PPMD's Falco Discussion Thread

anshin · Jun 30, 2015

when you guys do shl/rshl do you 'guide' the stick, keeping your thumb on it or do you flick it and let it go? cause im wondering if its worth learning to guide it so i dont accidentally do reverse lasers but the drawbacks are that you seem much more likely to side-b if you don't return the stick to neutral completely before firing the laser. i just want to see what other people do before i get a new controller.

Bones0 · Jun 30, 2015

anshin said:
when you guys do shl/rshl do you 'guide' the stick, keeping your thumb on it or do you flick it and let it go? cause im wondering if its worth learning to guide it so i dont accidentally do reverse lasers but the drawbacks are that you seem much more likely to side-b if you don't return the stick to neutral completely before firing the laser. i just want to see what other people do before i get a new controller.

I had the same issue as you, and tried the same solution (resetting to neutral manually instead of releasing the stick). Imo, it's not feasible and you just have to buy a new controller. It sucks, but you can transfer all of your buttons and triggers into the new controller so the only new feeling you have to get used to will be the sticks.

EntropyAA · Jul 7, 2015

Regarding shining out of shield: How does the timing differ? Does it differ with each different attack that lands on your shield? Is the lag (that commonly results in me air dodging instead of shining) static or does it change depending on how much percent you have or shield size?

I'm trying to implement it more in my own game, and I understand that i'll figure out the timing thing as I use it, but I just don't want to feel crazy anymore whenever I feel like the timing is changing on the initial jump...

Stride · Jul 7, 2015

EntropyAA said:
Regarding shining out of shield: How does the timing differ? Does it differ with each different attack that lands on your shield? Is the lag (that commonly results in me air dodging instead of shining) static or does it change depending on how much percent you have or shield size?

I'm trying to implement it more in my own game, and I understand that i'll figure out the timing thing as I use it, but I just don't want to feel crazy anymore whenever I feel like the timing is changing on the initial jump...

It's dependent exclusively on the damage of the attack that connects with the shield; the formula for shieldstun (in frames) is: "floor((4.45 + staled damage)/2.235)". You have to delay the jump out of shield to account for the differing shieldstun between different attacks (while you could technically buffer the jump with the C-stick to always/easily get it as soon as possible, it would be pointless since you wouldn't be able to react to the timing of the jump with a shine).

You can calculate shieldstun automatically using this spreadsheet: http://smashboards.com/threads/tool...n-hitlag-shieldstun-calculation-v1-11.324878/

Bones0 · Jul 7, 2015

This is much easier to use if you just want an idea of how much shield stun a move is dealing:
http://smashboards.com/threads/frame-advantage-on-block.309694/

Ultimately though, you're going to want to FEEL the timings in game by trying to move OoS as fast as possible until you can't anymore. You can also buffer a roll by holding the C-stick to see exactly when shield stun ends, or you can practice attacking 20xx CPUs set to automatically grab and they will act on the first possible frame. With time, you will develop an intuitive sense of how much shield stun each move deals.

Basherton · Jul 7, 2015

Hi I'm mainly a smash 4 player who is interested in becoming better at and is relatively new to playing melee at a higher level. I recently started to like melee more than smash 4 and I main Falco (although my bio says otherwise) and I would like an experienced tournament player in illinois near chicago to train me in using falco. I feel I have a decent combo and air game while playing with the character but have trouble implementing other tech into my game such as wave dashing and di. I understand that this is a large task so I'm not expecting many people to want to help but thank you anyway for reading.

EntropyAA · Jul 7, 2015

Thanks Stride and Bones! I'll look into the shield stun calculator and continue trying to use it in game.

Bones0 · Jul 7, 2015

Basherton said:
Hi I'm mainly a smash 4 player who is interested in becoming better at and is relatively new to playing melee at a higher level. I recently started to like melee more than smash 4 and I main Falco (although my bio says otherwise) and I would like an experienced tournament player in illinois near chicago to train me in using falco. I feel I have a decent combo and air game while playing with the character but have trouble implementing other tech into my game such as wave dashing and di. I understand that this is a large task so I'm not expecting many people to want to help but thank you anyway for reading.

