PPMD's Falco Discussion Thread

[Halipeno]

I love to just practice my shining with falco and certain tech skills against high handicapped bowsers, while on 1 handicap.

 

[Halipeno]

Read this PP post on practicing alone. Its long, but it'll answer your questions fairly well.
http://smashboards.com/threads/falco-discussion-thread.256826/page-439#post-14739329

Also maybe look up the Smash practice episodes (not highlights), they're a good resource, although it was originally streamed meaning its really long.
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCtGeosEjh8wfMZifNfhospw

thanks for the tips man, it really helps me.

 

[Land0]

Anybody have good advice for the IC matchup? VoDs would also be appreciated if there's any good sets from top players in this MU.

 

[FE_Hector]

I personally have no idea how the ICs MU would be played. Maybe platform camp and drop down with a dair shine when they get close enough to you and then combo Nana to death. I say Nana because CPUs have really crappy DI and techskill, so she's gonna be easier to get rid of. Still, I don't actually know.

 

[Land0]

I personally have no idea how the ICs MU would be played. Maybe platform camp and drop down with a dair shine when they get close enough to you and then combo Nana to death. I say Nana because CPUs have really crappy DI and techskill, so she's gonna be easier to get rid of. Still, I don't actually know.

I can't really figure out what stage is best/worst against them because I really don't have a good game plan going in agains them. It seems like shield pressure is extremely unsafe because one mistake leads a wobble/death.

 

[FE_Hector]

I can't really figure out what stage is best/worst against them because I really don't have a good game plan going in agains them. It seems like shield pressure is extremely unsafe because one mistake leads a wobble/death.

I would guess that they'd enjoy DL, FD, and PKS in this MU because it gives them the most room to avoid you and punish little mistakes. Battlefield, FoD, and YS should limit their room to avoid you and grant you the fastest kills, but it's definitely a weird MU to try and even theorize about.

 

[Land0]

I would guess that they'd enjoy DL, FD, and PKS in this MU because it gives them the most room to avoid you and punish little mistakes. Battlefield, FoD, and YS should limit their room to avoid you and grant you the fastest kills, but it's definitely a weird MU to try and even theorize about.

Yeah at my weekly yesterday I took the IC down to one stock on Battlefield and had a good chance to win. I counter-picked to PKS (not sure why I did this tbh) and got 3 stocked, partially because I SD'd at 0 percent. I found it a lot harder to maintain a good neutral on PKS due to the transformations.

 

[FE_Hector]

Yeah at my weekly yesterday I took the IC down to one stock on Battlefield and had a good chance to win. I counter-picked to PKS (not sure why I did this tbh) and got 3 stocked, partially because I SD'd at 0 percent. I found it a lot harder to maintain a good neutral on PKS due to the transformations.

That makes pretty good sense. Lots of room for them to move around on PKS, but you can take advantage of plats on Battlefield. Honestly, just due to their neutralB, I'd say that laseers are probably a riskier option for you in this MU than in most others. Not saying the glaciers are particularly strong, but there's two of them that could potentially hit you for every one laser you launch. Platform camping for little openings is probably the best way to handle them.

 

[Land0]

That makes pretty good sense. Lots of room for them to move around on PKS, but you can take advantage of plats on Battlefield. Honestly, just due to their neutralB, I'd say that laseers are probably a riskier option for you in this MU than in most others. Not saying the glaciers are particularly strong, but there's two of them that could potentially hit you for every one laser you launch. Platform camping for little openings is probably the best way to handle them.

For sure. I'm still not sure what to do about approaching though.

 

[FE_Hector]

For sure. I'm still not sure what to do about approaching though.

Do you mean what to do when they're approaching? Or what you should do when you've gotta approach?

 

[Land0]

Do you mean what to do when they're approaching? Or what you should do when you've gotta approach?

When I approach. The best option is if I can hit them with a shine, bit being close may mean getting grabbed which is definitely not good.

 

[FE_Hector]

When I approach. The best option is if I can hit them with a shine, bit being close may mean getting grabbed which is definitely not good.

