PPMD's Falco Discussion Thread

[Rocketpowerchill]

thanks all, i will drop all the random uselss tech i practiced, after watching bad influences (westballz) no shots, just saiyan look at me now and look how awkward my falco looks

as far as breaking through noob stages of melee, just watch pp and play with people who adopt the rock paper scissors mentality rofl

 

[Xyzz]

You can watch matches of Wes all you like. You can even take a lot away from them.

Just don't expect to blindly copy him and be successful with it, if you don't hit anywhere near as hard as he does and are much slower than he is.

 

[otter]

Hey guys, I'm learning melee and using Falco. I'm doing okay in the neutral game, and generally land a lot more hits than my opponent. The problem is that I have trouble transitioning into a killing mode and my opponents usually live past 100% and kill me with something dumb while I'm at a low percentage.

So I guess I'm just asking how you guys finish off you opponents effectively?

 

[Xyzz]

Well, Falco tends to land more neutral hits in the neutral position, and be punished harder when he does get hit. Not like he didn't hit like a truck himself, but he is really, really fragile, so... :D

Common combo finishers would be: Bair, dairs sending them off the stage, fsmash/dsmash.
Bair is the reliable "I don't have any idea what to do anymore, let's just hit them offstage / out of position and work with that" (not that there's anything wrong with that, falco is good enough at edgeguarding to convert quite a few of those into kills... and positional advantage at lower percents is also quite fine)
Dair usually requires some planning on your part, or ****ty DI inputs from your opponent, but can be done (e.g. weak bair to carry them the last bit of the way and then dair, or a shine that sends them outwards when they are already close to the ledge).
Fsmash/dsmash are probably the most situational, but really fun if you can get them (some setups are shine under a platform, waveland on it, fsmash; dair/dash attack can combo into them at certain percents/DIs, and there is situations where many people miss techs if you put them in them. E.g. if you jump into them when they are already close to the ground, most people expect a dair and try to tech that. If you hit them with a weak bair, they'll land a few frames later and are probably techlocked from the dair-tech-attempt which obviously results in a free smash... or the infamous Sion-Combo consisting of stuff > uptilt > grab > fthrow > dair > dsmash)


Don't stress it though. If they do end up at high percents, don't try to force the kill (I tried that long enough, it just doesn't work against competent opponents ). Anything that will send them offstage is good enough at that point, and be it a nair/ftilt (bair is pretty good, but don't start doing nothing but them ).
And against floaties you can sometimes pick up surprise dtilts, which kill surprisingly early (rather underrated move).

 

[Naughty Pixel]

Hey guys, I'm learning melee and using Falco. I'm doing okay in the neutral game, and generally land a lot more hits than my opponent. The problem is that I have trouble transitioning into a killing mode and my opponents usually live past 100% and kill me with something dumb while I'm at a low percentage.

So I guess I'm just asking how you guys finish off you opponents effectively?

you won't get any off the side kills until 90-100% on most characters you need to pay attention to their percents a little more, realize your moves are starting to push them further back and look to send them off stage where you can edge guard them. Edge guards vary from MU to MU so if you have more specific questions, maybe I could help like that.

Like Xyzz says, DON'T try to force the kill. Just keep control over the pace of the match and make the opponent play your game.

 

[Rocketpowerchill]

quick question on combos

in training mode, if a sequence doesnt count as consecutive hits, does that mean it isnt a true combo and doesnt work?

forexample the flashy single hit upair to uptilt zhu does doesnt add up on the consecutive hits thing. does it not read hits only on the ground?

 

[mooki]

I'm pretty sure that the Zhu isn't a "true combo". I don't think the single hit up air has that much hit stun.

 

[Xyzz]

quick question on combos

in training mode, if a sequence doesnt count as consecutive hits, does that mean it isnt a true combo and doesnt work?

forexample the flashy single hit upair to uptilt zhu does doesnt add up on the consecutive hits thing. does it not read hits only on the ground?

If the sequence doesn't count it as consecutive hits, it's either not a trve combo, or you were slower than you had to be for it to work.

