PPMD's Falco Discussion Thread

[ZetTroxX]

Okay I think I´ll practise some defensive movement around the SH (ac) Bair. Mixups with empty hops, wavelands, DD, lasers. There´s also this one thing I saw from that one Falco...don´t know his name. He does this thing where he SH, does a very long waveland backwards and an instant SH Bair with movement in the same direction as the waveland, covering a large area on the ground superfast.

 

[Dr Peepee]

hey PP congrats on your solid win over hbox this weekend!

kinda random, but you mentioned in the stream that you liked watching zhu when he's in shape. There's a pretty good set (two, actually, but I'm only linking the winners one) somewhat recently between him and PPU. To everybody struggling with the marth match-up, I feel like zhu is one of the best falcos vs. marth.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FfNAxCeKza4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZeO_KNvUPA0

I also have a question. How much of your play is player as opposed to character dependent? I'd imagine you can manage to play pretty standard against non-top players, but I'm curious because sometimes it feels like I have to play matchups super differently depending on how the person I'm playing against uses their char. I feel like the most noticeable time this comes up is vs. puff, given that it seems what helps me win vs. super bair-y buffs is different than ones who play more like darc or mango used to. Thoughts on this?

Edit: Riio sucks :D

Thanks!

I think Zhu hasn't been in shape like he used to be, but he's very good to watch for fundamental play still.

Player vs character......one day I really need to dissect this question. Very good question!

It's really hard to separate those things for me. I put CHARACTERS in situations, but I look for the best responses that PEOPLE might pick there. And that, in short, is the basis of my game. I have studied people extensively, both smash-related and otherwise, and I have also studied the game to a high degree for Marth and Falco vs every character. When I put it together I have much more than anything separate.....and when I only have to worry about a few players that I am specifically studying I am certainly focusing hard on players....but it always leads me to conclusions about the game when I look at myself vs other players and their characters. It's so caught up in the other aspect I haven't considered it very much. I'm not sure, as a competitor, how much the distinction is worth making. I do know it's very fun to work out though. =)



Battlecow:

I have a TONNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNN I could write about. I have so much catching people up to do ever since I last wrote about KoC I believe it was. However, I think that TO9 does not give myself full justice to write it yet. I feel like I'm still improving and therefore haven't hit a high on what I'm working on right now so I'll wait until after or just before Apex perhaps.


My play against Hungrybox did not happen by accident. It was also not the product of my usual preparation. There was not a wealth of studying, practicing, and focusing myself beforehand. I did watch the videos of myself vs Hbox once during my finals, but it was not extensive. I got a feel for what happened and try to absorb anything new implicitly or broadly. I felt that in the game not much was different from usual. He still played fairly safe and when he was rapping he took more risks which I think is good for him. I could have dissected his risks but chose not to.

Instead, I watched it once and never looked again. I experimented with myself. How much could I learn watching one time and taking that away from it? How much would it affect my play?

I chose to put my time into myself and my ideas. I did something that for me personally has been difficult much of my life: working on myself. I brought up a lot of old theories I had and worked them back out. I played Twitch a little but was rough around the edges still. I haven't taken the best care of my body or mind but I put more effort into that. I changed how I viewed the game and began playing it more for fun and learning than for ego satisfaction(a never-ending battle, to be sure.) I went to Tipped Off 9 to have fun and to challenge myself as much as possible(why I entered P:M.)

This mindset paid off beautifully. I learned a ton about my new mind and how I now play in tournaments. I learned a lot about myself and my opponents. And I even played wonderfully vs Hungrybox when my body permitted. I am a bit irked that I only put that effort out from myself in WFs in teams and singles, but I am going to very seriously correct that about myself as that is disrespectful to my opponents and my own ability. I want to master myself and through that mastery my Melee game will greatly improve.

I know this is all abstract and not as......articulate as my usual updates, but that's just my state of being right now haha. I hope this is, if nothing else, an enjoyable read for others who still read here =)

 

[Bones0]

I know this is all abstract and not as......articulate as my usual updates, but that's just my state of being right now haha. I hope this is, if nothing else, an enjoyable read for others who still read here =)

Not that abstract, imo. I've been struggling with a lot of the same things after I played some of the worst Melee ever at Pound 5.5. I choked in pools (getting uthrow rested literally 5+ times in one set) and lost two MMs where I won game 1 and lost games 2 and 3. I finally pinned down inner dialogue as the source of my focus problem, so I've been looking into meditation and possibly trying to tap into some anger/aggression to stay in-the-moment when I play.