I'm not entirely sure. It may be a good idea to try and just SHFFL nair, spaced in a way that they can't grab you easily. Alternately, maybe SHFFL nair/late dair into shine that ends in your killing Nana. I think that this partiular MU is really unexplored, though.

 

[20YY SS | Saiblade]

Just hopped into here after not getting notifications ;~;. Anyway, IC MU is pretty straight forward, get them apart with utilt or shine, and go from there, shield pressure is differently timed, but still just as effective. Try not to get grabbed by using your movement very aggressively.

 

[V_x_I_D]

How do I win agaisnt Luigi's?
What should I do and look out for against them?

 

[FE_Hector]

How do I win agaisnt Luigi's?
What should I do and look out for against them?

I was talking to a Luigi main about this last night, actually. Basically, lock down their WDs with lasers, and capitalize as much as possible off of every hit. Kills off the top are probably your best bet for handling this particular opponent. When in the neutral, watch out for that ridiculous WD distance. They'll probably inch close with continued WDs, and throw out an ftilt, usmash, or dsmash when they feel they're close enough. All his aerials come out fast, so be really careful for that.

 

[TeeJay308]

I would guess that they'd enjoy DL, FD, and PKS in this MU because it gives them the most room to avoid you and punish little mistakes. Battlefield, FoD, and YS should limit their room to avoid you and grant you the fastest kills, but it's definitely a weird MU to try and even theorize about.

Aren't you supposed to lasercamp icies to death? On the smaller stages, you have less room to move around and I really don't like being close to icies with their amazingly hard-hitting smashes and obviously the grab is a lost stock against any decent icies player. Also, what kind of "small mistakes" are they going to punish on larger stages? They aren't exactly the most mobile characters either...

I'd strongly advise against going to FoD and Yoshi's, and go for the bigger stages and camp the **** out of them.

 

[FE_Hector]

Aren't you supposed to lasercamp icies to death? On the smaller stages, you have less room to move around and I really don't like being close to icies with their amazingly hard-hitting smashes and obviously the grab is a lost stock against any decent icies player. Also, what kind of "small mistakes" are they going to punish on larger stages? They aren't exactly the most mobile characters either...

I'd strongly advise against going to FoD and Yoshi's, and go for the bigger stages and camp the **** out of them.

Literally everything I said about the MU was a guess. If you know better than I do, then ignore what I said.

 

[OninO]

Personal experience follows:

Lasers effectiveness is low, I've never been able to win the lasers vs. Ice block war consistently, you can only laser one, the other will always get an iceblock out which you then have to dodge or shield, which messes with laser timing. Still worth putting in a couple here and there to catch wavedash out of shield approaches. But I don't think laser camping is effective.

Against shield-grab happy ICs double-shine wrecks. You must be able to time your L-cancels well.

My IC opponent enjoys FD because he doesn't have to chase onto platforms, conversely plat stages are disliked. Weirdly, he likes dreamland, but I love it as well, gives me lots of space to work with. I like battlefield and dreamland personally, and I think PS but not totally sure.

ICs are NOT slow, WD out of shield and dash attack are very fast burst option and if you're not ready for it you're going to get grabbed.

Work on your buffer roll instincts, DI down and away and buffer roll will you get out of the D-throw -> dair -> re-grab set up.

Cross up, non--fast falled dair works well, whichever IC gets hit will either get popped up or awkwardly desynced.

Shine to separate, up-tilt to combo.

Forward smash is almost safe. It will still lose to perfect WD OoS and grab, but only one climber is going to get you so mash hard and get ready to buffer roll away from counter attack.

Laser can stun nana and prevent her catching an Up-B input it's worth putting one out at stage height before getting ready to bair or grab the ledge.

 

[20YY SS | Saiblade]

How do I win agaisnt Luigi's?
What should I do and look out for against them?

Luigi is tough, use shine to get him off of you, and to kill off the top, and utilt to combo. Avoid his dsmash, lock him down with lasers and ftilt. If he jabs you, gtfo.

 

[Land0]

Just hopped into here after not getting notifications ;~;. Anyway, IC MU is pretty straight forward, get them apart with utilt or shine, and go from there, shield pressure is differently timed, but still just as effective. Try not to get grabbed by using your movement very aggressively.