Head to the main Melee Discussion forum and search through the Facebook thread to find a group near you. You can also just try searching Facebook yourself for something like "Illinois Smash" or "Chicago Melee". Then it's just a matter of going to tournaments and finding people near you to play.

Basherton · Jul 7, 2015

Bones0 said:
Head to the main Melee Discussion forum and search through the Facebook thread to find a group near you. You can also just try searching Facebook yourself for something like "Illinois Smash" or "Chicago Melee". Then it's just a matter of going to tournaments and finding people near you to play.

Thanks for the advice.

Hubkun · Jul 8, 2015

Mindgames: I've been having trouble actually punishing people that fall into my mindgames/baits. For example, dashdancing under left plat of Battlefield, Marth commits with F-air from center stage, i dash left, WD back SH B-air, but he sheilds it, or i just dont make it in time, and he slips away. It happens with many baits i do using Falco's DD.

Bones0 · Jul 8, 2015

Hubkun said:
Mindgames: I've been having trouble actually punishing people that fall into my mindgames/baits. For example, dashdancing under left plat of Battlefield, Marth commits with F-air from center stage, i dash left, WD back SH B-air, but he sheilds it, or i just dont make it in time, and he slips away. It happens with many baits i do using Falco's DD.

The hard part about baiting people is staying in a position to punish quickly enough. You can't really say you successfully baited him if what he did is safe. For the specific situation you mentioned, I think the WD before the bair is unecessarily slowing you down. You should just dash back in with a nair. Alternatively, if you know you are going to be attacking too slow to catch them before they shield, you can simply grab. This isn't as strong with Falco, but still useful and you can instead initiate shield pressure to try to get better punishes.

TerenceLau · Jul 8, 2015

just wondering where, here or reddit, will i be able to get quality critiques of my tournament matches? (i don't have a reddit account and won't be making one unless i feel like i have to.) vs luigi and falcon for the curious.

Stalled · Jul 8, 2015

@

Bones0 In that situation, how do you feel about grabbing then fthrow to establish laser control, I've noticed that I occasionally have problems using unsafe options on shield and would like to better by grab game. Unfortunately outside of upthrow sffl nair on spacies I'm having difficulty capitalizing and am wondering if just gaining stage and laser control would be the way to go.

@

TerenceLau There should be a video thread somewhere on this subforum, it might need a necro but I'm reasonably sure it exists.

TerenceLau · Jul 8, 2015

but if i have to necro it then the thread probably doesn't have enough regular views or quality responses.

i am just gonna leave my links here. i suck but at least you get to watch great fundamentals by lugi ka master. any critique is welcomed and especially the forum regulars like bones and etc.

ka master (ws)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=boeEuOCulNc

falcon (wq, $10 mm then $5 mm)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FHzunLjZ0Xs
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7xJ91ceOGeI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PBJlUgffUYU

OninO · Jul 8, 2015

How about you analyse someone else's video then post your own? There are a lot of people asking, and not many people helping.

Bones0 · Jul 9, 2015

Stalled said:
@ Bones0 In that situation, how do you feel about grabbing then fthrow to establish laser control, I've noticed that I occasionally have problems using unsafe options on shield and would like to better by grab game. Unfortunately outside of upthrow sffl nair on spacies I'm having difficulty capitalizing and am wondering if just gaining stage and laser control would be the way to go.

@ TerenceLau There should be a video thread somewhere on this subforum, it might need a necro but I'm reasonably sure it exists.

DD grabbing isn't really feasible for Falco like it is for Falcon and the other fast top tiers. If Marth dashes back after the fair I'm probably going to whiff, and there's not much incentive to grab over attack in the first place. Fthrow specifically is pretty bad vs. Marth because he doesn't get knocked down very early. Fthrowing him away from me and lasering does pretty much nothing for me, it just resets to neutral. If I got a grab in neutral like that, I'd be looking for:

