PPMD's Falco Discussion Thread

[eideeiit]

I think you can hold to the notch/bit lower before the shield and it'll still work.

 

[AnonymousID]

What are some basic matchup stuff when fighting link/younglink

 

[EZPZ]

Try to smother them. They are terrible at close range.

 

[FE_Hector]

What are some basic matchup stuff when fighting link/younglink

I'm not sure about the exact properties of each of their shields, but remember that sometimes it looks like a laser will connect, but the physical shield on their arm will actually stop it. Not sure about any kin of hitstun or anything on that. You don't see Link/YL being used much.

 

[Klemes]

What are some basic matchup stuff when fighting link/younglink

out-tier them. hard.
JK I have to admit I don't know jack about them. I guess YL can be a threat, since that falco shish-kebab from Armada on hungrybox's (kinda super bad) pocket falco. It was at evo2013 if my memory can be trusted.

 

[X WaNtEd X]

Link and yl love to fall with Nair, kind of like Luigi. So bait that **** out. Utilt would be optimal, but bair is p easy to punish with as well.

Also remember that they do not have many safe options on your shield. So sometimes it's good to just run up, shield their **** and punish with a dair, bair, Nair, laser, or shine oos depending on spacing.

 

[X WaNtEd X]

Does anyone have a good video/explanation on how to do running shield drops?

I am very consistent with running shield drops. Here's what I do:

1. Dash
2. Roll control stick from the horizontal position downward as you hit a shoulder button in one smooth motion

Don't try to hold down the shoulder button. I literally just tap it. You should see the shield start to come out right before you drop through. The full color of the shield shouldn't appear; it'll look white.

 

[LozNerd]

Hi, edge-guarding question here. At low percents would edge-guarding Fox with shine -> double jump -> dair onto stage be viable? (You get back onto stage not Fox)

 

[FE_Hector]

Hi, edge-guarding question here. At low percents would edge-guarding Fox with shine -> double jump -> dair onto stage be viable? (You get back onto stage not Fox)

I wouldn't bet on it. Just flat out bairing or dairing him for the KO is way safer. Too many unknowns with the situation you described, especially because he can throw out moves including shine, nair, upB, and sideB at like any possible moment. Just really risky.

 

[(Buddha)]

How does one Waveshine?

 

[Klemes]

How does one Waveshine?

Shine > Wavedash. That's >>.

Are you new to melee ? I'm just surprised someone could have 3500 posts on SB and not know how to waveshine lol.

 

[SpiderMad]

Is Falco SUPPOSE to be able to punish Peach's D-smash on shield with WD OOS Shine? Or is that just Fox with his shorter jumpsquat? I'm being trying it in 20XX with the repeated action code and I only get it to clank with her 2nd D-smash.

Furthermore, even if he can. Wouldn't going for something like SH Dair be better anyways?

 

[C-SAF]

I'm just surprised someone could have 3500 posts on SB and not know how to waveshine lol.

Brawl/smash4 maybe?

Is Falco SUPPOSE to be able to punish Peach's D-smash on shield with WD OOS Shine? Or is that just Fox with his shorter jumpsquat? I'm being trying it in 20XX with the repeated action code and I only get it to clank with her 2nd D-smash.

Furthermore, even if he can. Wouldn't going for something like SH Dair be better anyways?

I don't go for wd --> shine just for that reason. Falco's shine is so much smaller that even though it can probably be done it is hard to be consistent. If u miss time it then u get dsmashed again and u probably are holding down for the shine. At high percents its hard to get a follow up too.

SH Dair can work good, unlike drill it cant be SDI'd to the same extent, but can be cc'd at low percents. My go to is usually grab though. Up throwing peach and forcing her to fight for stage again is actually a pretty good punish in its self, or just forward/back thow to the corner. Falco is just so amazing at corner pressure its worth it.

Now that im thinking about it though, I cant remember seeing a falco wd--> dtilt oos to punish it. I wonder if that's a thing? At high percents it would basically net u a kill if peach does a bad dsmash. Will have to test this.

 

[(Buddha)]

Shine > Wavedash. That's >>.

Are you new to melee ? I'm just surprised someone could have 3500 posts on SB and not know how to waveshine lol.

Brawl/smash4 maybe?



I don't go for wd --> shine just for that reason. Falco's shine is so much smaller that even though it can probably be done it is hard to be consistent. If u miss time it then u get dsmashed again and u probably are holding down for the shine. At high percents its hard to get a follow up too.