If you have some spare time, I would really appreciate a critique on my set vs. Carroll:

 

[whitemountain123]

Not that abstract, imo. I've been struggling with a lot of the same things after I played some of the worst Melee ever at Pound 5.5. I choked in pools (getting uthrow rested literally 5+ times in one set) and lost two MMs where I won game 1 and lost games 2 and 3. I finally pinned down inner dialogue as the source of my focus problem, so I've been looking into meditation and possibly trying to tap into some anger/aggression to stay in-the-moment when I play.

If you have some spare time, I would really appreciate a critique on my set vs. Carroll:

Hey Bones, I know you're probably looking for PP's critique, but here are a few things I noticed after a quick watch:

1) You do a bad dash attack on his shield several times throughout the set.
2) There are a bunch of situations in which you could shine oos (or even wd oos), but instead opt for grab or roll. That shine oos is huge vs fast fallers esp, as I'm sure you know it can lead into a fat combo (and makes the opponent question their approaches).
3) A few times when fox is at low percent you have the option of going for the standard dair shine dair shine, but instead go for something trickier and I think you end up losing some more guaranteed damage. I'd take the dair shine stuff unless you see he's amazing at sdi-ing it.
4) The last thing, and I don't know how to articulate this quite correctly, but I think you should think about your laser game vs. fox a bit more. I know you guys were fighting close-up for a lot of the set (which you usually won I think), but it seems you had trouble approaching from a mid distance. I saw the same spacing on your laser to aerial approach several times, and I don't think I saw any laser to grab or laser to shine grabs. Similarly, there were some situations in which he was pressuring you, and you almost always seemed to challenge him up close (which worked a bunch), but hardly ever tried to reset even when center stage was available and you could've regained control. To sum it up, I feel like you could've used lasers better to control fox and mix up your approaches.

Take all of this with a grain of salt considering my (lack of) skill level, but I hope that helps.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Bones:

Using anger is super risky and I'd advise against it for now. If you need video evidence, I suggest watching my matches at Zenith 2013 LOL.

You drop a ton of punishes on Caroll, tend to laser into approach or dash back into approach and this can get you hit pretty often since you're so geared on approaching. You also play pretty low to the ground and need more FH to evade and to laser.

 

[cjugs]

Bones:

Using anger is super risky and I'd advise against it for now. If you need video evidence, I suggest watching my matches at Zenith 2013 LOL.


You drop a ton of punishes on Caroll, tend to laser into approach or dash back into approach and this can get you hit pretty often since you're so geared on approaching. You also play pretty low to the ground and need more FH to evade and to laser.

Idk if this is something that is wrong or if anyone else finds this strat as well but although i enjoy watching pp zhu and Wes vs top players but honestly since they're top players i am not understanding the level of mindgames and setups that are going on. I typically find when i watch them kick the snot out of some scrub it works alot better for me like watching PP or mango vs some guy in pools idk if this is something that is just me or if that makes sense to anyone else, but like i said i still enjoy watching pp against good players.

I see a couple high level falcos on the ledge do like a dj backwards Fast fall grab the edge, am i right in guessing those are the inputs?

 

[Rocketpowerchill]

against good players, how do you mix up your approach?

also how far shud i space between me and my opponent so i can hit them and they cant hit me
i heard pp say something about 2 character lengths away, what does that mean and why is that the optimal spacing?

 

[SAUS]

also how far shud i space between me and my opponent so i can hit them and they cant hit me
i heard pp say something about 2 character lengths away, what does that mean and why is that the optimal spacing?

By 2 characters, picture 2 extra falcos in between you and your opponent. It's similar to saying something like "stay a car's distance behind the car in front of you while you are at a red light". Same deal, but using ssbm character sizes instead of cars. You don't want to be too close, but you don't want to be too far. You want to be close enough to punish them if they miss, but far enough that they can't just hit you with stuff.

Mixing up your approach depends on how you play. How do you normally approach? What are other good approaches? Which other approach can complement your "main" approach the best (basically it should punish the answers to your main approach).
Mixing up = being unpredictable intentionally (you could be unpredictable by spamming all the buttons randomly, but then you would just lose)
You basically want to make sure they have to react to what you are doing so that they can't just use the best counter-measure to defeat you.

 

[Xyzz]

Unpredictably spamming techskill into people gets you pretty far though :D

 

[SAUS]

Unpredictably spamming techskill into people gets you pretty far though :D

lol yes. This is why my newbie friends think Falco is my best character >.< damnit gaiz

 

[knoxvader]

Sup Falco mains. I was wondering how the heck to time really low short-hop-fast-fall-lasers as Falco. I used to be pretty good at it, but now picking Falco back up again, I think I've gotten into a bad habit of being okay with fairly high lasers, which can really mess me up.

Do I input B after I FF?

Edit: Thinking about it now, I think I can answer my own question. Of course one must shoot the laser after fast-falling to get it down lower. I suppose I just need to work on shooting within window into which the low lasers fit.