That being said, there's tons of things that technically aren't legit, but still work because your opponent might be able to influence the picture shown on the screen with the startup of something, but aren't fast enough to make a difference...
One of the fastest ways to get out of stuff for most characters would be double jump (to untumble) into airdodge... which is vulnerable for the start up of the airdodge (and whatever time one spends jumping before inputting the airdodge), and super risky because if you still get hit... congratz you've blown your DJ and still are in the air, which tends to be a death sentence for many characters.
And well, most characters have good upward hitboxes on their aerials, but bad ones on their downwards things, so even trading is sometimes hard to achieve.
Or they might simply not react to it in time if they don't expect there to be an opening. E.g. I don't think laser on aerial opponent to fsmash is actually legit, but it still works all the time.

 

[Rocketpowerchill]

If the sequence doesn't count it as consecutive hits, it's either not a trve combo, or you were slower than you had to be for it to work.

That being said, there's tons of things that technically aren't legit, but still work because your opponent might be able to influence the picture shown on the screen with the startup of something, but aren't fast enough to make a difference...
One of the fastest ways to get out of stuff for most characters would be double jump (to untumble) into airdodge... which is vulnerable for the start up of the airdodge (and whatever time one spends jumping before inputting the airdodge), and super risky because if you still get hit... congratz you've blown your DJ and still are in the air, which tends to be a death sentence for many characters.
And well, most characters have good upward hitboxes on their aerials, but bad ones on their downwards things, so even trading is sometimes hard to achieve.
Or they might simply not react to it in time if they don't expect there to be an opening. E.g. I don't think laser on aerial opponent to fsmash is actually legit, but it still works all the time.

thanks, was experimenting with the combo meter thing
i need to do simple options lol

also, i dont understand lasers when their used on a grounded opponent, isnt it a big and risky commitment?

i get falco can control the match cuz he forces the opponent to react to the lasers, and he can punish their reactions to the lasers
but when you run in too far with a laser, isnt that like throwing your stock away against a good player? 1 grab as shiek or marth = offstage

 

[SAUS]

thanks, was experimenting with the combo meter thing
i need to do simple options lol

also, i dont understand lasers when their used on a grounded opponent, isnt it a big and risky commitment?

i get falco can control the match cuz he forces the opponent to react to the lasers, and he can punish their reactions to the lasers
but when you run in too far with a laser, isnt that like throwing your stock away against a good player? 1 grab as shiek or marth = offstage

Correct. You don't want to jump in their face with your lasers. You want to space them properly - to do this, there are many factors, but a really easy one is when they are shielding. Stay just out of range of any moves they can do out of their shield and keep shooting lasers. They will have to do something eventually and you can try to punish them.

Sometimes though, I find a really low laser on their shield into a shine can be "safe". They can get you before the laser (I think) but if they don't go for it, your shine could beat their grab. I wouldn't do that often though lol and also my falco is not very good. I just spam stuff and have pretty good control of falco so lower skilled players just get crushed by the pressure.

 

[Fox128]

Yea lasers are tricky in 2013
Basically what lasers do in high-level play is shutting down a lot of the approaching options your opponents have and forcing them into sheilding. So yes, they are still an awesome tool to control the match.
For approaching however you have to be tricky against better players. The timing and spacing must be right and it is also highly recommended to DD some inbetween lasers, so they don't actually know when you really approach. Shooting lasers low is also key here, since you can act faster after them (like...true comboing), and just as importantly low lasers can't be duck under and are much harder to powersheild.
When you "successfully" approached a sheilding opponent with the laser, it's still kinda RPS, because they always have enough time to spotdodge / sometimes WD OOS and even use some of the quicker aggressive OOS options. Basically you wanna get a feeiling for your opponents reaction to your laser approaches and mix-up your laser shine/laser grab/laser shffl/laser shinegrab/laser DD accordingly.

 

[Naughty Pixel]

thanks, was experimenting with the combo meter thing
i need to do simple options lol

also, i dont understand lasers when their used on a grounded opponent, isnt it a big and risky commitment?

i get falco can control the match cuz he forces the opponent to react to the lasers, and he can punish their reactions to the lasers
but when you run in too far with a laser, isnt that like throwing your stock away against a good player? 1 grab as shiek or marth = offstage

sometimes you do want to approach with lasers though, as they can lead to grabs or shines. or over shooting a laser so you land behind your target which you can then convert into shield pressure.

as for the training mode combo thing. most stuff won't count as a true combo because it only takes into account their hit stun. after hitstun there is still a small window where they need to perform an action, which takes more time.

