PPMD's Falco Discussion Thread

[mooki]

Is Dair>Shine pressure inferior to Nair or Bair>Shine?

 

[デュラエース(放浪者)]

Ya for the CC, you really have to watch it with the range in between you and Falco. Pretty sure theres a distance where Nair will hit but Dair won't. But by then I guess you can perhaps simply CC laser into jab trade with dair if not uair. I think that's how it goes, not entirely sure, I have a hard time visualizing these situations lol.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=M5DD_SLCmrU#t=300 It looks exactly like that.

Hey Kage, you're also a great player. An amazing Ganon at that. Will you give me your take on the Ganon versus Falco match up on both sides? What shouldn't and what should be done by both players?

 

[Dr Peepee]

Tak Thank you. I hope to play you someday and hang out bro. I have another question. I play a verity of characters, but the first one was Falco. Should I continue on playing them all while developing my Falco, or should I stick to one? I remember reading a thread you wrote about the multitude of knowledge you gain from different characters.

Focus heavily on one character but play the others sometimes. Other characters help with blocks and add knowledge but they are a minor role compared to how much work it is to master one character.

And yeah see ya one day =)

 

[Rocketpowerchill]

really hope you stick around the community for a lot longer pp, your the only falco left imo
now when i think of falco lombardi its your name that comes first to my mind lol
im just gonna start studying your matches more cuz your style is the best way to play falco, good ****

 

[Twilight Emblem]

I'm setting some speed goals and i'd like to ask a favor of anybody who knows the following or is willing to test and find out the following and post here.

The maximum amount of times falco can do each aerial separately for one minute. In other words, I need to know the max amount of times falco can dair in one minute, bair in one minute, fair in one minute and nair in one minute. On the stage and not using any ledge canceling tricks. I'd like to use this rate as a goal to drive me to play faster.




What are your opinions on allowing the hands to rest from serious work at trying to improve? Do you feel the hands can be played to an intense level everyday and can recover well enough to push hard each day? Or do you feel there should be *light days* or even rest days?

 

[Bones0]

I'm setting some speed goals and i'd like to ask a favor of anybody who knows the following or is willing to test and find out the following and post here.

The maximum amount of times falco can do each aerial separately for one minute. In other words, I need to know the max amount of times falco can dair in one minute, bair in one minute, fair in one minute and nair in one minute. On the stage and not using any ledge canceling tricks. I'd like to use this rate as a goal to drive me to play faster.




What are your opinions on allowing the hands to rest from serious work at trying to improve? Do you feel the hands can be played to an intense level everyday and can recover well enough to push hard each day? Or do you feel there should be *light days* or even rest days?

Idk if anyone knows the exact number of nairs per minute with Falco (Fox is on YouTube I think), but iirc it's around 110. Not sure on that though. While knowing the max amount as a goal is good, you really should be striving for consistency over raw speed. Melee is weird in the way that if you focus on consistency, the increased speed will come naturally over time. A player that really isolates each section of a SHFFL and makes sure he does each step without worrying about the speed will have much more fluid tech skill than someone who is just cramming the fastest SHFFL possible into each of his jumps. When you take your time learning fast tech skill, you also get a better understanding for the different cadences of the possible timing mixups. Players who only do the fastest version possible not only end up getting stuck doing that one timing, but the timing of their actual attack, FF, and L-cancel become inconsistent because they did not stop to learn the rhythm of the tech.

Hopefully that makes sense. Just trying to make sure you aren't wasting your time going for frame perfection when it's better spent playing slow with proper attention being payed to each element of the tech skill.

As far as resting your hands goes, everyone is different. For me, I have attended a 5-day tournament and played Melee the entire time without ever needing (or wanting) a break. In fact, my tech skill tends to sort of build up over multiple days. I'm usually playing super smooth on day 3 of tournies compared to the first day. Other people have to take a break every 30 minutes or so for whatever reason. If you experience discomfort, I would figure out a good way to take breaks, stretch your hands, or do whatever you need to to prevent injury and maximize fluidity in your movements. Adjusting how you hold your controller or actually do your inputs can also help with any hand discomfort. Just go as hard as you can when you get the chance, and then you can see what your limitations are.

