• Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!

    You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!

PPMD's Falco Discussion Thread

Klemes

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jul 4, 2015
Messages
236
Location
France
Actively thinking about it, in game and out, can help you improve tremendously. Keep in mind all of your options and your opponents options (Shinestalls, 1 double jump, 1 air dodge, 4 side-b lengths, and 352 firefox/bird angles).

EDIT: typo
"Keep in mind all of your options and your opponents options (Shinestalls, 1 double jump, 1 air dodge, 4 side-b lengths, and 352 firefox/bird angles" -_- good luck.

How do you guys practice edgeguarding spacies? Do yo break it down into a flow chart? In the past, I've just sort of felt it out, and did whatever felt right, but I drop SOOOOO many edgeguards. It is absurd. How can I improve that with any spacies to train with?
Like Hector said, interrupting their DJ, up-B and side-B with a barrage of lasers simply works wonder with falco, it nets you almost free edgeguards if you can get them to fall below the side-b to ledge height. Be prepared to catch their panic side-b after they get interrupted with a laser.

When you manage to get this ideal scenario,run off > DJ dair should dunk nicely. Just visualize all the angles availible to them, time your dair well, and they should die every time if they up-b below the ledge. If they do an upwards angle to drift onstage/ to ledge, they can avoid the dair, but get completely opened to an f-smash (to cover ledge) or SH bair (faster and more precise than f-smash to cover onstage). So as you see, it's pretty much a check-mate situation.

When you can't set up your edgeguard with lasers (no time), the general rule is to cover the side-b, then to react to up-b.

There are heights that spacies like to side-b at : to land on platforms, to the ledge, and onstage at ground level (even though it's terrible). bair or f-tilt / u-tilt>bair (when you're onstage) or dair (if you're jumping offstage, but it's a huge commitement) to catch their side-b. To catch the one to the ledge, d-smash, land a dair on the ledge, or better yet, run off > DJ dair so they can't tech it. It's very important that you don't let them side-b back for free : if they don't side-b, you still have time to try and catch the up-b, but if they do, you can get a brutal kill and kind of get in their head. That's the kind of momentum you'll carry to the next stock, guaranteed.
One thing that has to be mentioned is the side-b shorten to sweet-spot the ledge. That one is just too tricky, you need a read on it to have a hope of catching it.

Now as for the up-b. Analyse where they'll be tempted to go from their position : ledge ? past you onstage ? straight through you like a full ****** ? or really high so they can choose to drift on platforms or back to the ledge (generally the right idea, as Mango once said : go high, win tournaments). Most of the time, the best coverage is to grab ledge > ledge hop bair on stage : cut off the ledge (like the free side-b, never give a free ledge !) and lower angles, then if he went high, you can still react and bair him off the platform, or f-smash the ledge as he's falling. That won't always catch genius angles all the time, but then you should be thinking actively and adapt to their tendencies.

If one recovery options works out for them, you can be sure they'll do it again soon, so that's when you can punish it blindly. Then they'll adapt to it (hopefully), and you both step up the mind-game progressively.

When they come from very high, you can try and intercept them with FH > shine-turnaround > DJ > bair, to hit high and far off stage.

One last thing, the guaranteed stuff for when they're very far or very low, so they can only get to ledge or barely onstage, grab ledge> ledge hop dair for a free dunk.

There, hope this helps. If something is blury or unclear, do ask for a clarification !
 

GenNyan

Smash Ace
Joined
May 12, 2015
Messages
574
Location
Florida
"Keep in mind all of your options and your opponents options (Shinestalls, 1 double jump, 1 air dodge, 4 side-b lengths, and 352 firefox/bird angles" -_- good luck.
...And a partridge in a pear tree.

:troll:

There are heights that spacies like to side-b at : to land on platforms, to the ledge, and onstage at ground level (even though it's terrible). bair or f-tilt / u-tilt>bair (when you're onstage) or dair (if you're jumping offstage, but it's a huge commitement) to catch their side-b. To catch the one to the ledge, d-smash, land a dair on the ledge, or better yet, run off > DJ dair so they can't tech it. It's very important that you don't let them side-b back for free : if they don't side-b, you still have time to try and catch the up-b, but if they do, you can get a brutal kill and kind of get in their head. That's the kind of momentum you'll carry to the next stock, guaranteed.
One thing that has to be mentioned is the side-b shorten to sweet-spot the ledge. That one is just too tricky, you need a read on it to have a hope of catching it.

Now as for the up-b. Analyse where they'll be tempted to go from their position : ledge ? past you onstage ? straight through you like a full ****** ? or really high so they can choose to drift on platforms or back to the ledge (generally the right idea, as Mango once said : go high, win tournaments). Most of the time, the best coverage is to grab ledge > ledge hop bair on stage : cut off the ledge (like the free side-b, never give a free ledge !) and lower angles, then if he went high, you can still react and bair him off the platform, or f-smash the ledge as he's falling. That won't always catch genius angles all the time, but then you should be thinking actively and adapt to their tendencies.

If one recovery options works out for them, you can be sure they'll do it again soon, so that's when you can punish it blindly. Then they'll adapt to it (hopefully), and you both step up the mind-game progressively.
This is pretty important, people's habits come out swinging when they're pressured. I think being able to name different types of angles is important in remembering their last few options. I encourage people to use and be comfortable with terms like mangle/m2k angle in their head as well as the stuff you listed, because it allows you to get a lot of information in a small easily memorable phrase.
 

