• Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!

    You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!

PPMD's Falco Discussion Thread

MewtwoForce

Smash Cadet
Joined
Aug 28, 2015
Messages
51
Anybody here a whiz on movement mechanics? I'm interested in learning the fastest movement options/best methodology falco has to move around. If you could say what falco has to do in order to move as fast as possible, what would that be? Buffered wavesurfing? Do smaller wavesurfs make falco go slower?

Thanks
 

Nicholas1024

Smash Lord
Joined
Mar 14, 2009
Messages
1,075
Is there a good guide on the proper way to Dair-shine combo non fastfallers without the aid of platforms? Every time I've tried to pillar a sheik or peach on FD, they're always able to jump or nair out of the Dair's hitstun before I can land and shine. Is there a specific timing or hitbox that I need to be aiming for?
 

Bones0

Smash Legend
Joined
Aug 31, 2005
Messages
11,153
Location
Jarrettsville, MD
Anybody here a whiz on movement mechanics? I'm interested in learning the fastest movement options/best methodology falco has to move around. If you could say what falco has to do in order to move as fast as possible, what would that be? Buffered wavesurfing? Do smaller wavesurfs make falco go slower?

Thanks
You can't buffer a wavedash out of dash... There's not even a reason to because you can jump out of a dash at any point. The fastest way for Falco to move (other than ledgecancelling a Phantasm) is to dash then WD.

http://smashboards.com/threads/ultimate-ground-movement-analysis-turbo-edition.392367/

CTRL+F "collapse=falco" since the collapse tags aren't currently working on SmashBoards.

Is there a good guide on the proper way to Dair-shine combo non fastfallers without the aid of platforms? Every time I've tried to pillar a sheik or peach on FD, they're always able to jump or nair out of the Dair's hitstun before I can land and shine. Is there a specific timing or hitbox that I need to be aiming for?
Depending on a character's weight, sometimes it just isn't possible to true combo with dair shine. Using utilt is usually better for floaties because they don't get sent as high. Watch Westballz vs. Peach. He's played MacD a lot recently and does all the textbook elements of a good floaty punish.
 

Alexander Duprey

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jul 5, 2013
Messages
73
Location
Saint cloud, FL
3DS FC
1865-0311-7929
So we all know optimizing falco has to start with throws mainly because getting grabs is so important and kind of easy for falco, we need to know what we can get out of them. I think mid to high percent is really the only time it's applicable but I think tech chasing with fthrow can be better optimized for reactionary option coverage. Anyone have thoughts?
 

FE_Hector

Smash Lord
Joined
May 26, 2015
Messages
1,420
Location
Raleigh, NC
So we all know optimizing falco has to start with throws mainly because getting grabs is so important and kind of easy for falco, we need to know what we can get out of them. I think mid to high percent is really the only time it's applicable but I think tech chasing with fthrow can be better optimized for reactionary option coverage. Anyone have thoughts?
I feel like techchase fthrows would be super easy to escape on a lot of stages if your opponent just DId and techrolled away. I might be wrong, but that's just what instinct tells me. However, if your opponent is really good at surviving to higher %s, an fthrow anytime after 100% will send them super far off, which gives you an edgeguard when it doesn't flat-out kill them.
 

Yung Scrap

Smash Cadet
Joined
Sep 15, 2015
Messages
30
Location
Binghamton NY
Any thoughts on shine stall dair?
I just had this idea. After a full hop if your opponent is shielding under you, would it help to shine stall as a mix up to get a reaction then punish with a dair?
Also what is wave surfing? Is that a different term for wavedashing?
 

FE_Hector

Smash Lord
Joined
May 26, 2015
Messages
1,420
Location
Raleigh, NC
Any thoughts on shine stall dair?
I just had this idea. After a full hop if your opponent is shielding under you, would it help to shine stall as a mix up to get a reaction then punish with a dair?
Also what is wave surfing? Is that a different term for wavedashing?
The shine stall dair definitely could be useful as a mixup or as a defensive option if they wanted to get an easy follow up. Also, wavesurfing is dash -> WD -> dash -> WD, etc. It's Falco's fastest movement, albeit rather difficult to do at first. Just more Falco tech to learn.
 

