PPMD's Falco Discussion Thread

[FE_Hector]

Yo, I'm new the Melee scene so I guess I should introduce myself. Only about a week ago I decided to start practicing for real on Melee, so my tech skill is near non-existent but everyone's gotta start somewhere. I picked up Falco because he's just plain cool. His combos in my opinion are cooler than Fox's to watch and perform. I love hitting people with shines and soaring into the air to beat on them with his aerials and his tech wont murder my hands like Fox' does.

The only other character as satisfying in my opinion is Marth, but I've just been practicing with Falco non-stop so much I'm forgetting how to play Marth. Falco is just too much damn fun. So uh, hi. Sorry if this is the wrong thread to introduce myself in.

Lol, I personally don't mind. It's not like it was a ****post. Anyways, my biggest tips for scrub Falcos are to learn Wavedash (WD) into shine, Short Hop Laser (SHL) approaches, Short Hopped Fast Fallen L-Canceled aerial attacks (SHFFLs), and how to make sure your combos look epic and kill effectively.

 

[Frostav]

I'm currently practicing WD'ing, and I can do mediocre SHL's. I'm also currently practicing SHFFL's, I'm just doing a simple rep of 10 SHFFL's of one particular aerial in a row. It's really hard >_>That last bit's easy though--every Falco combo looks epic! Goddamn pillaring and JC-shines in general are so much fun.

One question, though: I always do normal jumps with X and Y, but I do JC-grabs with tap jump. I find it easier to slam the stick up with my left hand and hit Z with my right hand, where as using X requires me to awkwardly use two fingers. Is this a bad thing to do?

 

[FE_Hector]

I'm currently practicing WD'ing, and I can do mediocre SHL's. I'm also currently practicing SHFFL's, I'm just doing a simple rep of 10 SHFFL's of one particular aerial in a row. It's really hard >_>That last bit's easy though--every Falco combo looks epic! Goddamn pillaring and JC-shines in general are so much fun.

One question, though: I always do normal jumps with X and Y, but I do JC-grabs with tap jump. I find it easier to slam the stick up with my left hand and hit Z with my right hand, where as using X requires me to awkwardly use two fingers. Is this a bad thing to do?

Lol, if it works for you and you can do it consistently, it's not a big deal either way. I prefer to use A for fair and bair, but C stick uair and dair. It works, so it doesn't make a difference.

SHFFLing with Falco is, at least for me, a bit difficult due to my being used to Marth's slower fall speed. You'll get it though. A lot of stuff in this game becomes muscle memory.

 

[Frostav]

Lol, if it works for you and you can do it consistently, it's not a big deal either way. I prefer to use A for fair and bair, but C stick uair and dair. It works, so it doesn't make a difference.

SHFFLing with Falco is, at least for me, a bit difficult due to my being used to Marth's slower fall speed. You'll get it though. A lot of stuff in this game becomes muscle memory.

I use the c-stick for all the aerials (except nair, obviously). I'm slowly starting to get the rhythm of SHFFL'ing down--short hop, hit the c-stick/a button, then press down at the top of your hop and press L to L-cancel--but I can only do about 2-3 in a row before I accidentally full-hop. I'll just have to grind more. I find SHFFL-nair to be hardest since with the other aerials, I can slide my finger down to the c-stick with a sweep but with nair I have to take my finger off of X and move it to A. But hey, I'm a noob so no wonder I keep messing up all this stuff. I just gotta practice more.

 

[FE_Hector]

I use the c-stick for all the aerials (except nair, obviously). I'm slowly starting to get the rhythm of SHFFL'ing down--short hop, hit the c-stick/a button, then press down at the top of your hop and press L to L-cancel--but I can only do about 2-3 in a row before I accidentally full-hop. I'll just have to grind more. I find SHFFL-nair to be hardest since with the other aerials, I can slide my finger down to the c-stick with a sweep but with nair I have to take my finger off of X and move it to A. But hey, I'm a noob so no wonder I keep messing up all this stuff. I just gotta practice more.

SHFFL nair has actually been giving me some trouble, too, but just because of the weird wait timing between hitting and actually L-canceling.