Klemes

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jul 4, 2015
Messages
236
Location
France
M2K angles are actually super underrated. Just thought I'd throw that out there.
Yeah, about that... A quick clarification on what exactly is the M2k angle wouldn't hurt.

And a Mangle is : go high, then drift back to dodge their hitbox. Is that about right ?
 

GenNyan

Smash Ace
Joined
May 12, 2015
Messages
574
Location
Florida
Yeah, about that... A quick clarification on what exactly is the M2k angle wouldn't hurt.

And a Mangle is : go high, then drift back to dodge their hitbox. Is that about right ?
Basically.

M2k angle is going straight to the ledge.
 

FE_Hector

Smash Lord
Joined
May 26, 2015
Messages
1,420
Location
Raleigh, NC
Yeah, about that... A quick clarification on what exactly is the M2k angle wouldn't hurt.

And a Mangle is : go high, then drift back to dodge their hitbox. Is that about right ?
What I've heard is that the M2K angle is when you ride up the side of the stage as a spacie to sweetspot the ledge.
 

TallandGangly

Smash Cadet
Joined
Apr 22, 2014
Messages
38
Location
Livingston, NJ
Thank you so much for the in-depth response. Loved hearing your thought process on it.

"

Like Hector said, interrupting their DJ, up-B and side-B with a barrage of lasers simply works wonder with falco, it nets you almost free edgeguards if you can get them to fall below the side-b to ledge height. Be prepared to catch their panic side-b after they get interrupted with a laser.

When you manage to get this ideal scenario,run off > DJ dair should dunk nicely. Just visualize all the angles availible to them, time your dair well, and they should die every time if they up-b below the ledge. If they do an upwards angle to drift onstage/ to ledge, they can avoid the dair, but get completely opened to an f-smash (to cover ledge) or SH bair (faster and more precise than f-smash to cover onstage). So as you see, it's pretty much a check-mate situation.
Would I typically have time to DJ dair, land on stage, AND hit them with a dsmash? I'll try this out next chance I get.

"
When you can't set up your edgeguard with lasers (no time), the general rule is to cover the side-b, then to react to up-b.

There are heights that spacies like to side-b at : to land on platforms, to the ledge, and onstage at ground level (even though it's terrible). bair or f-tilt / u-tilt>bair (when you're onstage) or dair (if you're jumping offstage, but it's a huge commitement) to catch their side-b. To catch the one to the ledge, d-smash, land a dair on the ledge, or better yet, run off > DJ dair so they can't tech it. It's very important that you don't let them side-b back for free : if they don't side-b, you still have time to try and catch the up-b, but if they do, you can get a brutal kill and kind of get in their head. That's the kind of momentum you'll carry to the next stock, guaranteed.
One thing that has to be mentioned is the side-b shorten to sweet-spot the ledge. That one is just too tricky, you need a read on it to have a hope of catching it.

Now as for the up-b. Analyse where they'll be tempted to go from their position : ledge ? past you onstage ? straight through you like a full ****** ? or really high so they can choose to drift on platforms or back to the ledge (generally the right idea, as Mango once said : go high, win tournaments). Most of the time, the best coverage is to grab ledge > ledge hop bair on stage : cut off the ledge (like the free side-b, never give a free ledge !) and lower angles, then if he went high, you can still react and bair him off the platform, or f-smash the ledge as he's falling. That won't always catch genius angles all the time, but then you should be thinking actively and adapt to their tendencies.

If one recovery options works out for them, you can be sure they'll do it again soon, so that's when you can punish it blindly. Then they'll adapt to it (hopefully), and you both step up the mind-game progressively.

I know you already bolded them, but those two things stood out alot to me. I'll keep those in mind. So if I can't set up with lasers, just grab ledge and anticipate the side-b.
 
Last edited:

FE_Hector

Smash Lord
Joined
May 26, 2015
Messages
1,420
Location
Raleigh, NC
I know you already bolded them, but those two things stood out alot to me. I'll keep those in mind. So if I can't set up with lasers, just grab ledge and anticipate the side-b.
The idea here is actually more that it's nearly impossible to react to sideB, so you should cover it preemptively to remove the option from them. On the other hand, you've easily got half a second+ after initialization of upB before they start moving, and they don't move nearly as quickly as they do with their sideBs.

tl;dr: Humans can't react to sideB, so it cover it first. Humans CAN react to upB, so please do.
 

RevySSB

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jul 20, 2015
Messages
64
Yeah, about that... A quick clarification on what exactly is the M2k angle wouldn't hurt.

And a Mangle is : go high, then drift back to dodge their hitbox. Is that about right ?
then i have been doing a mango since i started
 

RevySSB

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jul 20, 2015
Messages
64
I feel like i'm not improving anymore. It actually feels that i'm becoming worse. I just don't know what i should improve on
 

X WaNtEd X

Smash Lord
Joined
Mar 24, 2009
Messages
1,647
Location
Lowell, MA
You can react to side-b depending on how far away it is. There's a split second where fox/falco freeze in place before they start the animation. Use that as your cue. Good players do this all the time. Go watch a high level set involving a spacie and look for edgeguard situations involving side-b. Often the player edgeguarding will not actually input an attack until side-b has started. Some of these situations are probably reads that happened to look like reactions. But from my own experiences against falco, I know it's definitely possible.
 