mas_torque

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Mar 11, 2013
Messages
140
Location
State College, PA
AAAAAHHHHH HOLY **** BONES I JUST WATCHED YOUR SET WITH SMOKEY THAT HE POSTED ON FB GOOD **** DUDE YOU PLAYED THE MU SOOOO MUCH BETTER THAN THAT SET VS SG YOU SHOWED ME
 

mas_torque

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Mar 11, 2013
Messages
140
Location
State College, PA
I know the feel lmao i beat PSU's #2 on saturday winning games 2 and 3 after taking a quick 2 stock deficit both games, then lost to our #3 an ics because i got bored of camping and threw away a 4-2 lead game 3 lmao
 

TeeJay308

Smash Cadet
Joined
Oct 13, 2014
Messages
38
Location
Battlefield
Marth MU advice needed:

- Once I get Marth up in the air, how would I go about hitting him? Jumping up and trying to attack him didn't seem to work as his DAir or FAir seemed to beat my options. Should I just respect Marth and let him come down and put him in a pressure situation upon landing, or am I doing something wrong? Maybe I should bait the FAir or DAir with a SH and do a DJ as soon as I see him commit to an attack? (Although he usually only throws them out when I'm actually within his range, so I'm not sure if it will work against this particular Marth)

- Best way to start your combo against Marth? DAir to waveshine seems to send him waayyyy too high... especially if he DI's away. I experimented with jumping directly out of shine this morning, and it seems I get better combo opportunities this way if they don't DI away, so I guess that's the way to go? (I play vs Fox most of the time so I waveshine out of habit a lot) Some general combo/followup advice for Falco's throws would be nice too, since I generally don't get anything off my grabs against Marth.

Any other tips/tricks or things you do in that particular MU are welcome as well. I don't feel like I struggle in the Marth MU but my punishgame is not even close to the Marth I play against, so I generally lose my matches if he gets a couple of openings.
 

FE_Hector

Smash Lord
Joined
May 26, 2015
Messages
1,420
Location
Raleigh, NC
Due to his weight, the combo game on Marth is actually super fun. You can keep him low to the ground and just put on massive damage all at once with repeated nairs and utilts. If you wanna go for a pillar on Marth, utilt is going to be a way better bet than shine due to its lower knockback. Due to Falco's insane rising speed and the relatively slow dair that Marth has, you should honestly be able to get a pretty easy followup at 0% from a shine. If he's aiming for a shieldgrab and you have time to react to it, do LOW aerials on shield. He's easily tall enough to grab you if you don't.
 

TeeJay308

Smash Cadet
Joined
Oct 13, 2014
Messages
38
Location
Battlefield
NAir? Seriously? How am I supposed to follow up on a NAir? It knocks Marth too far away for good followups and doesn't quite have the knockback reverse BAir has, so I don't really see the point of using NAir in my combo game. I guess I should use UTilt more though, thanks.
 

FE_Hector

Smash Lord
Joined
May 26, 2015
Messages
1,420
Location
Raleigh, NC
At lower %s, SHFFL nair can go into another SHFFL nair. It's a bit harder for Falco to 'nairplane' than it is for Fox, but it's still more than possible. Anyway, nair is definitely a super useful move for more reasons than that.
 

MewtwoForce

Smash Cadet
Joined
Aug 28, 2015
Messages
51
You know, i've been thinking.I think the curiosity to pursue matchup knowledge is really good but specifically for low-mid level I don't think its that important to you yet.

All low-mid level tournament players have very poor techskill or some basic fundamental that is severely lacking that could be cleaned up with some practice. Most people in here talking including myself are low-mid level tournament players. At this stage if you're low-mid I think if you just focused on getting your techskill totally solid and second nature you'll be fine to beat much of your peers. Provided you also tweaked out the philosophy behind using it to have a good punish and combo game with it. You do this and you will go ham and run over low-mid level tournament players without needing very much matchup knowledge.

Hypothetical- Whats my falco matchup vs a mid level tournament marth? He has a 3/10 defense game, hes got bad movement from weak techskill, converts almost nothing off his opening hits and I have 7/10 shield pressure and 7/10 combo game. I think i'll be fine. I don't need special matchup knowledge here.

