PPMD's Falco Discussion Thread

[GenNyan]

Wow multishining was easier than i thought i literally just had to watch a video and i could doubleshine in like 3 times (i know its only a doubleshine but im proud)

wow i can even tripeshine now wtf this was so easy

Its good that you're proud-- and you should be, but with that being said, don't get too far ahead of yourself. Your multishines are likely very slow and will leave gaps in your shield pressure. Just practice it often and you'll speed up fairly naturally.

 

[SpiderMad]

Wow multishining was easier than i thought i literally just had to watch a video and i could doubleshine in like 3 times (i know its only a doubleshine but im proud)

wow i can even tripeshine now wtf this was so easy

what video?

 

[OninO]

RevySSB congrats! Now stop wasting your time

In all seriousness though, multishine should be somewhere far down in your list of techs to practise, somewhere around walljump dair.

 

[Michelangelo]

How do you guys deal with the lasers and pressure in a falco ditto. Pretty ironic but i just can't play against another falco.

 

[RevySSB]

RevySSB congrats! Now stop wasting your time

In all seriousness though, multishine should be somewhere far down in your list of techs to practise, somewhere around walljump dair.

Oh yeah that is easy already know how to do that

 

[RevySSB]

How do you guys deal with the lasers and pressure in a falco ditto. Pretty ironic but i just can't play against another falco.

Same problem, i just get super annoyed when falcos spam lasers in general so i just double jump until hes close enough

 

[RevySSB]

Its good that you're proud-- and you should be, but with that being said, don't get too far ahead of yourself. Your multishines are likely very slow and will leave gaps in your shield pressure. Just practice it often and you'll speed up fairly naturally.

No they are fast im telling you, im just not super consistent. My doubleshines are but not my triple ones

 

[Michelangelo]

No they are fast im telling you, im just not super consistent. My doubleshines are but not my triple ones

Multishining is of course fun to do (my record is 16 XD) but it shouldn't replace your other practice. I think multishining is maybe something to start thinking about when your L cancels are at least 90% and you don't mess up any wavedashes, waveshines and you know how to combo your opponent. Like hax said: kids these days quad shine your shield but they can't even shffl. It's actually pretty useless. Sure, it's cool and flashy shield pressure but shinegrab will most time do the job too. The only time i actually "practice" multishining is between stocks.

 

[FE_Hector]

RevySSB You can quote multiple things in one post so as to not double/triple post. Michelangelo Don't FF when you shoot your first laser so you can laser immediately after getting hit by that of your opponent. If you're getting locked down, jump to a plat and come down with a laser to re-establish pressure.

 

[Michelangelo]

FE_Hector what if i'm on FD and he's comming towards me with lasers, get's me in my shield and then starts pressuring me with shines and aerials. If i roll everytime it get's predictible even i mix up left or right. And how do i win the laser war in neutral.

 

[C-SAF]

Michelangelo Its really important to be able to shoot high lasers that are still fast fell in the ditto. It will cut off ur opponent's shl as they jump up to do it. If u are getting locked down by high lasers u can actually just run under them to close ground or run away. Ur opponent will respond to this by shooting low lasers, at which point u can jump over them and shoot a high laser etc...

Especially on FD, that's what the falco ditto boils down to. Each of u want to cutoff the others shl with a high laser, but also has to be aware of the other running under the high lasers. If u lose this exchange or cant get a read on what laser u should shoot yet, full hop and hope to reset. Shooting a laser as u land from ur full hop can help to re-establish ur own control.

I should add that this all changes if one of u is especially good at powershielding, that adds another consideration into how u should laser.

As for shines --> aerial pressure, u should practice angling ur shield and shining oos to counter attack. Wading through pressure is difficult, but being patient and getting a read on when u can counter attack is the best way to dissuade it. The only way I was able to practice this however was being pressured in friendlies, its not something I was able to lab and just gets better the more u try.