 

[Twilight Emblem]

Bones- Thanks for checking up on me to see if the speed was coming along properly. I'm pretty sure the majority of those considerations are already present in my L canceling training although I don't think i'm using the method of breaking the L canceling down to learn how to micromanage the different steps of it to change up the timing. I think the result that training calls for is already happening from my approach even though I haven't practiced it this way. I'll try that today and see if it makes a difference.



Right now i'm L canceling at different jump heights and from different distances from the opponent and am attempting to hit the opponent from various angles like crossing over them/ barely touching them with the tip of my move etc. I'm also doing the method of trying to land L cancels on certain markers on pokemon stadium like the red of the pokeball or the yellow triangles on the ground/outline of the pokeball and mixing it up like that. I have a human opponent living with me to practice this on

I'm pretty sure on command I can move inbetween different rythmns of L canceling but i'll test it out today to be sure and change my practice up to include training for this if I can't. I was micromanaging the process of L canceling but instead of breaking it up I was actually messing with the timing during the process of performing full L cancels

I'm still really interested in learning the aerial rates for falco.If anybody knows them or is wiilling to test to find out and share with me just PM me or post here. I'd look myself but I have no computer and this wii browser isn't turning up anything. It would make my day.

I can vouche that 110 isn't his max nairs per minute as i've seen rates of 128 and that didn't look like his speed cap on his nairs.

 

[Divinokage]

Hey Kage, you're also a great player. An amazing Ganon at that. Will you give me your take on the Ganon versus Falco match up on both sides? What shouldn't and what should be done by both players?

I can try doing that but I'm actually pretty bad as to what to do vs Falco, I don't have a strong base to defend myself I don't think.. I usually rely on reads before the Falco has time to even try to bring out a move. So I guess I can first say that Ganon really needs to hit Falco with counter-attacks mainly because if not it's really hard to catch him. It's a good idea for Ganon to SDI lasers at certain ranges in order to trap Falco into thinking a follow-up Nair/Dair is safe but then if done correctly he will whiff and then you can grab him. There's also the option to CC the Nair into grab before Falco lands which will give you a huge punish as well. I think the major part where Ganon needs to get down is the laser game and the follow up because if you start getting hit a lot, you'll get comboed VERY hard so you really don't want that. Falco's approaches are actually pretty limited if you look carefully, you have to play with your range extremely well though. If Falco is able to bait Ganon's jump first then he's in a good position though but Ganon can still SDI laser to waveland so sometimes you would want to mix it up and go under his moves or wait for him to completely whiff and then attack.

If you see that Ganon shields a lot don't be afraid to overshoot or get a pressure string going to prevent shield grabs or the hug (Ganon's Up-B) but do not utilt his shield because he can always up-B OOS regardless of where he's facing. (But it's ok to do it low % since if I UP-B OOS, you'll likely have time to punish much harder than just the 17% I did to you) Ya that utilt should be used if you can see that it'll hit when Ganon comes down at you or in combos I think. You gotta be slightly careful of Dair OOS if you spam utilit there's a spacing where I can hit Utilt by just doing SH Dair facing away from you. I think as Falco, it's really good to keep moving and slowly corner Ganon where he'll have to jump again with lasers. If you don't manage to control Ganon, he'll destroy you in a couple hits. lol. Learn to move around all of Ganon's moves with really high jumps using the platforms, DDs + wavedash and baiting his whiffed attacks which then gives you ample time to hit him and start a huge combo.

As for recovering, just straight up dair him, don't be afraid to go out there and kill him.. he has barely any options for recovering. The classic fall down the ledge, re-jump back on with Dair is really good usually. If I tech then you can Bair I guess. Bair is also good to create a wall and to punish slow moves.. it has a great angle to hit Ganon just before his moves come out. Even on shield spaced is safe as long you hit the shield as you are falling down.

 

[Charlesz]

Invincible ledge dash:
Can someone who knows what they are talking about explain the timing of how to do this? Every time I've done a wavedash from the ledge with fox I'm usually vulnerable. A prime example of someone really taking advantage of this strategy is Leffen.