The Punish game is probably one of the most single overlooked things that could improve you. PPMD mentions it as very important and its something top players are known for but it looks like its hardly ever pursued as a lab goal from people or even talked about based on the results I see. Its like theres some kind of mental block or lack of awareness preventing people from believing they can, in tournament, grab huge chunks of percent off much of the cast consistently with falco off an opening hit.
 
Last edited:

Bones0

Smash Legend
Joined
Aug 31, 2005
Messages
11,153
Location
Jarrettsville, MD
Good discussion point. I'll lay out a few of my thoughts on focusing on certain aspects to improve.


Tech Skill

Obviously this is huge. If you can't do what you want, you basically can't even play the game. Someone who can't WD isn't playing the same game as someone who can, and are going to struggle as a result. Even someone who can WD but has to focus on it is at a severe disadvantage compared to someone who can do it automatically, without hesitation. People hear it all the time, but tech skill really is all about proper practice. I spammed buttons for years to warm up, but these days I have a disciplined warm up routine that I do no matter what. It sucks to go to a tournament and when I finally get there I have to sit and do a routine instead of start playing right away, but it definitely pays off. There's tons of different ways to practice tech, but ultimately you should be doing something along the lines of picking a single technique, performing only that tech 10, 20, 50, even 100 times depending on how much you're struggling with it, and also FOCUS. You need to force yourself to hone in on each individual animation, each frame. If you don't do that, your mind and body will not calibrate your muscle memory properly and the sloppiness will come out, if not during friendlies, then during tournament.



Neutral Game

There's a lot of optimization to focus on in Melee, but I think ultimately players should become comfortable in neutral once they have their tech down. I think it's the most abstract aspect of the game, so the earlier you start focusing on it, the better. What constitutes neutral is obviously a gray area, but essentially it boils down to things like stage control, footsies, spacing, baiting, mixups/RPS, adapting, conditioning, and so much more. While you may not get a ton of wins focusing on neutral at low level, especially as Falco who relies on his punish game way more than a character like Samus who usually tries to win neutral over and over, you will develop fundamentals that make it easier to improve in other aspects. It's way easier to practice your punish game when you're able to win neutral 9/10 times.



Punish Game

Once you feel competent in a certain neutral scenario, you can start to focus on punishing. Let's say you are consistently cornering your opponent or keep landing shinegrabs, but in both of these scenarios you don't get much, if any, percent. You can look at what hits you are getting and either work on improving your punish off of those hits, or readjust your neutral so that you can land an initial hit more conducive to comboing. Maybe you can win neutral spamming AC bair or reckless FH aerial through an opponent on a plat, but if you can't get a followup then maybe you're not really "winning" neutral after all. Overall, improving your punish game is difficult, but still relatively straightforward. You want to maximize your opportunities with damage, but also balance that with the next section.



Edgeguarding

Way too many people lose sets because they don't get the key edgeguards. Back in the day people always staged on stage and just attacked people as they tried to sweetspot and did their best to prevent them from getting off the ledge if they grabbed it. Today's meta is drastically different and an indirect result of the differences seems to be blurring the line between punishes and edgeguards. Players have to proactively cover multiple options instead of relying on simple RPS guessing, and closing out edgeguards means so much more in a meta where the ledge offers many options with actionable invul and punish games are harder in general. It doesn't matter if you can get someone to 100% and knock them off stage if they're going to recover, rack up the same damage on you, and then actually get the KO. If you have matches recorded or even just have a friend who can watch you play, keep track of how many edgeguards you capitalize on. If you're not sure what constitutes a recovery, I'd just say situation where the opponent has to up-B or airdodge to make it on stage or situations where the opponent goes into the side blastzone magnifier (though you can certainly include any off stage scenarios if opponents are frequently DJing to the ledge for free).



