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PPMD's Falco Discussion Thread

Wald0

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spotdodge-shine is very good for spacies, plus it's like the only technique that doesn't require tons of tech practise. It won't be much of an effort to incorporate, and it def. is very useful. Do it to get out of tech chases, sometimes to get out of shield pressure, and to beat grabs.
I've been spotdodging the way I do for 6 years (watch someone like Borp, we have a similar style of spotdodging) that's the ultimate way of using spotdodge.
Of course this is Sheik and not Falco but he does say he has one just saying
 

FE_Hector

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That spotdodging didn't look like anything amazing. It honestly looked like he spotdodged to try and punish the fact that his opponent was playing too aggressively. Borp was also clearly the better player. On top of that, most of them were just reads/attempted reads. Most of the time he spotdodged, his opponent would have gotten him before or after the spotdodge if he'd made safe decisions like fallthrough spaced bair -> WD ftilt. If you KNOW what your opponent is doing and aren't going for a read, then this kind of spotdodging is okay, but it looked super punishable.
 

EZPZ

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Spotdodge like that against a Captain Falcon then come back and say it's overpowered
 

Wald0

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That spotdodging didn't look like anything amazing. It honestly looked like he spotdodged to try and punish the fact that his opponent was playing too aggressively. Borp was also clearly the better player. On top of that, most of them were just reads/attempted reads. Most of the time he spotdodged, his opponent would have gotten him before or after the spotdodge if he'd made safe decisions like fallthrough spaced bair -> WD ftilt. If you KNOW what your opponent is doing and aren't going for a read, then this kind of spotdodging is okay, but it looked super punishable.
I base my game off of hard reads so I almost always know what my opponent is doing. Yes a good player will punish this but still it can be prove annoying even against the best (Borp once played Mango, still lost but didn't get 4 stocked)
 

RevySSB

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These are shine-wavelands on platforms. You simply jump at him on the platform/slightly under the platform and shine him, then waveland on the platform. To do that, imediately jump out of the shine and airdodge down on the platform.

If you can't waveland on platforms yet, practice it in training mode. Do it on different stages as well, on side and top platforms, to get used to the different heights. At first without shine, full hop, then double jump when you're right in the middle of the platform and airdodge down. Then you can do it with the shine. FH - shine -instant DJ - airdodge down on platform.
i have no idea what you just said but it doenst matter i ended up practicing it and i can get it down sometimes in a match.
 

C-SAF

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I base my game off of hard reads so I almost always know what my opponent is doing. Yes a good player will punish this but still it can be prove annoying even against the best (Borp once played Mango, still lost but didn't get 4 stocked)
I think u need to stop looking to borp for inspiration. I know the set ur talking about and one of the biggest reasons he got rekt was b/c he wouldn't stop spotdodging. The goal of the game isn't to be annoying and not get 4stocked.
 

Wald0

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I think u need to stop looking to borp for inspiration. I know the set ur talking about and one of the biggest reasons he got rekt was b/c he wouldn't stop spotdodging. The goal of the game isn't to be annoying and not get 4stocked.
I'm comparing myself to him I'm not inspired by him...I've been spot-dodging the way I do for 6 years long before I even knew him. Though I use spot-dodge mostly to avoid +1 moves on shield like falcons knee or if I know that person is going to grab or jab or whatever. Borp's play-style is centered around spot-dodging and hard reads (no tech skill at all) whereas I am centered around movement and hard reads. Borp is the example that you don't need imense tech skill to win the match. I was just informing you about someone fully utilizing spot-dodge and trying to see if Falco can do anything of the sorts.
 

C-SAF

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I'm comparing myself to him I'm not inspired by him...I've been spot-dodging the way I do for 6 years long before I even knew him. Though I use spot-dodge mostly to avoid +1 moves on shield like falcons knee or if I know that person is going to grab or jab or whatever. Borp's play-style is centered around spot-dodging and hard reads (no tech skill at all) whereas I am centered around movement and hard reads. Borp is the example that you don't need imense tech skill to win the match. I was just informing you about someone fully utilizing spot-dodge and trying to see if Falco can do anything of the sorts.
My point is I don't think borp uses spot dodge very effectively, and that is exemplified by when he plays players better than hm. Someone already made the point that he was playing someone way worse than him in the video. U can use all sorts of dumb strategies when ur opponent is not very good. Borp is an example that bad gimmicks work on bad players, not that they are at all effective against good ones.