 

[Xyzz]

laser to shine / grab / (spaced) tilts is good.
laser to predictable shffl approach means you are playing people who haven't quite noticed it's 2013.

 

[SAUS]

laser to shine / grab / (spaced) tilts is good.
laser to predictable shffl approach means you are playing people who haven't quite noticed it's 2013.

Or new players :D Some new players that I met at my school can't touch my falco and think it's my most competitive character because they don't know what to do against anything he has. I try to tell them that Link is my best character but they just don't understand yet. They still have tons to learn.

Any tips on avoiding falco lasers as fox for newer players? This one guy at my local smashfests gets quite mad about them and it'd be nice to give him some advice that is better than "you just have to work around them".

 

[Xyzz]

Well, new players haven't quite arrived at the year 2013 ssbm meta game yet, too

fh nair is pretty good for fox, if he can do it in a spacing that let's him well, duh, avoid the laser and hit Falco.

 

[SAUS]

Well, new players haven't quite arrived at the year 2013 ssbm meta game yet, too

fh nair is pretty good for fox, if he can do it in a spacing that let's him well, duh, avoid the laser and hit Falco.

Haha that's true.

I think the biggest problem of teaching people is that it is not as simple as one action/answer to one problem. He's not even fighting my falco when he complains (well he still complains when I use my falco, but there are other falcos too). If I tell him to full hop nair over the lasers then his opponent will just adapt and probably still whoop his ass. I guess that's why everyone just tells him to work around them lol. I was definitely not born a teacher. I get impatient

 

[cjugs]

My neutral game is my weakest mode i know i need to laser but i think i end up giving away stage control when i do this because i find myself shooting with my back right up on the ledge, and then when i try to grab some stage control and shoot we are to close to laser and whats a good strategy vs Doc? His pills seem to give me grief and i'm having a hard time with fox falcon platform camping.

 

[Bones0]

My neutral game is my weakest mode i know i need to laser but i think i end up giving away stage control when i do this because i find myself shooting with my back right up on the ledge, and then when i try to grab some stage control and shoot we are to close to laser and whats a good strategy vs Doc? His pills seem to give me grief and i'm having a hard time with fox falcon platform camping.

I tend to only think of lasers as a way to limit my opponent's options. Most people these days are good enough vs. them that you cannot actively fight them with the lasers. You are not going to be able to SHL OoS when you're stuck in the corner and expect to capitalize even if the laser hits. If you're goal is to regain some stage control to improve your pool of options, you have to move. Even if you DD forward then back to where you started, you still regained stage control because you exerted pressure on the opponent. They have to respond to that dash forward or risk you SHFFLing right into them. If you can push the enemy back with an aggressive DD like that, you can then dash back towards the center and use more options. You can laser to keep them from trying to immediately regain the space they gave up, you can jump to the top plat to fight your way down instead of trying to play from 1/3rd or 1/4th stage length, you can continue to try to threaten their space with aggressive DDing, you can back off with your DD to catch them overcommitting into the space they thought you were trying to hold, etc.

If you are close to Doc, he doesn't really have enough time to use a pill. I do my best to avoid shielding pills because the #1 way Doc mains seem to capitalize off of pills isn't from direct hits, but rather from people running up and shielding them, and then they end up getting hit by FH pill, falling uair on shield/catching Falco's OoS option. Learn the bounce angle for pills and be comfortable moving around in the space right in front of it. Learn the multiple ways of diffusing pills with attacks, but make sure you aren't constantly jabbing or aerialing through pills unsafely. Usually you will just want to wait until after the pill bounces in front of you, and then you can push into his space before he will have time to use another (but you shouldn't be close enough to get hit by a uair). Also learn how to move around on plats to avoid pills. Unlike being on the ground where they bounce, you don't want to be right in front of the pill's landing spot, you want to be directly above it and maybe a little past that so you are as close to Doc as possible and the pill will bounce under you.

Pay attention to how your lasering affects their pill habits. If you laser them on the ground and they always FH pill into the center of the stage, then you can do something like preemptively FH after lasering them to come over top of their pill. There's too many situations to break down each one though. Just pay attention and try different routes towards him. Doc isn't so fast that you have to attack preemptively a lot, so feel free to work the positioning game, especially with your good FH and coming down from plats. I wouldn't, however, recommend straight up trying to camp with lasers because it makes you predictable and easier for them to setup pill traps where maybe their pill will bounce above your head and they can rush you as you sit under the side plat.