 

[ToTs]

I'm curious, does anyone use tap jump when wave shining or do you just use the buttons? It seems faster with tap but less consistent. More consistent pushing Y but it feels weird, plus I don't play claw, and I Wavedash with R. So my right hand does pretty much everything.

 

[Xyzz]

Sup Falco mains. I was wondering how the heck to time really low short-hop-fast-fall-lasers as Falco. I used to be pretty good at it, but now picking Falco back up again, I think I've gotten into a bad habit of being okay with fairly high lasers, which can really mess me up.

Do I input B after I FF?

Edit: Thinking about it now, I think I can answer my own question. Of course one must shoot the laser after fast-falling to get it down lower. I suppose I just need to work on shooting within window into which the low lasers fit.

You spend about three more frames or so in the air after fastfalling, there isn't going to be a laser if you hit b after doing that. To shoot low lasers you need to jump > wait for it > laser > FF as soon as reaching the apex of your jump. The "wait for it" is the timing you want to vary to get higher or lower lasers (the longer you wait the lower the laser is going to be, obviously.)

I'm curious, does anyone use tap jump when wave shining or do you just use the buttons? It seems faster with tap but less consistent. More consistent pushing Y but it feels weird, plus I don't play claw, and I Wavedash with R. So my right hand does pretty much everything.

People can do pretty much anything technical you could imagine with their right hand only. That being said, you always need to find the input method that's most natural / comfortable / efficient for YOU for yourself. It's been heard of people who really wavedash by tabjumping, most people do it using X -> R

 

[Varist]

I was under the impression most people wavedashed with L and Y.

PP, I'm pretty demoralized right now and I think you're the perfect man to help me.

I switch characters a lot on the road to finding which one will bring me the most success and for the moment I'm back at Falco. I play with some guys every weekend on the other side of the city and for the most part they don't take me very seriously because I have a habit of ****ing up my tech skill and getting 0-deathed, even if I read them better than they read me.

So I switched to Falco to alleviate that problem by doing 2-3 hour drills of basic tech everyday in conditions like cold room, hot room with sweaty hands, putting something I know will burn in the oven downstairs and trying to finish a 20-stock match under similar stress and pressure that a serious match would bring and seeing whether or not I'm still crumbling into ****ed up tech.

All's going well and stuff, so I decide before I bust out my Falco at the next smashfest I'm gonna get some little brother training going. I always wreck my brother. I really demolish him, but that's because he's a kid who doesn't know any tech and I know tech and have been practicing playing not-on-autopilot.

That's enough preface. Here's the meat. While I can four stock his Ness and his Fox, when he picks Marth it's like nothing I do matters and I haven't gotten any better.

This is what he does as Marth. He's a dumb kid so I've got it to a science. If I short hop into an aerial he will always shield, and he will always attempt to shield grab right after. Half the time he just gets me. So it's impossible to dair a shielded marth and I should give up pressuring him because I get grabbed every time. If I'm a certain distance away he'll dash attack me. If I ever full hop and land behind him he'll immediately F smash. That kind of stuff. Really simpleminded, "okay, you're there, I'll use this move".

And no matter how good I'm playing it always seems to come down to last stock last hit. He doesn't even up-throw, he just gets random f-smashes that take me off the stage at 40%. He catches me with forward air constantly. He's just always swatting and if I shield too much he just waits and if I try to wavedash out of shield or jump OOS I eat a tipper up smash. I know I can just roll, he doesn't know how to deal with that. But I don't want that to be my "Marth strategy", just always shielding and rolling, because I know that's not going to cut it.

I just used all those paragraphs to say this one thing, and that's please christ don't let me switch characters again just because random pocket marths can **** all over me. This is why I had to stop playing Jiggs, and stop playing Fox. There existed just one character that I crumbled against. And everyone's going on about "Falco has best match-up spread tied with Fox but Falco has lasers so it's easymode". Is it really? Because Marth is a ****ing ****lord character please help

 

[dRevan64]

I thought most people wavedashed with y and R. You guys clearly are all incorrect and I am normal and proper.

@Varist A long, long time ago I actually used to have this problem with my little brother's roy (little brother training is unambiguously the best training) and I found that there's a really good way to handle people with no tech skill who use the most basic and effective option available to them at any time.

Notice what your brother is doing when he's shield grabbing you. Is he waiting for you to land with the dair or nair or whatever else? Is he waiting until after you shine? Or is he doing that thing that bad players do where they just mash A in shield? Because if he's playing as simply as it sounds you have options against all 3 of those.
If he's grabbing when you land, you just shine and then get out of his grab range. Or you mix up the time when you actually input your aerial–autocancelling dair instead of l cancelling it–so he has more shield stun than he expects. Wavedashing behind a marth in shield makes it real hard for him to touch you. If he's waiting for your shine, don't. Dair his shield and run away and shoot your gun at his face. And if he's mashing gra it should be even easier since you can just wait until the grab comes out and then kick him in and around the mouth.