Matchup Knowledge/Style

Matchups are all about fine tuning your game to work around a certain character's attributes. There's so much to talk about when it comes to matchups, and I think it's harder to discuss than people think because of how differently everyone plays. While there is tons of value in learning how other Falcos approach a matchup, you have to be open to the idea that your own personal play might be styled differently. Take as much as you can from other players and learn how you can fit that with your own style. By style, I don't mean a bunch of tricks or habits you do all the time. I mean your mental game and the things you are naturally best at. If you look at Westballz, he's a combo monster, and he's developed his play around that. He plays in a way that forces the opponent to have a better punish game than him then beats them because they don't. That doesn't mean he doesn't do other stuff effectively like win neutral or adapt, but his punish will always be his bread and butter, the aspect of his game he can rely on when nothing else seems to be working. For PP, I'd say he relies on his neutral with laser and DD control more than anything. These are very generalized views of their styles, and you could go WAY more in depth about what makes Wes's punishes or PP's neutral so good, but ultimately you need to figure out what your strengths and weaknesses are so you can downplay your weaknesses and exaggerate the effect of your strengths. Once you do this, your approach to a matchup becomes more obvious, and it's way easier to take aspects of gameplay from other players and sort of plug them into your own gameplay.
 
Last edited:

FE_Hector

Smash Lord
Joined
May 26, 2015
Messages
1,420
Location
Raleigh, NC
Basically the way that I think of a MU is broken up into a few sections.

-What works or is safe? For example, SHFFL dairshine can lead to a lot of insanely good combos on Fox, who also struggles to punish it due to how quick it is, but a shine in general on floaties like Puff is kinda difficult to capitalize off of because it sends her so far up even at low %s.

-What should I look for in the neutral game/how should I capitalize on lasers? Against Falcon, lasers can stuff a lot of his options because he's so tall, but on Puff they only limit her movement a little bit.

-How can I turn my opponents' disadvantages into my advantages? Peach, for example, has a pretty bad DD and WD, so her evasive maneuvers require way more precision than Marth or Fox's do, so if I throw out larger hitboxes and capitalize, I'm generally better off.

Those are generally the main three that I look into, but there's always one thing that I try to keep in mind and improve upon: my weaknesses, whether as a player or as a character. People say that characters like Falco don't have a very good DD, and while that's true, not DDing because it's not up to par with Marth, Fox, and Falcon's is ridiculous. It's still an evasive tactic and it still disguises your purposes, so why should you NOT use it. Anyway, mixing up DDing and lasers goes really far to avoid going 'braindead' with lasers and always keeps your opponent on their toes. Another thing people complain about is Falco's recovery, so I elect to be a bit more... unique with my recovery options, often trying to make sure my opponent doesn't know if I'll sweetspot, head on stage, or take a crazy upward angle to grab the ledge while falling. Gotta make sure those mindgames are on point.
 

GenNyan

Smash Ace
Joined
May 12, 2015
Messages
574
Location
Florida
What are my best options to mix up a Sheik who's tech chasing me? I try to mix up the direction I tech as much as possible and stay away from the ledge in general, but I was wondering if there's any value in not teching (Getup attacks maybe?) to throw them off. Or will that just make it easier for Sheik?
 

Stalled

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Aug 21, 2014
Messages
129
Location
Voorhees NJ/Rutgers New Brunswick
The short answer is yes. Mixing up your techs missing tech, either to getup attack or delay your getup are all options. The sheik can react to your options but mixing them up makes it harder. Additionally, you should be mixing up your di as well as your techs (di out tech roll in, di slightly behind tech in place shine, etc). Mixing it up is key though, so you might want to explore other options as well (ledge stuff with missed techs, di back, tech in place buffer spotdodge, etc). There are really too many to list I would recommend exploring as many as you'd like.
 

L33thal

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Mar 28, 2014
Messages
131
Location
Monterey Park, CA
Is it better in general to approach with dair or nair? I know people say that dair hits shorter characters while nair has more range, but what if you're approaching let's say a Falcon and you want to pressure so that you land in front of his shield. Is there a "methodology" to this?
 

Bones0

Smash Legend
Joined
Aug 31, 2005
Messages
11,153
Location
Jarrettsville, MD
Is it better in general to approach with dair or nair? I know people say that dair hits shorter characters while nair has more range, but what if you're approaching let's say a Falcon and you want to pressure so that you land in front of his shield. Is there a "methodology" to this?
It's not a very simple decision. Here's some factors to consider:
- Spacing (nair has more range)
- Timing (nair is 1 frame faster, and might also reach the opponent 1 frame sooner due to larger range)
- Priority (depending on what attacks they might use, one aerial may be preferable over another)
- Followup potential (heavily dependent on character, percent, stage, positioning, conditioning, etc.)

Out of all of these, I think the possible followups is the most important thing to consider. Here's some pros and cons.

