PPMD's Falco Discussion Thread

[Hubkun]

@ FE_Hector @ Land0
if someone has a better DD than you, I wouldn't use it. In neutral, plug in as many lasers as you can, while weaving in and out.

1 always DD. If someone has a better dd than you then great, whatever. DD helps a lot with mixups and keeps the opponent guessing. All of the time. Try approaching marth with just shl and aerials. He will eventually catch up and kill you. E z. I was a heavy laser falco with no dd whatsoever. Now im a heavy footsies falco with little laser. Which gets me to a 2nd point. Dont. Spam. Lasers. When you spam, you have a pattern, and you're just saying "pew pew percent for you" the other guy sees your movement pattern and waits, spaces an approach or pushes you slowly to the edge and bam. Ded falco. Think of every laser that you throw, dd low aerial in>shinegrab>uthrow and bair, or bait a dj or an aerial, then bair or shine bair. Laser when youd aerial, making the oponent whiff a grab, and try to get a grab yourself, so that if he panic sheilds bc you were slow or slightly off in spacing, its still a followup.

Dont stop dashdancing just cuz its short.

 

[FE_Hector]

Conversely, make sure that you don't choke because you got stuck in DD and they got you with something. Retreating laser or bair can be really great tools, as can WD -> shine. I think that Falco's DD definitely could be useful, but as PPMD has said, you can't just DD to keep moving. If you're going to move, move with a purpose.

 

[bolt.]

1 always DD. If someone has a better dd than you then great, whatever. DD helps a lot with mixups and keeps the opponent guessing. All of the time. Try approaching marth with just shl and aerials. He will eventually catch up and kill you. E z. I was a heavy laser falco with no dd whatsoever. Now im a heavy footsies falco with little laser. Which gets me to a 2nd point. Dont. Spam. Lasers. When you spam, you have a pattern, and you're just saying "pew pew percent for you" the other guy sees your movement pattern and waits, spaces an approach or pushes you slowly to the edge and bam. Ded falco. Think of every laser that you throw, dd low aerial in>shinegrab>uthrow and bair, or bait a dj or an aerial, then bair or shine bair. Laser when youd aerial, making the oponent whiff a grab, and try to get a grab yourself, so that if he panic sheilds bc you were slow or slightly off in spacing, its still a followup.

Dont stop dashdancing just cuz its short.

To add to this I would like to point out that there are certain dash dance ranges that are really scary for the opponent. You can threaten laser, threaten attacks, hold your own space with bair retreat quickly and cover rolls in. If they start jumping you can read it and nair their jump out as well.

Butttttt you should always be aware if you opponent can handle lasers. If they get locked in shield every time just spam the **** out of lasers and beat them in their shield. ya diggggg?

 

[FE_Hector]

To add to this I would like to point out that there are certain dash dance ranges that are really scary for the opponent. You can threaten laser, threaten attacks, hold your own space with bair retreat quickly and cover rolls in. If they start jumping you can read it and nair their jump out as well.

Butttttt you should always be aware if you opponent can handle lasers. If they get locked in shield every time just spam the **** out of lasers and beat them in their shield. ya diggggg?

Another thing you can do with DD at certain distances is do the sexy PPMD WD shine combo starter.

 

[V_x_I_D]

Hey guys, I've improved a lot with my falco thanks to playing a lot and your help and I really appreciate it.
Here's my question though:

I went to a local in another city recently and I noticed that they played SO MUCH FASTER than what I'm used to.
This amazed me, I mean, I didn't go to the tournament expecting me to win or anything, but I didn't expect to see such speed and perfect movement.
How do I up my speed and be so precise?
Is it something that comes naturally or is there a way to actually get better?

 

[FE_Hector]

Hey guys, I've improved a lot with my falco thanks to playing a lot and your help and I really appreciate it.
Here's my question though:

I went to a local in another city recently and I noticed that they played SO MUCH FASTER than what I'm used to.
This amazed me, I mean, I didn't go to the tournament expecting me to win or anything, but I didn't expect to see such speed and perfect movement.
How do I up my speed and be so precise?
Is it something that comes naturally or is there a way to actually get better?