That said, that doesn't seem to solve the fundamental problem you have playing him which is that you get punished constantly on reaction. What that generally means is that as much as you've internalized all the options he uses, he's internalized all of yours as well. And you're using them predictably enough that he can recognize in any given situation what you're going to choose to do. The biggest part of solving this fundamental problem is patience and I bet I know why you're having a hard time with it.

You're better than your brother is. You know how to press all the buttons to make the cool things happen on the screen, he doesn't. So you feel like you should just be able to run in and press your buttons and win because he doesn't know how to do that. But that doesn't work against marth because he has a big sword and long arms, so he hits you in the face even when he's bad. That's where patience comes in. The marth matchup is fundamentally (if I'm going to oversimplify vastly complex issues here for the sake of convenience) about making the marth press a button so you can punish him for it, and that applies even against the lowest level of marth. Any noob can fsmash. That's why the key you're missing here is that most basic step to dealing with marth: make him **** up first. With falco, you do that mostly by dash dancing and shooting your gun at him. For reference, look at how Zhu plays this game: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V6eqa850P1I
Match is obviously a little dated but it's good because it doesn't just show off everything Zhu did right, it also shows really really obviously when he ****s up since he's playing m2k and ****ing up means he gets grabbed and dies. That's probably not quite what happens when you screw up against your brother but the principle is the same.

 

[Varist]

you're a really good writer dRevan. I wrote my post because I'm a little ***** and I was just looking for someone to say some miracle words that would make it easy but I don't like accepting that it's just a gay match up.

I guess the only thing I can do is just ask for the best Falco v Marth videos, old and new to understand the goals of the Falco in the match up I guess, because right now my idea of it is "try to laser him until he gets close enough to where it's unsafe, don't hit his shield directly, wait for him to do something with lag on it and go in on his ass. hope this happens soon enough that i don't forfeit too much stage"

because when I lose stocks is always when he gets me to where it's my back to the edge and he's standing just within F smash tipper range. I have to shield, and then I can't do anything. i get shield stabbed or tipped out of a jump, and I know the best way to turn around a situation like this is simply to roll in, but Falco's roll isn't long enough to get behind marth and since he's my little brother he usually just buffers another F smash to catch the frames that aren't invulnerable. I'm sure a better marth would just grab.

As helpful as the shield pressure stuff is, my idea of how to shield pressure with Falco has been aerial them and land as far as possible from their shield, or aerial them close to their shield and shine when I land. But against my brother I guess I'm just using an aerial too soon because he always grabs me the in between time of my aerial hitting his shield, and then me touching the ground at his shield and prepping the shine. And I don't know **** about how to auto cancel things, oh jesus

 

[dRevan64]

Yeah, if you're giving up stage positioning you're beating yourself way more than he's beating you. The sword is scary man everyone who's ever played a marth knows how it feels to get tippered out of nowhere.

The moment you're on the edge of the stage in your shield and marth is in tipper or grab range he is really just winning the matchup right there.

Explanation of auto cancelling here: http://www.ssbwiki.com/Auto-canceling
It just functions as using the aerial towards the very end of your jump, at least for falco. The nice thing about auto cancelling is the "auto" part–you don't actually have to do anything you wouldn't do anyway, just at a different moment. And even if you have trouble with that, just using your aerial much later and l cancelling is fine since auto cancel timing isn't super easy. Edit: I think everything I was saying about ACing doesn't actually apply here, it's just l cancelling much later. Pretend I didn't say that, ignore it, I'm dumb.
If you aerial his shield early marth has a year and a half to get out his grab before you can shine. Marth loves that.

 

[Varist]

fk that's the trick i gotta aerial late

all right i'm gonna practice shield pressure now

In my heart is still the most beautiful dream

 

[Bones0]

Bones:

Using anger is super risky and I'd advise against it for now. If you need video evidence, I suggest watching my matches at Zenith 2013 LOL.

You drop a ton of punishes on Caroll, tend to laser into approach or dash back into approach and this can get you hit pretty often since you're so geared on approaching. You also play pretty low to the ground and need more FH to evade and to laser.

LOL, well I wasn't thinking about a sort of rage mentality, more alone the lines of a cold, calculated sort of anger. I know in other games when I've been a little pissed off I've played ridiculously good, but I never really thought about why that made me better at the time. I will keep it in the back of my mind not to get carried away with it and just abandon the idea completely if it doesn't seem to be working out.

