PPMD's Falco Discussion Thread

[genkaku]

PP is pretty darn fun to watch.
But so are Shiz and Mango. For different reasons, though.

 

[Smedwicks]

I asked this in another thread, but I'll ask here to try and get better results. Any ways to help with waveshining? I try, but I either don't jump smoothly enough or can't connect the whole thing together. If anyone can give any advice on how to practice it better or to get it to string together well would be great. Thanks.

 

[FoxLisk]

i just watched set one of dr pp vs hbox gfs from TO6. er, video one. video two is only on blip.tv and sleepy's blip lags like a *****.

dr pp: you got wd back -> grabbed way too many times. be more careful with your commitments.

also many times you were above hbox and you were going to land next to him (in front of or behind). everytime this situation came up, you threw out an aerial knowing that it was almost definitely not going to hit him. try mixing up with wavelands and just regular landing, cause it's suboptimal. you got punished once or twice. and waveland in->shine (or possibly other options) will get you ****ed. Also for some reason he was resting oos when you laser grabbed. that was ridiculous.

anyway, you also did some cool stuff. ASDIing dair up and bairing him out of it is nuts, for example

 

[JPOBS]

counterpicking to RC was amazing

 

[Dr Peepee]

i just watched set one of dr pp vs hbox gfs from TO6. er, video one. video two is only on blip.tv and sleepy's blip lags like a *****.

dr pp: you got wd back -> grabbed way too many times. be more careful with your commitments.

also many times you were above hbox and you were going to land next to him (in front of or behind). everytime this situation came up, you threw out an aerial knowing that it was almost definitely not going to hit him. try mixing up with wavelands and just regular landing, cause it's suboptimal. you got punished once or twice. and waveland in->shine (or possibly other options) will get you ****ed. Also for some reason he was resting oos when you laser grabbed. that was ridiculous.

anyway, you also did some cool stuff. ASDIing dair up and bairing him out of it is nuts, for example

It's tough to get a solid commitment because if they WD back and you don't get the punish then they could aerial at any point afterward and then you'd have lost your moment to even have a chance to pressure. I'd say my tech and my reading/countering of those types of situations needs to improve.

Can you link me to an example of this please?

Edit: Watched it myself and can understand what you're saying.

 

[unknown522]

counterpicking to RC was amazing

yeah. I was ****ing impressed.

PP is such a beast.

Also, my falco is getting beast vs non-spacies.

 

[FoxLisk]

It's tough to get a solid commitment because if they WD back and you don't get the punish then they could aerial at any point afterward and then you'd have lost your moment to even have a chance to pressure. I'd say my tech and my reading/countering of those types of situations needs to improve.

Can you link me to an example of this please?

Edit: Watched it myself and can understand what you're saying.

well i was just searching through and looking for examples, but I guess if you dont need them anymore I won't bother.

I have a question though: youve said a few times that you always have to be on a different level than puff. is that just because you can't compete with the priority of the bair, or is there any deeper thinking going on there?

 

[Dr Peepee]

well i was just searching through and looking for examples, but I guess if you dont need them anymore I won't bother.

I have a question though: youve said a few times that you always have to be on a different level than puff. is that just because you can't compete with the priority of the bair, or is there any deeper thinking going on there?

Ahhhhh that's the big question.

The first answer to this is that it's always always always best to be on a different plane of height vs Puff. Puff ***** moving side to side but she's floaty and has slow rising jumps so going up and down are tough for her. You have to kind of take advantage of that in any way you can, so that's why falling on her/rising into her are such good strategies. So I guess I don't feel like you can straight up compete with Bair if Puff gets to float in on you. This leads me to the second part, and if you guys all think I'm dumb or johnning or whatever then I'm sorry so just bare with me I guess, I'm legitimately working on trying to figure this out but haven't had enough time to study it yet.

So, the reason why I get sort of overwhelmed vs Puff is the basic neutral position involving her Bair. Lasering doesn't really stop it to me because she can just hit me in the head/take the laser and Fair me. Both of those have answers(Bair back at Bair or PS it or duck under it, etc and CC the Fair or Utilt/Bair it or something), but I tend to find that once these counters happen then Puff can manipulate her spacing in such a way that sort of allows her to take the middle ground back from you. By being able to come in horizontally so effectively with Bair/just floating in(that's actually kinda hard to react to when you're also trying to keep out of Bair range and keep moving so you don't make yourself easy to come in on...).