Yes dude! I got a chance to play against the same IC player I usually have a tough time with and brought each game to one stock today. He got 5th today so things are getting better!

 

[Land0]

Hi guys, I have been posting a lot in this discussion lately and I can't say how valuable you guys' help has been. I feel like I'm on the verge of being a threat to some of the top players of my scene. However, I believe one thing I stuggled with is consistency and playing down to the level of lower level players. I either go winless or make a good run in the bracket, regardless of the talent pool. How do you guys stay consistent and have the "clutch factor?"

 

[20YY SS | Saiblade]

Aren't you supposed to lasercamp icies to death? On the smaller stages, you have less room to move around and I really don't like being close to icies with their amazingly hard-hitting smashes and obviously the grab is a lost stock against any decent icies player. Also, what kind of "small mistakes" are they going to punish on larger stages? They aren't exactly the most mobile characters either...

I'd strongly advise against going to FoD and Yoshi's, and go for the bigger stages and camp the **** out of them.

Laser Camping only works on scrubs, you should take them to bigger stages, do avoid them though, they're scary as ****. Lastly, with good movement they're pretty damn fast.

Hi guys, I have been posting a lot in this discussion lately and I can't say how valuable you guys' help has been. I feel like I'm on the verge of being a threat to some of the top players of my scene. However, I believe one thing I stuggled with is consistency and playing down to the level of lower level players. I either go winless or make a good run in the bracket, regardless of the talent pool. How do you guys stay consistent and have the "clutch factor?"

You have to get used to tournament nerves, think more about having fun, than winning, or think about the outcome, that's usually how I remain consistent/clutch things out.

 

[GenNyan]

I have a couple of questions today.

When I WD back off of a platform, I will sometimes get put into tumble. Why?

I've been practicing my ledge techs with mines in training mode (Using Firebird). I can do it 99% of the time on YS, FoD, and PS, but I really struggle on the other stages. I haven't really practiced on FD/BF too much, so I'm not confused there, but on Dreamland I just can't get the hang of it and I have no idea why. The stage has a flat wall similar to the stages I can do it easily on, yet I barely have a 10% success rate. In addition, I've been practicing on DL for a few days now, without improvement. Is there something I'm missing about DL, or am I being a total buster?

Also on ledgetechs, what is the optimal SDI? I've been told I should flick the control stick towards the stage, swing along the corner of the little bumper thing, use the C-stick, not use the C-stick, etc. Basically I'm getting a ton of mixed messages.

 

[Pr0fessor Flash]

I have a couple of questions today.


Also on ledgetechs, what is the optimal SDI? I've been told I should flick the control stick towards the stage, swing along the corner of the little bumper thing, use the C-stick, not use the C-stick, etc. Basically I'm getting a ton of mixed messages.

This is my personal opinion but I think it's really personal preference, I have learned it by flicking the stick and I'm almost always consistent with them.

 

[Jono]

I personally have no idea how the ICs MU would be played. Maybe platform camp and drop down with a dair shine when they get close enough to you and then combo Nana to death. I say Nana because CPUs have really crappy DI and techskill, so she's gonna be easier to get rid of. Still, I don't actually know.

I wanna add more input to the punish game on ICs. Along with shines and uptilts to force separation, Fsmash is actually huge.

Dair to Fsmash will combo from 20~70%, which is actually really good for separating them or forcing an edgeguard situation.

While they're separated, if you Fsmash Popo, there's a high chance Nana will just straight up run into it because the hitbox stays for so long. Once they're separated, you can usually just treat them as two low-tier characters and out-prioritize their moves.

Biggest thing to watch out for are your own L-cancels on shield as well as blizzard to grab setups (SDI up to dodge grab I think), especially when you know they're a big wobbler.

Here's a good video to study:

 

[FE_Hector]

I have a couple of questions today.

When I WD back off of a platform, I will sometimes get put into tumble. Why?

I've asked somebody about this before, though it was about wavelands. What I was told was that I'm just holding L/R for too long. That's probably all your issue is. Apparently the game puts you into the tumble animation if you fall backwards off of a platform while your shield is up, so that's what's happening here.

 

[20YY SS | Saiblade]

I have a couple of questions today.