FE_Hector

Smash Lord
Joined
May 26, 2015
Messages
1,420
Location
Raleigh, NC
I feel like i'm not improving anymore. It actually feels that i'm becoming worse. I just don't know what i should improve on
There is ALWAYS something you can improve on. Can you consistently SHFFL nair shinegrab on shield in practice? What about in an actual match? If you can do that, can you consciously mix it up to dubshine instead? Maybe add in a low dair to throw them off instead of a medium-low nair. Can you always shoot the exact height of laser that you wanted when you're playing in a match? Are your wavelands 100% consistent and are they being used properly? How's your combo sense? Do you know why you're losing exchanges in the neutral? There are probably a million other questions I could ask, but I think that these are some pretty good ones to make people realize exactly how much room for improvement they still have.
 

GenNyan

Smash Ace
Joined
May 12, 2015
Messages
574
Location
Florida
I feel like i'm not improving anymore. It actually feels that i'm becoming worse.
Kinda the same right now, don't think I'm getting worse though. But for me, the problem could easily be solved if I got a car. Its been 2 months since I played against a human and I don't have any motivation to grind tech right now.

I recorded 8 matches on 20xxTE last time I played. 6 of them are completely useless due to desyncs and I have studied the other 2 frame by frame, but theorycrafting is useless if I can't test anything.

I guess I just feel like complaining today, haha. Anyway you should definitely try to refine tech as best you can. If you need ideas, consistent ledge dashes and ledge stalls are cool.
 

FE_Hector

Smash Lord
Joined
May 26, 2015
Messages
1,420
Location
Raleigh, NC
GenNyan GenNyan Does Charlotte have no locals? I'm kinda far away, so I haven't paid too much attention to their scene, but I thought they at least had SOMETHING. Is the issue the lack of transportation, or a lack of tourneys?
 

RevySSB

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jul 20, 2015
Messages
64
There is ALWAYS something you can improve on. Can you consistently SHFFL nair shinegrab on shield in practice? What about in an actual match? If you can do that, can you consciously mix it up to dubshine instead? Maybe add in a low dair to throw them off instead of a medium-low nair. Can you always shoot the exact height of laser that you wanted when you're playing in a match? Are your wavelands 100% consistent and are they being used properly? How's your combo sense? Do you know why you're losing exchanges in the neutral? There are probably a million other questions I could ask, but I think that these are some pretty good ones to make people realize exactly how much room for improvement they still have.
I think i lose Neutral because i'm Hyper Aggresive, but i have always been like that and theres really nothing i can change except to think about not trying to go in ALL the time. I haven't really thought about Nair shinegrab because i think dair shinegrab is better but (nair is prob better idk) Sometimes it just feels like i'm super slow. And that my opponent is the only one comboing me and i'm just trying to get away, i just get into that slump and then it's no fun in playing and i just get super negative.
 

FE_Hector

Smash Lord
Joined
May 26, 2015
Messages
1,420
Location
Raleigh, NC
If your opponent is comboing you constantly, try to make as much use of the angel platform invincibility as you can to take back stage positioning. Try to establish your stage presence and don't just mindlessly shoot lasers. I've gotta start trying to play less aggressively, too, to be honest. It's a matter of mental discipline that I really have to get a handle of. Focus on not going on. Focus on retreating AC bairs. Focus on walling your opponent out with those bairs and spaced utilts. Focus on incorporating mixups. Don't just randomly go in and try to mindlessly combo them like they're a CPU. These are humans you're dealing with. Just be careful and be sure that you're not putting yourself into bad situations from the start.
 

OninO

Smash Journeyman
Joined
May 19, 2014
Messages
289
RevySSB RevySSB why don't you put up a video in the Vid discussion thread and maybe someone can give you some advice.
 

GenNyan

Smash Ace
Joined
May 12, 2015
Messages
574
Location
Florida
GenNyan GenNyan Does Charlotte have no locals? I'm kinda far away, so I haven't paid too much attention to their scene, but I thought they at least had SOMETHING. Is the issue the lack of transportation, or a lack of tourneys?
Nah, there's plenty of locals in downtown Charlotte, but I live on the outskirts and its an hour long drive. I won't get my driver's license for maybe a month or two, so its mainly transportation.

I don't think there are any tournaments just outside of Charlotte, but the NC Melee FB group doesn't work for me, so I have no real way of knowing about tourneys that aren't listed on the Charlotte or PM pages.
 
Last edited:

FE_Hector

Smash Lord
Joined
May 26, 2015
Messages
1,420
Location
Raleigh, NC
Gotcha. That seriously sucks, but I understand the situation... except that Raleigh just like... doesn't have locals right now.
 