 

[OninO]

Don't wait, practise inputting the fast fall the same time as the A button (actually 1 frame later) so that you're already fast falling before the hitbox comes out.

Edit: Same thing with Dair, input fast fall before/same/time/1-frame after you c-stick it.

Edit2: I find it helpful to build rhythm by just short hopping and then inputting the fast fall as soon as possible, then when you're SHFF'ing nicely, add the nair in just before you input fast fall.

 

[FE_Hector]

Don't wait, practise inputting the fast fall the same time as the A button (actually 1 frame later) so that you're already fast falling before the hitbox comes out.

Hitting and L-Canceling. If nair connects properly then it messes up his momentum so the L-Cancel is inputted too early.... unless I'm missing the fast fall. Lol I needa work

 

[OninO]

Then delay the L-cancel, not the fast fall input. If you try and time fast falling after hitlag, you're inevitably going to leave frame holes.

 

[FE_Hector]

that's what I said originally

 

[OninO]

My bad! Advice still holds though

 

[KPPAplays]

falco's wavedash is difficult to do someone give me some tips please

 

[FE_Hector]

The timing for the WD is a bit different for every character. You're either doing the input too quickly or too slowly. Honestly, just work on it. I can be more specific if you need it, but also maybe try with both L and R. I can't WD with R, for example

 

[KPPAplays]

The timing for the WD is a bit different for every character. You're either doing the input too quickly or too slowly. Honestly, just work on it. I can be more specific if you need it, but also maybe try with both L and R. I can't WD with R, for example

Thanks for the word man but the thing is i'm having trouble with the jump like when i try to WD i sometimes jump

 

[FE_Hector]

Full jump or just a short hop? If it's a full hop you're holding jump for too long. If it's a short hop you're inputting the dodge too early.

 

[KPPAplays]

thanks i fixed the issue i had >^~^<

 

[KPPAplays]

Can anyone link me to somewhere to find Gecko Melee code 1.2 Datel ?

 

[mas_torque]

Full jump or just a short hop? If it's a full hop you're holding jump for too long. If it's a short hop you're inputting the dodge too early.

How long you hold jump is irrevelant. If he jumps without airdodging, he airdodged too early. If he airdodges, he did it too late. You can WD without releasing jump and it will work identically to any other duration of holding jump as long as the period between jumping and airdodging is the same (5 frames)

 

[FE_Hector]

How long you hold jump is irrevelant. If he jumps without airdodging, he airdodged too early. If he airdodges, he did it too late. You can WD without releasing jump and it will work identically to any other duration of holding jump as long as the period between jumping and airdodging is the same (5 frames)

Can you really? I'd always heard that the SH was necessary, so I've always done it that way.

 

[mas_torque]

I'm >9000% confident the kind of jump you do doesn't matter if you do the wavedash perfectly

 

[Stalled]

Yea the kind of jump makes no difference, the jumpsquat doesn't change nor does the first frame you can airdodge.

 

[Land0]

I need a way to break down a wall. I've been practicing a ton this summer and I've noticed a lot of improvement but lately I'm stuck. I've been placing bad at tourneys, dropping games I know that I should win, it feels like my progress has stopped. Has anyone else felt like this? How does one overcome this and reach a new level?

 

[FE_Hector]

I need a way to break down a wall. I've been practicing a ton this summer and I've noticed a lot of improvement but lately I'm stuck. I've been placing bad at tourneys, dropping games I know that I should win, it feels like my progress has stopped. Has anyone else felt like this? How does one overcome this and reach a new level?

I've experienced this a lot both with my Marth and my Falco, and it's really about identifying your issues. A lot of issues will likely stem from either the combo game, reaction times, and/or neutral games. If you identify what you're having issues with, we can almost definitely help you out... unless you're just way above our skill levels and you're gonna upset Westballz lol

 

[Frenzy231199]

I live in the UK, in an area with no melee scene whatsoever. As a result I'm stuck practicing against 20XX CPUs. What I'd like to know is if there's anything that those CPUs tend to do which no real players would ever do against Falco, so I know more of what to expect if I ever play against real people.