Put simply: practice practice practice. If you don't have a training partner, maybe go on your state's FB page and try to see if there's anybody you could go up against regularly. Otherwise you could shadowbox on lvl1/4 CPUs (ONLY FOR COMBO PRACTICE) because they have the most human DI out of all CPUs. Um, besides that just work on optimizing speed of everything. Wavesurfing (I'm working on mine but it'll help) and making sure that for an aerial approach you input the SH during the dash animation are 2 ways to really speed yourself up. If you could list out more specific problems I could be a bit less generic.

 

[Bones0]

Hey guys, I've improved a lot with my falco thanks to playing a lot and your help and I really appreciate it.
Here's my question though:

I went to a local in another city recently and I noticed that they played SO MUCH FASTER than what I'm used to.
This amazed me, I mean, I didn't go to the tournament expecting me to win or anything, but I didn't expect to see such speed and perfect movement.
How do I up my speed and be so precise?
Is it something that comes naturally or is there a way to actually get better?

 

[bolt.]

I've been doing this, but I go through certain laser motions before I go to general tech practice.
My falco adaption is:
- Dash Dance full range
- DD medium
- DD fast
- DD different lengths on the trophy stage side platforms
- Perfect wavedashes
- Perfect wavedashes out of different dash dance lengths
- Empty sh into wavelands
- DD wavedashing on the center of the the trophy stage
- Different laser heights in place
- Different laser heights and timings moving forward
- Different laser heights and timings retreating
- Dash forward dash back laser
- Dash back dash forward laser
- Laser wavedash back dash forward laser
- Moving around and lasering on a yoshis story platform
- 3 minutes of speed only using this
- Shield drop moving
- Shield drop in place
- Ledge dash
- Waveshines
- Platform movement using wavelands and edgecancels
- Shield pressure
- 3 minutes of speed again using everything

After this I usually work on tech I'm bad at for a while then do 3 minute matches vs cpus at max speed using the stuff I worked on.

I try to do this every day and usually spend an hour to 2 hours on it. It's helped a good amount so far.

@ Bones0 what would you add or take away from this?

 

[Bones0]

- Fox trotting (knowing when you can shine/utilt/forward dash again is helpful)
- WD FF onto the ledge (gives you crispy edgeguards vs. Sheik)
- Isai dropping between lasers
- Firestall

I think in general you should practice less sequences, more specific actions. As long as you practice your movement and lasers, you shouldn't have to practice "Laser wavedash back dash forward laser". You don't want to get in the habit of always doing that because you'll start doing it even when the second laser isn't appropriate. They are 3 different pieces that you should utilize separately.

 

[mas_torque]

I think figuring out the most effective movement to escape and get a laser out is ok but you have to be cognizant of the fact that everything has counterplay and mixups are key. Figuring out where mixups are possible/viable is what will push you further

 

[victinivcreate1]

So I'm trying to perfect my shine pressure tech skill and while I don't know the frame advantage of this manuever, I do know that a frame perfect Shinegrab will beat any frame 6 OoS option thanks to testing this in 20XX vs Sheik's Nair OoS and Falco's Shine OoS.

I can barely do shine turnaround grab but I want to grind this out. Whats the fastest OoS option that a frame perfect shine turnaround grab still outspeeds? If I do the frame notation correctly,
1. Falco shines a shield
2. Hitlag from frames 1-5
3. Turnaround on frame 8
4. Jumpsquat on 11? (Or 10?)
5. Input grab on 12 or 11?
6. Grab out on 18 or 17?

Meaning that Shine turnaround grab beats frame 10 OoS options? IDK

 

[mas_torque]

Shine turnaround grab beats them being scared in shield more than it beats options oos since they'll be rolling or wd oos unless they have that frame 6 option which will work since shine most likely won't be fresh

 

[victinivcreate1]

Shine turnaround grab beats them being scared in shield more than it beats options oos since they'll be rolling or wd oos unless they have that frame 6 option which will work since shine most likely won't be fresh

You misunderstood me. Basically I'm trying to get a frame perfect shine turnaround grab and I want to know what frame OoS option is barely slow enough to lose to it (as in a frame slow of outpacing shine turnaround grab).

