PPMD's Falco Discussion Thread

[Bones0]

I never thought of this affect from lasering. If puff fairs instead of bairs is there anything falco can do to really punish it? or is the advantage purely from decreasing her range?

- Less range (easier to DD around)
- Less priority (bair is much more likely to trade with your bair and utilt)
- Lasts longer which generally limits their mobility
- Decreased strength (allows you to stay on stage longer from stray hits/trades as well as CC more effectively)

 

[RevySSB]

Does anyone have advice on how to properly play the falco ditto? I'm not familiar with defensive opportunities or even how to properly deal with getting lasered. I know the punish game is similar to playing against fox, but is there anything unique to playing against another falco?

Falco dittos are pretty much

''Who does this best?''

 

[Land0]

Does anyone have advice on how to properly play the falco ditto? I'm not familiar with defensive opportunities or even how to properly deal with getting lasered. I know the punish game is similar to playing against fox, but is there anything unique to playing against another falco?

If you feel like the other Falco has better movement than you, don't try to match their speed. Bait them into a shine OoS, or uptilt them to start a combo. If the other Falco is laser heavy, then avoid the lasers using platforms. If there are no platforms, then laser him back to let him know "hey buddy I have a gun too."

 

[L33thal]

Does anyone know what Falco can do against a good Marth that keeps dash dancing right outside your F-smash range? I'm always forced near the edge and if I throw out an attack to get stage position they wavedash back and grab. If I laser or bair, they find a way to get around it and fair or grab me.

Also what can Falco do against the Hbox ledge stall thing? I was playing a Puff in friendlies before a tournament and he kept doing that. The match went to almost 7 minutes and the other people left our setup. I tried overextending but got bair edgeguarded to death and this made me so salty before the tourney started lol. Is there anything Falco can do to counter this tactic?

 

[Rachman]

down tilt and lasers are good vs puff stalling. lasers can help deal with a fairing or dding marth

 

[FE_Hector]

Thanks a whole bunch !
Everything you said is pertinent and useful, but it's the thing about delaying attacks that I really needed to be reminded of. I recognized it a lot of times in mango's pressure for example. I understood what he was doing and why, but I never EVER did it myself for some reason... All I tried to do was to put them in the most shieldstun I could while exhausting myself on their shield.
I think I understand a little better now, like what PP said : no laser is just as threatening as laser spamming (which I thought to be stupidest thing ever not long ago).
Like always I was overlooking RPS dynamic. Everyday I play friendlies I realize I have the worst mental game of any one I ever played. Actually I'm so bad at it you could say I don't even have one, so the "better" players get free reads on me constantly and outplay me by a mile every single game.

I'm actually having the same issue you are right now with mental game, but I also know the cause of it. I KNOW that my neutral game needs a lot of work and that I need to work on getting my techskill down pat so it's autopilot. Once I do that, I can start looking more at my opponent and paying attention to their patterns. Honestly, that and knowing what your opponent is looking for are the two biggest things that go into understanding a MU.

 

[OninO]

Does anyone know what Falco can do against a good Marth that keeps dash dancing right outside your F-smash range? I'm always forced near the edge and if I throw out an attack to get stage position they wavedash back and grab. If I laser or bair, they find a way to get around it and fair or grab me.

Also what can Falco do against the Hbox ledge stall thing? I was playing a Puff in friendlies before a tournament and he kept doing that. The match went to almost 7 minutes and the other people left our setup. I tried overextending but got bair edgeguarded to death and this made me so salty before the tourney started lol. Is there anything Falco can do to counter this tactic?

Falco can do the same thing Fox (under Armada) does, d-tilt at max range.

Against Marth, if they're dd'ing outside your range and not commiting, laser them. If they react to your short hop with dash attack, then next time short hop and hang a nair or dair out (fade it for more safety).

 

[Klemes]

I'm actually having the same issue you are right now with mental game, but I also know the cause of it. I KNOW that my neutral game needs a lot of work and that I need to work on getting my techskill down pat so it's autopilot. Once I do that, I can start looking more at my opponent and paying attention to their patterns. Honestly, that and knowing what your opponent is looking for are the two biggest things that go into understanding a MU.

Well I also have a long way to go untill all my tech-skills become a second nature. I SD, do tech flubs, but like you said the worst part is that I need a LOT more concentration on just controlling my character than my opponents, leaving little mental ressources availible for observation, strategy etc.

