, a lot of my hobbies are hard and time-consuming so I've gotten good at detaching my ego from my performance. At the same time though, this almost sounds like a downside possibly in the future. Right now it helps me as I can play melee for like 2-3 hours just losing and still feeling satisfied, and I feel like if I want to get really strong at melee I should try and hone this.

Thank you so much for all your help! I really appreciate the wealth of resources and knowledge you put out .

 

[Dr Peepee]

Awesome to hear your growth! Hoping I can help you get farther =)

Yeah it would be good to balance out. Learning when Dair knocks down, how to get some guaranteed kill setups, learning basic stuff like Bair'ing them offstage to set up edgeguards so you can mix it up more later would all be pretty helpful I think.

Yeah! Grounded movement helps you adjust your spacing for your aerials and mixes up your laser timing as well. Very crucial and underused by Falcos.

Mindset becomes a larger issue the stronger you become. If you feel it's not an issue, then I wouldn't worry about it. The main thing is to feel connected with the game and not let the praise of others become your driving force, or something you're afraid to lose.

 

[Frenzy231199]

Falco does complicate it some because he directly stops opponent movement and it's hard to act when he does. However, this is beneficial because if you know which intent you're acting on to attack, your opponent can act on that to counter it. Similarly, what a Marth may do when they set up PS may be different at different intents(they may go for a pivot grab on you first if they assume an attack for example), and also whether Marth decides to get on a platform or not if he thinks you will wait a while/he isn't sure of your intent. I am trying not to overcomplicate it haha.

But yes using my example, you could theoretically shoot once and then do a bit of movement or a WD back or something after the first fake and then on his second fake he'd see you waiting so he'd think he's safe to go in....and then using the conditioning he built up may assume you'll play passively so he could overshoot his Nair. You knowing he's highly unlikely to fake 3 times in a row(it happens but it's uncommon) set up to react after his second fake and see he didn't aerial early so you intercept him before/as he jumps and Dair him, or laser his startup, or dash WD back Fsmash, etc.

Does this make sense?

What you said makes sense, most interesting bit to me is "Similarly, what a Marth may do when they set up PS may be different at different intents(they may go for a pivot grab on you first if they assume an attack for example), and also whether Marth decides to get on a platform or not if he thinks you will wait a while/he isn't sure of your intent.". I feel as if I can recognize when Marth will do different options in the same situation but I've never really linked it to his levels and my levels of intent.

So what would be some other ways of approaching that situation above where Marth is acting on the 2nd / 3rd levels of intent? I feel as if my answer previously would be something along the lines of doing a full approaching laser to take the space and "call his bluff", but after talking a bit here, I figured I should probably be trying to inch forwards with some sort of movement sequence, shoot a Half Approaching Laser, or try and read his 2nd / 3rd intent with something, as well as the option of lunging with Full Approaching Laser if I think it's worth the risk reward?

I think the hardest part for me in practically applying this is the style of mixing up when you lunge forward with Full Approaching Laser at any spacing is a very "Easy" style in terms of thinking on levels. It seems like you only really need to understand what timing they are playing at, so then you can focus on other areas, and also if someone doesn't know how to deal with it it feels like an easy win a lot of the time (I see this most in Falco Dittos I think). I guess figuring out where I should actually be using Full Approaching Laser, instead of just using it as my go to would be a good start.

 

[Dr Peepee]

You can also slight laser forward as Marth begins to move in, giving you frame advantage when closer. You can see when he wants to come in, get to a spot to encourage his Nair, then back up and counter it or laser the startup and pressure his landing.

I definitely would suggest dialing back full approach laser. Not just because it helps you know when to use it more, but also because it then encourages you to explore more things and strengthen your full approach laser with better mixups.

 

[Frenzy231199]

You can also slight laser forward as Marth begins to move in, giving you frame advantage when closer. You can see when he wants to come in, get to a spot to encourage his Nair, then back up and counter it or laser the startup and pressure his landing.

I definitely would suggest dialing back full approach laser. Not just because it helps you know when to use it more, but also because it then encourages you to explore more things and strengthen your full approach laser with better mixups.

