PPMD's Falco Discussion Thread

[RevySSB]

do u mean that your shine isn't grounded or that you're having a hard time getting it out?

It isnt grounded

 

[FE_Hector]

It isnt grounded

Like I said earlier, you have to input it faster. The timing's the same as for WDing.

 

[MastaCHEF55]

It isnt grounded

if u have trouble keeping it grounded u can wd down after the shine comes out to keep the bird on the ground

 

[GenNyan]

if u have trouble keeping it grounded u can wd down after the shine comes out to keep the bird on the ground

No you can't. Not only is that not the same thing, but trying to double jump out of shine to wavedash down wouldn't even work. You'd just air dodge.

 

[MastaCHEF55]

No you can't. Not only is that not the same thing, but trying to double jump out of shine to wavedash down wouldn't even work. You'd just air dodge.

if u do it fast enough it works very well. It's kinda the same idea as westballz pressure.
shield > jump > shine > jump > air dodge down

 

[FE_Hector]

if u do it fast enough it works very well. It's kinda the same idea as westballz pressure.
shield > jump > shine > jump > air dodge down

I wanna throw in here that Westballz pressure looks good, but is far from safe.

 

[MastaCHEF55]

I wanna throw in here that Westballz pressure looks good, but is far from safe.

soooooooo true. it definately has its place though. having the mobility to cross up ur opponent with the air dodge is pretty amazing for mixups

 

[GenNyan]

if u do it fast enough it works very well. It's kinda the same idea as westballz pressure.
shield > jump > shine > jump > air dodge down

What you just described is shine out of shield. You can waveshine after, like you described, but that doesn't work if his problem was that he was in the air by the time he shined. Wavedashing doesn't actually keep you on the ground (If you shine OOS correctly you will stay on the ground regardless) and isn't necessary to perform a shine OOS.


Really the only thing you can do RevySSB is do it faster. I trained my dexterity by sliding my fingers as fast as I could from y to b on an unplugged controller while watching TV. That increased my finger speed to the point where I could easily get the input consistently. Obviously this method isn't strictly necessary, but it helped me.

 

[MastaCHEF55]

What you just described is shine out of shield. You can waveshine after, like you described, but that doesn't work if his problem was that he was in the air by the time he shined. Wavedashing doesn't actually keep you on the ground (If you shine OOS correctly you will stay on the ground regardless) and isn't necessary to perform a shine OOS.


Really the only thing you can do RevySSB is do it faster. I trained my dexterity by sliding my fingers as fast as I could from y to b on an unplugged controller while watching TV. That increased my finger speed to the point where I could easily get the input consistently. Obviously this method isn't strictly necessary, but it helped me.

u obviously dont understand what i talking about so ill take a vid of it later when i have a chance and put it in here for you

 

[FE_Hector]

GenNyan I think that what MastaCHEF55 was saying is that you shine -> low airborne shine on their shield -> instant DJ WL down instead of dubshine -> WD to the other side of their shield.

 

[MastaCHEF55]

GenNyan I think that what MastaCHEF55 was saying is that you shine -> low airborne shine on their shield -> instant DJ WL down instead of dubshine -> WD to the other side of their shield.

YES! thank you my man

 

[X WaNtEd X]

Theoretically, what is the safest pressure?

 

[MastaCHEF55]

Theoretically, what is the safest pressure?

nair low af on shield > shine > instant nair fade back

or i guess a **** ton of super fast multishines

 

[FE_Hector]

Theoretically, what is the safest pressure?

nair low af on shield > shine > instant nair fade back

or i guess a **** ton of super fast multishines

The actual answer (kinda opinionated) is SHFFL low nair on shield (lower quarter works fine) dubshine grab. Multishines aren't truly safe because your opponent can buffer roll out after the second shine. SHFFL nair shine fadeaway nair is pretty good for damage, but even if you get a shield stab, you probably won't get too much off of it anyways. SHFFL nair shine is safe on shield, and dubshine is safe, too, so SHFFL nair dubshine grab is the best imo because if your shines don't get a shield stab, you still get a grab. If the shines do shield stab, you almost always have time to follow up afterwards. It's kinda a win-win-win situation imo, not too much RPS involved.