My friend who plays shiek has mastered all the tricks he needs a long tome ago, and since he's been refining his spacing, techchases and edgeguards while I'm still there strugling with the execution of fundamental techniques. He also learned to recognize patterns in my playing, and I'm sure he could predict my response to anything he does better even than me. I really look forward to when the essential tech-skill learning is done (even if you should keep getting better and discover new tricks after that), so I'm free to actually start playing the game...

That being said, my combo game is finally starting to take shape, like I get 60/80% on them almost every time I get a good opening. Now I need to finish these combos in a stock or an edgeguard everytime and I'll be very happy.

 

[FE_Hector]

I'm a little bit past that. The problem is being able to make full jump WL shine or waveshining into second nature. IT's reallly just a matter of practicing. My punish game on Sheik's not bad though.

 

[methamphetamine]

Yo

when fox is close enough to make it seem very risky to laser, but you also can't tell if he is going to rush you down or not, what do you guys try to do? i have a few answers but i'm just curious

Old post but I thought it was a good question. I've thought about this a lot and I mix up between these three options and it works pretty well:

1. fadeaway dair

the dair stuffs any approach and fading away gets you far away enough that Fox can't punish your landing, I usually don't FF either so I can get the maximum drift distance and have the hitbox out for as long as possible.

2. retreating laser

pretty obvious one, although you risk giving up a lot of stage and you obviously can't do this if you are already cornered.

3. waveland to platform -> fallthrough laser

I love this option so much. basically, you want to get a laser out, but you're unsure if it's safe and SHL is a commitment right? so, do a very fast downwards waveland on one of the side platforms (you have to be directly under them) at the time you would've normally lasered. if Fox does end up rushing you down, you'll have avoided the attack (where you previously would've gotten hit trying to just SHL), and now you're above him in the perfect spot to fallthrough dair. if Fox doesn't rush down at that exact moment and continues dash dancing, you can fall through the platform and laser. basically it lets you work towards your original goal of wanting to laser Fox from that position, but also assess whether or not it's safe to instead of just guessing. and at the same time puts you in a good spot to punish if he does choose to rush down at that moment. makes it risk free.


Hope that was explained alright, try it out in game and let me know what you guys think

 

[FE_Hector]

@methamphetamine
I feel you gave a pretty good explanation, though I'd say you should play a little more aggro than that. Also, the better reason not to FF the bair is so that you get an AC bair. Granted it's really difficult to manage regularly, but it doesn't actually take that long to figure it all out.

 

[silentSWAG]

Hey pp. Do u have any advice on ending or quiting bad habits. Mainly out side of smash but in it too I guess for newer players. I know that a strong point in life is making ur weaknesses ur strengths. And in smash having good habits can mean the differnece since nobodybis able to focus for hours on end

 

[FE_Hector]

He's not been talking in this chat recently, but I don't think we've tried to get him to answer. Dr Peepee , thoughts on what silentSWAG (just above me) asked?

 

[Yung Scrap]

I watch top level players like mango and ppmd playing falco and notice that they use full hop fair at low percents and short hop fair as shield pressure. How come I was initially told that this was a bad move?

 

[FE_Hector]

It's only good under a few situations. For example, if you're in a situation where you could knock the opponent off with a full jump nair or reverse bair but the hits will still let the opponent recover easily and they're DIing in, then fair is a good option because you'll land multiple hits of it. I don't really know about for shield pressure because I'm pretty sure fair is negative on shield and has like 11 frames landlag even when L-Canceled.

 

[Klemes]

FH fair is nice to tack on damage with the multiple hits, since they'll DI in most of the time. Typically u-throw fair on marth (then fastfall and punish landing / DJ from marth).

Single hit fair can occasionally be useful to extend combos thanks to the weak hit, good front hitbox. Although weak bair will often do the job even better, because you can adjust how weak you want the hit to be (fresh bair or late bair), plus the significantly shorter landing lag. Westballz makes perfect use of weak bair if you're interested.

Fair on shield can never be good. It's 100% sure to be a mistake, probably instead of nair-shine.

So while it has its occasional uses, fair is generally a poor move, especially when compared to falco's super strong aerials bair, dair and nair.