If u want to see spot dodge used effectively by falco, then its much better to look at high level falco play, rather than low level shiek play.
 

Pops1086

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How useful is d-throw against fox? I know he can't tech it because of his weight, so would that mean at lower percents reading which way fox DI's could result in a punish? I think it would be most effective on a platform while fox is at a lower percent, because it would be much easier to react to his DI.
 

FE_Hector

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How useful is d-throw against fox? I know he can't tech it because of his weight, so would that mean at lower percents reading which way fox DI's could result in a punish? I think it would be most effective on a platform while fox is at a lower percent, because it would be much easier to react to his DI.
It's also useful if you get a grab while your back is to the edge because it meteors them. Unless they meteor cancel it almost immediately, it's pretty much a free dair no matter what option they choose, and then you're in a relatively easy edgeguard situation. PPMD did this vs Mang0 at... it was either SKTAR 3 or Apex 2014. They're both amazing sets.
 

GenNyan

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I've been spotdodging the way I do for 6 years (watch someone like Borp, we have a similar style of spotdodging) that's the ultimate way of using spotdodge.
Of course this is Sheik and not Falco but he does say he has one just saying
All the other sheik had to do was forward smash to beat out the spot dodge. That or charge Down smash.

To answer your question, Falco's spot dodge-->shine is good as a mixup (Spamming it like you do in the sheik match won't get you very far though).
 

Klemes

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It's also useful if you get a grab while your back is to the edge because it meteors them. Unless they meteor cancel it almost immediately, it's pretty much a free dair no matter what option they choose, and then you're in a relatively easy edgeguard situation. PPMD did this vs Mang0 at... it was either SKTAR 3 or Apex 2014. They're both amazing sets.
D-throw facing the ledge can meteor as well. Hax did it to armada once. In both cases it depends on the DI.
 

Pr0fessor Flash

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How useful is d-throw against fox? I know he can't tech it because of his weight, so would that mean at lower percents reading which way fox DI's could result in a punish? I think it would be most effective on a platform while fox is at a lower percent, because it would be much easier to react to his DI.


It's also useful if you get a grab while your back is to the edge because it meteors them. Unless they meteor cancel it almost immediately, it's pretty much a free dair no matter what option they choose, and then you're in a relatively easy edgeguard situation. PPMD did this vs Mang0 at... it was either SKTAR 3 or Apex 2014. They're both amazing sets.

http://gfycat.com/WeirdPettyCaribou
 

Klemes

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How useful is d-throw against fox? I know he can't tech it because of his weight, so would that mean at lower percents reading which way fox DI's could result in a punish? I think it would be most effective on a platform while fox is at a lower percent, because it would be much easier to react to his DI.
Don't do it. He can't tech beccause he's not even knocked down by d-throw (in NTSC). What he can do is DI way behind or in front of Falco and punish imediately. Plus d-throw is so fast you absolutely can't react to DI, so it's a gamble, which isn't great.

Generally u-throw is best, it can give you great stuff like shine-bair, u-air, platform techchase, as long as they don't have godlike DI.
F-throw is very useful for stage position/ throw him offstage. You won't get a follow up if they tech away, but you can react to punish missed tech / in place / tech in if you position yourself in between, and shoot a safe laser to pressure him if tech away.

D-throw and b-throw are jank moves. Good DI will beat them clean all the time.
I think they can only pay off when you're already pressuring / comboing them like crazy, like you see westballz do from time to time. By then their nerves can momentarily crack, letting you abuse something they could react to most of the time.

You're right about d-throw beiing better on platforms though. Less room to get away.
 

Pops1086

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Don't do it. He can't tech beccause he's not even knocked down by d-throw (in NTSC). What he can do is DI way behind or in front of Falco and punish imediately. Plus d-throw is so fast you absolutely can't react to DI, so it's a gamble, which isn't great.

Generally u-throw is best, it can give you great stuff like shine-bair, u-air, platform techchase, as long as they don't have godlike DI.
F-throw is very useful for stage position/ throw him offstage. You won't get a follow up if they tech away, but you can react to punish missed tech / in place / tech in if you position yourself in between, and shoot a safe laser to pressure him if tech away.