 

[GenNyan]

GenNyan I think that what MastaCHEF55 was saying is that you shine -> low airborne shine on their shield -> instant DJ WL down instead of dubshine -> WD to the other side of their shield.

That is such a niche purpose compared to shine OOS, and they don't even cover the same options. Shine OOS is used defensively in response to pressure and you described that technique as being used to pressure someone's shield. Shine OOS is something that simply must be learned for high level play.

 

[MastaCHEF55]

That is such a niche purpose compared to shine OOS, and they don't even cover the same options. Shine OOS is used defensively in response to pressure and you described that technique as being used to pressure someone's shield. Shine OOS is something that simply must be learned for high level play.

alright i think that ur just trolling at this point

 

[FE_Hector]

alright i think that ur just trolling at this point

The original question by RevySSBM (SSB?) was about shine out of shield, so no he's not.

 

[OninO]

You are never safe. Forget about safe pressure, think about smart pressure. What are you trying to achieve? Are you trying to trigger a roll reaction in someone that likes to roll out of pressure? Something as simple as a jab at max range can trigger a roll reaction. Are you trying to punish a grab attempt? Shine after nair, even better, delay the shine timing if they're conditioned to attempt the grab after the shine. Are you trying to punish someone who just holds shield for a long time before acting? Grab them, or if part of an aggresive aerial string, shine->grab them.

Think about what your opponent does, then think about how to maximize the punish for that option given percent ranges. For example, if an opponent likes to shield grab after shine then nair->shine->instant nair is a great punish at higher percents, but a **** one at low percents. Conversely, nair->shine->shine is good at low and bad at high.

 

[MastaCHEF55]

You are never safe. Forget about safe pressure, think about smart pressure. What are you trying to achieve? Are you trying to trigger a roll reaction in someone that likes to roll out of pressure? Something as simple as a jab at max range can trigger a roll reaction. Are you trying to punish a grab attempt? Shine after nair, even better, delay the shine timing if they're conditioned to attempt the grab after the shine. Are you trying to punish someone who just holds shield for a long time before acting? Grab them, or if part of an aggresive aerial string, shine->grab them.

Think about what your opponent does, then think about how to maximize the punish for that option given percent ranges. For example, if an opponent likes to shield grab after shine then nair->shine->instant nair is a great punish at higher percents, but a **** one at low percents. Conversely, nair->shine->shine is good at low and bad at high.

Yea that is def the best way to think about pressure. Sometimes even just moving or dash dancing around their shield the right way can get the reaction that you want out of your opponent.

 

[RevySSB]

i cant multishine slow what. And i havent been able to try my multishine shield pressure because everytime i try i accidently input a down tilt

 

[MastaCHEF55]

i cant multishine slow what. And i havent been able to try my multishine shield pressure because everytime i try i accidently input a down tilt

multishine pressure is pretty overrated tbh. I mean dont get me wrong its badass af to bust out like 10 multishines on someones shield, but the way OninO explained pressure above is def the best way to look at it

 

[GenNyan]

i cant multishine slow what. And i havent been able to try my multishine shield pressure because everytime i try i accidently input a down tilt

I assume you use X to multishine then. It sounds like you aren't quite fast enough, because your finger will ideally hit A while you're still in jump squat.

No wait... that would make you perform an aerial. I have no idea how you're accidentally inputting Dtilt. What inputs are you using?

 

[OninO]

It's because you try to shine too early, hit B in the landing lag window (can't be input) then as you sweep to X/Y you hit A once you're out of landing lag, inputting a d-tilt.

Slow down your shine input very slightly after the aerial.

Also, the motion to multishine is probably better thought of as a quick sweep from X/Y to B rather than B to X/Y

 

[Bones0]

Bones0
Sick post. You mind if I post it on reddit?