 

[silentSWAG]

Its just because fair is slower than falcos other arierls. I dont think uair tho

 

[RevySSB]

Can someone tell me how Mang0 shines like that on the platform?
https://youtu.be/36JUiqRnrXk?t=34

Is it jump+airdodge down and then a shine? I'm having problems with shines on platforms and i really think i should learn how to do it

 

[MrYaah]

Can someone tell me how Mang0 shines like that on the platform?
https://youtu.be/36JUiqRnrXk?t=34

Is it jump+airdodge down and then a shine? I'm having problems with shines on platforms and i really think i should learn how to do it

hes doing jc shines into wavelands. so its. jump -> shine -> jump -> airdodge down onto platform. If by having trouble shining on platforms you mean you're falling through when you try its because you're pressing down while in stand still animation so its doing a fall through. In order to compensate for that you can either jump first, as you would in a shine out of shield, which adds 6 frames of delay since you have to go through your jump squat animation, or you can make sure you were holding down before you got into a state where you can fall through the platform. a good example is that it should be really easy to aerial -> fastfall -> shine on a platform without falling through since you will have started holding down long before you can fall through the platform.

 

[Klemes]

Can someone tell me how Mang0 shines like that on the platform?
https://youtu.be/36JUiqRnrXk?t=34

Is it jump+airdodge down and then a shine? I'm having problems with shines on platforms and i really think i should learn how to do it

These are shine-wavelands on platforms. You simply jump at him on the platform/slightly under the platform and shine him, then waveland on the platform. To do that, imediately jump out of the shine and airdodge down on the platform.

If you can't waveland on platforms yet, practice it in training mode. Do it on different stages as well, on side and top platforms, to get used to the different heights. At first without shine, full hop, then double jump when you're right in the middle of the platform and airdodge down. Then you can do it with the shine. FH - shine -instant DJ - airdodge down on platform.

 

[Agilao]

Does anyone here think that falco is the best in the game?

 

[EZPZ]

No I don't

 

[Agilao]

No I don't

even with fox?

 

[Klemes]

I think he might be the strongest character against most of the cast ,
but fox is also great at all the above PLUS he's a nightmare to , falco's weaker MUs.

So I'd say fox is still n.1 for the best overall match-ups, but falco could have an edge in a majority situations, including against fox.

 

[FE_Hector]

20YY boyz. That's our goal.

 

[`Rival]

Old post but I thought it was a good question. I've thought about this a lot and I mix up between these three options and it works pretty well:

1. fadeaway dair

the dair stuffs any approach and fading away gets you far away enough that Fox can't punish your landing, I usually don't FF either so I can get the maximum drift distance and have the hitbox out for as long as possible.

2. retreating laser

pretty obvious one, although you risk giving up a lot of stage and you obviously can't do this if you are already cornered.

3. waveland to platform -> fallthrough laser

I love this option so much. basically, you want to get a laser out, but you're unsure if it's safe and SHL is a commitment right? so, do a very fast downwards waveland on one of the side platforms (you have to be directly under them) at the time you would've normally lasered. if Fox does end up rushing you down, you'll have avoided the attack (where you previously would've gotten hit trying to just SHL), and now you're above him in the perfect spot to fallthrough dair. if Fox doesn't rush down at that exact moment and continues dash dancing, you can fall through the platform and laser. basically it lets you work towards your original goal of wanting to laser Fox from that position, but also assess whether or not it's safe to instead of just guessing. and at the same time puts you in a good spot to punish if he does choose to rush down at that moment. makes it risk free.


Hope that was explained alright, try it out in game and let me know what you guys think

yea all of these choices have their place, and i gotta mix em up of course

-retreating dair is great when it lands

-retreating laser is good, but i have to be sure of the distance between fox and falco because if fox can cover a huge amount of space before my laser comes out.

-waveland to platform-->fall through laser is also good as a mix up, but on its own i personally wouldnt attempt it without some information or conditioning. to each their own though right?

 

[Wald0]

I play a similar playstyle to Borp (spotdodging and tech-chasing centered) and I wanted to take up Falco. I was wondering if anyone has data on him in this area (possible moves to set-up for a tech-chase) my ideas are d-throw, nair, and dash attack. If nobody has any knowledge of this I'd be happy to lab with Falco for tech-chasing.

 

[Bones0]

I play a similar playstyle to Borp (spotdodging and tech-chasing centered) and I wanted to take up Falco. I was wondering if anyone has data on him in this area (possible moves to set-up for a tech-chase) my ideas are d-throw, nair, and dash attack. If nobody has any knowledge of this I'd be happy to lab with Falco for tech-chasing.