1. uthrow -> direct followup (FH fair is great vs. Marth specifically)
2. uthrow -> indirect followup (if they jump out or whatever, you can just wait and punish their fall since Marth really only has dair and counter which are both hard to use to get down)
3. bthrow -> gets him near the ledge, and you have decent frame advantage compared to fthrow because he has to float down a little (they'll often just panic fair which can be DD SHFFLed or you can run up and shield to punish with grab or dair OoS)
4. dthrow -> I don't really use this much because if they tech roll properly and you don't hard read it, you don't get anything. If they mess up by techrolling to the ledge you can just fsmash, and if they TIP or MT you can just utilt/dsmash/whatever.

victinivcreate1 · Jul 12, 2015

I understand that Falco's shine has 10 frames of shieldstun and 5 frames of hitlag.
Whats the first frame that Falco can jump out of shine after hitlag? 7 or 8? Or am I completely wrong?
Whats the first frame that a second JC shine would come out on? 12 or 13?
I read somewhere on Reddit that there's a jump buffer in Melee for jumping out of shine by holding tap jump. Is there really? And if so, do I just hold up, or does it work with X/Y as well?
I've tested Shine→Immediate Nair/Bair (frame 4 attack options) vs a Falco doing the Grounded Shine OoS in 20XX and I'm pretty sure Shine→Immediate Nair/Bair outspeeds it based on my results. Will Shine→Immediate Dair outspeed Shine OoS too? I can't seem to do it but maybe I'm too slow.
Last Question: Does the jump timing differ when your shine hits an opponent as opposed to a shield?

Stride · Jul 12, 2015

@

victinivcreate1 , you could conclusively test all of those questions for yourself; you don't need to be "pretty sure" or ask here if you have access to the 20XX pack, since you can use frame advance with that (or you could just look at the frame data).

victinivcreate1 said:
I understand that Falco's shine has 10 frames of shieldstun and 5 frames of hitlag.

It's 5 frames of hitlag and 5 frames of shieldstun.

victinivcreate1 said:
Whats the first frame that Falco can jump out of shine after hitlag? 7 or 8? Or am I completely wrong?

He can jump on frame 4 of the shine (i.e. on the 3rd frame after hitlag).

victinivcreate1 said:
Whats the first frame that a second JC shine would come out on? 12 or 13?

The second shine in a frame-perfect double-shine when the shine isn't stale comes out on frame 13 (counting the frame the first shine is active as frame 1):

victinivcreate1 said:
I read somewhere on Reddit that there's a jump buffer in Melee for jumping out of shine by holding tap jump. Is there really? And if so, do I just hold up, or does it work with X/Y as well?

You can buffer jump out of shine with tap jump; see this:

Kadano said:
Kadano said:

Upward control stick smash inputs keep their smash input properties for 4 frames. If the game checks for strong upward during these 4 frames and you keep the control stick held upward, the corresponding action will be triggered. This is what you call a hold-buffer.

This kind of behavior is universal, so it works for shine and landing lag (indeed starting on frame 1), shield stun, IASA and many other things, except SDI.

Click to expand...

Kadano said:

3 frames for dashes (and some other stuff probably), but for upward inputs to hold-buffer jumps, it’s definitely 4 frames. (Unless you don’t count the activation frame, which would make it 3 frames buffer.)
X or Y don’t (hold-)buffer jumps out of shine. Nor anything else, save some hitstun animations.

Click to expand...

victinivcreate1 said:
I've tested Shine→Immediate Nair/Bair (frame 4 attack options) vs a Falco doing the Grounded Shine OoS in 20XX and I'm pretty sure Shine→Immediate Nair/Bair outspeeds it based on my results. Will Shine→Immediate Dair outspeed Shine OoS too? I can't seem to do it but maybe I'm too slow.

Here are tables for shine to nair/bair (they both hit on the same frame) and dair versus shine out of shield; the first table is for on Fox, second is for on Falco, both are without staling on the shine (a stale shine would give 1 less frame of shieldstun and 1 less frame of hitlag):

As you can see, Fox has a 3 frame window to shine out of Falco's shine->nair on shield (4 with a stale shine; the far more common scenario). For Falco it's a 1 frame window without staling and a 2 frame window with staling. The windows against dair are 1 frame larger.

victinivcreate1 said:
Last Question: Does the jump timing differ when your shine hits an opponent as opposed to a shield?