Rewatching, I'm surprised how telegraphed my approaches were in terms of dashing back, then dashing forward into a laser/aerial. Should I be doing more WDs towards the opponents or simply dashing forward after lasers instead of adding in that extra DD? I actually started consciously adding in a lot of dash aways after lasers because when I would play Peaches and Sheiks I would laser them and get bopped by an OoS option trying to go in too soon. Is the solution to simply space the laser differently in the first place so I can sit still and wait safely, or do spacie matchups just tend to promote more aggressive movement after lasers than floaty matchups? Also, if you could talk about balancing the need to hold bottom mid with the usage of plats, I think that would help me figure out when to use them. Sometimes I jump up onto plats, but then it just feels like I lost stage control because I'm not able to stay under them with utilt, bair, and uair. Do you FH mostly to avoid getting pinned in the corner, or is it a way of drawing the opponent into a certain area so they have to guess between you landing on the top plat, side plat, or dipping back underneath the side plat? There seems to be no method to the madness.

I just used all those paragraphs to say this one thing, and that's please christ don't let me switch characters again just because random pocket marths can **** all over me. This is why I had to stop playing Jiggs, and stop playing Fox. There existed just one character that I crumbled against. And everyone's going on about "Falco has best match-up spread tied with Fox but Falco has lasers so it's easymode". Is it really? Because Marth is a ****ing ****lord character please help

Your first mistake was trying to pick a character based on what you think matchups are and going so far as to abandon two characters because you felt you had a single bad matchup with each...

Your second mistake was not being able to shield fsmash on reaction.

Your third mistake is you probably don't bait attacks often enough. Try DDing just inside of his tipper range and then right back out before he can hit you. If he attacks, you get a free approach. If he doesn't, then that means you could have hit him or at least forced him to back up. He shouldn't be able to just sit still and fsmash on reaction, and even stuff like running up into shield and then WDing out to punish should be super effective vs. any sort of sword swinging.

You also list a bunch of stuff that is easily beaten by being less predictable. If he shields every time you jump at him, empty hop into shine or grab. Cross him up or laser into shine. You can shine on his shield and DJ WL onto a plat. You can late aerial or at least FF to get shine out soon enough. The ideal SHFFL for approaches is usually getting it so you buffer the FF input (3 frame window), but have the attack hit their shield right as you start FFing. If you actually start the FF before you aerial, your aerial won't come out because you'll reach the ground first, and if you start the FF after you aerial, the hitlag will prevent your input from going through. This is easy to practice on a level 9 Bowser with handicap though, so no johns for messing up vs. people. Also, you should be using nair for shield pressure more than dair. It has better frame advantage (I forget the exact number, but we were just talking about it a few pages ago). Not only does it have less landing lag, but the hitbox doesn't stick out below you like dair's does meaning you will land sooner after your aerial hits his shield.

If you get shield poked because you're trapped at the ledge in his tipper range, light shield instead. This buys you WAY more time, you pretty much won't ever get shield poked (especially with shield tilting), and if he tips your shield you slide onto the ledge. The fact that you have more time means he is less likely to correctly predict when you will WD OoS onto the ledge (which is what you should be doing most of the time).

 

[Varist]

Bones0 knowledge

definitely lots of good advice in here but I have some vacuum-ish questions that if I can get a clear answer on will help me shape what I'm supposed to be doing in this match-up besides just baiting things

Your third mistake is you probably don't bait attacks often enough. Try DDing just inside of his tipper range and then right back out before he can hit you. If he attacks, you get a free approach. If he doesn't, then that means you could have hit him or at least forced him to back up.

All right, this is definitely the biggest thing to do against bad Marths. The problem is, while I'm spending a second or two dashing in and out of his tipper range, it isn't like he's standing still. He's slowly creeping toward me. Falco's dash dance isn't long enough to respond to something like that, you know how fast Marth's walk is. So what happens is I have to wavedash. That gives me special land lag. Which makes it harder to shield F smash on reaction, because some of those frames just aren't usable. And this is what leads to the scenario of him taking stage from me as he moves. I feel like to get stage back I have to do really risky things like just man up and go through him when he isn't expecting it or strange platform waveland acrobatics, and all he has to do is walk forward kind of slow. It sucks

I like the "run in and shield" tactic, but every time I run in and do it, I don't know if it's just because he's a relaxed player but he's just like "fine i'll grab you". I have tried the run up shield to bait attack plenty of times in random spots, and at first it was pretty telegraphed, but I gradually improved and even tried things like empty hopping into it. He just doesn't take that bull ****, he nudges forward a little and grabs me from fiddy miles away.

You can shine on his shield and DJ WL onto a plat.

I would never want to do this against a marth i'm literally seeing red already

Also, you should be using nair for shield pressure more than dair. It has better frame advantage (I forget the exact number, but we were just talking about it a few pages ago). Not only does it have less landing lag, but the hitbox doesn't stick out below you like dair's does meaning you will land sooner after your aerial hits his shield.

this is tangible, helpful information. Whenever I space nair I usually land a little too far away and my shine doesn't connect but maybe that just comes with the territory of having a slippery opponent, I guess "get good" is all that can really be said on that. I spent like a week drillshining shield with Fox for my shield pressure so now dair shine with Falco has just been my go to shield pressure. Thanks for reminding me nair exists that actually makes me very optimistic.