Nope, have at it.

 

[X WaNtEd X]

So I figured out that if you full hop rising dair on Yoshi's, you can consistently shield poke Fox on the top platform in full shield without really trying. You need to do it directly under him. I was able to do it as many times as 20+ in a row.

 

[MastaCHEF55]

So I figured out that if you full hop rising dair on Yoshi's, you can consistently shield poke Fox on the top platform in full shield without really trying. You need to do it directly under him. I was able to do it as many times as 20+ in a row.

Yo that's super cool. If ur a legend you can technically shield poke marth's head too if you jump above him. Too bad shield angling is a thing :/ I feel like I haven't gotten a shield poke on someone above me on a platform in a while since the homies have been doing this crazy shield drop **** LMAO

 

[X WaNtEd X]

Yo that's super cool. If ur a legend you can technically shield poke marth's head too if you jump above him. Too bad shield angling is a thing :/ I feel like I haven't gotten a shield poke on someone above me on a platform in a while since the homies have been doing this crazy shield drop **** LMAO

The thing about shield angling is that it's going out of fashion to a certain extent. Or at least shield tilting on platforms. In order to shield drop, you either are going to tilt shield right or left or keep it neutral. So someone that's just about to shield drop is going to get caught offguard by this. You could beat this by tilting shield down and then moving your shield back to neutral or right/left tilt and shield dropping. But even that won't always work if their shield is dying.

 

[MastaCHEF55]

The thing about shield angling is that it's going out of fashion to a certain extent. Or at least shield tilting on platforms. In order to shield drop, you either are going to tilt shield right or left or keep it neutral. So someone that's just about to shield drop is going to get caught offguard by this. You could beat this by tilting shield down and then moving your shield back to neutral or right/left tilt and shield dropping. But even that won't always work if their shield is dying.

im a super big fan of shield angling so i REFUSE TO LET IT GO OUT OF FASHION lol. but fo realz i dont think shield dropping will ever totally replace shield angling on platforms. something about shield angling is just way 2 swag

 

[Klemes]

The thing about shield angling is that it's going out of fashion to a certain extent. Or at least shield tilting on platforms. In order to shield drop, you either are going to tilt shield right or left or keep it neutral. So someone that's just about to shield drop is going to get caught offguard by this. You could beat this by tilting shield down and then moving your shield back to neutral or right/left tilt and shield dropping. But even that won't always work if their shield is dying.

Or you could train to shield-drop the hard way. Without using the notches on the control stick, just tilt it down halfway, not too fast, not too slow. That's how I do it. For months, I conditionned myself to shield-drop all the time, and not ever drop from platforms any other way (except isai-drop lasers). Do it to warm-up, do it between stocks etc. Sure I got killed contless times for spot-dodging on platforms like a ******, but I swear it was all worth it. Now shield-drop doesn't give me any trouble and gives me soooo many easy oppenings, it's ridiculous. Being on a platform went from the worst spot ever to an actually advantageous*(if that's even a word in english) position.

And shield-dropping this way lets you angle your shield all you want and doesn't need to be set up. I never ever get poked by Marth for example. The one move you cant really be safe from is fox's uair : when you angle to cover your feet he can FH past you then do a falling uair to poke your head, plus it's a two-hit move so your shield gets smaller from eating the first hit, making it easier to poke with the second hit. Falco's shine-wavelands seem to poke well too. So against spacies you shouldn't be too comfortable on platforms anyway.

 

[GenNyan]

So I figured out that if you full hop rising dair on Yoshi's, you can consistently shield poke Fox on the top platform in full shield without really trying. You need to do it directly under him. I was able to do it as many times as 20+ in a row.

How would you really condition fox to shield on top plat though? I barely play people so conditioning is one of my weaknesses.

 

[RevySSB]

I assume you use X to multishine then. It sounds like you aren't quite fast enough, because your finger will ideally hit A while you're still in jump squat.