 

[Michelangelo]

C-SAF yeah my OOS game isn't very good yet and i believe i can actually practice that with 20xx in game toggles. Especially shine OOS, i always forget it. But thanks for the help. I was having a lot of troubles with the matchup.

 

[C-SAF]

C-SAF yeah my OOS game isn't very good yet and i believe i can actually practice that with 20xx in game toggles. Especially shine OOS, i always forget it. But thanks for the help. I was having a lot of troubles with the matchup.

Darn, I need to get 20XX. Seems like im grinding everything the slow way.

 

[Michelangelo]

C-SAF if you're gonna get it, i would take one of the older versions because the newest version doesn't have the in game toggles yet.

 

[Bones0]

Biggest help vs. laser storms is to be able to WD OoS as soon as possible. Most Falcos will instantly SHFFL an aerial when they see you shield a laser, so a simple WD back will let you counterattack in various ways (grab being the simplest but not the most ideal). A fadeaway dair can also be decent at stuffing approaches, but once you start incorporating these counterapproaches, they may stop approaching as soon as you shield a laser at which point it becomes a mixup of whether you are going to do a defensive option (gives up stage if they don't attack) or an offensive option (leaves you vulnerable if they just DDed out of your range after the laser).

Rolling in is unique in this situation. It it is a defensive option, but if they laser DD you might get punished (depends on how they were spaced/how much they were predicting it). If they SHFFL an aerial towards you and you roll, you won't get a direct punish but you totally flip the script as far as stage control is concerned. Conditioning your opponent is critical in these mixup scenarios, no option will work all the time. Things like FHing or rolling away will seem very safe in the moment, but they can put you in super terrible positionings that are hard to come back from. FH is especially risky at high % because they can just trade whereas at low % you can FH and not worry too much about coming down with a dair.

Get in the habit of basing your decision both on what options you have done previously as well as how your opponent is spaced. If he's further away, rolling in obviously gets nerfed while FHing gets buffed. If he's right up on you with a laser, rolling in and counterattacking are more viable while other defensive options are less useful (a WD back after a point blank laser will put you in his perfect SHFFL spacing).

 

[GenNyan]

I've been having trouble with using Fair and Shine->aerial out of an Uthrow (Both against spacies). I can almost never get multiple hits of the fair to connect, am I supposed to start it as soon as I jump, or slightly later? And am I supposed to move forwards when I do it, jump straight up, or jump back? Or maybe I have to dash forwards/back before I jump?

As for Uthrow shine, I can hit them with the shine, but I get stuck in the shine b/c I use analog to jump when I'm in the air (For the instant aerial afterwards). I think that the reason I get stuck in the shine is because I move forward before I jump to follow them in the air, so I might end up doing a quarter circle up with the stick and the jump doesn't come out. I just can't get the hang of it, any tips?

(To help visualize it, here is what I currently do for Uthrow shine)
-->(Dash left)-->-->-->--

 

[Michelangelo]

GenNyan for fair i believe your opponent has to DI in or at least not away for multiple hits and it only works below 50% (Not 100%).

For the upthrow shine you're doing the right inputs i'd say. I also sometimes use the control stick in air but for upthrow shine i do prefer using X/Y. You'll probably use it at lower % to start a combo so the time between the shine and dair won't be big enough for your opponent to get out of it but control stick will also work. If you get stuck in the shine you're either putting it up too soon or you turn around which can also get you stuck.

I'm a
still pretty new to smash so everything i say can very likely be wrong but this is just what i think.

 

[GenNyan]

GenNyan for fair i believe your opponent has to DI in or at least not away for multiple hits and it only works below 50% (Not 100%).

For the upthrow shine you're doing the right inputs i'd say. I also sometimes use the control stick in air but for upthrow shine i do prefer using X/Y. You'll probably use it at lower % to start a combo so the time between the shine and dair won't be big enough for your opponent to get out of it but control stick will also work. If you get stuck in the shine you're either putting it up too soon or you turn around which can also get you stuck.