Yeah Half Lasering in is one of the things I thought of, just wasn't sure if it was good to risk getting hit by a level 1 N-Air in, to be able to get initiative back if he goes for a Level 2 / 3 Approach. I suppose if this spot comes up vs Marth it's usually when you wouldn't have control in the first place so it might be willing to do.

I know one of the things Dfox likes to tell people is to not shoot a laser in place / retreating if you could get hit for it, but then I also feel like there are certain spots where it is a good enough risk to take as Falco's options aren't much better such as when you are cornered vs fast characters. Not sure what you think?

 

[Dr Peepee]

You could dash back for the level 1 Nair, then laser in as he would start up the second intent Nair.

Yeah I agree with you. If you literally NEVER laser in place or retreating when you could get hit, you limit yourself to Bair/Utilt/FH/yolo/shield and if people sniff out the yolo or make you stop doing it then they pressure for free even if they just space for the other stuff. Laser is still worthwhile there imo.

 

[Frenzy231199]

So when you go for something like that, do you have in your head that he will either come in with a level 1 N-Air, or he's going to wait and then come in with a 2nd intent N-Air, so I will Dash Back then Laser In to cover both? I feel as if usually when I think about these things I'm along the lines of I can do this option which will cover if he does this set of options at 1st intent, but I've never really considered how my options cover a combination of 1st and 2nd intent threats.

" they pressure for free even if they just space for the other stuff " Yeah this is how I always feel when I end up dd'ing too long, or am cornered, and so I'm in a position where I can't laser safely, I usually know that they will wait and just space me out but because I'm locking myself out of the option of Lasering, I feel as if I can't really do anything about it. My aim atm is to make my default to try and reposition and set up a better spot, but I think sometimes the low hanging fruit is just to take the risk and shoot the laser.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Yeah, but sometimes if their first intent is fast enough or at a certain spacing, you could not cover both layers of intent.

If you mix yolo aerial and laser and dash back, that's gonna be hard for pretty much anyone to reliably cover.

 

[Frenzy231199]

Yeah, but sometimes if their first intent is fast enough or at a certain spacing, you could not cover both layers of intent.

If you mix yolo aerial and laser and dash back, that's gonna be hard for pretty much anyone to reliably cover.

When you dash back in a spot like that have you already decided what you will do after it or are you just reacting to what they do and then making a decision? or does it depend

 

[Dr Peepee]

If they're mad close, you may have a small small amount of time to react but otherwise guessing. It really depends on character, stage position, player, and what has happened recently. If you can ever rule out a quick attack then of course you can choose not to decide in advance for example.

 

[Frenzy231199]

If they're mad close, you may have a small small amount of time to react but otherwise guessing. It really depends on character, stage position, player, and what has happened recently. If you can ever rule out a quick attack then of course you can choose not to decide in advance for example.

Okay that's cool, I have a lot of trouble understanding when I have time to react to something and when I have to guess, it's something I haven't really thought about when I do analysis so I'm having to back track through my knowledge and figure it out lol

 

[Frenzy231199]

Okay so this time Dr Peepee I have a few discussion points about Dashes between Lasers. I've been trying out the Long Dash Back -> Dash Forward Half Approaching Laser, and it's been working well but I don't think I full understand why. Usually when it's working well the opponent tries to Jump at Me or WD's into me (been mainly trying this vs Marth) at the timing where I laser right next to them which is great. But I'm trying to figure out why it works so much better for me that just shooting 2 Lasers in Place? When you do the Dash Laser sequence you end up in pretty much the same spot from what I can tell, maybe slightly further in front, but in a vacuum you've essentially just done a slower version on 2 Lasers in Place.