 

[milligraham]

Is there a thread or something that discusses the pros and cons of playing each stage as Falco? (something along the lines of Scar's stage guide in the Captain Falcon forum)

 

[Bones0]

Is there a thread or something that discusses the pros and cons of playing each stage as Falco? (something along the lines of Scar's stage guide in the Captain Falcon forum)

I think the matchup thread discusses general pros and cons of each stage for each matchup, but that's the only thread I can think of that would have any guidelines concerning stages.

 

[KP17]

how should falco utilize the different ranges of low platforms on fod (not comboing) against each of the other top tiers?

 

[mayhem]

http://www.twitch.tv/rtpmwe/b/472716022?t=2h53m53s

Yo guys I am trying to work on my combo game and would like to hear opinions on what to work on. Especially I would like to hear how I could use platforms better with my combos, because I feel like that on FD I can combo all day long with no problem, but I have to work on using platforms. Usually I feel like I have to guess the DI when comboing on platforms and I am pretty sure there is better ways to combo so I don't have to guess but react to the DI.

Any other advice is welcome too

 

[Twilight Emblem]

I love playing falco on platforms

 

[whitemountain123]

Invincible ledge dash:
Can someone who knows what they are talking about explain the timing of how to do this? Every time I've done a wavedash from the ledge with fox I'm usually vulnerable. A prime example of someone really taking advantage of this strategy is Leffen.

I'm not an expert on this, but I can do it pretty consistently with falco while maintaining my invulnerability (leffen is by far the best at it with fox). I apologize if this sounds obvious/basic, but given that no one else responded, here's my advice:

There are two basic ways that you could be losing your invincibility. Either you're staying on the ledge too long before starting the ledgedash, or you're doing the actual mechanics of the ledgedash too slowly. For most people, it seems to be the first case. If you're completely flubbing the actual mechanics—as in, the waveland isn't smooth or something—then you need to just practice that part.

But, like I said, for most people the issue is staying on the ledge too long in the first place. I'd say practice seeing how soon you can drop from the ledge (without ledgedashing) after grabbing it. That is, get a feel for the timing that you can most quickly off the ledge. I'd practice this across various ways of grabbing the ledge in the first place, too (e.g., up b, side b, dj regrab) to get your fingers used to the sequence of actions that you'll most likely be pulling off mid game. Once you've got that worked out, practice dropping as quickly as possible and ledgedashing.

Hope that helps

 

[Rocketpowerchill]

yo anyone here confident with the neutral game cuz that **** is really mind ****ing me

when i start a match i really dont know what to do, i usually drop through if im on a side plats, or run away to get space
then i just hangout and camp and vary lazers if my opponent is also starting slow

i just dont know how to go from there, i know when i get a shine i can follow it up properly according to there di and continue or even just wait and react with the positional advantage

but whenever the game resets to where its two people making decisions, it seems so random and eventually i feel i have to do some basic arial/laser approach to make any combo game start

im not experienced enough to have much of an impact just moving in conjunction with my opponents and forcing them into positions where i win a trade or can do stuff and not get punished, like cc traps and stuff

just watching pp and other theory craft people doesnt make me learn other than to be able to convert of certain hits and stuff,
as a result, my matches are choppy and theres never a flow or me having momentum

its as if when i play the people i play consistently, i am better but that only means i have to take charge which i dont no how to do
which results in random matches without anything to take from

where as when i play people who body me, they can play the neutral game good and never get into a stand still where they are just moving or throwing out moves without a purpose. any thoughts i guess, ill put in the work to improve lol just dont see much beyond the game yet, all i see are grab conversions, trades, edgeguards, and combos.
obviously the few people that are my practice partners arent good enough to destroy me and teach me, we just go through the motions, we dont learn anything any ideas besides grinding out friendlies and gradually taking the tips you get in hours worth of friendlies?

 

[l will find peace]

@PP:

Dont know how recently this has been answered but, what are your current thoughts on fox falco?

I kinda think fox barely wins cause their punish games are equally good (more or less) and patient fox has a slighty stronger neutral game. also falco dies more easily (and i main fox so this isnt just character johning)

but then again im bad, so id like to know what you currently think. or just say that you addressed it recently or your mind hasnt changed since 2012 and ill go hunt for posts.

 

[Bones0]

@PP:

Dont know how recently this has been answered but, what are your current thoughts on fox falco?