SH Dair can work good, unlike drill it cant be SDI'd to the same extent, but can be cc'd at low percents. My go to is usually grab though. Up throwing peach and forcing her to fight for stage again is actually a pretty good punish in its self, or just forward/back thow to the corner. Falco is just so amazing at corner pressure its worth it.

Now that im thinking about it though, I cant remember seeing a falco wd--> dtilt oos to punish it. I wonder if that's a thing? At high percents it would basically net u a kill if peach does a bad dsmash. Will have to test this.

I want to pick up Melee. The only other game I have played is Smash 4.

 

[SpiderMad]

Now that im thinking about it though, I cant remember seeing a falco wd--> dtilt oos to punish it. I wonder if that's a thing? At high percents it would basically net u a kill if peach does a bad dsmash. Will have to test this.

I already mentioned WD OOS Shine punish is either frame perfect or not possible for Falco, d-tilts not gonna work in time...

 

[X WaNtEd X]

Hi, edge-guarding question here. At low percents would edge-guarding Fox with shine -> double jump -> dair onto stage be viable? (You get back onto stage not Fox)

Adding on to Hector said, make sure you cover the ledge with your bair or dair when edgeguarding Fox. Too many people ledgehop bair/dair but go too high and give up edgeguards that way. Falco is fast enough to whiff a bair/dair low and still be able to hit Fox if he goes high. So make sure you double jump rising bair/dair from the ledge really late so your hitbox covers the low recovery options. And then from there if Fox went high onto stage, you can either just hit Fox offstage again if he's at high percent or shine him and combo him offstage/into death when he's low to mid percent.

 

[FE_Hector]

So, one thing that I've been doing recently is trying to utilt Fox's out of their upB. It seems pretty reliable after a bit of practice and I don't really trade that often. The idea is that I don't risk their getting a wall tech or my just barely missing with a dair and losing another followup chance. I haven't looked at the frame data for any of it though. What are your thoughts?

 

[stabbedbyanipple]

So, one thing that I've been doing recently is trying to utilt Fox's out of their upB. It seems pretty reliable after a bit of practice and I don't really trade that often. The idea is that I don't risk their getting a wall tech or my just barely missing with a dair and losing another followup chance. I haven't looked at the frame data for any of it though. What are your thoughts?

I've been thinking about this situation in my head for like the past 40 minutes because of how many different angles and distances fox could recover from LOL

I've come to the conclusion that in some situations it seems pretty lenient and requires far less finesse than the optimal edgeguard, but I just don't think it's ever the "best" option and you should avoid making it your go to.

 

[Bones0]

At high percents it's definitely out of the question because they'll be DIing on-stage and go too far to directly followup. This happens when I utilt side-Bs and it is really annoying. As long as you can get the followup and they aren't angling downward (which I'm sure would avoid even utilts done right on the ledge), it seems solid. I'll try it out today and post my impressions.

 

[FE_Hector]

Alright. Part of it was actually my just messing around against CPUs after working on certain tech for a while, but I just wanted others impressions of it.

 

[Klemes]

I'm pretty sure u-tilt won't cover any kind of sweet-spot on the ledge. d-smash does. angled f-tilt does : less kill power but harder to wall-tech (does somebody knows if you always need to SDI to tech ?)
Also, what do you guys think of shuffle b-air right on the edge ? I see the swedish foxes do it a lot vs spacies. I know falco's would be a bit inferior because blah blah longer jumpsquat, but still ? How would it compare to other options when you're onstage for an edgeguard ?

 

[FE_Hector]

I've messed around with bair right at the edge for a stylish edgeguard (was being silly vs my friend) and it actually seemed pretty good. I don't know if you always have to SDI to tech, but at the least I'd recommend ASDI. Not much to lose if unnecessary.

 

[OninO]

Whether you need to SDI to tech depends on the trajectory of the launcher. If it's pushing you away from the wall, yes, you always need to SDI. If you're getting knocked into the wall, then no.

 

[Bones0]

I'm pretty sure u-tilt won't cover any kind of sweet-spot on the ledge. d-smash does. angled f-tilt does : less kill power but harder to wall-tech (does somebody knows if you always need to SDI to tech ?)
Also, what do you guys think of shuffle b-air right on the edge ? I see the swedish foxes do it a lot vs spacies. I know falco's would be a bit inferior because blah blah longer jumpsquat, but still ? How would it compare to other options when you're onstage for an edgeguard ?