DAIR:
- Will combo well on grounded opponents (preventing ASDI down), but airborne opponents at low %s will ground cancel
- DI away can lead to spike KOs while DI in yields really good on stage combos
- Dair has less advantage on shield

NAIR:
- Will combo well on airborne opponents, but grounded opponents can CC/ground cancel
- DI away usually allows them to escape, but this can be used to condition them for things like waveshine fsmash (as seen in Mango vs. Ice in Big House's crew battle finals a few hours ago)
- Nair has more advantage on shield
 
Last edited:

mas_torque

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Mar 11, 2013
Messages
140
Location
State College, PA
My thoughts on stages goes something like

Fox
Strike to: FD, DL, BF
Ban: Yoshis

Marth
Strike to: Yoshis, BF, DL
Ban: FD

Sheik
Strike to: FD, BF, maybe DL or Yoshis
Ban: FoD

ICs
Strike to: BF, Yoshis, DL
Ban: FD

Against puff, i'm actually starting to like DL because she can't catch you if you play the runaway game and can stuff her with pivot or falling bairs. Yoshi's is good for early kills or gimps off the top but makes camping more difficult. BF is godlike because of top plat camp. Hard to say what to strike to or ban really. Puff is fake and bad lol

Peach I get no experience against so idk

Similar with Falcon but Yoshi's is too good
 

TeeJay308

Smash Cadet
Joined
Oct 13, 2014
Messages
38
Location
Battlefield
How can I improve my control over the backwards momentum and laser height when I'm trying to SH retreating laser? I've been maining Falco for a while now and I sort of neglected this part of my game and I noticed how many times Sheik or Marth players could dash underneath my lasers when I'm trying to do retreating lasers, and I sometimes just fly away too far getting my ass offstage... I'm not consistent with retreating lasers, but very consistent with regular or advancing lasers.

What should my inputs look like to gain better control over my retreating lasers? Should I instantly dash away, jump, flick control stick the opposite direction, let it return to neutral, press b, fastfall? and does it matter when you actually flick the control stick, like do you have to do it right before you press b, or can you press b at any time after the initial flick?

I was looking at a stream, and saw Baxon's Falco playing. What I noticed is that he had beautiful control over his laser momentum and was basically flying all around the lower half shooting lasers, and I want to get to that level too. I can approach people with lasers just fine, but I can't really zone them out all too well just yet, because I mess up too much. Hopefully some of you can give me some pointers on this so I can zone people out better
 

F1SHER

scrub
Joined
Oct 8, 2014
Messages
83
Slippi.gg
FSHR#913
ya practice a ton ofc. Try to jump in one half of PS's poke ball, fire a laser, and land in the other half facing the way you came. The inputs are dash back, immediately jump, flick stick for reverse, then b. After you press b you have the choice to either fast fall, or push the stick in the direction of your momentum to keep you moving backwards.
 

TeeJay308

Smash Cadet
Joined
Oct 13, 2014
Messages
38
Location
Battlefield
Thanks guys. I know it will take practice and I'm willing to put in the time. Just trying to make sure I practice it the right way so I won't waste time on wrong methods
 

OninO

Smash Journeyman
Joined
May 19, 2014
Messages
289
Just on what zubat said about pushing the stick to keep your momentum. I've never found that to be necessary, to get a max length retreating laser just hold the stick in the direction you're jumping for slightly longer during jump squat. I believe stick position on second to last jumpsquat frame is read for initial trajectory, so if you flick back after that then release you should be all set to fire a max length retreating laser.
 

MewtwoForce

Smash Cadet
Joined
Aug 28, 2015
Messages
51
Thanks guys. I know it will take practice and I'm willing to put in the time. Just trying to make sure I practice it the right way so I won't waste time on wrong methods
You are absolutely right in trying to find better ways to practice.Here is a link for you and everybody else here if you haven't seen it already. I personally think this belongs in a sticky somewhere.

http://www.twitch.tv/meleeitonme/b/471089168
https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/1so93m/mango_talks_about_improving_at_melee_from_the/

This is all about mango talking about how to practice and a reddit thread trying to reflect on the advice. This will be helpful to you in grasping the advice in the video. The most important thing I think I can tell you is This. Don't just watch the video. The knowledge must be used to be of any use. Write it down/type it out and plan to use it in your next training session. You want to either use the ideas or use them as inspiration or thought fuel for your own twists and original ideas or both.