I guess I just feel like Puff can take the middle away from Falco safely(see: the last part of the PS match before I get the Bair ftw I think).


On the other hand, I may just need to start being more defensive, or watching Hbox better, or find some more solid counters to what he's doing(all of which I haven't worked on enough at this point). Maybe my matchup inexperience is what's hurting me here. Maybe I just need more discussion/ideas or a better way of explaining this stuff so it doesn't come off wrongly and I could be received better. I'm not really sure.

I do know that I need more solid punishes and a better way of handling the neutral position/recoveries/edgeguards if I want to win. I guess if you think everything else I say is crazy, it could just start from there.

 

[unknown522]

it's such a pain in the *** that you have to never get it.

Reminds me of Hilde vs (Insert character here) in SC4. I see so many vids where Hilde players are getting *****, then they land 1 hit, 0-death. If they fail to ring out, then they still do like 50% anyway.

But yeah, PP you just need to solidify your game. You're almost there. Like, the things that you do aren't wrong, you just slip up sometimes (like anyone else).

Also, IMO you need to grab him more when he's shielding. If you catch survival DI on a back throw, you can combo aerials. I still personally like u-throw way more, because it's always nice to have your opponent above you. Also getting a combo out of it is nice.

 

[FoxLisk]

Yeah. PP, honestly, your complaints are valid and interesting as general advice to the matchup.

However, you played 2 sets against him and came relatively close to winning overall. Like, if you had DI'd the uthrow a little bit more consistently, or at least DI'd the rests downward, or baired instead of lasering at the right times a little bit better, you could have won. I don't think it's right to come in here saying "puff beats falco" just because you're having a rough time beating hbox. He's the 2nd best in the world right now and the fact that you're coming this close is encouraging. I fully think you can beat him next time if you put your mind to it.
Speaking of which, you can totally beat Armada next time if you stay focused. The level of smash you were playing the first game of your set vs. him was above what he was playing. You didn't lose the set because he adapted, you lost that set because you started playing less perfectly. That's my opinion, anyway - I think you had that set in your hands and your nerves let it slip away. just keep playing perfectly through a whole set with him and you'll win.
p.s. i'm kinda drunk, but ive had these thoughts before and just not typed them up... i woudl think them even sober. but dont quote me on it. O.o

 

[Dr Peepee]

Hahaha alright then.

I suppose I'll reserve judgment on the Falco/Puff matchup once again and just focus on beating Hbox and everyone else like I should have in the first place. =)

 

[TheGoat]

Do it Dr PP. Beat hungrybox and beat armada, you can do it.

 

[X1-12]

PP da bess

 

[JPOBS]

i think i've encountered a problem with my laser game. i dont think i shoot enough.

i go through lapses where im not shooting many lasers and containing my opponent well. or i shoot poor/lazy lasers

i think this comes from being stuck in the "friendlies" mentality, where i dont shoot lasers at all in friendlies, so it carries over to serious matches where i feel like im not doing as well as i can be with my lasers.

i dont really know what i want you guys to say, this moreso a note-to-self

 

[Dr Peepee]

It helps to just think about when you want to lock someone in place/start an approach. Those times you're looking to do that are times when you should be lasering, more or less.

 

[MookieRah]

i think this comes from being stuck in the "friendlies" mentality, where i dont shoot lasers at all in friendlies, so it carries over to serious matches where i feel like im not doing as well as i can be with my lasers.

I know lasers are annoying and what not, but why would you not use them in friendlies? You aren't doing yourself or your opponent any good if you are playing with sub-optimal tactics. I could understand if you were shifting focus so that you were enhancing other parts of your Falco game, but I don't think this is the case.

 

[unknown522]

i think i've encountered a problem with my laser game. i dont think i shoot enough.

i go through lapses where im not shooting many lasers and containing my opponent well. or i shoot poor/lazy lasers

i think this comes from being stuck in the "friendlies" mentality, where i dont shoot lasers at all in friendlies, so it carries over to serious matches where i feel like im not doing as well as i can be with my lasers.

i dont really know what i want you guys to say, this moreso a note-to-self

I was watching your matches vs nick (the ones I could see through the webcam).