Ftilt is easier to wall tech. Whether a move is easily techable depends on KB and trajectory. More KB means you will be further from the wall in the frames immediately after being hit than with less KB. That's why it's so much harder to tech at 200% than at 50%. The trajectory you are sent affects it similarly. Dsmash sends opponents directly away from the wall whereas attacks that send at an upwards angle will not send you as far in the same amount of time. The distance between you and the wall is the only determinant in whether or not you have to SDI to be close enough.

Bairing the ledge doesn't hit sweetspots, but it's a good compromise for trying to hit bad downward up-B angles or bad upward angles because you can punish higher angles on reaction if it whiffs.

 

[Klemes]

Thanks for clearing that out. Also, I've watched quite a few sets of you now, and I'm very impressed. Keep going you're awsome !

 

[X WaNtEd X]

Is Falco SUPPOSE to be able to punish Peach's D-smash on shield with WD OOS Shine? Or is that just Fox with his shorter jumpsquat? I'm being trying it in 20XX with the repeated action code and I only get it to clank with her 2nd D-smash.

Furthermore, even if he can. Wouldn't going for something like SH Dair be better anyways?

If you shield DI away and get out of dsmash range fast enough, I think you can punish with all sorts of things, including SH dair. You could probably even let down shield and then dtilt to kill if she's high enough percent.

If Kage could punish dsmash on shield with shield DI away let down shield dsmash with Ganon, Falco should be able to punish as well. In this case, it was powershield to shield DI away. Not sure how much of a difference that made or if it would matter with Falco.

 

[SpiderMad]

Oh yeah Shield DI/SDI to avoid the last hit(s), thanks.

Also on another note with BF's lower platforms you can possibly do an option select with Shine DJ WL and Insta-land shine JC Grab. Has anyone ever mentioned this?

If you did it right to get the insta-land shine, you have Jump (I use control stick) and then Grab input soon after. Before the grab though you input AD as well, and it won't do anything if you get the insta-land as you can't shield during the Shine/Jumpsquat-animation.

 

[Bones0]

FYI: Falco's WD OoS and shield release animations are both 15 frames so usually WDing OoS is better. It can be a bit harder obviously, but the advantage of moving how you want after shield stun ends is a critical one. I know Falco can punish both Sheik's and Peach's dsmash with a wavedash OoS into shine, but only if you shield 2 hits facing towards you. You can punish Sheik if she gets 3 hits, but you have to be frame perfect (even if you're slow and she's able to shield/dodge, you will at least get to reverse the pressure). She usually only gets 3 hits if you shield DI towards her anyway.

Oh yeah Shield DI/SDI to avoid the last hit(s), thanks.

Also on another note with BF's lower platforms you can possibly do an option select with Shine DJ WL and Insta-land shine JC Grab. Has anyone ever mentioned this?

If you did it right to get the insta-land shine, you have Jump (I use control stick) and then Grab input soon after. Before the grab though you input AD as well, and it won't do anything if you get the insta-land as you can't shield during the Shine/Jumpsquat-animation.

Are you talking about doing a Bones land (as my region likes to call it, hehe)? No need to OS, just practice the timing. Get ready for an adventure...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0C99LDAnTE0#t=3m20s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ql8MAGKbapg#t=13m5s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xuhBFkCXa5w#t=2m17s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ys6Zlb9WSVk#t=5m20s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ys6Zlb9WSVk#t=2m25s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4BzNHwj0S1s#t=2m32s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4BzNHwj0S1s#t=18s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iKBPErEzjVM#t=9m56s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZReuauD5pD8#t=12s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4dZRfeN8-Wg#t=44s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e8vP1FMqdRw#t=8m10s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Z2yYa0yt3s#t=4m47s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RK7VlRGXoSs#t=3m35s (The Moon calls this one unsafe because he didn't even realize what I did lol)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ibu2DVvpA8o#t=3m18s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HWYnjxpz4Uc#t=8m55s

 

[SpiderMad]

lol the Moon

https://youtu.be/e8vP1FMqdRw?t=554 Did Zhu push you off?

https://youtu.be/e8vP1FMqdRw?t=416 Was this a C-stick down, Control stick down and away Amsah tech? I tried practicing this in 20XX and I wasn't getting it much.

Why would you take Zhu's Fox to FoD/DL?