The jump timing is the same whether you're hitting the opponent directly or hitting their shield. The 150% hitlag duration from the electric element only applies to the opponent, and then only when them hitting directly.

oliman · Jul 12, 2015

Is there an optimal way for Falco/heavies to DI Fox's uair? I've read KK's guide and all but I've also heard and noticed myself that if floaties SDI up and mash jump they get out of uair easier. There've been times when I've SDI'd down and escaped but I'm not sure if its legitimate or if the Fox was just too high up or something

Bones0 · Jul 13, 2015

oliman said:
Is there an optimal way for Falco/heavies to DI Fox's uair? I've read KK's guide and all but I've also heard and noticed myself that if floaties SDI up and mash jump they get out of uair easier. There've been times when I've SDI'd down and escaped but I'm not sure if its legitimate or if the Fox was just too high up or something

Your goal is to SDI so that you're hurtbox is no longer intersecting with the second hitbox of uair. How you do it will depend on their momentum, timing, and spacing. The only real differences between characters are hurtbox sizes making it more or less beneficial to SDI certain ways. Falco isn't particularly tall or wide so it's usually pretty clear which way you should SDI.

At0mic · Jul 13, 2015

I have a question about shield pressure. A lot of the time I see westballz or other falcos multishine on shield, they shine then jump in the air for a little bit before the second shine and then it looks like they waveshine down to the ground and keep pressuring. I was wondering, are they just being sloppy with their doubleshines, or do they do this intentionally? And if it is intentional, how can I get better at doing it, because I find it harder than just doing doubleshine ---> wavedash.
Here's an example of what I'm talking about: 2:04 ---> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=prEwbY4fyfw

Bones0 · Jul 13, 2015

At0mic said:
I have a question about shield pressure. A lot of the time I see westballz or other falcos multishine on shield, they shine then jump in the air for a little bit before the second shine and then it looks like they waveshine down to the ground and keep pressuring. I was wondering, are they just being sloppy with their doubleshines, or do they do this intentionally? And if it is intentional, how can I get better at doing it, because I find it harder than just doing doubleshine ---> wavedash.
Here's an example of what I'm talking about: 2:04 ---> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=prEwbY4fyfw

They are doing it intentionally, but it's strictly worse than just doubleshining on the ground so there's no real reason to learn it.

Hubkun · Jul 13, 2015

Bones0 said:
They are doing it intentionally, but it's strictly worse than just doubleshining on the ground so there's no real reason to learn it.

Why is it worse? I always thought that it held some frame advantage since you can jump on frame 1? I heard D1 and/or prog say that on a match. Correct me if im wrong :v

FE_Hector · Jul 14, 2015

Hey, kinda a weird question about the Sheik MU. My bro really likes using the Sheik uair any time that anybody is above him. With Marth, I can typically see it coming and dair him out of it, but I was wondering if Falco could essentially pull the same trick. Basically wait a moment before FF into dair in order to beat out the Sheik uair. If not, how else would you suggest slipping past a very aerial aware Sheik?

Hubkun · Jul 14, 2015

I

FE_Hector said:
Hey, kinda a weird question about the Sheik MU. My bro really likes using the Sheik uair any time that anybody is above him. With Marth, I can typically see it coming and dair him out of it, but I was wondering if Falco could essentially pull the same trick. Basically wait a moment before FF into dair in order to beat out the Sheik uair. If not, how else would you suggest slipping past a very aerial aware Sheik?

I think you can trade with sheik's aerials, except with a spaced bair? Dont quote me on that, you can find that answer on the matchup guides. But i prefer to either bait sheik with an empty hop, and when she commits, either move to top plat, or DJ dair if i have time. Or emptyhop and sheild, wait for sheik to hit, and shine out of sheild, bair or sheild drop, and put her on a bad position. You gotta analize how she reacts to missing/hitting you and find a way to punish or have the advantage.

FE_Hector · Jul 14, 2015

Hubkun said:
I

I think you can trade with sheik's aerials, except with a spaced bair? Dont quote me on that, you can find that answer on the matchup guides. But i prefer to either bait sheik with an empty hop, and when she commits, either move to top plat, or DJ dair if i have time. Or emptyhop and sheild, wait for sheik to hit, and shine out of sheild, bair or sheild drop, and put her on a bad position. You gotta analize how she reacts to missing/hitting you and find a way to punish or have the advantage.