No wait... that would make you perform an aerial. I have no idea how you're accidentally inputting Dtilt. What inputs are you using?

X+B. I can't multishine after hitting someone with shine anyway

 

[MastaCHEF55]

Or you could train to shield-drop the hard way. Without using the notches on the control stick, just tilt it down halfway, not too fast, not too slow. That's how I do it. For months, I conditionned myself to shield-drop all the time, and not ever drop from platforms any other way (except isai-drop lasers). Do it to warm-up, do it between stocks etc. Sure I got killed contless times for spot-dodging on platforms like a ******, but I swear it was all worth it. Now shield-drop doesn't give me any trouble and gives me soooo many easy oppenings, it's ridiculous. Being on a platform went from the worst spot ever to an actually advantageous*(if that's even a word in english) position.

And shield-dropping this way lets you angle your shield all you want and doesn't need to be set up. I never ever get poked by Marth for example. The one move you cant really be safe from is fox's uair : when you angle to cover your feet he can FH past you then do a falling uair to poke your head, plus it's a two-hit move so your shield gets smaller from eating the first hit, making it easier to poke with the second hit. Falco's shine-wavelands seem to poke well too. So against spacies you shouldn't be too comfortable on platforms anyway.

yea thats how i do it too. I <3 being able to shield drop after angling my shield however i want

 

[OninO]

For guys who shield drop straight down, how do you go from angled to the requisite drop motion?

 

[X WaNtEd X]

snip

Yeah so I also trained myself to shield drop that way and I've been doing it consistently for over a year now. It's my main way of shield dropping.

Thing is, tilting your shield down to cover the part of fox's hurtbox exposed requires you to tilt past the point where you shield drop. So in order to shield drop after that, you need to move your shield up a bit and then go down.

How would you really condition fox to shield on top plat though? I barely play people so conditioning is one of my weaknesses.

Coming from a Ganon background, I'm decent at conditioning. For this, you wouldn't really be conditioning because the risk reward isn't there. You'd just be doing this when you predict fox will be directly above you on the top platform. The idea is that if fox happens to shield when seeing your full hop dair, he'll get shield poked. I'd advise only doing this at high percents, other wise you get nothing.

 

[X WaNtEd X]

im a super big fan of shield angling so i REFUSE TO LET IT GO OUT OF FASHION lol. but fo realz i dont think shield dropping will ever totally replace shield angling on platforms. something about shield angling is just way 2 swag

It's not like people won't use it. I'm just saying that people will, and already do, abuse shield drops without thinking. And shield dropping limits the way you angle your shield. It's just the new meta. Or at least that's what I'm seeing in my region.

 

[MastaCHEF55]

For guys who shield drop straight down, how do you go from angled to the requisite drop motion?

I just input a slight downward (not all the way down to the bottom notch. Just like halfway) motion with the control stick and clip through the platform. It doesn't matter how my shield is angled as long as I get the right rhythm/speed on the tilt input down. Keep in mind though that I've been using this controller for a little more than a year now and I haven't tried shield dropping with a different one. I always hear people say how much your controller matters with this ****.

 

[FE_Hector]

I'm not horribly proficient at shield dropping since I haven't practiced it much yet, but I do it the same way that MastaCHEF55 described above. I can probably get it half of the time if I don't angle my shield, but I'm not at the point where I can just do slick shield drop aerials or any of that fun stuff.

 

[Klemes]

Shield-drop > shine > waveland back on platform is so good. It's like an auto win situation when you get pressured on a platform.

 

[X WaNtEd X]

My method for shield dropping on any remotely acceptable controller:

1. Find the vertical distance on your control stick it takes to crouch on a platform without falling through.

2. Apply that while in shield.

 

[MastaCHEF55]

Shield-drop > shine > waveland back on platform is so good. It's like an auto win situation when you get pressured on a platform.

Yea I like doing that instead of shine oos on platforms. It feels like u get the shine out way faster with the shield drop rather than with a normal shine oos.