PPMD's Falco Discussion Thread

[`Rival]

When you guys do a run off -> dj dair dair or drop down as low as you can off ledge -> dj dair to land onstage what inputs do you guys use? I feel like I'm too slow with the C stick so presumably you should use the A button to be as fast as possible (since unlike instant SHFFLs you don't have the jumpsquat to make it quicker)? Iono it just seems like it's harder for me than it should be

I used to use the A button but now I claw and use the c-stick. I feel like i have slightly more control this way but its not too much of a difference

 

[OninO]

Try using tap jump, or yeah, use normal jump and stick+A button

 

[20YY SS | Saiblade]

When you guys do a run off -> dj dair dair or drop down as low as you can off ledge -> dj dair to land onstage what inputs do you guys use? I feel like I'm too slow with the C stick so presumably you should use the A button to be as fast as possible (since unlike instant SHFFLs you don't have the jumpsquat to make it quicker)? Iono it just seems like it's harder for me than it should be

You just needa get used to it. I use c-stick and it works perfectly. Practice your timings in training mode or friendlies or something.

 

[FE_Hector]

Side note: The programmers of Melee decided to be jerks by making the C-stick affect nothing except the CAMERA ANGLE in every 1-Player mode, so practice in Training Mode isn't possible if you use the C-stick.

 

[20YY SS | Saiblade]

Side note: The programmers of Melee decided to be jerks by making the C-stick affect nothing except the CAMERA ANGLE in every 1-Player mode, so practice in Training Mode isn't possible if you use the C-stick.

Lmao, SAKURAI WHY? I forgot, though, cause of 20XX.

 

[FE_Hector]

Lmao, SAKURAI WHY? I forgot, though, cause of 20XX.

For the same reason that Falco can't fly. As you aptly worded it, "Sakurai has betrayed us."

 

[Shchoo]

But guys, the 1-P glitch? Not like it's a complete pain in the ass to pull off or anything

 

[oliman]

I realize that often times falco can upthrow -> aerial or shine, as well as the utilities of the other throws. My question, however, asked if any of these followups are guaranteed. If anyone believes the followups (like upthrow -> shine) to be guaranteed, could they link the data/proof of it?

 

[FE_Hector]

I realize that often times falco can upthrow -> aerial or shine, as well as the utilities of the other throws. My question, however, asked if any of these followups are guaranteed. If anyone believes the followups (like upthrow -> shine) to be guaranteed, could they link the data/proof of it?

I know that a number of Falco's enjoy uthrow shine, but I don't think it's guaranteed. It's simply more than possible to land. They might still be in hitstun depending on lasers, but DI can have massive effects on their trajectory. There may be some guaranteed stuff off of other throws with weirder characters (I'm looking at you, Puff and Peach)

 

[Shchoo]

I know that a number of Falco's enjoy uthrow shine, but I don't think it's guaranteed. It's simply more than possible to land. They might still be in hitstun depending on lasers, but DI can have massive effects on their trajectory. There may be some guaranteed stuff off of other throws with weirder characters (I'm looking at you, Puff and Peach)

Speaking of throws and puff, is there funny business on the go with Dthrow on puff? Because I've seen so many puffs not tech it? Is it possible to tech?

 

[FE_Hector]

Speaking of throws and puff, is there funny business on the go with Dthrow on puff? Because I've seen so many puffs not tech it? Is it possible to tech?

I would guess that it's techable, but the timing's different for her. IDK for sure though.

 

[oliman]

That's what I'm trying to say. The Falco metagame is behind because we don't know what's what off of a throw. Look at Druggedfox's guide for sheik's throws: he explains what is guaranteed (fair) and what isn't (upsmash). I think if Falco's want to level up, they should research this topic. Perhaps Falco's throw game is better than we previously thought, or perhaps its worse. I don't think increased knowledge would hurt Falco, even if the latter ends up being true - knowing what is guaranteed is important, especially for the character that facilitates the most grabs in the game.

 

[L33thal]

Does anyone know where I can find simple frame data on shield pressure situations? For example, what Falco can do vs. Fox's OoS options (but generally for every character or every top/high tier).