V_x_I_D

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Sep 23, 2014
Messages
85
NNID
V_x_I_D
I watched this video https://youtu.be/uXvKpe5MP0s and I play both melee and sm4sh, my question is: How do I get better st observing my opponent''s reactions in order to read them decently?
How do I even get better st observing the things I do myself in order to keep things mixed up?
I know this is a very fundamental thing about the mental game, but it seems like I completely missed it while learning to play the game. Now if I try to observe my opponent it becomes difficult to play the game because I'm just so focused on what my opponent is doing that I'm missing basic tech or (in the case of sm4sh) I'm messing up basic combo strings and even approaching wrong.

In melee it's even harder because it's much faster where I find that this concept is way easier in sm4sh.

Is this something that will happen as I learn to git gud? Am I going to get bodied a lot more as I learn to adapt to my opponent instead of rushing in blindly to attack? I feel like I'm going to have to regress before i progress.
Should I switch characters to someone that is more read based in order to get better?
You guys give great advice, sorry for such a huge mental topic.
 

FE_Hector

Smash Lord
Joined
May 26, 2015
Messages
1,420
Location
Raleigh, NC
I watched this video https://youtu.be/uXvKpe5MP0s and I play both melee and sm4sh, my question is: How do I get better st observing my opponent''s reactions in order to read them decently?
How do I even get better st observing the things I do myself in order to keep things mixed up?
I know this is a very fundamental thing about the mental game, but it seems like I completely missed it while learning to play the game. Now if I try to observe my opponent it becomes difficult to play the game because I'm just so focused on what my opponent is doing that I'm missing basic tech or (in the case of sm4sh) I'm messing up basic combo strings and even approaching wrong.

In melee it's even harder because it's much faster where I find that this concept is way easier in sm4sh.

Is this something that will happen as I learn to git gud? Am I going to get bodied a lot more as I learn to adapt to my opponent instead of rushing in blindly to attack? I feel like I'm going to have to regress before i progress.
Should I switch characters to someone that is more read based in order to get better?
You guys give great advice, sorry for such a huge mental topic.
A lot of what you're asking comes down to mental discipline. You need to be able to execute the tech you want at a really high level of consistency so that you can devote more mental energy to figuring your opponent out. I might see that somebody missed a tech on a platform, but if I just try to continue my combo like they'd gotten the tech, they might punish me. As far as playing less aggressively, you have to put in the mental work to stop. I've got a fest I'll be at on Friday where I'll be largely focusing on playing more patiently and using a lot more AC bairs and spaced utilts to wall out my opponent.

As far as mixups go, try to see if you can determine why your opponent is reading your techs (if they are). There was a point where I was always teching left against this one Falcon, so since then I've been consciously mixing up my tech options. Since then, I've been trying to pay attention to my own habits more, and I recently noticed a lot of teching in on platforms on my part, so I've started trying to do that less. Since I've moved on from that, I've realized I need to tech in place a lot more and know when I'm actionable out of my tech options.

Stuff like this tends to build upon itself, so a pebble may very well start a landslide, but a combination of asking other people why they're punishing you so much and trying to figure it out on your own will start to make the latter easier eventually. Heck, as far as needing more mixups goes, I got shieldgrabbed like three times in a row earlier by my brother for trying to do the same stupid laser approach. The fourth time, I did the second laser in place before choosing to SHFFL nair in on him. I'm still working on implementation of SHFFL nair shinegrab, but it was definitely progress as far as adaptation goes.
 

pipN

Smash Rookie
Joined
Jul 26, 2015
Messages
12
I watched this video https://youtu.be/uXvKpe5MP0s and I play both melee and sm4sh, my question is: How do I get better st observing my opponent''s reactions in order to read them decently?
How do I even get better st observing the things I do myself in order to keep things mixed up?
I know this is a very fundamental thing about the mental game, but it seems like I completely missed it while learning to play the game. Now if I try to observe my opponent it becomes difficult to play the game because I'm just so focused on what my opponent is doing that I'm missing basic tech or (in the case of sm4sh) I'm messing up basic combo strings and even approaching wrong.

In melee it's even harder because it's much faster where I find that this concept is way easier in sm4sh.

Is this something that will happen as I learn to git gud? Am I going to get bodied a lot more as I learn to adapt to my opponent instead of rushing in blindly to attack? I feel like I'm going to have to regress before i progress.
Should I switch characters to someone that is more read based in order to get better?
You guys give great advice, sorry for such a huge mental topic.
I liked Kira's video, but I also found that it was a little lacking in general pointers on what you can do to improve your observation and adaptation skills. The following two posts help address this:

https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/...ything_i_can_do_to_help_myself_become/cj9q45h

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1ERZW1NsjYpXvKrQlb9WdQg7N2FUD7z3CUdtgGcEEqVE/edit (this one is from Squid's great Falco guide, found here: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1wDdb-kNgCaZ-zTBFL33rrs3bcPjRWpEnXHegYCIaO5o/edit).
 

GenNyan

Smash Ace
Joined
May 12, 2015
Messages
574
Location
Florida
I watched this video https://youtu.be/uXvKpe5MP0s and I play both melee and sm4sh, my question is: How do I get better st observing my opponent''s reactions in order to read them decently?
How do I even get better st observing the things I do myself in order to keep things mixed up?
I know this is a very fundamental thing about the mental game, but it seems like I completely missed it while learning to play the game. Now if I try to observe my opponent it becomes difficult to play the game because I'm just so focused on what my opponent is doing that I'm missing basic tech or (in the case of sm4sh) I'm messing up basic combo strings and even approaching wrong.