D-throw and b-throw are jank moves. Good DI will beat them clean all the time.
I think they can only pay off when you're already pressuring / comboing them like crazy, like you see westballz do from time to time. By then their nerves can momentarily crack, letting you abuse something they could react to most of the time.

You're right about d-throw beiing better on platforms though. Less room to get away.
Can fox jump out or escape an U-throw follow up at certain percents? If so would that mean D-throw has a better chance at follow-ups than an U-throw at this percent?
 

Pops1086

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I'm unsure of the %'s but doesn't falco have guaranteed follow ups on fox at lowish percents off Dthrow? like shine on di in or grab/dtilt on di out?
Whenever I use D-throw against fox I noticed that under 40% both falco and fox can challenge each other with a shine, so it is all about being faster. Above 40% though, fox is usually knocked slightly out of falco's shine range so it is more difficult to follow up. I attempt to read their DI, and you can follow up with D-tild or F-tilt if they DI in the direction falco is facing, or you can U-tilt if they DI in the direction you're not facing.
 

Pr0fessor Flash

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Did Armada just completely neglect to DI in this situation? I think that D-throw is a good mix-up near the ledge, because it can set up a really nice DI trap if the opponent is expecting B-throw or F-throw. This gfy is a perfect example of that imo.
Well you can tell Armada didn't expect the Down throw and it's solid for Grab mix ups in General. Zhu does it a good amount in a few sets (Zhu vs Chillin at SKTAR 3)
 

Klemes

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Can fox jump out or escape an U-throw follow up at certain percents? If so would that mean D-throw has a better chance at follow-ups than an U-throw at this percent?
So to be clear, yes, u-throw on fox is far from giving you garanteed follow ups. He can DI pretty far left/right, or no DI then smash-DI the lasers (super hard to read/react to for falco). That is why falco's grab game is kind of meh : grabs are easy to get, but hard to convert.
And yes, in certain situations (high %, on platform or against ledge), d-throw may have a better chance at getting you a hit than u-throw.
BUT when you d-throw fox (or anyone), you give them a chance to counter-attack, and potentially get a punish ON YOUR OWN THROW, which is very, very bad. Like I said d-throw has the best chances of working out when you're already comboing/pressuring them.

This is why I'd advise to use it sparsely.
In most cases u-throw : punish or take center stage to set up corner pressure.
f-throw offstage is good : laser to cover instant DJ then edgeguard.
 

RevySSB

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Falco is so fun now that i can combo round platforms but i feel like im not winning the matches i should. I always lose to people that are worse than me. I have a friend who plays marth. He doesnt wavedash in his neutral or never, but he know how to do it. He throws out tons of F-smashes all the time and i just get hit by them. I just hate the Falco and Marth MU because i cant win no matter what.

All they do is shieldgrab/grab me until im at 70% and then they just f-smash me.
 
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Bones0

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Falco is so fun now that i can combo round platforms but i feel like im not winning the matches i should. I always lose to people that are worse than me. I have a friend who plays marth. He doesnt wavedash in his neutral or never, but he know how to do it. He throws out tons of F-smashes all the time and i just get hit by them. I just hate the Falco and Marth MU because i cant win no matter what.

All they do is shieldgrab/grab me until im at 70% and then they just f-smash me.
http://www.sirlin.net/ptw-book/introduction
 

FE_Hector

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Falco is so fun now that i can combo round platforms but i feel like im not winning the matches i should. I always lose to people that are worse than me. I have a friend who plays marth. He doesnt wavedash in his neutral or never, but he know how to do it. He throws out tons of F-smashes all the time and i just get hit by them. I just hate the Falco and Marth MU because i cant win no matter what.

All they do is shieldgrab/grab me until im at 70% and then they just f-smash me.
If he "just throws out tons of fsmashes", just run up and WD back to bait him out. Lock him down with lasers... whatever you feel like doing.
 

Pops1086

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Does anyone have any tips on killing Sheik? I can combo her fairly well, but I always have a difficult time closing the stock because she lives to such high percents.
 