Are you a part of the Smash UK Facebook Group? There are loads of events and fests that are posted in there.

 

[Land0]

I've experienced this a lot both with my Marth and my Falco, and it's really about identifying your issues. A lot of issues will likely stem from either the combo game, reaction times, and/or neutral games. If you identify what you're having issues with, we can almost definitely help you out... unless you're just way above our skill levels and you're gonna upset Westballz lol

I always need work on my combos for sure, but probably more than that is my neutral game, especially against Marth. One mistake and I'm dead. In the games I've been dropping, I've had a decent lead at the end but I can't seem to finish them off. Next thing I know I'm either sitting in Loser's or out of the tournament. So if I had to pick two things I thibk I need to work on it would be my neutral game and "Clutch" mindset.

 

[FE_Hector]

I always need work on my combos for sure, but probably more than that is my neutral game, especially against Marth. One mistake and I'm dead. In the games I've been dropping, I've had a decent lead at the end but I can't seem to finish them off. Next thing I know I'm either sitting in Loser's or out of the tournament. So if I had to pick two things I thibk I need to work on it would be my neutral game and "Clutch" mindset.

If you're struggling to finish them off, shine bair and a well-placed SHFFL nair should do the trick for you. I'm honored you struggle so much against Marth lol but remember to use a lot of DI mixups, not necessarily doing survival DI. Not DIing or even DIing away from the stage can be useful in a lot of situations, especially combo escaping.

 

[Land0]

If you're struggling to finish them off, shine bair and a well-placed SHFFL nair should do the trick for you. I'm honored you struggle so much against Marth lol but remember to use a lot of DI mixups, not necessarily doing survival DI. Not DIing or even DIing away from the stage can be useful in a lot of situations, especially combo escaping.

Yeah I noticed SHFFL nairs will give Marth's trouble especially when they approach. Do you have and advice on how to maintain good spacing? I was reading a guide not too long ago that said either stay far away or really close but not within tipper range which makes sense. I seem to have a lot of trouble make the Marth go where I want them so maybe I should work on lasers more.

 

[FE_Hector]

Yeah I noticed SHFFL nairs will give Marth's trouble especially when they approach. Do you have and advice on how to maintain good spacing? I was reading a guide not too long ago that said either stay far away or really close but not within tipper range which makes sense. I seem to have a lot of trouble make the Marth go where I want them so maybe I should work on lasers more.

As a Marth main, I always do. My biggest suggestion would probably be limiting options with SHLs until you're close enough that you're comfortable. Marth may be faster than you, but don't let up. You'll admittedly risk getting grabbed if you stay up close, but my Falco doesn't know any other way to fight. Never relent and stay super close to them and you should be fairly good. At least, that's what would annoy my Marth a good bit.

 

[Land0]

As a Marth main, I always do. My biggest suggestion would probably be limiting options with SHLs until you're close enough that you're comfortable. Marth may be faster than you, but don't let up. You'll admittedly risk getting grabbed if you stay up close, but my Falco doesn't know any other way to fight. Never relent and stay super close to them and you should be fairly good. At least, that's what would annoy my Marth a good bit.

Thanks I'm gonna try and implement this. Do you have any tips for working on neutral game in general?

 

[FE_Hector]

Thanks I'm gonna try and implement this. Do you have any tips for working on neutral game in general?

Keep your eyes open for any shenanigans, utilize WD to take advantage of micro-situations (maybe WD back to avoid a grab, which most Marth's should space in order to have minimal risk), and do your best to keep them locked down with lasers. I wouldn't recommend overusing lasers, but if they like jumping you could place lasers at a height that discourages that. Pay attention to the playstyle of your opponent. @ 20YY SS | Saiblade anything I forgot/was horribly wrong about?

 

[20YY SS | Saiblade]

@ FE_Hector @ Land0
Against Marth, you either want to be far away, or in his face, messing him up. Always Laser, there is no reason not to when it's safe. Keep in mind you have a plethora of approaches that are a lot faster than things Marth can deal with. You always want Marth locked down, or you comboing him, you have good approaches and an amazing combo game, use it. Something to think about, if it's safe to shoot a laser, do it, it limits options and can't hurt. Also, if they like full hops you can DJDL, or FHTL to lock down anything they can throw at you. One last thing, if they're an overly aggro Marth, try to wall them out. Falco has great walling options, including but not limited to, lasers, utilt, ac bair, etc.