When I tried looking at frame data threads I just saw a bunch of numbers with +/- signs and everything was color coded. Is there anything like:

Falco shine grab (x frames)
Fox shine OoS (y frames)

 

[FE_Hector]

That's what I'm trying to say. The Falco metagame is behind because we don't know what's what off of a throw. Look at Druggedfox's guide for sheik's throws: he explains what is guaranteed (fair) and what isn't (upsmash). I think if Falco's want to level up, they should research this topic. Perhaps Falco's throw game is better than we previously thought, or perhaps its worse. I don't think increased knowledge would hurt Falco, even if the latter ends up being true - knowing what is guaranteed is important, especially for the character that facilitates the most grabs in the game.

I'll attempt to try to find a way to look into it.

 

[Shchoo]

Good point, I have no idea what to actually do off throws. Not that I'm great at the game, but not even really a basic idea of what is possible, other than just, go back to doing what I was doing before the throw

 

[FE_Hector]

Time permitting, I proposed that the 20YY group look into each throw on each S and A tier character between 0 and 100% at increments of 5%. It's not a particularly difficult task, but ensuring that every possibility is tested will take a while. Also, IDK yet if my fellow birds in the 20YY chat agree with it. I don't see why they wouldn't, but I'm just giving you guys the headsup.

 

[L33thal]

Lol I don't know if this is a jank setup but against floaties or Fox at 50% and stuff I b-throw and immediately shoot a laser as fast as possible afterwards.

B-throw puts the opponent in a position where he can't hit you and he's at a good vertical height from the ground (basically in the air).
It also puts people in a position where they're not as high up, as with u-throw, so DI shouldn't affect things that much.

If they land, the following laser hits them or they have to shield and I can follow-up.
If they jump, I can close in on them and box them out or read their jump. Either way, I think Falco's jumps are high enough that he can "catch up" to anyone in the air.
If they get away, you get so much ground from this compared to f-throw because they're in the air and have to stabilize somehow and you have the offensive momentum for the same reason.

Don't know if this is legit or not, any thoughts?

 

[FE_Hector]

Honestly, that sounds like some pretty cool stuff right there. Bit of mindgames and a lot of covering options. Not sure if it's 100% legit or not, but you definitely reasoned it out well.

 

[Yung Scrap]

Any advice on when the best time to shine -> bair? When fighting fox at like 80% for example, I'll shine but he travels upwards faster and further making my bair come out too late to land.

 

[ChivalRuse]

Below 100% shine bair is easy if you just do the bair really fast.

 

[FE_Hector]

Shine bair (assuming you're airborne) is possible on Peach up to 576%. It takes super fast fingers to manage, but at any realistic %, you can land it.

 

[Yung Scrap]

Do you jc the shine with control stick up or by hitting y while holding the controller claw style?

 

[FE_Hector]

The only time I JC a Shine is when I Shine OoS, which I can do fairly consistently using just my thumb using Y and B. Took a lot of practice.

 

[ChivalRuse]

For aerial shine -> instant bair, the best method is to use up on the analog stick for your jump and the c-stick for bair.

 

[Yung Scrap]

For aerial shine -> instant bair, the best method is to use up on the analog stick for your jump and the c-stick for bair.

I have never considered Aerial shine -> bair, that's a great idea. Thanks for the advice

 

[L33thal]

Is it good to spam Westballz pressure or do you still have to do a lot of mixups?

I was watching the shield pressure videos from SSBM Tutorials and they really emphasized mixups. I was wondering if Westballz pressure allows you to do less mixups because sometimes I play really technical Foxes or Sheiks and they shine/nair OoS against me all the time even when I try to do late aerials.

 

[FE_Hector]

Is it good to spam Westballz pressure or do you still have to do a lot of mixups?

I was watching the shield pressure videos from SSBM Tutorials and they really emphasized mixups. I was wondering if Westballz pressure allows you to do less mixups because sometimes I play really technical Foxes or Sheiks and they shine/nair OoS against me all the time even when I try to do late aerials.

Technically speaking, I'm almost entirely sure that Westballz pressure isn't all that safe, but that's not saying it doesn't work well. I'd suggest shine nair pressure most of the time, but you've gotta do the nair pretty early and make sure it's SHFFL'd or else the pressure just falls apart.

 

[Land0]

Can someone explain/link a good video to SDI'ing out of combos? I feel like I've really built up my offensive game in the past couple months. I think I'm still lacking in fundamentals and living to higher percents.