I'm a
still pretty new to smash so everything i say can very likely be wrong but this is just what i think.

I'm practicing on lvl 1 cpus who almost never DI upthrow btw. Did not know the %s though, thanks.

I guess I'll just keep practicing Uthrow shine and try to break it down into steps, to see exactly where I mess up. I might actually just be pressing up too quickly.

 

[TeeJay308]

Biggest help vs. laser storms is to be able to WD OoS as soon as possible. Most Falcos will instantly SHFFL an aerial when they see you shield a laser, so a simple WD back will let you counterattack in various ways (grab being the simplest but not the most ideal). A fadeaway dair can also be decent at stuffing approaches, but once you start incorporating these counterapproaches, they may stop approaching as soon as you shield a laser at which point it becomes a mixup of whether you are going to do a defensive option (gives up stage if they don't attack) or an offensive option (leaves you vulnerable if they just DDed out of your range after the laser).

Rolling in is unique in this situation. It it is a defensive option, but if they laser DD you might get punished (depends on how they were spaced/how much they were predicting it). If they SHFFL an aerial towards you and you roll, you won't get a direct punish but you totally flip the script as far as stage control is concerned. Conditioning your opponent is critical in these mixup scenarios, no option will work all the time. Things like FHing or rolling away will seem very safe in the moment, but they can put you in super terrible positionings that are hard to come back from. FH is especially risky at high % because they can just trade whereas at low % you can FH and not worry too much about coming down with a dair.

Get in the habit of basing your decision both on what options you have done previously as well as how your opponent is spaced. If he's further away, rolling in obviously gets nerfed while FHing gets buffed. If he's right up on you with a laser, rolling in and counterattacking are more viable while other defensive options are less useful (a WD back after a point blank laser will put you in his perfect SHFFL spacing).

I'd like to add that wavelanding onto a platform is also decent to regain momentum in the ditto. If you read their approach and you waveland onto a platform, it leaves them in an awkward position. You might catch them offguard and land with a DAir to start your own combo.

 

[Klemes]

I've been having trouble with using Fair and Shine->aerial out of an Uthrow (Both against spacies). I can almost never get multiple hits of the fair to connect, am I supposed to start it as soon as I jump, or slightly later? And am I supposed to move forwards when I do it, jump straight up, or jump back? Or maybe I have to dash forwards/back before I jump?

As for Uthrow shine, I can hit them with the shine, but I get stuck in the shine b/c I use analog to jump when I'm in the air (For the instant aerial afterwards). I think that the reason I get stuck in the shine is because I move forward before I jump to follow them in the air, so I might end up doing a quarter circle up with the stick and the jump doesn't come out. I just can't get the hang of it, any tips?

(To help visualize it, here is what I currently do for Uthrow shine)
-->(Dash left)-->-->-->--

Hum. I could be wrong, but to me u-throw>fair was most useful on floatier characters, especially on marth at early %. Not really on spacies. PP sometime did it to marths like every single new stocks. If I visualise it right, he just did u-trow>FH(move forward when airborne)>fair (typically landing the first 3 hits). And it might only work on DI in, as a mixup, but only landing the first hit isn't bad either : still a weak hit, marth is still an easy target in the air.

So I also tap-jump to jump out of shine, and yeah I can relate as there are times when it just doesn't work right. I can shine-bair 100%, but lately I've been getting stuck a lot when trying to shine-turnaround. Problematic, especially when edge-guarding offstage. I think there's no secret : it's just that the analog stick needs to be either perfectly neutral or kept down before tap-jumping. This way there's no risk of your input not being read because the stick was already seen in the upper zone.
So my advice is to hold down in anticipation of the down-b input, shine, and instantly hit your analog stick up : straight from down to up. Then c-stick aerial.

 

[RevySSB]

what video?