I'll work on that last part. My biggest problem, I think, is that I need to work on my WD -> shield and baiting her out. If he would actually WD, it would be easier to bait him out, but if I WD, he typically just throws a lone needle so I'm forced to hop over it. Also, he doesn't like playing out of FD, so I typically don't have a chance to take a platform, but I will when I can.

Also, something that I just thought of, how would you handle her on the ledge? He's a big fan of fairing me if I try anything after getting near the edge, and that leads to a KO. Do you think jumping in a bit and then moving out to force a whiff would work?

Stride · Jul 14, 2015

FE_Hector said:
If he would actually WD, it would be easier to bait him out, but if I WD, he typically just throws a lone needle so I'm forced to hop over it.

Single grounded needle is rarely a good option; at long ranges the best it can do is interrupt the opponent a little and make them shield if they don't want to take the minor damage, and at short ranges it's unusable because of how punishable it is on shield or crouch-cancel. Not to mention that in this matchup Sheik has very little opportunity to throw grounded needles at all because of lasers (especially on FD). Multiple or aerial needles are considerably better, however.

There's no need to jump when you can just shield instead. If you shield a single needle anywhere within full forwards short hop range then you can hit them with pretty much anything during the endlag of the needle throw: short hop aerial, wavedash shine, wavedash grab, laser, etc. Even at midscreen you have frame advantage; you can laser and force them to shield or crouch, or you can just keep moving forwards or doing whatever you were doing before.

FE_Hector said:
Also, he doesn't like playing out of FD.

Spamming lasers will quickly change his mind about that.

Hubkun · Jul 14, 2015

FE_Hector said:
I'll work on that last part. My biggest problem, I think, is that I need to work on my WD -> shield and baiting her out. If he would actually WD, it would be easier to bait him out, but if I WD, he typically just throws a lone needle so I'm forced to hop over it. Also, he doesn't like playing out of FD, so I typically don't have a chance to take a platform, but I will when I can.

Also, something that I just thought of, how would you handle her on the ledge? He's a big fan of fairing me if I try anything after getting near the edge, and that leads to a KO. Do you think jumping in a bit and then moving out to force a whiff would work?

For the needle, pretty much what Stride said. Personally, i like to CC it, low nair>shinegrab. Nothing sheik can do. Or laser, depends on distance. Also you dont need to sheild to bait her, use movement. Like if sheik is camping the edge, like you said, laser out of the ledgehop fair rainge, WD in, fadeaway laser, and keep doing that until he commits, and you can either pressure sheild looking for a poke, or take the grab. You basically want to laser him until he feels trapped. Dont try to challenge sheik on the edge. Wait for him to wiff and punish how you think is best.

And a sheik on fd? Laser all day, combo all night. Fd is bad for sheik. Falco has all of the control, and the comboes can and should extend to edgeguards with pillar till mid%>uptilt>fsmash or soft bair>dair.

FE_Hector · Jul 14, 2015

Thanks to both of you. I'm pretty new to Falco, so that helped a lot. As far as his love of FD goes, he quite simply loathes platforms cuz he hasn't thought to work on his movement on them lol

victinivcreate1 · Jul 14, 2015

In the Falco ditto, how would neutral play out, laser wise? I typically shoot and then whether they shield or get hit, react on what happened.

Also how would back airs and up tilts work in the ditto? I understand that you up tilt when the opponent is descending w/ an aerial (up tilt>dair) and I know you can bair when the opponent has used their doublejump and is trying to land. Really how can I improve my bair and up tilts? I see a lot of Falcos using bair as a sort of anti air wall in the ditto, but when I try to use it I never seem to get the same mileage out of it.

When a Falco does an aerial and lands on a platform, is the best punish FH Shine-> Waveland? I see a lot of Falcos do that, but they don't seem to get much off it.

@

Dr Peepee ?

Stalled · Jul 15, 2015

Its very important to be able to move through lasers in the falco ditto. Meaning its very important to be able to wavedash oos. PPMD talked about it in the smash practice pilot, I'm unsure if it still exists but i believe it was linked somewhere earlier in this thread.