But yeah, PP you got this. It's gonna be tough though.

I was looking forward to seeing you at ROM 3, but you going to Pound 5?

 

[MikeHaggarTHAKJB]

i think i've encountered a problem with my laser game. i dont think i shoot enough.

i go through lapses where im not shooting many lasers and containing my opponent well. or i shoot poor/lazy lasers

i think this comes from being stuck in the "friendlies" mentality, where i dont shoot lasers at all in friendlies, so it carries over to serious matches where i feel like im not doing as well as i can be with my lasers.

i dont really know what i want you guys to say, this moreso a note-to-self

which is why you shouldnt listen to idiots who whine about you playing "lame" in friendlies.

 

[DJRome]

when u shine under a platform on someone's shield, and then jump wl onto that platform, u shine. what is usually the next step?

 

[mers]

when u shine under a platform on someone's shield, and then jump wl onto that platform, u shine. what is usually the next step?

Anything you would normally do after a shine on somone's shield. Early retreating aerial, late aerial, shinegrab, doubleshine, waveshine, etc.

 

[Dr Peepee]

when u shine under a platform on someone's shield, and then jump wl onto that platform, u shine. what is usually the next step?

If you hit them, combo.

If not, then standard shield pressure stuff. Shine grabbing is pretty good there.

 

[JPOBS]

I know lasers are annoying and what not, but why would you not use them in friendlies? You aren't doing yourself or your opponent any good if you are playing with sub-optimal tactics. I could understand if you were shifting focus so that you were enhancing other parts of your Falco game, but I don't think this is the case.

I dont really know why i dont use them in friendlies. I guess its cuz i play friendlies for fun and i think certain things take away the "funess" of melee, such as lasering, where when done properly can sometimes completely take the other player out of the game.

Same goes for stupid unbreakable chaingrabs like ganon vs sheik. I have no problem with marth chaingrabbing spacies (for example) because the one being chaingrabbed can do a number of things to actively try to escape successfully, and is still playing while being CG'd. but in ganon vs sheik for example, there is nothing doable t prevent it so its like 30 seconds where one person basically isnt playing anymore in friendlies

Lasers are kinda the same, i dont want to make my opponent not want to play anymore by taking them out of the game momentarily, because then i have no one to play against, and then no one is having fun lol. And over the course of matches that adds up to be like 20-30 games when the opponent just hasnt had control very much at all, theres just less fun in that.

But the problem has come up where i think it's made me lazy during serious matches so I guess i have to correct for that by playing more gay in friendlies as well.

I was watching your matches vs nick (the ones I could see through the webcam).

haha. any advice or things you noticed?

 

[Mifune]

How should I play againts a samus?..
The samus I play againts is really good at edgeguarding and Im always affraid of approaching and getting dsmashed and edgeguarded.. >__>
I always get up b OoS and nothing seems to work quite well..
Tips on how to fight her?

 

[unknown522]

haha. any advice or things you noticed?

Major things I could make out on the cam (which I was telling james on MSN at that time):
- dropping combos
- pressuring in front of his shield for too long (or messing up in front) and getting grabbed a lot
- lack of lasers
- you failed a lot of edgeguards (you let him get the ledge a lot. Usually from getting up too early). If you time the neutral getup right, you can hog him guaranteed and for him to go onstage
- You barely grab him when he's in shield. Also, try to u-throw him. You can combo if you react properly
- You also need to use tilts in general for poking/combos
- getting gimped at the edge. You don't always have to approach him

How should I play againts a samus?..
The samus I play againts is really good at edgeguarding and Im always affraid of approaching and getting dsmashed and edgeguarded.. >__>
I always get up b OoS and nothing seems to work quite well..
Tips on how to fight her?

lol, is the samus that you play with named Greg?

Also, if you don't want to approach him at the edge, then laser him

 

[JPOBS]

Major things I could make out on the cam (which I was telling james on MSN at that time):
- dropping combos
- pressuring in front of his shield for too long (or messing up in front) and getting grabbed a lot
- lack of lasers
- you failed a lot of edgeguards (you let him get the ledge a lot. Usually from getting up too early). If you time the neutral getup right, you can hog him guaranteed and for him to go onstage
- You barely grab him when he's in shield. Also, try to u-throw him. You can combo if you react properly
- You also need to use tilts in general for poking/combos
- getting gimped at the edge. You don't always have to approach him

thank you i appreciate it.