Neutral game-wise, there's little that can go wrong, as Falco has some of the best tools in the neutral. While your DD isn't great, you can use it, but generally, if someone has a better DD than you, I wouldn't use it. In neutral, plug in as many lasers as you can, while weaving in and out. Great approaches to neutral include but again are not limited to, laser jab, laser grab, laser shine, laser nair, etc. Good luck on learning Falco, I love to see people maining the bird. If you ever have any random questions, feel free to add me on skype at Beywars.

Also, why does this thread never alert me of messages? xD

 

[FE_Hector]

@ FE_Hector @ Land0
Against Marth, you either want to be far away, or in his face, messing him up. Always Laser, there is no reason not to when it's safe. Keep in mind you have a plethora of approaches that are a lot faster than things Marth can deal with. You always want Marth locked down, or you comboing him, you have good approaches and an amazing combo game, use it. Something to think about, if it's safe to shoot a laser, do it, it limits options and can't hurt. Also, if they like full hops you can DJDL, or FHTL to lock down anything they can throw at you. One last thing, if they're an overly aggro Marth, try to wall them out. Falco has great walling options, including but not limited to, lasers, utilt, ac bair, etc.

Neutral game-wise, there's little that can go wrong, as Falco has some of the best tools in the neutral. While your DD isn't great, you can use it, but generally, if someone has a better DD than you, I wouldn't use it. In neutral, plug in as many lasers as you can, while weaving in and out. Great approaches to neutral include but again are not limited to, laser jab, laser grab, laser shine, laser nair, etc. Good luck on learning Falco, I love to see people maining the bird. If you ever have any random questions, feel free to add me on skype at Beywars.

Also, why does this thread never alert me of messages? xD

Maybe it hates you, IDK. I figured I'd ask you directly, though. Out of curiosity, though, DJDL would be Double Jump Double Laser, but you have FHTL listed... wouldn't that be Full Hop Triple Laser? That seems odd at first glance.... and second

 

[20YY SS | Saiblade]

Maybe it hates you, IDK. I figured I'd ask you directly, though. Out of curiosity, though, DJDL would be Double Jump Double Laser, but you have FHTL listed... wouldn't that be Full Hop Triple Laser? That seems odd at first glance.... and second

Yep, those are both a thing, they cover different heights, and places.

 

[Land0]

@ FE_Hector @ Land0
Against Marth, you either want to be far away, or in his face, messing him up. Always Laser, there is no reason not to when it's safe. Keep in mind you have a plethora of approaches that are a lot faster than things Marth can deal with. You always want Marth locked down, or you comboing him, you have good approaches and an amazing combo game, use it. Something to think about, if it's safe to shoot a laser, do it, it limits options and can't hurt. Also, if they like full hops you can DJDL, or FHTL to lock down anything they can throw at you. One last thing, if they're an overly aggro Marth, try to wall them out. Falco has great walling options, including but not limited to, lasers, utilt, ac bair, etc.

Neutral game-wise, there's little that can go wrong, as Falco has some of the best tools in the neutral. While your DD isn't great, you can use it, but generally, if someone has a better DD than you, I wouldn't use it. In neutral, plug in as many lasers as you can, while weaving in and out. Great approaches to neutral include but again are not limited to, laser jab, laser grab, laser shine, laser nair, etc. Good luck on learning Falco, I love to see people maining the bird. If you ever have any random questions, feel free to add me on skype at Beywars.

Also, why does this thread never alert me of messages? xD

Thanks!

 

[Rachman]

1. Is laser jab primarily used to catch a jump OOS or set up for a meatier move against a floaty?

2. When comboing sheik/marth, if I shine them with relatively no DI is it necessarily better to try to get a soft dair into shine to continue the combo over something like 4 hits of fair? Specifically thinking when you would land right after the move ends on a top plat or something so you can immediately turnaround utilt. Any tips on comboing non fast fallers would be great as I very rarely get/try standard pillars against them (more fair, utilt, some dairs/uairs, weak bair/Nair).