Hubkun · Jul 15, 2015

victinivcreate1 said:
In the Falco ditto, how would neutral play out, laser wise? I typically shoot and then whether they shield or get hit, react on what happened.

Thats good, but you got to be better than the other falco at movement. Like Stalled said, WD OOS is crucial since it throws the Falco's spacing off, pretty bad, giving you an oportunity to shffl in, or grab, maybe WD shine too. WD turnaround Utilt if you feeel cute :3
But on the lazers, placement is more important than quantity. You want to lock the falco and dont let him laser you/ get stage control. Neutral plays on who has better control, and who converts out of comboes better.
Also low laser>high laser approach is great since PS doesnt hinder your approach.

victinivcreate1 said:
Also how would back airs and up tilts work in the ditto? I understand that you up tilt when the opponent is descending w/ an aerial (up tilt>dair) and I know you can bair when the opponent has used their doublejump and is trying to land. Really how can I improve my bair and up tilts? I see a lot of Falcos using bair as a sort of anti air wall in the ditto, but when I try to use it I never seem to get the same mileage out of it.

When a Falco does an aerial and lands on a platform, is the best punish FH Shine-> Waveland? I see a lot of Falcos do that, but they don't seem to get much off it.

Utilts are wonderful for dealing with agressive falcos. What you want to do is bait him so that he commits to you with a dair or nair. Throwing out a utilt when you think he will shffl is good too.
You're probably doing a wrong followup, or the falcos di is wonderful, or too much %
when i utilt on the 40~% i like to FH shine>waveland on top plat and follow that di with dair or a shine>jumpcancel>instant upB>Swag :v it works and looks cool
but lets say you uptilted him under left plat, hes at 30% so he doesnt go so high, you should FH shine>waveland>position for an uptilt> Fsmash and set up an edgeguard, and since its falco, he ded. If he di's to top plat, shine again, waveland to top, either tilt fsmash, tilt dair and chase or shine upB for style points.

Bair is quite simple, either throw an autocancel fadeaway bair when he approaches or you feel he will, or when hes rushing you down, dash away> bair in place gets them. And if low % uptilt>combo.

I think i gave you enough platform options for when falco is up on a plat lol. But heres another one,
waveland>grab
simple and a nice mixup for the enemy that expects the shine and is sitting in sheild

Sorry for long post, hope it helped :v

FE_Hector · Jul 15, 2015

victinivcreate1 said:
In the Falco ditto, how would neutral play out, laser wise? I typically shoot and then whether they shield or get hit, react on what happened.

Also how would back airs and up tilts work in the ditto? I understand that you up tilt when the opponent is descending w/ an aerial (up tilt>dair) and I know you can bair when the opponent has used their doublejump and is trying to land. Really how can I improve my bair and up tilts? I see a lot of Falcos using bair as a sort of anti air wall in the ditto, but when I try to use it I never seem to get the same mileage out of it.

When a Falco does an aerial and lands on a platform, is the best punish FH Shine-> Waveland? I see a lot of Falcos do that, but they don't seem to get much off it.

@ Dr Peepee ?

No experience with the MU, but I think it would at least be funny to Shine the lasers back, if only to mess with your opponent.

Hubkun · Jul 15, 2015

FE_Hector said:
No experience with the MU, but I think it would at least be funny to Shine the lasers back, if only to mess with your opponent.

It is quite funny as "sakurai would be proud" meme, but impractical since a fast falco con punish hard, or at least squeeze in a grab. Unless youre 10 meters away lol
but something ive seen often iin the ditto is when they go to fd a falco tries to get laser control, and the other shines, resetting to neutral, or the lasering falco still has an edge if he reacts lol. But that 3% tho :v

Bones0 · Jul 15, 2015

Hubkun said:
Why is it worse? I always thought that it held some frame advantage since you can jump on frame 1? I heard D1 and/or prog say that on a match. Correct me if im wrong :v

I'd advise you ignore anything commentators say, especially about game mechanics, unless they are actually a good player.