FE_Hector

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Does anyone have any tips on killing Sheik? I can combo her fairly well, but I always have a difficult time closing the stock because she lives to such high percents.
Is your issue more in killing her or in getting her off of the stage? I feel like you should be able to at least get her offstage pretty easily, but I want to know before I delve into an answer based off of an assumption.
 

Pops1086

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Is your issue more in killing her or in getting her off of the stage? I feel like you should be able to at least get her offstage pretty easily, but I want to know before I delve into an answer based off of an assumption.
My issue is specifically killing her. I am able to get her offstage easily, because I usually get a nice combo in, but once she's at higher percents she just flies offstage and is still alive. I feel like i'm just repeatedly fishing for strong bairs until she finally dies.
 

FE_Hector

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My issue is specifically killing her. I am able to get her offstage easily, because I usually get a nice combo in, but once she's at higher percents she just flies offstage and is still alive. I feel like i'm just repeatedly fishing for strong bairs until she finally dies.
It mostly sounds like edgeguarding her is the problem. If she has to use her upB in order to recover, then you should be looking for how she wants to recover. If she upBs high enough, there are vulnerability frames right before she fully disappears, so you can dair her then. Alternately, you can just stay on the ledge and opt for the simple "Press L/R" edgeguard if she has to go to the ledge. If she lands onstage, a simple ledgehop dair into bair should be enough to force her back offstage (the loop). Kills off the top through a shine into uair is a viable kill option when she's at higher percents (like 120%ish) due to the weird nature of followups at that point. You've just got to remember to employ a combination of edgehogging and aggresive (but safe) edgeguarding. It's difficult to maintain a good balance of them, but after playing against Sheik for a while, you should be able to understand how it all works. She's weird. I only know so much because my bro mains Sheik and we practice pretty often.
 

Pops1086

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If she lands onstage, a simple ledgehop dair into bair should be enough to force her back offstage (the loop). Kills off the top through a shine into uair is a viable kill option when she's at higher percents (like 120%ish) due to the weird nature of followups at that point.
How effective is using an f-smash or d-smash to punish expected recoveries? Does Sheik die from one move more than the other? It seems to be that when I edge guard her I just hit her to the other side of the stage and I have to rinse and repeat. Also, if Sheik beats me to the ledge is it just better to let her back on stage and apply pressure with lasers from a distance?
 

_trix_

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I'm currently writing an edgeguarding guide that I'll probably finish this weekend, but I have the sheik portion completely done. I'm better at edgeguarding marth, peach, and spacies than sheik, but my edgeguarding against sheik is still probably better than my combo or neutral game. Hope this helps-

Falco can't edgeguard sheik especially well, but edgeguarding her is especially simple compared to edgeguarding other characters with falco.


If they're below you.

If they don't have a jump, you can go out there and back air her before her invincibility starts(which takes 20-25 frames, but Idk exactly how long) .If she does have jump she'll jump fair you, grab ledge, then make you sad, so I would suggest not doing that, unless you have bigger balls than Evil Knievel. If you want a big punish off the standard grab ledge edge guard for sheik, you need to read. If you think she goes ledge, just hold on. If you think she's going on stage, you can roll, and fsmash her back towards the ledge. Otherwise you'll probably just get a dair/dtilt into combo or something. Also, if you snipe her really well with lasers, you will basically force her to go low to recover. Once you do that, you're option open up quite a bit. You can do invincible ledge drop double jump bairs and invincible ledge drop shine bairs. Sheik can do very little to stop both of those, so she'll probably recover really low, and will be too low to double jump up b down to the ledge, which means she'll be vulnerable if she tries to go ledge, so you can just stand on stage and dair if she goes ledge, and dsmash if she goes stage. Once sheiks realize that they're screwed if they go low, they'll go high and take the lasers. you can take away their jump with laser if you read when they do it, then can go out there and bair her.
 

Pops1086

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I'm currently writing an edgeguarding guide that I'll probably finish this weekend, but I have the sheik portion completely done. I'm better at edgeguarding marth, peach, and spacies than sheik, but my edgeguarding against sheik is still probably better than my combo or neutral game.
Thanks it was very helpful, can't wait to read the whole thing!
 