A few things come to mind for me here:

1. The timing mixup on the lasers can catch some approaches in more preferable situations e.g. catches Marth as he's jumping towards you, or at the end of his WD, rather than stuffing the beginning of it
2. The Dash Away at the start lets you avoid some attacks, and then move back in when it's safe (Although I am doing this on a read not on reaction to seeing them whiff / move)
3. I have more time to see what they are doing before my Laser comes out because I am watching them the whole time during the sequence, letting me get ready to Laser N-Air him out of the Air, or Grab / Aerial a WD in etc.
4. It gives the opponent a visual cue of me Dashing (more questions on that later)

The times when it hasn't worked, seem to be when either they delay their approach significantly so that it catches me out of my approaching laser, or they are a character that can just avoid the mixup entirely (Fox FH N-Air was the main culprit here)

So as I said in 4. I've been thinking about the visual cue side of it a lot too, are they seeing my dash away then deciding to move in because of it? Or were they going to move in after the Laser regardless. I do use Dash Back Dash In Approaching Aerial a lot but I don't think I do it at the same ranges I am doing this New Laser Sequence at. It also makes me wonder should I be doing Dash Forward -> Dash Back Half Laser more, instead of straight up Laser -> Dash Back Half Laser which doesn't offer the same cue? I've never really thought about what my opponent is reacting to in my movement, only that they are picking an option after Laser so some insight here would be really useful!

 

[Dr Peepee]

Sometimes it's due to the dash away, sometimes regardless, sometimes they want to move in because the lasers let up a little. Often it's not a regardless play vs Falco, since no one wants to run into lasers lol.

Anyway, you're getting the right ideas. Staggered timing allows opponents to think they have time, and also extends individual laser usefulness. Moving into them pushes your aerial threat on them, while moving back makes them feel they can breathe. Both may encourage an attack for different reasons, with the first being because you are closer with no laser out, and the second being you may be giving off defensive vibes. The feel of these will also change at different ranges, with dash back perhaps being even more dangerous when fairly close to your opponent for example.

 

[Frenzy231199]

Sometimes it's due to the dash away, sometimes regardless, sometimes they want to move in because the lasers let up a little. Often it's not a regardless play vs Falco, since no one wants to run into lasers lol.

Anyway, you're getting the right ideas. Staggered timing allows opponents to think they have time, and also extends individual laser usefulness. Moving into them pushes your aerial threat on them, while moving back makes them feel they can breathe. Both may encourage an attack for different reasons, with the first being because you are closer with no laser out, and the second being you may be giving off defensive vibes. The feel of these will also change at different ranges, with dash back perhaps being even more dangerous when fairly close to your opponent for example.

Okay so after doing some more thinking / testing these out, my followup is when do we want to be Lasering in Place instead of Dashing between Lasers?

My thoughts were:

1. When you already have a good position set up with your Laser e.g. Marth is cornered in Shield and you are just outside of F-Air OOS range

2. When you need a 2nd Laser out quickly to stuff an option? e.g. 2 Lasers would stuff a take Laser SH N-Air from Fox

3. When you want to control the opponent's movement between Lasers more e.g. the opponent has a high propensity to dash and wd between lasers, so you need to laser him at a faster rate to slow him down (I guess with this one I am also talking about Laser into Full / Half Approaching Laser also)

Other than these situations it feels like doing dashes between Lasers in some way would lead to a more favourable situation e.g. spacing better around an attack, being able to react to the situation better, anti-meta timing of Lasers etc.

I think I have a good understanding of how Laser In Place, Half Approaching Laser, and Full Approaching Laser all interact with each other and the opponent, but it's been hard to think about them in tandem with some of the Laser Dash sequences that we've been talking about.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Yeah I suppose so. My personal view is that 2 lasers in place need to be pretty rarely done, as you may be better served by dashing back or slight waiting more often. Still, yes that is why you want to do 2 in place.

 

[TheNewbLu]

Hello everyone! I’ve been out of playing smash for a really long time and was wondering if anyone could point me in a good direction. I want to start grinding out some tech skill again and maybe play some games online. As an ends to this I was hoping maybe some better players could link me to resources they think might help someone who’s not necessarily new to the game but been gone so long they’re starting from scratch. I’d really appreciate any help falco mains ty in advance! I’ve got a lot of extra time on my hands with school being out for a little while so I thought I’d try to do some daily practice and see if I couldn’t shape up to not wanna sink into a hole every time I play someone.