 

[otter]

waveshining is hard. Coming from an arcade stick, I hate having to compromise with my controller. B and Y seem so far away from each other!

 

[Xyzz]

You don't have to press all buttons with the same part of your thumb; e.g. you could always do something like this:

Spoiler

[/collapse ]

 

[cjugs]

I tend to only think of lasers as a way to limit my opponent's options. Most people these days are good enough vs. them that you cannot actively fight them with the lasers. You are not going to be able to SHL OoS when you're stuck in the corner and expect to capitalize even if the laser hits. If you're goal is to regain some stage control to improve your pool of options, you have to move. Even if you DD forward then back to where you started, you still regained stage control because you exerted pressure on the opponent. They have to respond to that dash forward or risk you SHFFLing right into them. If you can push the enemy back with an aggressive DD like that, you can then dash back towards the center and use more options. You can laser to keep them from trying to immediately regain the space they gave up, you can jump to the top plat to fight your way down instead of trying to play from 1/3rd or 1/4th stage length, you can continue to try to threaten their space with aggressive DDing, you can back off with your DD to catch them overcommitting into the space they thought you were trying to hold, etc.

If you are close to Doc, he doesn't really have enough time to use a pill. I do my best to avoid shielding pills because the #1 way Doc mains seem to capitalize off of pills isn't from direct hits, but rather from people running up and shielding them, and then they end up getting hit by FH pill, falling uair on shield/catching Falco's OoS option. Learn the bounce angle for pills and be comfortable moving around in the space right in front of it. Learn the multiple ways of diffusing pills with attacks, but make sure you aren't constantly jabbing or aerialing through pills unsafely. Usually you will just want to wait until after the pill bounces in front of you, and then you can push into his space before he will have time to use another (but you shouldn't be close enough to get hit by a uair). Also learn how to move around on plats to avoid pills. Unlike being on the ground where they bounce, you don't want to be right in front of the pill's landing spot, you want to be directly above it and maybe a little past that so you are as close to Doc as possible and the pill will bounce under you.

Pay attention to how your lasering affects their pill habits. If you laser them on the ground and they always FH pill into the center of the stage, then you can do something like preemptively FH after lasering them to come over top of their pill. There's too many situations to break down each one though. Just pay attention and try different routes towards him. Doc isn't so fast that you have to attack preemptively a lot, so feel free to work the positioning game, especially with your good FH and coming down from plats. I wouldn't, however, recommend straight up trying to camp with lasers because it makes you predictable and easier for them to setup pill traps where maybe their pill will bounce above your head and they can rush you as you sit under the side plat.

I guess i just have a mental block that is telling if i'm not shooting lasers i'm doing it wrong, because i noticed myself doing better when i really study falcon or fox and just use my lasers to control the ground game and force them to attack with FHFFL or some kind of air attack. Yeah i read PP's guide and he mentioned that the pills don't go as far as lasers so i can use them better but i guess i over did it because eventually he forced me to the end of the stage where it didn't matter. I'm a little confused on the part where you mentioned jump to the top plat like i literally just jump on it thats all? lol. I'm having a hard time comboing falcon i find that after a pillar or two he goes to high for my SH Dair to make contact and on YS after a shine he immediately lands on the top plat i guess the best option is to tech chase? Or do you guys not shine like a dtilt or something. I have a few videos of me VS falcon and fox that i would like to get some experts opinions on but i don't want to inconvenience and put them on the wrong thread, plus i'm not a big computer or video game guy do i post an actual video or just paste a link as a comment on a thread? Thank you very much for the advice bones it was very helpful.
P.S i am more then likely going to a local tounry saturday and every time i enter a tourny i've actually only been to one i get very very nervous like even dumb little tournys with my crew mates i get real nervous and i'd say i'm a tie for first in the crew or a very close seconf ( not that it matters none of us are typically good) but anyway i know i'm at least top eight material at this tourny but i'm nervous my jitters will end up giving me a poor performance which is silly i know because like i said i'm really not even that good what do you guys do about this or is this even a problem any of you have?