 

[tauKhan]

You misunderstood me. Basically I'm trying to get a frame perfect shine turnaround grab and I want to know what frame OoS option is barely slow enough to lose to it (as in a frame slow of outpacing shine turnaround grab).

Excluding hitlag because it's irrelevant, the grab hits frame 13, and relatively unstale shine does 5 frames of shieldstun, so shine turn grab barely beats frame 8 OoS options because grab has priority over hitboxes. So you lose to most of the common fast OoS options including grab, spotdodge, jumps from many chars, fast upbs, fast aerials and shines OoS.

Shine has to have staling coefficent of <0,85 to inflict only 4 frames of stun, so in most cases, unless you've recently hit with the shine twice, it will do the full 5 frames of stun.

 

[victinivcreate1]

Excluding hitlag because it's irrelevant, the grab hits frame 13, and relatively unstale shine does 5 frames of shieldstun, so shine turn grab barely beats frame 8 OoS options because grab has priority over hitboxes. So you lose to most of the common fast OoS options including grab, spotdodge, jumps from many chars, fast upbs, fast aerials and shines OoS.

Shine has to have staling coefficent of <0,85 to inflict only 4 frames of stun, so in most cases, unless you've recently hit with the shine twice, it will do the full 5 frames of stun.

This is what I was looking for. Thanks bruh. I'll get frame perfect at this and move on with other semi useless shine pressure and make it useful lol

 

[bluesoup10]

So I was messing around on 20XX today when this happened.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KfREvOp-408
I'm wondering if any player could possibly be able to do this irl, and if so, is there anything to try and combat ridiculously good teching rather than just continuing to edgeguard? Is there a good way to space dairs so as not to let this happen?

 

[FE_Hector]

A lot of people can tech that well if they're expecting an edgeguard. Just SDI in and wall tech. Easiest way I could think of to handle it might just be for or dsmash, or just continually using the dair until they screw up.

 

[tauKhan]

@ bluesoup10 Those techs are actually super free, I consider it a huge mistake if you don't tech one of those. All the falco had to do is hold towards the ledge and time R/L within 20(huge window!) frames of colliding into the wall. You can just option select the tech input so that if you get hit, you tech, and if not, you just grab edge normally.

If they just go for an upb after the tech, you can usually finish them off, or repeat the tech situation. If they instead wall tech jump instant side b to grab the ledge, I think you're out of luck. The best way to avoid this happening is trying to hit them offstage or at least away from the wall.

 

[FE_Hector]

@ bluesoup10 Those techs are actually super free, I consider it a huge mistake if you don't tech one of those. All the falco had to do is hold towards the ledge and time R/L within 20(huge window!) frames of colliding into the wall. You can just option select the tech input so that if you get hit, you tech, and if not, you just grab edge normally.

If they just go for an upb after the tech, you can usually finish them off, or repeat the tech situation. If they instead wall tech jump instant side b to grab the ledge, I think you're out of luck. The best way to avoid this happening is trying to hit them offstage or at least away from the wall.

Can't you avoid it if you spike them from higher up, too?

 

[GenNyan]

I've got a quick question, does anyone who jumps with Y use the C-stick to AC bairs? I've been messing around with it, but I'm not quite fast enough. Should I just try to use tap jump or the A button, or just get faster moving my thumb?

 

[Bones0]

Can't you avoid it if you spike them from higher up, too?

They'll just DI on stage, but it will often work out if they DI in and tech because they'll techroll in and you can just fsmash or dash attack -> fsmash.

I've got a quick question, does anyone who jumps with Y use the C-stick to AC bairs? I've been messing around with it, but I'm not quite fast enough. Should I just try to use tap jump or the A button, or just get faster moving my thumb?

I can bair to the left by using the base of my thumb, but doing it to the right is still really awkward for me. There are definitely people who can do it though, at least well enough to get the AC. They might not be bairing asap though, idk.