FE_Hector

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How effective is using an f-smash or d-smash to punish expected recoveries? Does Sheik die from one move more than the other? It seems to be that when I edge guard her I just hit her to the other side of the stage and I have to rinse and repeat. Also, if Sheik beats me to the ledge is it just better to let her back on stage and apply pressure with lasers from a distance?
Fsmash can work well, but be careful for crazy hitboxes. Dsmash can be effective as well, but solid DI works to make it risky. I suggested a move to pop them up followed by a dair or bair in order to get them back off or dead because I thought it was safer overall. Lasers from about a third of the stage away (on battlefield) should keep you safe no matter what ledge option she chooses. Against a crappy Sheik, you can just SHFF edge canceled dair to kill her. If she Shino Stalls, there IS a period where you can steal the edge, but it's ridiculously hard to do.
 

_trix_

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Pops1086 Pops1086 thanks! Btw, if anyone wants to help, message me. I really need help on ice climbers, puff, and samus, but help on any character is appreciated! Except falcon, I'm making that portion a complete joke rofl. Also, if any frame data guru would like to help with the frame data/reaction times necessary for the marth portion, that would be nice.
 
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Scruffy_Scoundrel

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Not sure if this was brought up but should we start a new Matchup Thread? Not to sound rude but the old one is outdated, incomplete, and not optimally formatted.
 

stabbedbyanipple

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My issue is specifically killing her. I am able to get her offstage easily, because I usually get a nice combo in, but once she's at higher percents she just flies offstage and is still alive. I feel like i'm just repeatedly fishing for strong bairs until she finally dies.
If she is at the distance where she has to Up B onto the stage but she can make it ambiguous whether she's going to land on the stage/ledge/platform, you want to time refreshing your invincibility (either by jumping or by doing a firebird/shine-firebird ledge stall if you're proficient at it) such that she cannot go to the ledge, and you can do normal stand up and react to whichever other option she picks.

If she is closer to the stage and can air dodge then you kind of just have to fish a lot of the time.

If she is far but high up such that she can still drift and make it back with some degree of ambiguity, you can full hop backward out there and "baby sit" as toph and scar have dubbed it (aka sitting in a safe position off stage where you can react and double jump punish some options and if they don't do those options, you can safely return back to stage).

Sheik's up B is harder to cover the closer she is to stage, but when you do this you force her to up B from farther than she would normally want to in order to stay safe from your double jump aerial threat zone

How effective is using an f-smash or d-smash to punish expected recoveries? Does Sheik die from one move more than the other? It seems to be that when I edge guard her I just hit her to the other side of the stage and I have to rinse and repeat. Also, if Sheik beats me to the ledge is it just better to let her back on stage and apply pressure with lasers from a distance?
If you're talking about just sheik, fsmash is only good for IMO covering double jump aerial back onto the stage if you read it, because it's an extremely lower percent kill if everything works out. Dsmash is used purely on reaction to cover sheik landing lag from up B. Against sheik i would very much not use them often near the ledge because if you get the wrong read or miss and she grabs the ledge, there's enough ending lag for her to start up a punish from the ledge on you.

Fsmash kills earlier obviously but is much harder to setup against her up B landing. With dsmash you can quickly walk to the other side of her and Dsmash her towards the ledge instead of across the stage. If she is at vertical kill percent then just dtilt, and there's not much she can do about it. Also, dair -> bair and dair -> uair are pretty good kill setups just about anywhere on stage

If sheik beats you to the ledge, unless they blow at shino stalling, it's better to just try to beat them as they come off the ledge with lasers/tilts/grabs/dash dancing etc.
 

L33thal

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Can anyone give me some advice or critique about this set? I going to a huge SoCal tourney tomorrow with a bunch of ranked players, I want my Falco to be as sharp as it can be. Any advice would be greatly appreciated.
 

stabbedbyanipple

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Can anyone give me some advice or critique about this set? I going to a huge SoCal tourney tomorrow with a bunch of ranked players, I want my Falco to be as sharp as it can be. Any advice would be greatly appreciated.
advice:

1. Don't run into me in bracket tomorrow

2. Go back and look at the combos you did to him, see where they end, and ask yourself if you could have done a different move or moved differently in that situation to extend the combo

3. You shoot a lot of lasers and zone with utilt/bair all day. These are good options and they stop fox from just walking over you but you're also only hoping for them to **** up and run into you. You need to take a more proactive role and try to catch Fox maneuvering around these zoning tools of yours.
 
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