 

[Bones0]

I guess i just have a mental block that is telling if i'm not shooting lasers i'm doing it wrong, because i noticed myself doing better when i really study falcon or fox and just use my lasers to control the ground game and force them to attack with FHFFL or some kind of air attack. Yeah i read PP's guide and he mentioned that the pills don't go as far as lasers so i can use them better but i guess i over did it because eventually he forced me to the end of the stage where it didn't matter. I'm a little confused on the part where you mentioned jump to the top plat like i literally just jump on it thats all? lol. I'm having a hard time comboing falcon i find that after a pillar or two he goes to high for my SH Dair to make contact and on YS after a shine he immediately lands on the top plat i guess the best option is to tech chase? Or do you guys not shine like a dtilt or something. I have a few videos of me VS falcon and fox that i would like to get some experts opinions on but i don't want to inconvenience and put them on the wrong thread, plus i'm not a big computer or video game guy do i post an actual video or just paste a link as a comment on a thread? Thank you very much for the advice bones it was very helpful.
P.S i am more then likely going to a local tounry saturday and every time i enter a tourny i've actually only been to one i get very very nervous like even dumb little tournys with my crew mates i get real nervous and i'd say i'm a tie for first in the crew or a very close seconf ( not that it matters none of us are typically good) but anyway i know i'm at least top eight material at this tourny but i'm nervous my jitters will end up giving me a poor performance which is silly i know because like i said i'm really not even that good what do you guys do about this or is this even a problem any of you have?

Yeah, I meant just FHing to the top for certain situations because coming down off of plats is really good vs. Doc imo. He can't jump high enough to hit you without DJing, and his uair is usually so weak that if you do get nicked by it, it won't be as devastating as something like Ganon's or Marth's uair would be.

After a pillar or two, you should just be focused on getting Falcon off stage. Falco doesn't really have to worry about percent past a certain point vs. Falcon because the edgeguarding is pretty much the same. There's no reason to combo a Falcon up to 100% when you can knock him off at 80% and edgeguard him. If you want someone to critique your video, just post the YouTube link in this thread.

Everyone gets nervous. Most people get over it just by playing in a lot of tournaments, but there's tons of drastically different ways to address the problem if it continues to impede your performance. It is highly dependent on the person though, so I would google around for solutions to the particular type of nervousness you are feeling. Just as an example, some people are nervous about looking dumb, some have a hard time focusing, some end up developing self-fulfilling prophecies by convincing themselves they are going to lose before they even try, etc.

 

[SAUS]

You kind of just have to calm yourself down. You are going to get nervous no matter what, just breathe heavy and relax your muscles. Play more "stuff-on-the-line" games with your buddies (1$ money-match for instance) to practice playing with this stress. Just remember to breathe properly and that'll probably help a lot. That and focus on the game, not what's around you.

 

[cjugs]

http://www.twitch.tv/kneebashsmash/profile/pastBroadcasts
I hope that works yeah i guess i just dontwantto look like a scrubby falco espcially since right now i'm getttingowned by falcons.
The first three vids are of me i'm only falco player. Tell me if you guys think if i'm wding to fast also i think i'm over doing it now that i look back at it. I know it's long so if you guys don't want the whole thing just ne sure to watch me vs falcon vs fox would be great but i'm not going to be demanding ha. (edit) i also am a link main or was a link main i switched to falco 2 weeks ago to learn him so i'm completely open to all suggestions.

 

[cjugs]

When i bair usually to stop falcons nair i want to shine right after it of course i'm having a real hard time with it and now i'm noticing does nis bair auto cancel if you don't fast fall?

 

[Swann]

Yep

10startusingcommasplease?

 

[cjugs]

been trying all my life bra.

 

[Riio]

http://www.twitch.tv/kneebashsmash/profile/pastBroadcasts
I hope that works yeah i guess i just dontwantto look like a scrubby falco espcially since right now i'm getttingowned by falcons.
The first three vids are of me i'm only falco player. Tell me if you guys think if i'm wding to fast also i think i'm over doing it now that i look back at it. I know it's long so if you guys don't want the whole thing just ne sure to watch me vs falcon vs fox would be great but i'm not going to be demanding ha. (edit) i also am a link main or was a link main i switched to falco 2 weeks ago to learn him so i'm completely open to all suggestions.

Hey that's pretty impressive if you just picked up Falco two weeks ago man. Your combo game is good for your skill level (except for when you get stuck in shine and don't follow-up, definitely figure out why that's happening), but you should work on your movement, lasers, and defensive game IMO.