I notice you never use the Westballz Double shine?

Seems you've gotten a lot faster/better since the last time I watched you

How often are you wearing headphones for your games? Do you prefer IEMs or Headphones? What do you listen to?

Is your controller modded at all? or were you one of those people against modding

How loose is your control stick?

Also does anyone have a link to the exact frame data of how a dash shield drop works/inputs?

 

[Klemes]

The Moon lol. What's up with him and falco's stuff not being safe anyway ?
Also, can you explain why the bones land actually makes you land, and with no lag at that ?
Do you need to JC grab after the shine, cause it doesnt look like it. Your Inputs for this would be nice !
Do you need to shine at a frame perfect timing/platform height ?

 

[Pr0fessor Flash]

The Moon lol. What's up with him and falco's stuff not being safe anyway ?
Also, can you explain why the bones land actually makes you land, and with no lag at that ?
Do you need to JC grab after the shine, cause it doesnt look like it. Your Inputs for this would be nice !
Do you need to shine at a frame perfect timing/platform height ?

It's really called a Shine Land but anyways it's kinda a Shine stall to platform and JC Grab, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M4_W5hVGVoE http://smashboards.com/threads/falco-fox-technique-shine-landing.261264/ This should provide a bit more info about it though.

 

[Bones0]

lol the Moon

https://youtu.be/e8vP1FMqdRw?t=554 Did Zhu push you off?

https://youtu.be/e8vP1FMqdRw?t=416 Was this a C-stick down, Control stick down and away Amsah tech? I tried practicing this in 20XX and I wasn't getting it much.

Why would you take Zhu's Fox to FoD/DL?

I notice you never use the Westballz Double shine?

Seems you've gotten a lot faster/better since the last time I watched you

How often are you wearing headphones for your games? Do you prefer IEMs or Headphones? What do you listen to?

Is your controller modded at all? or were you one of those people against modding

How loose is your control stick?

Also does anyone have a link to the exact frame data of how a dash shield drop works/inputs?

Do you mean did I push Zhu off? (I was red Falco.) It's hard to tell because of the magnifying glass, but I think he accidentally dashed too far towards the ledge and when he tried to pivot dair, he slid off during jumpsquat and daired in the air.

The best way to ground tech is to do the lowest trajectory DI possible and then SDI/ASDI straight down. So in that instance, I DIed down-right on the control stick and straight down on the C-stick.

Most Foxes just don't move and punish well on FoD in my experience. I picked DL because it seemed like he wasn't dealing well with laser spam from under side plats, and I think that part of my game actually worked pretty well, I just dropped a lot of free stuff and got hit by a lot of unnecessary things.

Westballz shine has a lot of flaws, and is strictly worse than a normal double shine.
- WLing down in front of an opponent is easily punishable with grab or many other OoS options.
- You cannot properly followup a lot of the time because the opponents go higher than your DJ, whereas if you were doing another grounded shine you could WD out and FH+DJ.
- Once the opponent sees you shine in the air, they can roll away and you can't directly punish. If you do a doubleshine, you can rising fadeaway aerial to hit dodges.
- You give up the option to convert your shines into a grab if you do the second one in the air.
- The pressure string isn't even faster unless you're close to frame perfect iirc. The whole benefit to the Westballz pressure is that it's more consistent than a frame perfect doubleshine, but if you don't shine on the second airborne frame and airdodge on the first frame after DJing, the window between the airborne shine and a third shine after WLing starts to become dangerously large. Westballz makes this pressure work because people are so afraid of getting hit by him in general that they don't want to risk getting hit.

Thanks.

I don't like wearing headphones when playing because the game sounds are really helpful. Unfortunately, I am easily distracted by people standing in my peripheral vision, let alone by people commentating or holding conversations. I have started using my in-ear headphones just as a means of ear plugs, but when that isn't enough, I listen to a pretty wide variety of music. Usually up-beat stuff, but it can range from rap (Eminem in particular) to electronic stuff. Recently, I've been listening to some of the OC Remix tracks from the "Adventure" TAS video. They hold a lot of nostalgic meaning to me as well because I grew up watching combo videos ("Bombs Over Baghdad" is another favorite because of Soldier of Fortune).

I am against modding, but I removed the spring from my right trigger to make teching, WLing, and shield stopping easier. I use the left, springed trigger for L-canceling, WDing, and light shielding.