I kinda think fox barely wins cause their punish games are equally good (more or less) and patient fox has a slighty stronger neutral game. also falco dies more easily (and i main fox so this isnt just character johning)

but then again im bad, so id like to know what you currently think. or just say that you addressed it recently or your mind hasnt changed since 2012 and ill go hunt for posts.

Mango said he thinks Fox beats Falco. I forget which episode it was, but it was during one of Melee It On Me's match analysis vids. I highly recommend watching all of them anyway.

http://www.twitch.tv/meleeitonme/profile

 

[Divinokage]

Im not so sure about that one, he recently said that they both can own each other really hard.. which is true. =P

 

[l will find peace]

ive already watched all miom vids. i already know what mango thinks.

i just want to know what pp thinks

 

[Swampler]

Hey guys, I have a friendlies set that I'd like some critique on. Obviously there is some serious issues with my tech skill consistency and edge guarding but I'd like some insight on the matches anyways.

 

[Vixen]

Mango says fox ***** falco

Sent from my SPH-L300 using Tapatalk 2

 

[Dr Peepee]

ive already watched all miom vids. i already know what mango thinks.

i just want to know what pp thinks

Hi there!

Yeah I'll admit I'm a bit surprised at all of the new Fox vs Falco speculation lately. I don't think anything has really changed for that matchup and I generally still feel Falco has a super slight edge or it's just even. Falco hits harder and generally outranges Fox iirc. He also can mitigate some of that speed advantage Fox has by lasering, forcing Fox to play vertically. This vertical play is not so impossible for Falco to control since Fox can't run around so much. I'd say that the real reason it ends up being slightly in Falco's favor is Falco gets more stage to work with and can convert on his hits to combos probably easier than Fox can from this type of position, even though they will both struggle vs each other here.

 

[dRevan64]

Hey guys, I have a friendlies set that I'd like some critique on. Obviously there is some serious issues with my tech skill consistency and edge guarding but I'd like some insight on the matches anyways.

You have an odd habit of using uptilt a lot which isn't bad necessarily since it's a good move but pressuring with it probably isn't advisable (like 20 seconds in or so you utilt on jappy's shield and get grabbed for it–a shine might've gotten you free there). Also, would I be wrong to say you don't feel super comfortable on platforms?
The one other thing I notice mostly because I do it as well is you sometimes will continue pressuring instead of reacting after your opponent has jumped or otherwise gotten out of it (or gotten hit by it, see 2:20, it happens other times as well though), you shouldn't really just press your buttons and expect to get consistent results every time.

That's all I got, a better falco than me will probably have more detailed insights.

 

[Swampler]

Thanks dRevan, I have quite a few nasty habbits like the ones you pointed out. I guess Ill just have to make a concious effort to drop them.

 

[Vixen]

I've been saying since 09 that Fox beats Falco. >_>

 

[Twilight Emblem]

I <3 falco

 

[otter]

I need some help deciding which stages to use on the other top tiers as Falco and why. I know it's wiser to decide on your own based on opponent's tendencies, but I'm just not good enough yet (been playing melee for two days) and stage selection is just ambiguous to me. Also, which stages are really bad for Falco.

I will soak up as much detail as you guys have time to write out.



Thank you!

 

[mooki]

I don't really see anyone use dair in shield pressure. It seems like most people use nair. Is there any downside to using dair while pressuring a shield?

 

[Dr Peepee]

Dair is fine, unless it's staled(you hit with it more), then it's weaker and has less stun on shield than Nair.

Both are fine fresh, they stun shields the same.

 

[Twilight Emblem]

Can I get some critique on this problem i'm having

Alright so I've got a weird problem now with my tech skill. L canceling is learned and wave dashing is here but

When i'm in the middle of playing somebody, positioning myself to land the move into them on the fly is actually pretty hard.
Like if they're on a platform above me and I want to bair them, I don't even hit them with the bair I just go flying past them LOL
Or if I land a dair and I want to shine them, my dair is too far away from them on the initial hit for the reflector to touch them.