 

[Dr Peepee]

A great resource that is big but will have everything you need is meleelibrary.com

Maybe SSBM tutorials could help some as well. The new Uncle Punch training mode released recently too you could get that.

 

[TheNewbLu]

A great resource that is big but will have everything you need is meleelibrary.com

Maybe SSBM tutorials could help some as well. The new Uncle Punch training mode released recently too you could get that.

Is this training mod something you can setup like slippi or 20xx with dolphin? That sounds really cool. Definitely gonna check out melee library! Also whoa it’s ppmd! :O your who made me wanna play falco back in 2015! Ty for the response! Your super cool thank you so much!

 

[Dr Peepee]

Yes that is exactly the same! You can view Uncle Punch on twitter for the newest, or just ask around for the most recent publicly available one.

And yeah hi!!!! You're very welcome and glad to help =)

 

[TheNewbLu]

So, I've ben trying to practice solo and play a little unranked on Slippi and I just cannot seem to integrate much of my practice (SHFFLs & Wavedashes) into playing against opponents! Is this something that just gets easier with time? I am only on day 2 of practicing so maybe I'm just being impatient! Uncle Punch is super cool and I def. plan on dropping some $$$ to get the newer version!

 

[Dr Peepee]

Some of that is just that you haven't practiced enough. But be sure to also be practicing in the way you want to use these tools in matches. For example, SHFFL in place to learn to do it, do it forward to learn to approach, then do it out of laser or out of laser dash back to have some mixups.

 

[TheNewbLu]

Some of that is just that you haven't practiced enough. But be sure to also be practicing in the way you want to use these tools in matches. For example, SHFFL in place to learn to do it, do it forward to learn to approach, then do it out of laser or out of laser dash back to have some mixups.

Is there a way to share replays? IDK how to explain it but I just don't think I can play Falco...I haven't done any training with her but my movement felt so much better on Shiek and idk how to explain it. I took her into unranked and had some platform wavelands and some cool dash mixups. I'm still losing like every match but I felt more able to somewhat dictate where I was on the stage as opposed to just being combo food I might try to practice both but that seems counter productive in the short term anywhos is bedtime for me, shift at 5:00 AM! yikes. TY again PP <3 <3 gonna think about this more at work and maybe need to feel my way through the roster again, as I haven't really in over 5 years.

 

[Marzipann]

Hiya PPMD

First I just want to say you are my favourite player and can't wait for you to return whenever you are ready.
So I saw an IBDW video about Falco players and he was basically saying that most Falco's fall into a trap and never truly learn the game which hurts them from progressing past being good players to something more. I've heard Mang0 say a similar thing a while ago. I was thinking about this and I am pretty sure the idea is that most Falco's focus in on tech skill rather than thinking about the neutral game and mixups etc. I only started playing in may of this year so I was wondering what your perspective on this was. Was this something that you thought about as you were getting better as Falco? If so what did you do to not fall into that trap? I hope my question makes sense. Thanks!

 

[Ober]

Hi PPMD,

I've been trying out the laser in place dash back mixups you've talked to Frenzy about, and I'm having some trouble when the Marth doesn't just do moves in place / wavedash back / dash away. Especially approaching full drift in nair and FH / DJing towards me with aerials. I'd like some options that you think are good vs these options.

Here's an example on that full drift in nair example. In this precise clip i shield stopped after my dash back b/c sometimes Marth's just take laser fsmash in this scenario and I didn't react well to him shielding the laser and not taking it, but even if I didn't shield stop I'm not even sure what I should have done instead, or what necessarily beats this immediate approaching sh nair after shielding laser.

Ober vs Akir 5DOM Bracket

youtu.be

If you watch more of this game you see I git hit by this option A LOT in a lot more scenarios and im just not sure what moves / things falco can do vs it without resorting to reading movement with high laser to stuff it.