Most characters can just techroll away and Falco is too slow to punish unless he hard reads it or they are near the edge. If you want to play a character designed for techchasing, Falco is not a very good option.

 

[Klemes]

I play a similar playstyle to Borp (spotdodging and tech-chasing centered) and I wanted to take up Falco. I was wondering if anyone has data on him in this area (possible moves to set-up for a tech-chase) my ideas are d-throw, nair, and dash attack. If nobody has any knowledge of this I'd be happy to lab with Falco for tech-chasing.

I think d-throw is just bad. Sometimes you could get a surprise d-throw shine/d-tilt/d-smash, but actually tech chasing after d-throw is simply not possible beccause it's too fast, and your opponent can DI super far away, even without the tech roll. Aerials and dash attack are best at getting you a tech chase. When you do get a tech chase, I suppose the trick is when to keep going for another knock-down and when to punish with f-smash.

 

[Wald0]

Most characters can just techroll away and Falco is too slow to punish unless he hard reads it or they are near the edge. If you want to play a character designed for techchasing, Falco is not a very good option.

I'm all about hard reads (it comes with the tech-chasing) I'll just use f-tilt or up-tilt at low percents. If that seems okay

 

[OninO]

neither f-tilt nor u-tilt will reach hard DI and tech away on downthrow. I've experimented pretty extensively on a number of characters. F-throw never leads into a chaseable scenario in the classic sense, you can cover tech away with laser and cover tech in place, tech in with dair but that's not full coverage.

 

[Wald0]

Well then...I guess you can't do much on the ground with the bird...should've expected that.

 

[FE_Hector]

Well then...I guess you can't do much on the ground with the bird...should've expected that.

You can do plenty on the ground with the bird, it's just that his tech-chasing potential is pretty much 3/10.

 

[Alexander Duprey]

Old post but I thought it was a good question. I've thought about this a lot and I mix up between these three options and it works pretty well:

1. fadeaway dair

the dair stuffs any approach and fading away gets you far away enough that Fox can't punish your landing, I usually don't FF either so I can get the maximum drift distance and have the hitbox out for as long as possible.

2. retreating laser

pretty obvious one, although you risk giving up a lot of stage and you obviously can't do this if you are already cornered.

3. waveland to platform -> fallthrough laser

I love this option so much. basically, you want to get a laser out, but you're unsure if it's safe and SHL is a commitment right? so, do a very fast downwards waveland on one of the side platforms (you have to be directly under them) at the time you would've normally lasered. if Fox does end up rushing you down, you'll have avoided the attack (where you previously would've gotten hit trying to just SHL), and now you're above him in the perfect spot to fallthrough dair. if Fox doesn't rush down at that exact moment and continues dash dancing, you can fall through the platform and laser. basically it lets you work towards your original goal of wanting to laser Fox from that position, but also assess whether or not it's safe to instead of just guessing. and at the same time puts you in a good spot to punish if he does choose to rush down at that moment. makes it risk free.


Hope that was explained alright, try it out in game and let me know what you guys think

This is soooo good especially for someone like me that enjoys the corner

 

[SpiderMad]

I never spot dodge, should I make an effort to incorporate it into my game?

 

[Alexander Duprey]

I never spot dodge, should I make an effort to incorporate it into my game?

Well just like anything in melee just don't make a habit of doing it in the same scenerio

 

[Wald0]

You can do plenty on the ground with the bird, it's just that his tech-chasing potential is pretty much 3/10.

I was making a joke (I meant exclusively tech-chasing by the way) because Falco prefers the air...get it now?

 

[Wald0]

I never spot dodge, should I make an effort to incorporate it into my game?

Look up Borp since he has more videos of his using spotdodge well (replicate it if you can) though he doesn't have any falco videos you can still take notes.

 

[FE_Hector]

SpiderMad While spotdodge definitely has some utility for Falco (spotdodge shine, for example), you've just gotta remember not to rely on it.

 

[Klemes]

I never spot dodge, should I make an effort to incorporate it into my game?

spotdodge-shine is very good for spacies, plus it's like the only technique that doesn't require tons of tech practise. It won't be much of an effort to incorporate, and it def. is very useful. Do it to get out of tech chases, sometimes to get out of shield pressure, and to beat grabs.