When I try to combo computers with more human DI this doesn't seem to be a problem and I can just flow across the stage with all sorts of fun stuff but I get so tight playing another person

I think some of it is playing hasty and i'm working on that but sometimes the character just gets clumsy when the reaction time to play with him goes up

Also I've got a really weird problem where if I land the aerial the fastfall doesn't register sometimes and I hang on the character after I hit them or their shield. I get wrecked hard for this because my aerials can't fastfall into the L cancel for my reflector after I aerial. This makes my dair/shine pressure really inconsistent and my combos get dropped when this happens.

 

[Bones0]

Can I get some critique on this problem i'm having

Alright so I've got a weird problem now with my tech skill. L canceling is learned and wave dashing is here but

When i'm in the middle of playing somebody, positioning myself to land the move into them on the fly is actually pretty hard.
Like if they're on a platform above me and I want to bair them, I don't even hit them with the bair I just go flying past them LOL
Or if I land a dair and I want to shine them, my dair is too far away from them on the initial hit for the reflector to touch them.

When I try to combo computers with more human DI this doesn't seem to be a problem and I can just flow across the stage with all sorts of fun stuff but I get so tight playing another person

I think some of it is playing hasty and i'm working on that but sometimes the character just gets clumsy when the reaction time to play with him goes up

Also I've got a really weird problem where if I land the aerial the fastfall doesn't register sometimes and I hang on the character after I hit them or their shield. I get wrecked hard for this because my aerials can't fastfall into the L cancel for my reflector after I aerial. This makes my dair/shine pressure really inconsistent and my combos get dropped when this happens.

The first few paragraphs are generally referred to as "spacing", and it's one of the things that makes Melee so hard. You have such detailed control over your character, but that means you have be able to control your character like you are performing surgery with your hands. It will come with practice as long as you stick at it. Practicing consistently helps especially.

For the fastfall problem, this is caused by hitlag. When you hit an opponent or an opponent's shield with an attack, you BOTH undergo hitlag for a few frames. During these frames, both players are completely frozen in whatever position they were in. The player getting attacked can mash their stick to Smash DI (basically, they can alter their character's X and Y coordinates to make it a little easier to survive KO moves or avoid combos). The player attacking cannot do anything, and this includes FFing. If you practice without an enemy, you can attack and FF at any timing that you like. When you attack an enemy, you have to account for hitlag by FFing before it and attacking after you start your FF or attacking, waiting for hitlag to end, and then FFing after.

You can visually see what hitlag is in Training Mode. Simply put the speed on 1/4th and pick any character with a particularly strong move (the more % a move deals, the longer hitlag lasts). Hit the computer with the strong move, and you will clearly see your attack's animation freeze for a split second. It's also worth noting that you cannot FF until you reach the peak of your jump. That means if you want to FF before you aerial and undergo hitlag, you would have to be attacking after the peak of your jump. The best way to practice shield pressure is to play against a Bowser with your handicap on 1 and his on 9. This will prevent him from flying away constantly so he can emulate a shield (hitting a shield has the same amount of hitlag as hitting a character's body).

 

[whitemountain123]

@pp

I've recently been thinking about/struggling with the falcon matchup. I know the consensus is that the matchup is in falco's favor, but I've been trying to think why (especially as players get better with dealing with lasers and traditional shield pressure). Am I just supposed to be abusing dair and bair to outprioritize him? My nair seems to trade/put me in bad situations a lot vs falcons who like to spam nair.

What do you think are falco's strengths and weaknesses in the matchup, and what is your mindset when you play vs. falcon? Also, does your gameplan/mindset change depending on whether the falcon is more defensive or not (e..g, Hax vs S2J)?

Sorry for the barrage of questions! feel free to answer however much you feel like

Thanks!