You can't JC shine until frame 4. The timing difference between doubleshines and shine-shine-WL is that after the second shine, you aren't on the ground so you don't have to go through 5 frames of jumpsquat. You only have to DJ for 1 frame. This is still much less safe than an actual doubleshine, however, because being airborne means you have to airdodge down in front of the opponent which will give you 10 frames of landing lag (plus a few to actually reach the ground). Doubleshine is much safer because you can't do things like this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=20q8hR-OttM#t=1m20s

Sempai · Jul 16, 2015

Bones0 said:
I'd advise you ignore anything commentators say, especially about game mechanics, unless they are actually a good player.

You can't JC shine until frame 4. The timing difference between doubleshines and shine-shine-WL is that after the second shine, you aren't on the ground so you don't have to go through 5 frames of jumpsquat. You only have to DJ for 1 frame. This is still much less safe than an actual doubleshine, however, because being airborne means you have to airdodge down in front of the opponent which will give you 10 frames of landing lag (plus a few to actually reach the ground). Doubleshine is much safer because you can't do things like this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=20q8hR-OttM#t=1m20s

Agreed, commentators often spew misinformation. Toph usually is right on tho, he has some pretty good insight.

*edit* sup Bones0

mas_torque · Jul 17, 2015

Bones0 said:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h-XoHv8wBec
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uYARCNH_84c

Ledgedashing, fewer lasers, and more ground control look like what you need.

You got beat super hard by Fox's fullhop. Shoot lasers to get Fox to jump then stop shooting them and utilt or spaced ac bair. Either those or call an approaching fullhop by crossing him up from below with dash > wd > react or whatever specific movement is applicable.

You get pushed into corners or onto platforms and try to laser your way out. Lasers are assballs as a defensive tool. Capitalize on him sacrificing stage control while above you or directly punish his answers to lasers with the aforementioned options. If you're on platforms, just get back to the ground. If he tries to approach, buffer roll or something. If he isn't committing, just land and fight.

Ledgedashing is huge against Fox because without it your ledge options are easily exploitable. I would recommend literally never doing LHDL loooool Ledgedash shine/utilt/SHFFL/wait and react is all invincible on startup and you gain yourself a sliver of stage as opposed to no stage at all when holding ledge and doing a ledgehop option which expends your dj. If you hold your ground and earn stage slowly instead of LHDL or ledgehop dair and getting punished the other player will be forced to be more patient otherwise they'll get invincible ledgedash shined for not respecting how ****ing broken ledgedash is. With invincible firestall, which honestly isn't that hard, you have an invincible answer to Fox's or any characters respawn invincibility, or a way to regain composure before going back in with a ledgedash.

It doesn't seem like you use stage as a resource outside of retreating and shooting lasers. There were a few situations where you pushed Fox to the corner and chose to go in hard on shield or tap shield and go to plat. If you have Fox in the corner, position so his movement is restricted and be ready to give up a bunch of stage to attempt a counter-approach. I think you're way too laser heavy and could learn from pressuring with footsies and whatnot instead of lasers.

edit: may have been misunderstanding firestall mechanics. will report back eventually with how useful/reliable it is

Space Mercutio · Jul 19, 2015

Why don't I see top Falcos (PPMD, Westballz, MattDotZeb, etc.) use dthrow-shine? Can the other player DI out/tech away or something, or am I just not watching enough Falcos?

Also, which is better OoS--grounded shine and then jump cancel, or short hop and then shine?

Hubkun · Jul 20, 2015

D-throw is techable, and you can just di it so that the shine doesnt connect. Thats why.

Also, other grabs give you more stage/puts opponent in a bad position.

Jump, and shine while youre in jumpsquat animation. If its done pretty fast it seems like you did a grounded shine out of your sheild.

Stride · Jul 20, 2015

Hubkun said:
Jump, and shine while youre in jumpsquat animation. If its done pretty fast it seems like you did a grounded shine out of your sheild.

You can't shine during jumpsquat. You input the shine on the last frame of jumpsquat since inputs take effect the frame after they are made, but the shine doesn't cancel the jumpsquat; it interrupts your upwards velocity from the jump so you end up falling from very close to the ground (i.e. you are not grounded for the shine).

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