There are other broadcasts like this from top players on practicing and youtube videos from top players on practicing. Before building your training routine I advise to read into all of their advice you can find to give you a better point of reference on how you want to proceed with your training.

Extra bonus- PPMD has a stream on twitch with past broadcasts saved of advice sessions hes had. There is a related PPMD video on the twitch page of the mango one as well. I haven't gone though it all yet but its been nice so far.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pvzUMBYz7EM
Youtube video on hand exercises for gamers. If you're getting into practicing for long stretches for the first time or at all then you definitely want to pick up healthy hand stretches and warmup prep before you play. I always play much better when I do the exercises in this video.
 
Last edited:

Klemes

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jul 4, 2015
Messages
236
Location
France
Marth MU advice needed:

- Once I get Marth up in the air, how would I go about hitting him? Jumping up and trying to attack him didn't seem to work as his DAir or FAir seemed to beat my options. Should I just respect Marth and let him come down and put him in a pressure situation upon landing, or am I doing something wrong? Maybe I should bait the FAir or DAir with a SH and do a DJ as soon as I see him commit to an attack? (Although he usually only throws them out when I'm actually within his range, so I'm not sure if it will work against this particular Marth)

- Best way to start your combo against Marth? DAir to waveshine seems to send him waayyyy too high... especially if he DI's away. I experimented with jumping directly out of shine this morning, and it seems I get better combo opportunities this way if they don't DI away, so I guess that's the way to go? (I play vs Fox most of the time so I waveshine out of habit a lot) Some general combo/followup advice for Falco's throws would be nice too, since I generally don't get anything off my grabs against Marth.

Any other tips/tricks or things you do in that particular MU are welcome as well. I don't feel like I struggle in the Marth MU but my punishgame is not even close to the Marth I play against, so I generally lose my matches if he gets a couple of openings.
You CAN pillar marth. Practice on FD on a lvl3 cpu.
dair-waveshine > DJ > dair > FF > you land before him for the shine, or up-tilt after like 40/50%.
then keep him up with nair or weak bairs, watch out for his DJ. If he does, he should be dead.

when you feel like you're getting consistent on comboing the marth, try setting up dair spikes to end your combos with explosive kills. a good one is the classic westballz weak bair > DJ-dair offstage.

hope this helps :)
 

EZPZ

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jan 18, 2014
Messages
92
Just got double eliminated in a tournament tonight by Falco ditto's. I don't know I just feel like I don't know how to win the laser battle. Like once I get a hit, I usually get a solid combo out of it. And my lasers and neutral aren't bad against other characters imo, I just can't seem to figure out how to not get out-lasered in the ditto. My Marth actually took a game off both players so I know I'm not just that worse of a player overall, so any tips for the ditto? Or should I just switch to using Marth against other Falco's since I've actually seen success there.
 

EZPZ

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jan 18, 2014
Messages
92
I mean yeah I started to do that towards the end and can do alright for now, but I would rather learn how to laser the ditto than just accept the L for long term
 

TeeJay308

Smash Cadet
Joined
Oct 13, 2014
Messages
38
Location
Battlefield
I hate Falco dittoes. Lasers are so cheap. :p

Winning the lasergame comes down to one thing: hitting the first one and keeping on the pressure afterwards. Falco has ****ty mobility, so naturally he has a hard time against lasers. If you are losing the lasergame you need to escape to platforms or do a well-timed aerial OoS to counter his approach. (basically what mas_torque suggested)

CC shine is also a big factor in this MU at lower percentages.
 
Last edited:

OninO

Smash Journeyman
Joined
May 19, 2014
Messages
289
So, I just discovered that B->slide to X for me is like 5 times as fast as B->slide to Y. Using the 20XX frame counter on my shine. At max effort I was averaging 4-5 frames to get out of my shine with B->Y, with B->X it takes me 1 frame or less (counter doesn't update, I assume that's 1-2 frames).

So if you're like me, and have kind of short thumbs, it might be a lot easier to do the left to right sweeping motion of B->X to exit shine than that bottom->top pushing motion of B->Y
 
Top Bottom