Sorry for the late response but i just watched SSBM Tutorials Multishine Tutorial with Squid as a guest. I just thought the motion was X+B in just one motion but it was 2 motions. It was very easy to learn because im very technical as a person and i have a easy time learning technical stuff in everything i do. I think i have a lot of potentional in smash because i'm still pretty young and have alot of time to practice/play on my own. Which is how you get good but the only thing that makes me unable to get any tournament experience is that i cant travel

 

[V_x_I_D]

So guys, I still need help with the Falcon matchup.
I have such trouble because once falcon gains momentum and stage control I can't seem to win.
I can lock him out with lasers, but a well spaced Nair can be the start of that momentum shift.

It looks like the first match of S2J - Westballz set at TNE, lol.

 

[FE_Hector]

Spaced bairs and utilt beat out his nair. You've gotta learn what of your options beats what of Falcon's options. The fact that you can beat so much of what he can do, though, is why Falco is generally agreed to win the MU.

 

[V_x_I_D]

Spaced bairs and utilt beat out his nair. You've gotta learn what of your options beats what of Falcon's options. The fact that you can beat so much of what he can do, though, is why Falco is generally agreed to win the MU.

Thanks, I also asked the guy that i play against what I could work on and he said this: "play smarter, your approach game isn't that good, it's filled with nothing but laser and shield pressure. you don't get anything off of lasers and you're super easy to predict with them so I just jump and hit you before your laser comes out."

 

[FE_Hector]

Thanks, I also asked the guy that i play against what I could work on and he said this: "play smarter, your approach game isn't that good, it's filled with nothing but laser and shield pressure. you don't get anything off of lasers and you're super easy to predict with them so I just jump and hit you before your laser comes out."

That's definitely something you'll want to fix, then. Mix up when and how high you laser and also mix in safe aerials and the like. It's a bit difficult to learn the MU, but if you consciously think about it, it becomes far easier.

 

[Klemes]

Thanks, I also asked the guy that i play against what I could work on and he said this: "play smarter, your approach game isn't that good, it's filled with nothing but laser and shield pressure. you don't get anything off of lasers and you're super easy to predict with them so I just jump and hit you before your laser comes out."

You could experiment and try NOT to approach him for a few games. Concentrate on being very safe with your lasers and on beating Falcons different agressive options with your defence/spacing. Stay patient and don't mind him if he spaces nairs for you to run into, or if he shield stops right in front of you to bait something he can punish.
What you need to know is this : your bair beats his everything. Don't let him grab you in neutral.

Try and see if you can gain control of the ground by doing this. Eventually, Falcon should take off and go in the air/on platforms : this is where the matchup gets unfair for him. When he's above you, you can hit him off the air very safely, then resume controlling the ground if you don't get a big punish from it. What is even better is to intercept him on his way up, or when he lands on a platform. If you can get a shine-waveland or a rising dair, the festival should begin : go and decimate him with a westballz punish ! Or fish for a d-smash to send him offstage at a horrible angle, and exploit Falcon's weak recovery (free dair 9 out of 10 times).

 

[Synnett]

Hey guys, I'm having a hard time against falco. I mean, I can lightshield the dair shine fine, but I can't really get anything out of it and I usually get grabbed... any weaknesses I can punish?

 

[FE_Hector]

Solely addressing the situation you mentioned, shine, bair, nair, and dair OoS are all good options for punishing a high or mid-height dair on shield.

 

[Synnett]

Solely addressing the situation you mentioned, shine, bair, nair, and dair OoS are all good options for punishing a high or mid-height dair on shield.

That's... I main Bowser xD

But thanks, the issue is that Boozer have zero priority on all his moves. I still haven't found something the pierces through his dair.

 

[GenNyan]

Hey guys, I'm having a hard time against falco. I mean, I can lightshield the dair shine fine, but I can't really get anything out of it and I usually get grabbed... any weaknesses I can punish?

You play bowser, right? I've never heard of people using light shield vs falco, but I guess thats a bowser thing. If you can't do anything, just buffer roll. Try angling you shield upwards maybe, so he misses the L-cancel.