When I WD back off of a platform, I will sometimes get put into tumble. Why?

I've been practicing my ledge techs with mines in training mode (Using Firebird). I can do it 99% of the time on YS, FoD, and PS, but I really struggle on the other stages. I haven't really practiced on FD/BF too much, so I'm not confused there, but on Dreamland I just can't get the hang of it and I have no idea why. The stage has a flat wall similar to the stages I can do it easily on, yet I barely have a 10% success rate. In addition, I've been practicing on DL for a few days now, without improvement. Is there something I'm missing about DL, or am I being a total buster?

Also on ledgetechs, what is the optimal SDI? I've been told I should flick the control stick towards the stage, swing along the corner of the little bumper thing, use the C-stick, not use the C-stick, etc. Basically I'm getting a ton of mixed messages.

Pretty sure you're holding L too long, that or just horrid spacing. You have to SDI to get the ledge tech, are you doing that?

 

[GenNyan]

Pretty sure you're holding L too long, that or just horrid spacing. You have to SDI to get the ledge tech, are you doing that?

I am SDI-ing, but I'm not sure if I'm doing it properly, as there are multiple ways to use it. Also I was definitely holding L too long, because I had no idea that was a thing.

 

[oliman]

Falco's throw game seems to me unclear and not well understood. Does bthrow guarantee followups at any percent? is upthrow to aerial ever guaranteed? Is dthrow -> fsmash/upsmash legitimate on puff?

If anyone has a link to any posts on the exact percent and frame data and such, it would be much appreciated. If not, why are falco's not researching it?

 

[FE_Hector]

Falco's throw game seems to me unclear and not well understood. Does bthrow guarantee followups at any percent? is upthrow to aerial ever guaranteed? Is dthrow -> fsmash/upsmash legitimate on puff?

If anyone has a link to any posts on the exact percent and frame data and such, it would be much appreciated. If not, why are falco's not researching it?

Fthrow is an excellent tool for forcing your opponent off the edge, and bthrow dair works pretty often. I have no idea if dthrow has any legit followups, but if you react well enough, uthrow shine is definitely real.

 

[20YY SS | Saiblade]

Falco's throw game seems to me unclear and not well understood. Does bthrow guarantee followups at any percent? is upthrow to aerial ever guaranteed? Is dthrow -> fsmash/upsmash legitimate on puff?

If anyone has a link to any posts on the exact percent and frame data and such, it would be much appreciated. If not, why are falco's not researching it?

Bthrow dair and bair is pretty good, bthrow is also nice for nair. U throw bair is amazing, dthrow isn't great, but fthrow is nice to get them offstage.

 

[AvengerAngel]

Quick question for Dr Peepee or whoever has a good combo game on floaties: is it just me, or comboing the Mario bros. (most specifically Mario) at low-mid percentages is harder than comboing Marth/Sheik?
Sometimes, when I go for the usual "pillar" combo (Dair > shine > Dair > shine/utilt), I either get hit before the second Dair or before the shine/utilt. Am I doing something wrong? D:

FYI I'm playing the PAL version. In the NTSC version the Mario bros' weight is 100 and Marth's weight is 87. In the PAL version, Luigi/Doc's weight is 100, Mario's weight is 98 and Marth's weight is 85. And of course I can't use weak Dairs to keep the combos going after a certain % ;_;

 

[20YY SS | Saiblade]

Quick question for Dr Peepee or whoever has a good combo game on floaties: is it just me, or comboing the Mario bros. (most specifically Mario) at low-mid percentages is harder than comboing Marth/Sheik?
Sometimes, when I go for the usual "pillar" combo (Dair > shine > Dair > shine/utilt), I either get hit before the second Dair or before the shine/utilt. Am I doing something wrong? D:

FYI I'm playing the PAL version. In the NTSC version the Mario bros' weight is 100 and Marth's weight is 87. In the PAL version, Luigi/Doc's weight is 100, Mario's weight is 98 and Marth's weight is 85. And of course I can't use weak Dairs to keep the combos going after a certain % ;_;

It's different, and harder. I play NTSC, so I'm not sure about PAL, but yeah it's definitely different.