Here's r examples of that FH/DJ toward thing i mentioned that marths uses to get over my lasers and approach

Ober vs Akir 5DOM Bracket

youtu.be

Ober vs Akir 5DOM Bracket

youtu.be

 

[Dr Peepee]

Hiya PPMD

First I just want to say you are my favourite player and can't wait for you to return whenever you are ready.
So I saw an IBDW video about Falco players and he was basically saying that most Falco's fall into a trap and never truly learn the game which hurts them from progressing past being good players to something more. I've heard Mang0 say a similar thing a while ago. I was thinking about this and I am pretty sure the idea is that most Falco's focus in on tech skill rather than thinking about the neutral game and mixups etc. I only started playing in may of this year so I was wondering what your perspective on this was. Was this something that you thought about as you were getting better as Falco? If so what did you do to not fall into that trap? I hope my question makes sense. Thanks!

Thank you!!! <33

This wasn't so common when I played, this question. My assumption is that Falcos just try to crutch on laser a bunch and some may overspam tech or try to be in perfect positions when Falco is a dynamic character, and they end up too stuck after some initial good results. They don't often learn the game super well because laser does a lot for you early on with it being a pressure, edgeguard, defense, offense, sometimes combo tool. Avoiding this means playing without laser some, and also just being sure to get perspectives on how to improve and not take advice for granted. For tech skill, you can learn to play at different pacings and this helps a lot.

Hi PPMD,

I've been trying out the laser in place dash back mixups you've talked to Frenzy about, and I'm having some trouble when the Marth doesn't just do moves in place / wavedash back / dash away. Especially approaching full drift in nair and FH / DJing towards me with aerials. I'd like some options that you think are good vs these options.

Here's an example on that full drift in nair example. In this precise clip i shield stopped after my dash back b/c sometimes Marth's just take laser fsmash in this scenario and I didn't react well to him shielding the laser and not taking it, but even if I didn't shield stop I'm not even sure what I should have done instead, or what necessarily beats this immediate approaching sh nair after shielding laser.

Ober vs Akir 5DOM Bracket

youtu.be

If you watch more of this game you see I git hit by this option A LOT in a lot more scenarios and im just not sure what moves / things falco can do vs it without resorting to reading movement with high laser to stuff it.

Here's r examples of that FH/DJ toward thing i mentioned that marths uses to get over my lasers and approach

Ober vs Akir 5DOM Bracket

youtu.be

Ober vs Akir 5DOM Bracket

youtu.be

First clip, I believe you could backflip over the Nair and Bair/Dair him. If not, you should have been able to dash away and avoid Fsmash so the shield wasn't necessary.

That first DJ clip is kinda wonky. Delaying the laser may have been good since Marth can't do a lot out of Bair besides it. But you may have been able to turnaround Utilt given he DJ Fair'd so was in lag. Maybe you could have jump shined actually?

FH Bair for the second, you even set it up perfectly! But dash FH Nair is also good. Wait, you did that LOL so that doesn't seem like it should be an issue for you?

 

[Ober]

Thank you!!! <33

This wasn't so common when I played, this question. My assumption is that Falcos just try to crutch on laser a bunch and some may overspam tech or try to be in perfect positions when Falco is a dynamic character, and they end up too stuck after some initial good results. They don't often learn the game super well because laser does a lot for you early on with it being a pressure, edgeguard, defense, offense, sometimes combo tool. Avoiding this means playing without laser some, and also just being sure to get perspectives on how to improve and not take advice for granted. For tech skill, you can learn to play at different pacings and this helps a lot.


First clip, I believe you could backflip over the Nair and Bair/Dair him. If not, you should have been able to dash away and avoid Fsmash so the shield wasn't necessary.

That first DJ clip is kinda wonky. Delaying the laser may have been good since Marth can't do a lot out of Bair besides it. But you may have been able to turnaround Utilt given he DJ Fair'd so was in lag. Maybe you could have jump shined actually?

FH Bair for the second, you even set it up perfectly! But dash FH Nair is also good. Wait, you did that LOL so that doesn't seem like it should be an issue for you?

Thanks, yea I do the FH bair but I wanted an example and to know if the counter i used to it was good / consistent. backflip bair/dair makes sense vs the full approaching nair. should i just always backflip there so i can choose with a later reaction if I want to laser or not? since the nair hits regular dash back laser. I honestly never up tilt / jump shine vs the full hop / dj towards. i guess at that falling height the hitboxes interact well.