Falco's laser leaves him very vulnerable if it whiffs, you might be able to exploit that. Problem of course is that bowser is so damn big, making it hard to avoid them, and his jump is so laggy, so short hopping over the lasers is less effective than w/ other chars. Power shielding seems like it would make this MU much easier. If you manage to get falco off stage it should be a KO, I'm not sure of bowser's options but you should be able to cover a lot of falco's recoveries. Side-B is his strongest option since its so fast, watch out especially for that one. I would recommend WD back punishes, but I don't know if bowser's jump squat makes it a terrible option or not. I consider this MU ****e for bowser, but if you can't maneuver between lasers its completely unwinnable.

This is just me rambling about theory though. I've never played a bowser, so this might be terrible advice.

 

[OninO]

Synnett basically your best option is upB OoS, it's invincible on start up so as soon as the dair hits your shield spam upB (or learn the hitstun timing as precisely as possible).

You can also try to Up-B him as he's landing on you, the invincibility will beat out the dair. Same trick works with DK.

 

[Klemes]

Hey guys, I'm having a hard time against falco. I mean, I can lightshield the dair shine fine, but I can't really get anything out of it and I usually get grabbed... any weaknesses I can punish?

Yeah. up-b OoS is actually like the best anti-pressure in the whole game.

It's also normal that you cannot punish out of light-shield : you get pushed off too far. I think the best place to light-shield is on platforms : it'll keep you very very safe (from shield stab, and you can shield drop/jump/up-b if he jumps on platform to grab you).

Also, dair-shine on shield is pretty hard to do with the dair low enough so that your enemy is unable to shield-grab. Try and shield normally, and shield-grab between the dair and the shine. However you should know that falco's nair>shine is better on shield (safer at not getting shield-grabedthan dair>shine).

 

[RevySSB]

How do you guys even lightshield? I have to hold Z for that.

 

[FE_Hector]

Barely hold L/R

 

[GenNyan]

How do you guys even lightshield?

I don't.

 

[Klemes]

I lightshield on platforms to wait out my opponents respawn invicibility. Never ever got punished for it. Only things to look out for is them jumping on platform to grab, being pushed off the platform by an attack, and Marth's shieldbreaker (because light-shield takes more damage than regular shield iirc).

 

[FE_Hector]

There are times where lightshielding is actually really smart. For example, if you're under heavy laser pressure and don't think you have any good avenue for escape, you could lightshield if you're close enough to the edge and let yourself get pushed to the edge since lightshield gets knocked back further.

 

[TallandGangly]

How do you guys practice edgeguarding spacies? Do yo break it down into a flow chart? In the past, I've just sort of felt it out, and did whatever felt right, but I drop SOOOOO many edgeguards. It is absurd. How can I improve that with any spacies to train with?

 

[FE_Hector]

How do you guys practice edgeguarding spacies? Do yo break it down into a flow chart? In the past, I've just sort of felt it out, and did whatever felt right, but I drop SOOOOO many edgeguards. It is absurd. How can I improve that with any spacies to train with?

First and foremost, focus on getting in laser gimps, I suppose you could call them. Try to get them as low as you possibly can before doing anything else. Running off and doing DJ double lasers out at them is also pretty good if you've got the time. Past that, you generally want to grab edge first to cut off their sideB option. If they're far enough away, odds are that you can just jump back up and bair them back offstage, rinse and repeat. PPMDs edgeguards as Falco are generally pretty good, and he did quite the job a few times at SKTAR 3 vs Mango and Genesis against Armada.

 

[GenNyan]

How do you guys practice edgeguarding spacies? Do yo break it down into a flow chart? In the past, I've just sort of felt it out, and did whatever felt right, but I drop SOOOOO many edgeguards. It is absurd. How can I improve that with any spacies to train with?

Actively thinking about it, in game and out, can help you improve tremendously. Keep in mind all of your options and your opponents options (Shinestalls, 1 double jump, 1 air dodge, 4 side-b lengths, and 352 firefox/bird angles).

EDIT: typo