In melee it's even harder because it's much faster where I find that this concept is way easier in sm4sh.

Is this something that will happen as I learn to git gud? Am I going to get bodied a lot more as I learn to adapt to my opponent instead of rushing in blindly to attack? I feel like I'm going to have to regress before i progress.
Should I switch characters to someone that is more read based in order to get better?
You guys give great advice, sorry for such a huge mental topic.
My recommendation is to A.) plug in an empty controller and set up any character B.) Practice tech skill on the other side of the stage C.) Keep your eyes on the other character the entire time you do this.

This helps you become more comfortable without focusing on your character. You ideally will spend much more time looking at your opponent's character than your own in a real match, so you can react to what they're doing and observe patterns. Looking at your character can help your tech skill, but will diminish your adaptability. Keep in mind that there are times to watch yourself instead of your opponent. For example, if you shine fox, all you need to know is his DI (requiring only a glance), and then you can focus on the tech necessary to follow up.

Next time you play a friendly, focus on the direction they tech. Thats it. Don't try to observe anything else. You will gradually become really good at observing that one thing, at which point in time you can add on a new thing.

For improving your own mixups, I suggest you watch videos of yourself. These will help you pick apart your own patterns. Write these down. Circle one. Then go into some friendlies focusing on only that one, using the same tactic as above.
 
Last edited:

FE_Hector

Smash Lord
Joined
May 26, 2015
Messages
1,420
Location
Raleigh, NC
My recommendation is to A.) plug in an empty controller and set up any character B.) Practice tech skill on the other side of the stage C.) Keep your eyes on the other character the entire time you do this.
I actually think this is super solid advice. I go about doing this in a slightly different way. I spend a lot of time doing goofy (and sometimes hype) combos on random AIs, and I'll incorporate random wavelands and movement mixups in consciously while still looking at the poor Captain Falcon, Marth, or Fox that's going to get hit when I go back on the offensive. It's definitely helped improve my techskill without looking at Falco as much.
 

Klemes

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jul 4, 2015
Messages
236
Location
France
My recommendation is to A.) plug in an empty controller and set up any character B.) Practice tech skill on the other side of the stage C.) Keep your eyes on the other character the entire time you do this.

This helps you become more comfortable without focusing on your character. You ideally will spend much more time looking at your opponent's character than your own in a real match, so you can react to what they're doing and observe patterns. Looking at your character can help your tech skill, but will diminish your adaptability. Keep in mind that there are times to watch yourself instead of your opponent. For example, if you shine fox, all you need to know is his DI (requiring only a glance), and then you can focus on the tech necessary to follow up.

Next time you play a friendly, focus on the direction they tech. Thats it. Don't try to observe anything else. You will gradually become really good at observing that one thing, at which point in time you can add on a new thing.

For improving your own mixups, I suggest you watch videos of yourself. These will help you pick apart your own patterns. Write these down. Circle one. Then go into some friendlies focusing on only that one, using the same tactic as above.
Great post. The bit about learning their teching habits is soooo important. I feel like I played 1000 friendlies guessing on the spot each time they were about to tech, not using all the information I got from them during the last games. And if I hadn't started paying attention to it, I could have kept playing so blind for years... I feel like this is a good first step into "the inner game of melee" : you can apply this "watch and learn" approach to many aspects of this game, like edgeguard/recovery, neutral (like what answers do they have to laser-nair, what would beat this answer etc etc.)

I find quite a lot of falcos are kinda weak in this area of the game. My take on this is that the bird is such a strong character by design, one can actually perform pretty well while being braindead. Which is a good thing, but you'll eventually hit a wall when facing an opponent who can outsmart you hard. Plus there's so much to be gained from getting in their head, or even from standing on an equal footing sometimes.
 
Last edited:

RevySSB

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jul 20, 2015
Messages
64
Great post. The bit about learning their teching habits is soooo important. I feel like I played 1000 friendlies guessing on the spot each time they were about to tech, not using all the information I got from them during the last games. And if I hadn't started paying attention to it, I could have kept playing so blind for years... I feel like this is a good first step into "the inner game of melee" : you can apply this "watch and learn" approach to many aspects of this game, like edgeguard/recovery, neutral (like what answers do they have to laser-nair, what would beat this answer etc etc.)

I find quite a lot of falcos are kinda weak in this area of the game. My take on this is that the bird is such a strong character by design, one can actually perform pretty well while being braindead. Which is a good thing, but you'll eventually hit a wall when facing an opponent who can outsmart you hard. Plus there's so much to be gained from getting in their head, or even from standing on an equal footing sometimes.
I can Dash Wavedash back and all that kind of stuff without watching and stuff, i almost never look at my character. it just doesnt feel like it pays off when a Fox can just run in and grab
 

RevySSB

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jul 20, 2015
Messages
64
Also how the hell do you Shine OSS? I have tried crouching>shield>cstick up and then up . Doesn't really work that well though
 
Last edited:

Bones0

Smash Legend
Joined
Aug 31, 2005
Messages
11,153
Location
Jarrettsville, MD
I watched this video https://youtu.be/uXvKpe5MP0s and I play both melee and sm4sh, my question is: How do I get better st observing my opponent''s reactions in order to read them decently?
How do I even get better st observing the things I do myself in order to keep things mixed up?
I know this is a very fundamental thing about the mental game, but it seems like I completely missed it while learning to play the game. Now if I try to observe my opponent it becomes difficult to play the game because I'm just so focused on what my opponent is doing that I'm missing basic tech or (in the case of sm4sh) I'm messing up basic combo strings and even approaching wrong.