If you get shield poked because you're trapped at the ledge in his tipper range, light shield instead.

Wow this is unfortunate. When I dropped Fox I decided I wasn't going to be doing any Fox mirror matches so I could sacrifice light shield in favor of tighter L cancels and no more buffered light shield after a waveland or l-cancel or something gay like that. So I took the light shielding off my L button. Looks like I'll need to use R sometimes.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Bones:

Your ideas are good for changing your approach game. I highly suggest messing with them, they all worked for me when I used them appropriately =)

As for FH, you need the vertical mixup because Falco controls the ground so well with his lasers and this makes people go high. Continuing to fight on the ground after forcing your opponent to move upward is a big mistake many Falcos seem to make now. It's okay to bait them to come in, and they usually will eventually, but it may be more on their terms. As a mixup if nothing else, learning to take advantage of Falco's quick vertical ascent and how high he can actually get is the next step in the fighting the opponent.

Just remember that you can't always go get them right away in this position. Falco is generally weaker here since he doesn't have a laser covering him. He needs a quick rise and strong Bair/Dair to keep him safe and also threaten the opponent. Mess around with getting above people and FF'ing vs not FF'ing(among other mixups). You will often find that FF'ing into people doesn't work and FF'ing away is quite successful for example.

What I've done to learn to fight on multiple heights is become comfortable on the side platform. Becoming adept at lasering there, speeding up lasers there, covering multiple escape options/especially the ground there, I find that to be quite potent.

Top platform use is different but also great because of how quickly FH gets you there(and options obtained there). I suggest getting up there and observing your options from this position. As spacies, I think we kind of tend to fear platforms since we usually get comboed on them, but it turns out we are really good on them as well and should learn to love them haha.

 

[Problem2]

Dr Peepee is right. The top platform is my best friend as Falco.

 

[ToTs]

I think I just gotta keep practicing with the right hand. Tap jump seems situational like shine bair or whatever.

 

[knoxvader]

You spend about three more frames or so in the air after fastfalling, there isn't going to be a laser if you hit b after doing that. To shoot low lasers you need to jump > wait for it > laser > FF as soon as reaching the apex of your jump. The "wait for it" is the timing you want to vary to get higher or lower lasers (the longer you wait the lower the laser is going to be, obviously.)

oh my god that's so much easier. thanks for helping me out!

 

[Swann]

Bones, can you go into a little more technical depth on the buffer window for inputting a FF, and step through a couple of shield pressure scenarios? I didn't even know it existed, and after my break from smash (over now that school has ended), I'm finding I miss a lot of FF inputs. Lately I've just been dancing around shields and threatening with spacing and pokes as much as possible after realizing that I really stink at all-in pressure. Thanks in advance.

 

[Bones0]

Bones:

Your ideas are good for changing your approach game. I highly suggest messing with them, they all worked for me when I used them appropriately =)

As for FH, you need the vertical mixup because Falco controls the ground so well with his lasers and this makes people go high. Continuing to fight on the ground after forcing your opponent to move upward is a big mistake many Falcos seem to make now. It's okay to bait them to come in, and they usually will eventually, but it may be more on their terms. As a mixup if nothing else, learning to take advantage of Falco's quick vertical ascent and how high he can actually get is the next step in the fighting the opponent.

Just remember that you can't always go get them right away in this position. Falco is generally weaker here since he doesn't have a laser covering him. He needs a quick rise and strong Bair/Dair to keep him safe and also threaten the opponent. Mess around with getting above people and FF'ing vs not FF'ing(among other mixups). You will often find that FF'ing into people doesn't work and FF'ing away is quite successful for example.

What I've done to learn to fight on multiple heights is become comfortable on the side platform. Becoming adept at lasering there, speeding up lasers there, covering multiple escape options/especially the ground there, I find that to be quite potent.

Top platform use is different but also great because of how quickly FH gets you there(and options obtained there). I suggest getting up there and observing your options from this position. As spacies, I think we kind of tend to fear platforms since we usually get comboed on them, but it turns out we are really good on them as well and should learn to love them haha.

OMG, okay, definitely had a revelation. That was a great explanation, thanks. You added a whole new dimension to my game (literally).

Bones, can you go into a little more technical depth on the buffer window for inputting a FF, and step through a couple of shield pressure scenarios? I didn't even know it existed, and after my break from smash (over now that school has ended), I'm finding I miss a lot of FF inputs. Lately I've just been dancing around shields and threatening with spacing and pokes as much as possible after realizing that I really stink at all-in pressure. Thanks in advance.