 

[FE_Hector]

I use Y and then the C stick for my aerials, even ones that are ACd

 

[OninO]

I jump with Y and C-stick everything usually, but all my AC bairs are done using the A button. You can get full control over your trajectory, it just takes more quick movements with the control stick. As bones says, moving the base of my thumb inwards to bair left is an awkward motion.

Sometimes I will bair right using the c-stick but it's a sub conscious thing that just seems to come out when I'm moving really quickly.

 

[L33thal]

Can anyone give me advice? I just made it out of pools at the last Mayhem in SoCal but I still feel like my Falco's kinda scrubby, especially against Sheik.

 

[OninO]

You're pretty good dude, a bit better than me I think. Something I noticed is that you probably do "too much". I'm particularly thinking of when you have Shiek in a position of weakness you throw out moves "just because", those moves put you in lag and consequently you can't react to her option choices during recovery.

You're also closing off your tech-chase coverage too quickly. I don't know how to fix that because I haven't been able to fix it myself. If you can get to their tech point without committing to a move, or at the very worst laser on the way in, then you might be able to shine tech in place or nair most character's tech rolls, but like I say, I haven't worked through this. I find the difficult part of studying Falco's tech coverage options is finding reliable set ups for a tech situation. I mostly get tech situations out of an aerial, which always seem to result in variable spacing for me with respect to their tech point due to DI.

Finally, while it seems your tech is pretty on point or getting there, you're using it blindly. You're not doing things like trying to super crispy space a nair on shield then punish a grab. You're not really trying to bait for a big punish, you're going for the steam-roller option. That's fine if it works, especially in tournament as it's "brain dead" and consequently doesn't burn you out too early. But you should make sure you have that skill set in the bank. Start really experimenting with abusive spacing, low commitment moves and conditioning.

Edit: re conditioning, start trying to note opponents habits and even better try and control those habits then punish.

 

[FE_Hector]

You're pretty good dude, a bit better than me I think. Something I noticed is that you probably do "too much". I'm particularly thinking of when you have Shiek in a position of weakness you throw out moves "just because", those moves put you in lag and consequently you can't react to her option choices during recovery.

You're also closing off your tech-chase coverage too quickly. I don't know how to fix that because I haven't been able to fix it myself. If you can get to their tech point without committing to a move, or at the very worst laser on the way in, then you might be able to shine tech in place or nair most character's tech rolls, but like I say, I haven't worked through this. I find the difficult part of studying Falco's tech coverage options is finding reliable set ups for a tech situation. I mostly get tech situations out of an aerial, which always seem to result in variable spacing for me with respect to their tech point due to DI.

Finally, while it seems your tech is pretty on point or getting there, you're using it blindly. You're not doing things like trying to super crispy space a nair on shield then punish a grab. You're not really trying to bait for a big punish, you're going for the steam-roller option. That's fine if it works, especially in tournament as it's "brain dead" and consequently doesn't burn you out too early. But you should make sure you have that skill set in the bank. Start really experimenting with abusive spacing, low commitment moves and conditioning.

Edit: re conditioning, start trying to note opponents habits and even better try and control those habits then punish.

Someting I've fought about a little bit is how to tech chase with Falco. I'd say that, given the opportunity, his dash attack is probably his best tool that doesn't lead into another tech. Around 60ish I prefer to tech chase with dash attack because of the nice angle it sends them at. It can generally lead into something nice. Of course, if you use it early you don't get anything out of it, but I did say I'm working on it... I think.

 

[FE_Hector]

**Only double posing so it notifies people**

When Falco is coming back down after getting hit high up, what's his best tool for escaping? If your opponent gets right underneath you, lasers aren't a possibility, and I feel like sideB is a bit too punishable. My best idea was dair, but Sheik's uair seems to have been beating the dair most of the time.

 

[OninO]

Double jump mix ups, sideways drift and bair, fast fall timing mix ups, air dodge down (last resort).