In melee it's even harder because it's much faster where I find that this concept is way easier in sm4sh.

Is this something that will happen as I learn to git gud? Am I going to get bodied a lot more as I learn to adapt to my opponent instead of rushing in blindly to attack? I feel like I'm going to have to regress before i progress.
Should I switch characters to someone that is more read based in order to get better?
You guys give great advice, sorry for such a huge mental topic.
Melee is a fast game. As a result, the mixups are going to be coming at you much faster than in Smash 4. The key to reacting properly to any given situation is to know and understand the possibilities. Once you know them intellectually, you must develop habits that allow you to punish, avoid, or otherwise deal with the situation instinctively. You don't have time to think about reads at high level.

One of the simplest examples is tech chasing. The opponent has 7 options: tech in place, tech roll left, tech roll right, get up attack, missed tech roll left, missed tech roll right, and stand. No one action will cover all of these options, so in order to punish the opponent properly, you must either react or read. The first thing you need to do is break down each option and figure out your limitations. Can you punish option X on reaction? How much harder is your potential punish if you hard read vs. react? How much riskier is it to read vs. react? Which options has the opponent been utilizing most? What can you do cover these options?

If you don't know the answers to these questions, your ability to tech chase will rely heavily on luck. You should learn to trust your intuition while playing, but you should also constantly challenge your intuition outside of the game to develop an accurate sense of what your opponent will do. Maybe you habitually hard read missed techs because the person you practice against misses them often. If you play someone who demonstrates they can land their techs, you will have to reevaluate how you're dealing with their options.

Even with just 7 options, tech chasing gets very complicated very quickly. As you can imagine, mixups in neutral are compounded with much more subtlety in each decision. Since you have to start somewhere, do your best to build a solid foundation of theory. If you find yourself getting beat by micro-adjustments within each mixup scenario, don't stress over it. These are the things that come with experience and time, and if you ever play someone who is very experienced in a matchup, you will often feel like you are losing mixup scenarios you aren't even aware of because they are already familiar with what you're doing.

One of the most common scenarios for Falco players is what to do after lasering. Should you approach with an aerial? Should you run up grab? Should you laser again or just back off entirely? The number of ways you can aerial an opponent is staggering, but breaking it down into larger chunks will help you build a foundation of understanding. So you laser their shield, and then they do something. Let's say they just continue holding shield. This is something you can, to an extent, react to. As you run up towards them after the laser, you can notice that they are still shielding and grab. They could spotdodge and that's something you can't react to, so it's usually best to be more patient at the beginning of matches/sets until you know what they are likely to do. It's usually better to miss out on a punish opportunity and maintain stage control than to go for a grab and get spotdodge dsmashed by a Peach. If the opponent simply holds shield after you shoot another laser or dashdance, that is information to use in the future. Keep in mind that the only way you can use this information is if you understand that a mixup occurred. Instead of shielding or spotdodging, the opponent can also roll in two directions, do certain attacks OoS, jump, wavedash, etc.

It is crucial that you figure out which options are most common in a matchup, for a specific player, and for specific situations. I'm sure you've all heard people complain about Falco's tech in place, spotdodge, shine. It is no doubt a pesky noob slayer, but the reason some players get hit by it seemingly every time is that they don't understand that it is a mixup. They don't realize that the timing of their attack is obvious and so they get confused and continue to get hit by spotdodge shines. If a third player came up and asked them what the Falco player does after tech in place, they probably wouldn't even be able to give an answer despite knowing they keep getting hit by spotdodge shine. This is because they don't identify the TIP as the beginning of a mixup scenario. Players get especially frustrated because if they finally bait out the spotdodge shine, they probably have no experience punishing it and don't get a lot off of it, and then the player who is very familiar with the mixup options after TIP will realize they caught on after only being punished ONCE. The next time they TIP and the opponent tries to bait the spotdodge shine, they will just attack (fsmash to be simple). So the player punishes a single spotdodge shine and the next time they get fsmashed. Again, their lack of understanding of the ENTIRE mixup will lead to frustration. They thought they figured out the mixup, but since Melee is a crazy deep game, Falco has about 45 billion options after TIP. Even just using spotdodge, the Falco could simply delay the timing of it.

If you've ever felt like someone was just reading your mind, this is probably what was going on. You had a narrow perspective on the mixup scenario which allowed the other player to easily adapt while you struggle to adapt until after you've been punished multiple times for something. This is why experience is so crucial in Melee, and the only way you can counteract this is to pay attention to when you get hit or miss a punish and dissect the scenario.