You approach with laser to nair too much and when your opponent is just sitting in shield you can try dash dancing near him to see what he does (a lot of times they'll do something you can just punish, like roll or throw out an attack hoping you'll run into it).

Your lasers kind of seem like an afterthought because you'll go an entire stock without shooting any lasers and then spam a bunch in a row before running in with a nair. Use your lasers to control your opponent's movement, work in more horizontal movement into your laser game (approaching lasers are good if they expect you to aerial because you'll be on top of their shield ready to begin shield pressure or grab, retreating lasers can catch opponents overextending), and work on mixing up your laser height (not quite as important but pretty vital against falcon, who you should shoot higher lasers against because your opponent naired over your lasers A BUNCH. watch out for side-b once you start shooting higher lasers though).

Wavedashing out of shield is a fantastic movement/defensive option and I don't remember you doing any, but you can use it offensively and defensively to space (i.e. run in and suddenly shield, then react. oftentimes ppl will react with an aerial high on your shield and you can punish). Keep it up!

 

[cjugs]

^ Thanks i really appreciate your time in critiquing my matches, getting stuck in my shine side bing offstage and lasers off stage i'm being told is a learning curve with falco ha lack of tech skill i suppose. Yeah i Get ####ed up hard but people who FH and then come on top of me when i whiff my move, i noticed he was nairing over me alot which of course was frustrating but i did know that a higher laser stops this and at my skill level i don't think many falcons will raptor boot under my lasers not to many top falcons do it either,( that i have seen on youtube) my laser are definetly an afterthought sometimes i end up knocking them out of their lag from a move i should have capitalized on, and i started to catch on to his nair but then he went fox. There will be a tourny tomorrow afternoon in Louisville so i should be able to get a good amount of falcon practice.

 

[ZetTroxX]

What to do against an insanly fast Fox? He´s dashdancing like crazy, powershields 5 out of 10 lasers and grabs me all the ****ing time. I do feel helpless against this style - being overwhelmed by the pure speed of Fox when he´s been played the right way...plz halp

 

[dRevan64]

What to do against an insanly fast Fox? He´s dashdancing like crazy, powershields 5 out of 10 lasers and grabs me all the ****ing time. I do feel helpless against this style - being overwhelmed by the pure speed of Fox when he´s been played the right way...plz halp

If you're getting powershielded that often, first off your opponent is real ****ing good, and second off he's reading your lasers. I feel like a hell of a lot of falcos have really specific lasering patterns that they get used to and then get punished for using.
If you have any videos of you playing this fox that'd help a ton too.

 

[cjugs]

What to do against an insanly fast Fox? He´s dashdancing like crazy, powershields 5 out of 10 lasers and grabs me all the ****ing time. I do feel helpless against this style - being overwhelmed by the pure speed of Fox when he´s been played the right way...plz halp

I have gotten beaten by this style fox as well the ones who spam text skill in my face. I read DR PeePees thread on fox and he mentioned delaying your lasers a fraction of a second like with standing a extra second, and also varying the laser height.

 

[K@$h]

empty hop> to WD> grab/something could probably work. especially if hes reading your ps'ing your lasers

 

[Battlecow]

Yo PP, do you feel like giving us the rundown on what you did right against Hbox this time? I always enjoy the after-tourney blurbs.

 

[BTmoney]

What to do against an insanly fast Fox? He´s dashdancing like crazy, powershields 5 out of 10 lasers and grabs me all the ****ing time. I do feel helpless against this style - being overwhelmed by the pure speed of Fox when he´s been played the right way...plz halp

To offer some input, if you're getting ps'd too often then shoot the lowest lasers you possibly can. I know at least vs Marth the lowest lasers have a 1 frame window to be ps'd while Marth can distort his body to gain something like up to an 8 frame window to ps when the lasers are high or he's in a certain position. Try taking the control out of your opponents hand.

Maybe also try developing your footsies and think about what you should be doing when you're not shooting lasers.
(whenever I feel like I'm getting rushed down the first thing I try to do is try to run away if that makes sense then gradually get more aggressive and start implement my offense and opposing myself over the other person, if that doesn't work I want to do something that allows me to influence the pace of the match, just to get a solid footing. If you're on your heels the whole match the first thing you should try to do is get off your heels.)