Very tight (though there is some give within the deadzone). I can't play with loose sticks at all. I basically can't laser or dash properly on a lot of controllers.

Dash Shield Drops (aka Shai Drops):
http://smashboards.com/threads/shai-drop-update-detailed-guide-frame-data.322062/

The Moon lol. What's up with him and falco's stuff not being safe anyway ?
Also, can you explain why the bones land actually makes you land, and with no lag at that ?
Do you need to JC grab after the shine, cause it doesnt look like it. Your Inputs for this would be nice !
Do you need to shine at a frame perfect timing/platform height ?

Airborne shine has a very short, very quick burst of downward movement. This is why multishining is possible. On the first airborne frame you shine, and then you will land a few frames after at which point you can JC the shine from the ground. The Bones land is the same thing, but you space your shine slightly above the plat instead of slightly above the ground you jumped from. The shine makes you snap to the ground sooner than if you had WLed, which opens up a host of cool options such as shine grab, double shine, regular shine aerial pressure, full hop, or anything else that can be done during/after jumping.

 

[V_x_I_D]

Okay guys, I got two questions:

What are different ways to approach with Falco?
I feel like I rely on Lasers TOO much to get into someone's space. I've also thought about picking up Fox to get better at approaching since his lasers don't have hitstun.

Any tips?

Second question:

How do I get better at hitting people with shines? I also hit with shines after an Lcanceled Aerial, but I have a friend who will hit shines in the air and cancel them to bair or even a dair. How do I get better at that?

 

[Bones0]

Okay guys, I got two questions:

What are different ways to approach with Falco?
I feel like I rely on Lasers TOO much to get into someone's space. I've also thought about picking up Fox to get better at approaching since his lasers don't have hitstun.

Any tips?

Second question:

How do I get better at hitting people with shines? I also hit with shines after an Lcanceled Aerial, but I have a friend who will hit shines in the air and cancel them to bair or even a dair. How do I get better at that?

Playing Fox won't help you learn how to approach as Falco. He's way faster and doesn't play very similarly. Try working on your DD/WD spacing game. If you are just outside of someone's space, you want to bait them into committing to something unsafe before going in with a SHFFL. Once you get better at that aspect, you add lasers back into the mix to force them to attack out of desperation or shield out of fear of you jumping in on them.

I think the easiest way to shine-bair/shine-dair is to hit down+B, then immediately move the stick from down to up to tap jump, and then this frees up your thumb to hit the C-stick for the aerial instead of having to press X/Y.

 

[V_x_I_D]

Playing Fox won't help you learn how to approach as Falco. He's way faster and doesn't play very similarly. Try working on your DD/WD spacing game. If you are just outside of someone's space, you want to bait them into committing to something unsafe before going in with a SHFFL. Once you get better at that aspect, you add lasers back into the mix to force them to attack out of desperation or shield out of fear of you jumping in on them.

I think the easiest way to shine-bair/shine-dair is to hit down+B, then immediately move the stick from down to up to tap jump, and then this frees up your thumb to hit the C-stick for the aerial instead of having to press X/Y.

Thanks, I appreciate the tips!

 

[LozNerd]

Hey, I am working on my shffl shield pressure and I need to make sure I'm getting my l-cancels down. The thing is, I don't know if I am hitting them or not. I was playing PM when I saw you flash white when you hit an l-cancel. Should I practice timing on there and then transition it or is it different?

 

[FE_Hector]

Either use 20XX/20XXTEs flash red for missed, flash white for hit (l-cancel) function, or just learn to feel it out on your own. If you're trying to be optimal, you'll notice a difference between getting and missing the L-Cancel.

 

[pipN]

With vanilla Melee, try practicing L-cancels on a stationary Bowser on FD. Turn handicap on, change the damage ratio to 0.5, then set your handicap to 1. Then practicing dairing and nairing on him. If you can get a shine out as soon as you land, then you're L-canceling successfully.

 

[Klemes]

Hi everyone. I just wanted to wish you a merry christmas. I asked santa to offer me skill this year, but I'm not sure it worked tbh.
Anyway I think Falco definitely ain't Santa, because I have a feeling he won't be making any gifts to the rest of the cast.

Have a great holiday guys !

 

[RevySSB]

Wow multishining was easier than i thought i literally just had to watch a video and i could doubleshine in like 3 times (i know its only a doubleshine but im proud)

wow i can even tripeshine now wtf this was so easy