3. Staying mobile and dash dancing is something most Falcos struggle with, instead relying on lasers. Is this heavy movement approach good vs every char? What is a good mindset towards moving in between lasers? Should I be mostly trying to avoid being rhythmic/overly predictable or is there a more specific purpose? At the very least, what is your personal mindset and goals with your movement?

Hope this wasn't too long to get any response from PP lol

 

[20YY SS | Saiblade]

1. Is laser jab primarily used to catch a jump OOS or set up for a meatier move against a floaty?

2. When comboing sheik/marth, if I shine them with relatively no DI is it necessarily better to try to get a soft dair into shine to continue the combo over something like 4 hits of fair? Specifically thinking when you would land right after the move ends on a top plat or something so you can immediately turnaround utilt. Any tips on comboing non fast fallers would be great as I very rarely get/try standard pillars against them (more fair, utilt, some dairs/uairs, weak bair/Nair).

3. Staying mobile and dash dancing is something most Falcos struggle with, instead relying on lasers. Is this heavy movement approach good vs every char? What is a good mindset towards moving in between lasers? Should I be mostly trying to avoid being rhythmic/overly predictable or is there a more specific purpose? At the very least, what is your personal mindset and goals with your movement?

Hope this wasn't too long to get any response from PP lol

1. Laser jab is a great approach option, not just for those two things.
2. When comboing Sheik and Marth, if you want to continue the combo, use dair, if you want to end it, bair. (if we're talking out of shine). Your combo game on Sheik and Marth is pretty great, you just need to get used to it. You can pillar both Sheik and Marth, it's just different. I recommend you explore what you personally are able to do.
3. I'm a very laser-heavy Falco, so I'm not the best reference point, but if you're not lasering try to be comboing, or at least spacing your aerials as well as possible. Always try to be unpredictable. I want my movement to be as fluid and fast as possible, when I'm far enough away I mix in wavesurfing, wave landing, shffl nairs to keep my opponents away, and for me the obvious lasers.

 

[PCwizCube]

Don't wait, practise inputting the fast fall the same time as the A button (actually 1 frame later) so that you're already fast falling before the hitbox comes out.

Edit: Same thing with Dair, input fast fall before/same/time/1-frame after you c-stick it.

Edit2: I find it helpful to build rhythm by just short hopping and then inputting the fast fall as soon as possible, then when you're SHFF'ing nicely, add the nair in just before you input fast fall.

So I'm trying to SHFFL better with Falco and I am also not that good at it.

So you say that one should fast fall immediately after inputting an aerial. Does this assume that typically one should input an aerial when/after the peak of the jump is reached? So when I'm approaching somebody with a SHFFL, the go-to way I should do it is: short hop --> wait until peak of SH --> aerial --> fast fall immediately afterwards --> l-cancel?

Is that the way one should typically do SHFFLs? I know there are instances where you want to do early aerials (like fade-back SH aerial or cross-up SH aerial or autocancel bair) but should I be doing every other SHFFL the way I mentioned above?

 

[OninO]

I'm finding it difficult to put into words how you "should" time your aerials. The timing of connection (early to stuff/late to pressure/mid to cross up) will affect how you do your fast fall->L-cancel input.

Aerials are too complicated to say you should always do it a certain way. Watch Mango to see how something as seemingly innocuous as when to fast fall becomes an intense part of the mix up game (especially his Captain Falcon).

I will say, I have found it much easier to achieve tight pressure by inputting my fastfall "before" (at the same time or close to) as my aerials. Like I said in an earlier post, trying to reactively fast fall on hit-confirm will make your pressure sloppy.

Remember, this isn't street fighter it's an analog platform fighter, and analog means you effectively have a near infinite degree of spatial variation. For example, you can cross-up early-aerial from a tight position, landing far behind them. Or you can cross up from a far position, landing tight behind them, of if you aerial<->fast fall a little bit earlier you can land in front of them to start a shine->grab/shine->shine mix up.