 

[Twilight Emblem]

There is a matchup thread here where PP talks about falcon vs falco and the info there helped me play vs a falcon here. I'm sure he can elaborate more though i'm just saying we have a place where theres some info. Also I think the falcon boards may also have a guide of their own of how they fight falco so that could also be something to check out. I'm a new player so take this with a grain of salt but a big change for me after reading it was focusing on pressuring falcons shield from behind and knowing how to react to his pressure better so you don't give him as much punishment for what he does to you. Also it feels empowering to know how little falcon can do out of his shield so when you lock him down into it and you know hes a goner and you've got a plan to punish him for being in the shield it makes falcon feel free

Bones0 thanks for that. If I ever play you IRL i'll have to treat you to some lunch or something for helping me out here so much

 

[Rocketpowerchill]

-yo ive been wanting to use smashdi more and more now, and ive patiently been learning to get my trajectory di down better

-so ive come to ask how do you properly use smashdi for survival di? cuz i know you can die quicker if you do it wrong
do you only rely on the few inputs you make to keep you away from the blastzones or are you supposed to smash than hold to get the regular di input aswell

some of this stuff isnt easy to find in the boards and most of its hella old so i just need to understand advanced angles like the crazy **** mango does to survive

 

[glottore]

Hi Dr Peepee, I've started to play Smash Melee competitively but I'm having trouble with a few technical things:
1. Do you use R or L when L-cancelling, wavedashing and such? I've been using R but in a lot of tournaments I see the pro players using L.
2. Do you use the trigger trick where you take the spring off 1 of the triggers? If so which one? Just not sure if it's necessary.
3. How do you personally shine into wavedash? Seeing as you want to press jump immediately after doing the shine, I thought it might be best to adopt the claw temporarily to press B and Y as fast as possible. Is it a matter of just being as fast as possible with your thumb?
4. When short-hopping into Bair do you use the c-stick or simply press A while jumping backwards?
5. I've noticed that you're extremely fluid across platforms. Do you recommend doing any sort of exercises to get into that fluidity?

Would really appreciate your advice man.

 

[Bones0]

Hi Dr Peepee, I've started to play Smash Melee competitively but I'm having trouble with a few technical things:
1. Do you use R or L when L-cancelling, wavedashing and such? I've been using R but in a lot of tournaments I see the pro players using L.
2. Do you use the trigger trick where you take the spring off 1 of the triggers? If so which one? Just not sure if it's necessary.
3. How do you personally shine into wavedash? Seeing as you want to press jump immediately after doing the shine, I thought it might be best to adopt the claw temporarily to press B and Y as fast as possible. Is it a matter of just being as fast as possible with your thumb?
4. When short-hopping into Bair do you use the c-stick or simply press A while jumping backwards?
5. I've noticed that you're extremely fluid across platforms. Do you recommend doing any sort of exercises to get into that fluidity?

Would really appreciate your advice man.

1. and 2. It doesn't matter which one you use, but I would recommend splitting trigger presses between the two so you aren't doing everything with one. You should trigger trick one and use that for teching and powershielding. Use the other one for shielding normally, light shielding, L-cancelling (light press only), and WDing.

3. PP uses X, but Y is easier and strictly better for any advanced tech. You can claw if you want, but the fastest thing you have to ever do is LHDL or double shine, both of which I can consistently do with just my thumb.

4. I use A, but I actually struggle to do bairs while jumping forward, so if you can get used to the C-stick, that's in your best interest. If you're going to learn to claw, this is the kind of stuff that you would benefit the most from.

 

[Naughty Pixel]

I don't really see anyone use dair in shield pressure. It seems like most people use nair. Is there any downside to using dair while pressuring a shield?

Taken from bones' frame data thread
Nair:
L-Canceled: 7

Dair:
Lcanceled: 9

There is a 2 frame difference between nair and dair. So for just being more air tight I guess Nair would be better. But say it's fox at like 50% if you hit him with a dair it's gonna lead to an easy follow up where as a nair would knock him away where he has a better chance of returning to the neutral game. Now let's say fox is at 100%+, a nair is gonna send him off stage for an edgeguard opportunity. A dair will send him upwards, at low 100% it will still lead to a follow up like a bair to send him off stage, or at higher percent he'll go to high to follow up. There are just situations where you might want to use one over the other in a vacuum but for the most part it's not gonna matter too much. Spamming shield pressure constantly is excessive though, as you could just as easily go for a shine grab for some free damage, and gain a better footing on the stage. It's okay as a mixup but unless you're really good about it you're just gonna get yourself shield grabbed a bunch.

 

[BTmoney]

Consider that dair probably deals more % than nair (thus more shield stun)

I'm too lazy to check

 

[Xyzz]

They both deal 12%, but nair has two frames shorter l-cancelled landing lag (7 as opposed to 9)