The tricky part is managing your FF input around hitlag. You can input your FF during hitlag, but only during the last 2 frames because then the buffer will carry over the third FF input frame after hitlag ends and the input will go through. The really hard timing that I THINK exists is the earliest aerial that hits after you've started FFing. You input the FF right before you reach the peak of your jump and time your aerial input so that it connects with their shield the frame AFTER you start FFing. So keeping in mind you reach your SH peak (and are first able to begin your FF) on frame 14, I believe you would want to INPUT the FF on frame 11-13 and INPUT the aerial on frame 12.

This will make you start FFing on frame 14, then the next frame (15) your nair/bair will hit their shield. Nair and bair hit frame 4, so if you want to do this with dair which hits frame 5, you would obviously input it on 11 instead of 12. So essentially, you want to input the FF and aerial at the same time, but if you are nairing (and consequently can't use the C-stick), you would have to input your FF on 11, release the stick and nair on 12. I think Mango usually does a dair after initially beginning pressure on people because it allows him to get the aerial out asap while still getting the FF before the aerial, but I have no way of knowing for sure. Idk if getting the FF frame before dairing would even make much of a difference, but there are some examples in this vid @ 2:00 and 3:50 (even though PP actually gets the shine OoS).

 

[Rocketpowerchill]

i always thought when falcos beat up on eachothers shields that it was kinda 50-50 and the one stuck in shield could still get out with shine oos

so if you fastfall before you do your arial do you gain some sort of slight frame advantage upon hitting their shield?

 

[Bones0]

i always thought when falcos beat up on eachothers shields that it was kinda 50-50 and the one stuck in shield could still get out with shine oos

so if you fastfall before you do your arial do you gain some sort of slight frame advantage upon hitting their shield?

I don't believe in 50-50s.

 

[Purpletuce]

Dittos and coin flips are all lies!

I don't feel like checking the numbers, but I'm pretty sure I either read this from a source I trust or checked myself. . .

If you late aerial (hitbox comes out immediately before you hit the ground) on shield -> shine, assuming everything is relatively fresh, you have an advantage if they try to act before you can shine.

If you shine into early aerial(start aerial as soon as you leave the ground), assuming everything is relatively fresh, you have an advantage if they try to act before you can early aerial.

So if you:
1. Shine >>> 2. Early aerial >>> 3. shine >>> 4. Late aerial >>> 5. Shine >>> 6. Late aerial >>> 7. Shine >>> 8. Early aerial

You are at a disadvantage if they try to act between (2 and 3), (3 and 4), and (5 and 6).
You are at an advantage if they try to act between (1 and 2), (4 and 5), (6 and 7), and (7 and 8).

 

[Rocketpowerchill]

it makes sense when you can hit an opponents shield without harm and when theres clear disadvantage.
kinda like a jump ball in basketball

pp kinda wrecks in these situations tho imo cuz if he ever dairs on shield, it is a late dair which he can instantly react to and shine grab or just wavedash the heck outta there

good reads all, i feel i can do something more than just take all this pressure from falco now
also why dont people shield di stuff like dairs and shines?
theoretically sdi the pillar in shield makes falco whiff and look ********, than you kill him for being in landing lag GGs

 

[Purpletuce]

Not sure what you're talking about with the first paragraph, but if all you do is come in with late aerials, you're very susceptible to preemptive attacks, like Nairs OOS.

I think if you shield DI, in practice you won't get very far, and Falco can notice as you're going and just advance with his Dair.

 

[KP17]

Hey dr. pp + others,

can I get a critique on some friendlies with druggedfox yesterday?
I play rooktionary for a few friendlies at the start, then I play dfox at 28:12 here: http://www.twitch.tv/rooktionary/b/489014695

can I also get a critique vs flaminroy from tipped off 9?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ITS5A_zDgLk

thanks!

 

[Rocketpowerchill]

Not sure what you're talking about with the first paragraph, but if all you do is come in with late aerials, you're very susceptible to preemptive attacks, like Nairs OOS.

I think if you shield DI, in practice you won't get very far, and Falco can notice as you're going and just advance with his Dair.

oh i guess i didnt understand before how fast shieks nair oos really is lol
ill just work on mixing up my approaches, ty

 

[Twilight Emblem]

I am still 11/10 interested in knowing the following information.








I need to know the max number of each aerial falco can do per minute/10 seconds whatever/ on

A. Open space
B. Ledge canceled
C. When hitting an opponent.

Any additional speed data you want to compile feel free to.

I can't find this info anywhere and I really want to see what the speed limits are for falco. If anybody can get an emulator/AR and test this I would love you forever. Thanks. I'd like to know this ASAP and if anybody does this please contact me via PM/anyoptionOnthisearth so I can know. thanks.