Edit: Also, if you're way up, make sure you wiggle out

 

[orvs]

Can anyone give me advice? I just made it out of pools at the last Mayhem in SoCal but I still feel like my Falco's kinda scrubby, especially against Sheik.

alright so when you get the hit on her, you do fine. what i noticed though is that you don't take advantage of your lasers enough. don't get me wrong, your lasering is good, but in the first match the sheik avoided your aerials after your lasers quite often by shielding, rolling, and retreating backwards. You need to recognize her patterns and then punish her defensive options. at the end of the day you still won, but you can capitalize a lot harder when on the offence. also, you can grab the ledge from sheik while she tries to shino stall.

 

[GenNyan]

You can also try to reset the situation by going to the ledge, but don't do this often and be careful with it, because it can lead into edge guard situations if the opponent reads it or reacts fast enough. Oh yeah, and abuse platforms. Airdodges might work for some situations, but obviously are punishable. I wouldn't challenge the Upair too much, mostly I'd just focus on regaining stage.

Basically when you're above an opponent in a neutral state (Standing, crouching, etc.), you are at a disadvantage and should respect your opponents options (Given he has shown he knows all his options).

 

[Kopaka]

Can anyone give me advice? I just made it out of pools at the last Mayhem in SoCal but I still feel like my Falco's kinda scrubby, especially against Sheik.

That Sheik = Vomit

 

[Hubkun]

**Only double posing so it notifies people**

When Falco is coming back down after getting hit high up, what's his best tool for escaping? If your opponent gets right underneath you, lasers aren't a possibility, and I feel like sideB is a bit too punishable. My best idea was dair, but Sheik's uair seems to have been beating the dair most of the time.

Shinestall. Done. Hes going down and so are you, maybe you can squeeze a dair b4 his endlag finishes

 

[Hubkun]

Can anyone give me advice? I just made it out of pools at the last Mayhem in SoCal but I still feel like my Falco's kinda scrubby, especially against Sheik.

Stop lasering.
Seriously, you won on fd cuz sheik didnt know what to do against lasers, and on fod cuz sheik wanted the cheesy grab or dashattack + a million failed edgeguards. think on what that laser tries to accomplish, and accomplish it dammit. Laser dtilt, laser grab, laser shinegrab, laser pressure to fadeaway nair idk, stop mashing lasers. At one point youll get destroyed by a good wd oos player that picks up on your rshl, retreating rshl.

Stop using dair to hit the sheild, at least stop doing it so high.
SHINE GRAB
Dashdance. Please, this is so op with falco, since his rsh covers plenty of space and he can either space an aerial, overshoot it, laser, grab, or just bait a movement and punish with autocancel bair, maybe wd back shine if your spacing is good.

Practice conditioning and try to end comboes early (50-60) on an edgeguard. Uptilt fsmash on 50% is dope.
Your falco is ok, but work on spacing and smart lasering. A good samus, C.falcon or even a good tech chase sheik will wreck that laser heavy bird.

 

[Hubkun]

Also use grab more often. Uthrow>bair usually hits a
Sheik, and if not, scout the jump, then go fh dair or just empty sh (to bait jump) utilt when sheik lands. Idk.

 

[L33thal]

Thanks for the tips guys.

Something I noticed is that you probably do "too much". I'm particularly thinking of when you have Shiek in a position of weakness you throw out moves "just because", those moves put you in lag and consequently you can't react to her option choices during recovery.

Finally, while it seems your tech is pretty on point or getting there, you're using it blindly. You're not doing things like trying to super crispy space a nair on shield then punish a grab. You're not really trying to bait for a big punish, you're going for the steam-roller option. That's fine if it works, especially in tournament as it's "brain dead" and consequently doesn't burn you out too early. But you should make sure you have that skill set in the bank. Start really experimenting with abusive spacing, low commitment moves and conditioning.

Yeah, I've been thinking about this a lot. I came from SSB64 and played a Fox that spammed aerials, but I don't think I can get away with that in Melee. A lot of the meta in Melee seems to emphasize staying grounded and dash dancing a lot, imo. Also, I've been playing Melee for a year now and I still haven't gotten over bad habits from playing CPUs.

alright so when you get the hit on her, you do fine. what i noticed though is that you don't take advantage of your lasers enough. don't get me wrong, your lasering is good, but in the first match the sheik avoided your aerials after your lasers quite often by shielding, rolling, and retreating backwards. You need to recognize her patterns and then punish her defensive options. at the end of the day you still won, but you can capitalize a lot harder when on the offence. also, you can grab the ledge from sheik while she tries to shino stall.