1. Identify mixup scenarios
2. Identify the opponent's available options
3. Identify what options you have to beat their option

Remember to chunk similar options together. Laser to SHFFL nair and laser to SHFFL dair have drastically different uses, outcomes, risks, rewards, etc., but you can't expect to understand these immediately. Put all of the laser to aerial options in a single category and learn how to beat them most of the time. Maybe you discover both CC shine and DD grab can beat laser to aerials some of the time. Once you figure out this general solution, repeat the process to refine your mixup:

1. Falco lasered your shield
2. Nair or dair
3. CC shine vs. nair; DD grab vs. dair

This is far from the end of the process. You can break down each option into more and more sub-options. Are they doing nair or dair? Dair. Are they doing an early dair or late dair? Late. Are they at a percent where a trade is beneficial? Yes. Are you facing towards or away from them? Away. Solution? Bair OoS to stuff their approach.

Don't take my word for it that this is how players deal with mixup scenarios. I encourage everyone to go watch a match and look for this specific situation or any others. Identify a mixup scenario and post it in this thread to see what others think of your analysis. You can start with a mixup you are very comfortable to get the hang of the steps, but you should ultimately look for mixup scenarios you never even noticed or thought about and analyze those. Maybe you overlooked an option that another player uses all the time, and they can give you an extra tool for your arsenal.
 

V_x_I_D

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Sep 23, 2014
Messages
85
NNID
V_x_I_D
Melee is a fast game. As a result, the mixups are going to be coming at you much faster than in Smash 4. The key to reacting properly to any given situation is to know and understand the possibilities. Once you know them intellectually, you must develop habits that allow you to punish, avoid, or otherwise deal with the situation instinctively. You don't have time to think about reads at high level.

One of the simplest examples is tech chasing. The opponent has 7 options: tech in place, tech roll left, tech roll right, get up attack, missed tech roll left, missed tech roll right, and stand. No one action will cover all of these options, so in order to punish the opponent properly, you must either react or read. The first thing you need to do is break down each option and figure out your limitations. Can you punish option X on reaction? How much harder is your potential punish if you hard read vs. react? How much riskier is it to read vs. react? Which options has the opponent been utilizing most? What can you do cover these options?

If you don't know the answers to these questions, your ability to tech chase will rely heavily on luck. You should learn to trust your intuition while playing, but you should also constantly challenge your intuition outside of the game to develop an accurate sense of what your opponent will do. Maybe you habitually hard read missed techs because the person you practice against misses them often. If you play someone who demonstrates they can land their techs, you will have to reevaluate how you're dealing with their options.

Even with just 7 options, tech chasing gets very complicated very quickly. As you can imagine, mixups in neutral are compounded with much more subtlety in each decision. Since you have to start somewhere, do your best to build a solid foundation of theory. If you find yourself getting beat by micro-adjustments within each mixup scenario, don't stress over it. These are the things that come with experience and time, and if you ever play someone who is very experienced in a matchup, you will often feel like you are losing mixup scenarios you aren't even aware of because they are already familiar with what you're doing.

One of the most common scenarios for Falco players is what to do after lasering. Should you approach with an aerial? Should you run up grab? Should you laser again or just back off entirely? The number of ways you can aerial an opponent is staggering, but breaking it down into larger chunks will help you build a foundation of understanding. So you laser their shield, and then they do something. Let's say they just continue holding shield. This is something you can, to an extent, react to. As you run up towards them after the laser, you can notice that they are still shielding and grab. They could spotdodge and that's something you can't react to, so it's usually best to be more patient at the beginning of matches/sets until you know what they are likely to do. It's usually better to miss out on a punish opportunity and maintain stage control than to go for a grab and get spotdodge dsmashed by a Peach. If the opponent simply holds shield after you shoot another laser or dashdance, that is information to use in the future. Keep in mind that the only way you can use this information is if you understand that a mixup occurred. Instead of shielding or spotdodging, the opponent can also roll in two directions, do certain attacks OoS, jump, wavedash, etc.

It is crucial that you figure out which options are most common in a matchup, for a specific player, and for specific situations. I'm sure you've all heard people complain about Falco's tech in place, spotdodge, shine. It is no doubt a pesky noob slayer, but the reason some players get hit by it seemingly every time is that they don't understand that it is a mixup. They don't realize that the timing of their attack is obvious and so they get confused and continue to get hit by spotdodge shines. If a third player came up and asked them what the Falco player does after tech in place, they probably wouldn't even be able to give an answer despite knowing they keep getting hit by spotdodge shine. This is because they don't identify the TIP as the beginning of a mixup scenario. Players get especially frustrated because if they finally bait out the spotdodge shine, they probably have no experience punishing it and don't get a lot off of it, and then the player who is very familiar with the mixup options after TIP will realize they caught on after only being punished ONCE. The next time they TIP and the opponent tries to bait the spotdodge shine, they will just attack (fsmash to be simple). So the player punishes a single spotdodge shine and the next time they get fsmashed. Again, their lack of understanding of the ENTIRE mixup will lead to frustration. They thought they figured out the mixup, but since Melee is a crazy deep game, Falco has about 45 billion options after TIP. Even just using spotdodge, the Falco could simply delay the timing of it.

If you've ever felt like someone was just reading your mind, this is probably what was going on. You had a narrow perspective on the mixup scenario which allowed the other player to easily adapt while you struggle to adapt until after you've been punished multiple times for something. This is why experience is so crucial in Melee, and the only way you can counteract this is to pay attention to when you get hit or miss a punish and dissect the scenario.