 

[Land0]

Falco's throw game seems to me unclear and not well understood. Does bthrow guarantee followups at any percent? is upthrow to aerial ever guaranteed? Is dthrow -> fsmash/upsmash legitimate on puff?

If anyone has a link to any posts on the exact percent and frame data and such, it would be much appreciated. If not, why are falco's not researching it?

Watch PP, he uses upthrow fair on certain characters and I personally love doing that.

 

[`Rival]

Yo

when fox is close enough to make it seem very risky to laser, but you also can't tell if he is going to rush you down or not, what do you guys try to do? i have a few answers but i'm just curious

 

[Jono]

Yo

when fox is close enough to make it seem very risky to laser, but you also can't tell if he is going to rush you down or not, what do you guys try to do? i have a few answers but i'm just curious

Hi Rival. You're the one in Toronto right?

I had to ask myself this question a while back too, but I was more solving the problem of the closer distance where things become more unreactable. I notice when I try to dashdance or dash back in this scenario, Fox gets a shine or grab that's hard to react to cause his dash speed is so fast.

So other than dash dance into a reaction or such:

A lot of characters like Sheik throw out safe moves in this situation like AC Fair and Falco can do similar things with AC bair, to make space. Falco can also mix up AC bair spacings to throw him off of his dash dance (momentum towards Fox has a good chance of catching him). The higher risk one that I notice top players also opt for is just a really freaking fast SHFFL dair in his dash dance space.

Once it's more clear he's coming in for a running shine or grab, I think Falco really has to throw out preemptive attacks because he's slower than Fox. Westballz I notice in his games does this with a suite of uptilt, AC bair, and shine into instant dair.

The last one I can think of is a full jump, which can catch Foxes that are really antsy to aerial Falco's laser.

 

[`Rival]

Hi Rival. You're the one in Toronto right?

I had to ask myself this question a while back too, but I was more solving the problem of the closer distance where things become more unreactable. I notice when I try to dashdance or dash back in this scenario, Fox gets a shine or grab that's hard to react to cause his dash speed is so fast.

So other than dash dance into a reaction or such:

A lot of characters like Sheik throw out safe moves in this situation like AC Fair and Falco can do similar things with AC bair, to make space. Falco can also mix up AC bair spacings to throw him off of his dash dance (momentum towards Fox has a good chance of catching him). The higher risk one that I notice top players also opt for is just a really freaking fast SHFFL dair in his dash dance space.

Once it's more clear he's coming in for a running shine or grab, I think Falco really has to throw out preemptive attacks because he's slower than Fox. Westballz I notice in his games does this with a suite of uptilt, AC bair, and shine into instant dair.

The last one I can think of is a full jump, which can catch Foxes that are really antsy to aerial Falco's laser.

yep i'm the one from toronto. and yea the distance where things become unreactable is the scenario i meant to describe. overall the situation seems like rps, and sometimes 50/50 depending on the spacing/position on the stage. i've been trying to practice this one specific spot a bunch because it is probably the scariest place to be vs fox in the matchup other than being off stage, and i often find myself having to go against what feels "safe".

thanks for your input (y)

 

[V_x_I_D]

Okay, Sheik Is the bane of my existence. She's so fast, Falco is combo food for her. One fair and I'm doneskies.
Please help me with this match up.
It seems that there's no room for mistakes when playing a sheik.

 

[FE_Hector]

The Sheik MU is super difficult, but also super fun. If you want to laser her, you're going to have to be sure that it's only as a way to limit her recoveries or when at a really safe distance. Because of her tools, you're going to have to bait her out a bit more. As soon as she whiffs, go in with something and PUNISH. I get that it's not something you normally see, but you're going to have to DD in order to make this happen the way I see it. That may partially be my inner Marth main, but honestly I feel like Falco's DD is underestimated, especially when WD shine or SHFFL n/dair is factored in.

 

[Rachman]

When you guys do a run off -> dj dair dair or drop down as low as you can off ledge -> dj dair to land onstage what inputs do you guys use? I feel like I'm too slow with the C stick so presumably you should use the A button to be as fast as possible (since unlike instant SHFFLs you don't have the jumpsquat to make it quicker)? Iono it just seems like it's harder for me than it should be