Yeah, I noticed I struggle against defense. I don't know what to do when people are shielding, walling, dash dancing, or even when they're standing still expecting an approach. I watched SSBM Tutorials and all I could get was laser against defense or bait with fancy shield-stop u-tilts and stuff but I don't know how to apply those well.

Stop lasering.
Seriously, you won on fd cuz sheik didnt know what to do against lasers, and on fod cuz sheik wanted the cheesy grab or dashattack + a million failed edgeguards. think on what that laser tries to accomplish, and accomplish it dammit. Laser dtilt, laser grab, laser shinegrab, laser pressure to fadeaway nair idk, stop mashing lasers. At one point youll get destroyed by a good wd oos player that picks up on your rshl, retreating rshl.

Stop using dair to hit the sheild, at least stop doing it so high.
SHINE GRAB
Dashdance. Please, this is so op with falco, since his rsh covers plenty of space and he can either space an aerial, overshoot it, laser, grab, or just bait a movement and punish with autocancel bair, maybe wd back shine if your spacing is good.

Practice conditioning and try to end comboes early (50-60) on an edgeguard. Uptilt fsmash on 50% is dope.
Your falco is ok, but work on spacing and smart lasering. A good samus, C.falcon or even a good tech chase sheik will wreck that laser heavy bird.

I feel like I have no mindgames. I often sort of have an idea of what my opponent does, but I don't know how to deal with it. I also think I have to change my mentality for Melee from the SSB64 "Don't get hit" mentality.

Can anyone link me some good, specific matches that showcase good mindgames, mixups, and setups? Would really appreciate it!

 

[FE_Hector]

That Sheik = Vomit

Looks like you found the video

 

[Kopaka]

I feel like I have no mindgames. I often sort of have an idea of what my opponent does, but I don't know how to deal with it. I also think I have to change my mentality for Melee from the SSB64 "Don't get hit" mentality.

Can anyone link me some good, specific matches that showcase good mindgames, mixups, and setups? Would really appreciate it!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S0byg-S0D2U#t=7m40s PPMD vs M2K at Apex 2013. Watch until 7:56.

So I basically stole this from KirbyKaze's blog. "
He does both, but yeah
Mew2King is in a lot of trouble in that position
Because PP has set up a position where M2K basically cannot really effectively challenge PP for better position without making an insane read on PP's timing
This is because PP is using his lasers to discourage M2K from dashing in with grab on him, among other things.
Remember how both characters have goals?"

http://myneverendingbrainstorm.blogspot.com/2014/07/goals-in-ssbm-intro-to-player-vs-player.html

 

[Land0]

How do you guys practice efficiently alone without becominf robotic? I'm at college now and a lot of my practice time is alone against a low level CPU. I am able to play in tourneys once a week, but I want to make the most out of these by practicING and refining tech skill and combos. Sometimes I find myself on autopilot and thinking "would this really work against a human?" Sorry if my post is a little thought cluttered but my overall point is "how do you prepare for a human in the most efficient way while playing against something non-human?"

 

[GenNyan]

How do you guys practice efficiently alone without becominf robotic? I'm at college now and a lot of my practice time is alone against a low level CPU. I am able to play in tourneys once a week, but I want to make the most out of these by practicING and refining tech skill and combos. Sometimes I find myself on autopilot and thinking "would this really work against a human?" Sorry if my post is a little thought cluttered but my overall point is "how do you prepare for a human in the most efficient way while playing against something non-human?"

Read this PP post on practicing alone. Its long, but it'll answer your questions fairly well.
http://smashboards.com/threads/falco-discussion-thread.256826/page-439#post-14739329

Also maybe look up the Smash practice episodes (not highlights), they're a good resource, although it was originally streamed meaning its really long.
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCtGeosEjh8wfMZifNfhospw

 

[OninO]

Would love to get some feedback on the match here
http://smashboards.com/threads/the-official-falco-video-thread.168076/page-9