 

[FE_Hector]

Alright, so I don't remember exactly which of the videos in the first post in the thread it is that explains all the different and beautiful kinds of DI that's been discovered in this game, but it should be a really good point of reference that covers everything you needa know. http://smashboards.com/threads/kadano’s-perfect-marth-class—advanced-frame-data-application.337035/ it may be video A3, but don't quote me on that.

 

[EZPZ]

I realize that often times falco can upthrow -> aerial or shine, as well as the utilities of the other throws. My question, however, asked if any of these followups are guaranteed. If anyone believes the followups (like upthrow -> shine) to be guaranteed, could they link the data/proof of it?

I'm pretty sure Falco's only guaranteed options out of up throw are against fast fallers at low percents: chaingrabbing, up tilts, shines, etc. At higher percents or against floaties you can sdi the lasers which makes it really hard to follow up. There may be some guaranteed things, but they would have to be reactions to their sdi I would think.

 

[OninO]

I don't think Falco has any guaranteed follow ups off any throw (research required), but frame guarantees aren't all that. For example, in my practise against 20XX Marth, he can jump out of up-throw at any percent before I can connect anything, but that's not necessarily a bad thing. If your opponent leaves themselves jumpless trying to avoid a follow up on up-throw, you're then free to juggle them almost at will.

Most human Marths won't jump out of up-throw and get faired, as explored by PP.

I agree that more comprehensive research is required, but I don't think anyone is going to discover anything except "windows of viability" meaning small percent windows when certain micro-combos are available. The real gold is any viable window which can set up into a kill move. I will pessimistically predict that there are no true throw->kill move setups. That being said, throw->offstage launcher (f-smash for example) would be almost as good.

I think the place to start, at least for me, is D-throw. It should be the simplest throw to eliminate. Does anyone have hard info on who can tech D-throw and when?

 

[EZPZ]

Pretty sure back throw to down air is guaranteed on Falcon at like 27% or something lol. So there's that.

 

[RevySSB]

I don't think Falco has any guaranteed follow ups off any throw (research required), but frame guarantees aren't all that. For example, in my practise against 20XX Marth, he can jump out of up-throw at any percent before I can connect anything, but that's not necessarily a bad thing. If your opponent leaves themselves jumpless trying to avoid a follow up on up-throw, you're then free to juggle them almost at will.

Most human Marths won't jump out of up-throw and get faired, as explored by PP.

I agree that more comprehensive research is required, but I don't think anyone is going to discover anything except "windows of viability" meaning small percent windows when certain micro-combos are available. The real gold is any viable window which can set up into a kill move. I will pessimistically predict that there are no true throw->kill move setups. That being said, throw->offstage launcher (f-smash for example) would be almost as good.

I think the place to start, at least for me, is D-throw. It should be the simplest throw to eliminate. Does anyone have hard info on who can tech D-throw and when?

Fox can tech D-throw.

 

[Bones0]

Fox can tech D-throw.

Not until 94% (unstaled, no DI).

 

[OninO]

Unless it's PAL, and then I think he can tech it always.

 

[Acorn]

Not until 94% (unstaled, no DI).

Wait, really? Why is this not used more?

 

[FE_Hector]

Wait, really? Why is this not used more?

Because he can still DI out of the shine follow-up, I'm pretty sure.

 

[Land0]

Do you guys think it's a good idea to explore other characters to prevent stagnant growth of your main? I've been considering this for awhile and I know there's a lot of mixed opinions on this but I want to know what you all think.

 

[FE_Hector]

Do you guys think it's a good idea to explore other characters to prevent stagnant growth of your main? I've been considering this for awhile and I know there's a lot of mixed opinions on this but I want to know what you all think.

Honestly, I'd say go with what you wanna do. I picked up Falco because I love his laser game and I think that, with time, I could be super good with Falco, as I know I can be with Marth. Every character has certain things they should and shouldn't do, or some things that aren't too explored, so really just do what you will. For example... I'm a huge proponent of a DDing Falco, which is something the current meta doesn't see too much except occasionally out of Westballz.

 

[OninO]

Land0 definitely, for example I love playing Mario because he's fun, but also he tempers my natural bad habits a little bit as he just doesn't have the options to permit stupid aggression like Fox and Falco. This helps me to be more aware of good spacing and what's actually involved in conditioning. For some reason the simplicity of his viable options make the conditioning game much more obvious to me.