Something helpful @Bones0 said was (paraphrasing) "Nair/Dair have 3 frames or more before they become active, so that's 3 frames in which to put your fast-fall input so that you guarantee it actions".

Second/final thoughts: It really only matters that the fast-fall executes correctly if you're trying to cross-up tight, or pressure from the front. Then you must land as fast as possible after connection. Otherwise feel free to vary up the timings.

Edit: Another one that crossed my mind, have you ever tried crossing up with an empty hop then bairing the back of their shield. That ones a cute mix up which assuming you've got them in shield in the first place might catch an "oh he's crossed me up, time to move" reaction.

 

[PCwizCube]

I will say, I have found it much easier to achieve tight pressure by inputting my fastfall "before" (at the same time or close to) as my aerials. Like I said in an earlier post, trying to reactively fast fall on hit-confirm will make your pressure sloppy.

Thank you for your reply.

Also, on the block of text quoted above, that method assumes that you have already reached the peak of your jump right?

I really appreciate the rest of your answer, it makes a lot of sense. I main Marth and know what you mean about mixing timings / spacings up when a character is pressuring their opponent.

I think the context I'm coming from for Falco is a bit basic though (my Falco absolutely sucks haha). I'm trying to master the basic technique of approaching with a SHFFL in front of someone's shield and not getting shield grabbed. Forgive me for such a basic question, but based on your previous postings I suppose you can't fast fall an aerial when you're in hitlag? I've found that I often fail to fast fall when I'm hitting an opponent, and I suspect it's because I'm inputting the FF during the hitlag. And that's why you said that it is generally preferred to input the FF right before the aerial even becomes active (as opposed to after the hitlag)?

Also yeah, when I SHFFL in front of someone's shield and try to shine right after I get shield grabbed before the shine comes out a lot. I think it's because I learned to Falco SHFFL by immediate dair/nair and then fastfall several frames after (during the peak of my jump, when I'm usually in hitlag). I know rising SH aerials are nono for trying to pressure someone's shield (right in front of it) and being able to shine right after without being punished (in a general sense).

So I know that instead, you should typically do a delayed aerial (for SHFFL safely in front of someone's shield). So in this situation, should the "late" aerial basically mean waiting to do the aerial at the peak of the jump and then immediate FF?

Sorry if this question seems so obvious. I suspect that's what you should do - in order to FF right after the aerial (as you mentioned), you have to do the aerial at the peak or after you reach the peak of your SH. I think I'm asking this question because it feels like waiting until the peak of your SH seems forever (especially since I'm a Marth main haha) but I guess that's not really a big issue if the opponent is already in their shield (talking about approaching with SHFFL, not talking about doing a 2nd aerial during shield pressure)?

 

[OninO]

Yep, the way I'm proposing, the earliest you could do the aerial and immediate fast-fall would be the peak of you jump. It's still possible (but difficult) for your opponent to grab an aerial that high on their shield. To guarantee not getting grabbed means waiting till you're about halfway down from your jump so the aerial connects low on the shield (mid point or lower).

You could fast-fall from the peak of your jump and input the aerial late, that will work equally as well and be even faster still.

It does feel like you're floating a long time before the hit box comes out, but like you've identified, it doesn't matter if the opponent is in shield (unless they have a very fast out of shield option that they're prepared to use pre-emptively, i.e. Samus or Marth's up-B).

 

[mas_torque]

I'm fairly sure you can input the nair just before the peak of your jump. There's a small buffer window for fastfalling, and your nair (fresh. stale nair and all dairs MUST be done later as they have less advantage on block) will be safe as long as you land one frame (+1 for dair and factor in staleness) before the opponent is able to start their grab as grabs typically take 7 frames and you have 7 frames of landlag on nair along with nair being +0 on shield. Maybe people act as though aerials must be done low to be safe, but this is not true as shine will beat out the grab as the grab comes out (duh). Low aerials are to keep the person in shield, whereas high and properally fastfallen aerials can keep you safe from grab. A benefit to doing low aerials is that they allow you to move after landing an aerial on shield thus making counterplay OoS more difficult as you give yourself room to hold stage and laser.