 

[SnowMan]

Dr. PeePee, what do you recommend as a good shield pressure string?

 

[Dr Peepee]

Well, that's kinda vague.

I guess I like Nair shine to retreating Nair, with a mixup of Nair shine grab.

The more you change things the better you are though(usually) lol.

 

[Druggedfox]

Do 10 multishines in a row.

=D?

 

[Dr Peepee]

Nah that's gay.

 

[Druggedfox]

Nah that's gay.

Which falco player is TRAPPED IN THE CLOSET again?

I can't seem to remember.

How's analyzing those GFs going?

 

[Dr Peepee]

oh shoot he got me

Uhhh, not so well.

I've been

very distracted.

Next week/tomorrow I'm getting on it.

Sorry lol, I know I need to get on this.

 

[PB&J]

critique my falco

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YoiCjxFstRE

and

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jO0m1mOn0yc

 

[SnowMan]

Do 10 multishines in a row.

=D?

YeahIwish.

Well, that's kinda vague.

I guess I like Nair shine to retreating Nair, with a mixup of Nair shine grab.

The more you change things the better you are though(usually) lol.

That's what I would normally do, but I do a late nair. I still seemed to get ****ed over though, late nair or not. Probably doing it too slow or whatever. Meh.

Sometimes I'll do a jab > shine > jab then retreating nair, or grab through my shine. It was working on my friend the other night, but I'm not entirely sure it's practical.

 

[Druggedfox]

Haa I was just kidding snowman =P

In all seriousness though:

PP, what do you think of the concept of double shining?

Both my falco and fox implement it frequently, especially as of late. A lot of people say it's unnecessary, but the more I use it, the more I feel like I cover so many more options that way.

It's not just flashy, it throws off my opponent's timing, affects them psychologically, and limits the options I have to cover. Despite that, I hardly see any falco (or fox) players actually abusing it. It's certainly not that hard to learn to do...

Also, double shining helps with shield poking a LOT, becuase it eats their shield so quickly. The more I experiment, the more I think this will be useful especially against characters' whose shields you can't easily pressure (ganondorf, because of the size of shield, for example). When pressuring a character like ganon, you can't actually do a standard string, your options come down to:

-Retreating aerial
-Shine Grab
-Amazing spacing on the short hop that allows you to dodge shield grab but still pressure (I do this against fox and falco players, a great example is mango vs rockcrock friendlies).

Honestly, any attempt at delayed aerials is way too risky unless you're in an extremely advantageous position. That said... I can't understand why falco players aren't implementing it.

 

[PB&J]

double shine's ****

 

[Dr Peepee]

Double shining is an excellent shield pressure mixup. Some people like to OOS stuff Falco after he shines because he likes to delay the next aerial so there's lots of time for them to hit him. Double shining stuffs those counters and scares them a lot more. Plus, you get the same shield pressure mixups out of it as you would normal shining, and yeah it also eats shields more like you said.

I don't do it because I like playing more simply and that means I can trust myself to not screw up as much. It's definitely a good idea to use it though if you're confident in your abilities.

 

[Druggedfox]

Falco's double shine against shield realllllly isn't hard, have more confidence =D

But yeah, I realize how your style works, fair enough. It's just been such a strange idea that even the more technical falco players don't abuse it much (even Shiz only occasionally does it 1-2 times a match...).

Oh well, I guess I'll keep at it, since no one else wants to try it

 

[Winston]

I try it but I end up trying to do it too fast so I do like shine -> nothing like an idiot

I thought Axe does it a lot?

 

[Druggedfox]

Yeah, I maintain that falco's is harder than fox's, because falco's requires timing. Fox's is just do it fast.

Axe doesn't stay grounded usually, most of the time he just wavelands out of the second shine. I almost never see him ACTUALLY do a grounded double shine, though I could be watching the wrong things.

 

[unknown522]

it's great especially if the opponent is in shield near the edge.

If they're not a space animal, they are gonna try to grab you 90% of the time (lol m2k).

there are some character exceptions like pikachu, who will probably try to tail-spike you.