1. Identify mixup scenarios
2. Identify the opponent's available options
3. Identify what options you have to beat their option

Remember to chunk similar options together. Laser to SHFFL nair and laser to SHFFL dair have drastically different uses, outcomes, risks, rewards, etc., but you can't expect to understand these immediately. Put all of the laser to aerial options in a single category and learn how to beat them most of the time. Maybe you discover both CC shine and DD grab can beat laser to aerials some of the time. Once you figure out this general solution, repeat the process to refine your mixup:

1. Falco lasered your shield
2. Nair or dair
3. CC shine vs. nair; DD grab vs. dair

This is far from the end of the process. You can break down each option into more and more sub-options. Are they doing nair or dair? Dair. Are they doing an early dair or late dair? Late. Are they at a percent where a trade is beneficial? Yes. Are you facing towards or away from them? Away. Solution? Bair OoS to stuff their approach.

Don't take my word for it that this is how players deal with mixup scenarios. I encourage everyone to go watch a match and look for this specific situation or any others. Identify a mixup scenario and post it in this thread to see what others think of your analysis. You can start with a mixup you are very comfortable to get the hang of the steps, but you should ultimately look for mixup scenarios you never even noticed or thought about and analyze those. Maybe you overlooked an option that another player uses all the time, and they can give you an extra tool for your arsenal.

Wow. This, along with some of the other answers to my question, is the REASON why I come here to ask questions.
I've been taking in a lot of this info.

Last night I was on Vods and I was watching this match https://vods.co/v/bjnxlp?position=2&list=9U4KP_J2A86JLdEeQtfnI4ceDKsTLYsAenJ61PHZogg as a way to study how Mango reacts to situations and I was blown away that even in the FIRST 20 SECONDS the same situation happens twice and Mango had already mixed up his approach.
First He does some sick shine pressure on shield and gets naired OoS by Plup's Sheik. Not even 10 seconds later does the same situation happen: Mango doing shine pressure on Plup's Shield and instead he waits to try and punish Sheik's Nair OoS.
What really blew my mind, though was how Plup reacted differently and mixed up his options as well. Instead of Nair, he just jumps away and tries to punish with a fair.

It was awesome to break down the video and look in depth at the different options, It took me 30 minutes just to get through and break down 40 seconds of the video.
I'm assuming as I practice this, I'll be able to get better at identifying things like this without having to pause and rewind constantly...
 

FE_Hector

Smash Lord
Joined
May 26, 2015
Messages
1,420
Location
Raleigh, NC
Wow. This, along with some of the other answers to my question, is the REASON why I come here to ask questions.
I've been taking in a lot of this info.

Last night I was on Vods and I was watching this match https://vods.co/v/bjnxlp?position=2&list=9U4KP_J2A86JLdEeQtfnI4ceDKsTLYsAenJ61PHZogg as a way to study how Mango reacts to situations and I was blown away that even in the FIRST 20 SECONDS the same situation happens twice and Mango had already mixed up his approach.
First He does some sick shine pressure on shield and gets naired OoS by Plup's Sheik. Not even 10 seconds later does the same situation happen: Mango doing shine pressure on Plup's Shield and instead he waits to try and punish Sheik's Nair OoS.
What really blew my mind, though was how Plup reacted differently and mixed up his options as well. Instead of Nair, he just jumps away and tries to punish with a fair.

It was awesome to break down the video and look in depth at the different options, It took me 30 minutes just to get through and break down 40 seconds of the video.
I'm assuming as I practice this, I'll be able to get better at identifying things like this without having to pause and rewind constantly...
Match analysis is definitely super fun and you'll get way better at doing it as you practice more and more. One thing you also have to remember is that top players are pretty much making all of their mixups 100% consciously and are attempting to adapt almost instantly, like you mentioned Mango doing. They're gonna do their best to never get punished for the same mistake twice in one set, maybe ever. It's definitely cool to watch.
 

V_x_I_D

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Sep 23, 2014
Messages
85
NNID
V_x_I_D
Match analysis is definitely super fun and you'll get way better at doing it as you practice more and more. One thing you also have to remember is that top players are pretty much making all of their mixups 100% consciously and are attempting to adapt almost instantly, like you mentioned Mango doing. They're gonna do their best to never get punished for the same mistake twice in one set, maybe ever. It's definitely cool to watch.
YES. That's what blew my mind!
It happened just ONCE and immediately the mixups began.
THAT fast, it's absolutely ridiculous, but amazing.
 

FE_Hector

Smash Lord
Joined
May 26, 2015
Messages
1,420
Location
Raleigh, NC
YES. That's what blew my mind!
It happened just ONCE and immediately the mixups began.
THAT fast, it's absolutely ridiculous, but amazing.
I've noticed stuff like that happening before. At the Smash Summit, when PPMD was playing against Armada, one of their games was Falco-Peach on DL.

PPMD approach #1: Dair that he didn't get too much off of
PPMD approach #2: Dair that missed cuz Armada WDd back
PPMD approach #3: Nair to cover WD back that Armada CC dsmashed

This happens really fast. I rewatched the clip a few times trying to figure out why PPMD approached with a CCable nair, and now I know. It's fun to figure out.
 
Top Bottom