I like using auto cancel SH bairs because of the low lag and utilts vs aggressive people but I can't really explain to you well how to go about it. Ask around =]. Also remember that your FH is ******** and is an option when you're maneuvering.

Any tips on avoiding falco lasers as fox for newer players? This one guy at my local smashfests gets quite mad about them and it'd be nice to give him some advice that is better than "you just have to work around them".

full hop (super important, and easy), platforms, WD oos, and hitting falco

 

[whitemountain123]

hey PP congrats on your solid win over hbox this weekend!

kinda random, but you mentioned in the stream that you liked watching zhu when he's in shape. There's a pretty good set (two, actually, but I'm only linking the winners one) somewhat recently between him and PPU. To everybody struggling with the marth match-up, I feel like zhu is one of the best falcos vs. marth.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FfNAxCeKza4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZeO_KNvUPA0

I also have a question. How much of your play is player as opposed to character dependent? I'd imagine you can manage to play pretty standard against non-top players, but I'm curious because sometimes it feels like I have to play matchups super differently depending on how the person I'm playing against uses their char. I feel like the most noticeable time this comes up is vs. puff, given that it seems what helps me win vs. super bair-y buffs is different than ones who play more like darc or mango used to. Thoughts on this?

Edit: Riio sucks :D

 

[ZetTroxX]

I like using auto cancel SH bairs because of the low lag and utilts vs aggressive people but I can't really explain to you well how to go about it. Ask around =].

Yeah I think this might be a good tactic. Since Falco can´t keep up with Fox' speed maybe I should focus more on a passive-aggressive tactic. Like building up my zone with SH bairs and Up-tilts and mixing up the timing/spacing of those, punishing the Fox if he tries to rush me down.

I´ll try to record some matches this weekend.

 

[Fox128]

ZetTroxX:
Basically what I try to do against very aggressiv/fast Foxes:
-Try to zone them out using bairs (sometimes dash away sh ac bairs when I feel like he's approaching me, since this one is actually very save), lasers and utilts
-FH somewhat more often. It's like Fox' FH game beats Falcos SH game, but Falco FH kinda beats Fox FH. This is very situational tho
-DD a lot yourself. Even tho Falcos DD kinda sucks theoretically, in practical terms it still adds some difficulty for Fox to find that right approach-angle if you DD well.
-Also what I'm implementing now is having a better CC (to Shine) game. Seems to work wonders against aggressiv Foxes that rely too much on that run-down nair:
This is especially helpful against Foxes that FH nair a lot, which is actually the reason I thought more about CCing more in the first place (because I had problems dealing with that)... Like in thesituation where Fox FH nairs and you know you can't get away with DD/WD (since, again it's KINDA slow with Falco). Getting naired while sheilding sucks too... However, those Fox FH nairs are quite predictable and easy to react to and Fox won't even space them, since, heck he's Fox and thinks he always has the frameadventage no matter what.. so this can teach some Foxes a lesson.
Ofc if he instead goes more for dairs/bairs/uairs this is goind to be disasterous... you have to adapt.
Intercepting with uSmash OOS (and getting at least a trade if timed right usually) is also a possibility btw, but also very punishable if Fox just doublejumps while you expect a single FH... when crouching you still have all yours options which is nice
-Also obviously, just keep improving on Falcos awesome combogame and punish him just as hard as he does

 

[ZetTroxX]

I´d love to rely more on CC shine but this Fox knows about that himself and mostly just DD grabs me all the time. I feel very limited in my movement options vs this Fox.

Also, how is this FH-stuff supposed to work? As like a pure "zone-shifter" because Fox can´t get Falco because of his vertically speed?

Man - I lack of adaption knowledge .____.

 

[Fox128]

Yea then for you it's basically about zoning him out and forcing him to jump more... lasers (not too close), and DD inbetween them, and bairs. Utilts are more about making it hard for Fox to rely on his aerial game... utilts won't work at all against smart/fast Foxes that DD/grab a lot.

The FH thing is very situational like I said... it's just quite hard to punish by Fox, (since you can come down with aerials/use your DJ/and especially against DD-grab-happy Foxes you can also just Waveland away as a mixup and punish whiffed grabs) so you can just use this as a repositiong or passiv-pressuring tool...
But also particularily you can get lucky when he just FHed himself and you're above him, he is in a bad spot then imo.