Dr.PP- Thanks for the helpful write up there. If you ever want to talk more falco with me my PMs are open. Your insights on this character are fantastic and help me improve thus making the game a lot more fun for me. This drives my motivation as a player and helps develop me. I'm eager to hear any additional discussion on falco and if you want to, my PMs are always open to hear what you have to say. You can send 100 wall texts and i'll gladly read them all.

RocketPowerChill- You still haven't shared what you actually try to do when you are practicing to get better at your game. If you can go into EXTREME detail and tell us everything you're doing right now to get better we can take that list and know what you are NOT doing and then advise you on things you need to practice on.

 

[Bones0]

I am still 11/10 interested in knowing the following information.

I need to know the max number of each aerial falco can do per minute/10 seconds whatever/ on

A. Open space
B. Ledge canceled
C. When hitting an opponent.

Any additional speed data you want to compile feel free to.

I can't find this info anywhere and I really want to see what the speed limits are for falco. If anybody can get an emulator/AR and test this I would love you forever. Thanks. I'd like to know this ASAP and if anybody does this please contact me via PM/anyoptionOnthisearth so I can know. thanks.


Dr.PP- Thanks for the helpful write up there. If you ever want to talk more falco with me my PMs are open. Your insights on this character are fantastic and help me improve thus making the game a lot more fun for me. This drives my motivation as a player and helps develop me. I'm eager to hear any additional discussion on falco and if you want to, my PMs are always open to hear what you have to say. You can send 100 wall texts and i'll gladly read them all.

RocketPowerChill- You still haven't shared what you actually try to do when you are practicing to get better at your game. If you can go into EXTREME detail and tell us everything you're doing right now to get better we can take that list and know what you are NOT doing and then advise you on things you need to practice on.

5 frames of jumpsquat + 17 frames before landing + 7 frames of nair landing lag

You probably have time for 1-1.5 nairs in the beginning before the clock starts, and the rest is math. Trying to calculate ledgecanceled nairs seems silly since I think it's so impossible to get the ledgecancel without sliding off, nair again, and get another ledge cancel with what little drift Falco has to work with. If you're hitting an opponent, all you have to do is add hitlag and compensate for staling, but idk how much base hitlag nair has (I think it's based off of damage, but idk if there's a source that gives those values like with shield stun).

 

[Rocketpowerchill]

I am still 11/10 interested in knowing the following information.
RocketPowerChill- You still haven't shared what you actually try to do when you are practicing to get better at your game. If you can go into EXTREME detail and tell us everything you're doing right now to get better we can take that list and know what you are NOT doing and then advise you on things you need to practice on.

lol im bad at explaining things in general, but right now in smash for me theres one thing to do and one thing only and thats play Hella

i have good techskill now but it doesnt match well with my current skill level
my plan for 2014 is to go to every event in md and get to a couple non-random oos stuff like apex (we in there)

 

[Varist]

I finished up the Marth matchup.

I leave for PA tomorrow but I'll be sure to look over questions/votes for the next matchup(if Mogwai and I aren't working on them by then)/people telling me I suck/etc when I get back(the 28th).

pls add 2013-2014 marth knowledge to marth matchup guide pp im beg

 

[cjugs]

I watched mango go over his matches with PP are, are there any other top level players who narrow in on matches like that? Doesn't have to be with falco or against falco but i'm curious. Also i'm getting pretty good at multi shining but is it possible i am hitting shine to fast? Sometimes i swear i hit B and Down but falco just jumps. How viable is double lasers off the edge i almost never see pp do this but mango does it alot i get gimped every time though.

 

[Bones0]

I watched mango go over his matches with PP are, are there any other top level players who narrow in on matches like that? Doesn't have to be with falco or against falco but i'm curious. Also i'm getting pretty good at multi shining but is it possible i am hitting shine to fast? Sometimes i swear i hit B and Down but falco just jumps. How viable is double lasers off the edge i almost never see pp do this but mango does it alot i get gimped every time though.

All the critiques I've seen that were from top players were on Melee It On Me, so just watch all their videos. I know Mango also goes over M2K vs. Hbox. PP and Armada critiqued matches they played vs. each other.

It's totally possible you're hitting B too soon. You have to be frame perfect, so if you're a frame too early you will just jump and if you're a frame late you will shine in the air and have to DJ.

LHDLs can be very helpful but also very dangerous. I guess you could say they are... double edged lasers...

Basically, don't use them if the opponent is close enough to hit you. People are good at grabbing in between them these days, so even LHDL into shine isn't reliable like it used to be. Ledgedash is highly recommended as a substitute.

 

[Swann]

To add on that, if you're going to LHDL, make sure they're low lasers unless you're actively trying to intercept something high.