PPMD's Falco Discussion Thread

[FrootLoop]

PP showed that he was capable of resetting the match, there's no doubt in my mind that he's still top 3 in the world.

no hate to PP, but how is getting 6-1'd show him to be capable of winning a best of 5? At least they were pretty close. Hype for rematch.

 

[noobird]

Mainly it was just mango controlling the pace of the match. but pp was also getting hit off the ledge a lot. don't think i saw a single ledgedash (?). anyway we must believe!

 

[Dart!]

Yeah didn't see a lot of depth in peepees recovery in singles, he'll bounce back.

 

[JPOBS]

no ledgedash, no platform wavelands, very few double lasers. a ton of side-b into the middle of the stage

i was like, wtf is going on.

 

[FrootLoop]

mango forced him high a lot at least in the beginning. PP recovered successfully a lot, but mango covered the edge almost every time. Later in the set(s) mango covered the stage instead and caught PP for days.

 

[noobird]

no ledgedash, no platform wavelands, very few double lasers. a ton of side-b into the middle of the stage

i was like, wtf is going on.

reminded me of pp in the old days (not so old but yeah). i remember the first match i watched of pp every one of his recoveries was a side-b.

yeah mango ended up punishing all those side-b's. on another note it seemed like there were a lot of missed edgeguards but that's probably due to nerves. and the di on those low percent fsmashes >.>

 

[-ShadowPhoenix-]

I am so anxious to hear PP's thoughts on his matches with M2K. M2K looked like he had enough heart to pull it through for a little while there.

i honestly thought m2k was going to win vs pp. he started out really strong in both sets
but pp pulled it out.

imo, pp is a rank below armada and mango right now. hopeflly he'll be super motivated to run it back at apex.

That set restored my faith in M2k. He still has the potential to overcome Falco and be the best. I hope he keeps improving on his anti-falco game.

 

[SUNG475]

Hiya, 2 questions

1. If I SHFFL Nair immediately after jumping say...against a shielded sheik, if the nair hits her shield right before I land and I FF L cancel shine, will she be able to shield grab me? (I started doing this in friendlies today and was not able to get shield grabbed...or so it seems)

2. What's the best way to practice wd oos when something hits your shield? (something that I guess replicates sheik/peach's D smash) cause I want to practice it alone

 

[FoxLisk]

no ledgedash, no platform wavelands, very few double lasers. a ton of side-b into the middle of the stage

i was like, wtf is going on.

i noticed that too, but the punishes mango got on the deep side-Bs were generally not fatal. i wondered if PP was choosing to get grabbed/daired and take his chances rather than do something that might open him up to more efficient punishes.

 

[V]

Hey guys I'm a former brawl player and I'm quitting for good to play melee. I've been playing Marth for a while but I'm going to pick up Falco too. I didn't see a general discussion thread so I figured this was the closest thing to it and I thought I'd introduce myself. So another one that's found the light!

 

[Veetaak]

looking forward to the vids
had to sleep early

 

[Battlecow]

besides being from the same country what does armada's placement have to do with leffen? its not like leffen is the one winning a major

Leffen talks a lot of **** and is generally an obnoxious person. Also he's on Armada's **** in the same way that I'm on America's ****, so if my **** beats his **** I win the cockfight.

 

[choknater]

Hey guys I'm a former brawl player and I'm quitting for good to play melee. I've been playing Marth for a while but I'm going to pick up Falco too. I didn't see a general discussion thread so I figured this was the closest thing to it and I thought I'd introduce myself. So another one that's found the light!

so much amazingness in this post

anyway

concerning rom 4 finals

it seems that pp has in his mind a game plan that he wants to execute. mango, on the other hand, has a lot of experience and intuition in spacie matchups and simply reacted to any opening that pp had. this is how mango himself says he plays. i saw pp going for random attacks that would be "safe" against a normal player, but mango spotted those as openings.

if pp wants to win, he either has to grow more loosely reactive/intuitive like mango, or make his gameplan even more airtight. since it's a ditto, the latter is very hard to do.

i believe in pp too though.

the tournament showed that there is still a VERY CLEAR difference between the top level of smash (mango pp m2k hbox armada) and others. the likes of jman and kage got totally rocked.

 

[trahhSTEEZY]

how were the moves even safe to begin with if mango found openings?

Hey guys I'm a former brawl player and I'm quitting for good to play melee. I've been playing Marth for a while but I'm going to pick up Falco too. I didn't see a general discussion thread so I figured this was the closest thing to it and I thought I'd introduce myself. So another one that's found the light!

welcome! this is basically the falco cave. discuss anything/everything about falco one way or another. you'll find him to be a crazy fun character after learning some techskill. also good choice with melee, you'll find winning/doing well to be WORLDS more satisfying/rewarding, i promise that. It just may take a little longer than brawl.

 

[choknater]

how were the moves even safe to begin with if mango found openings?

that's not what i said. i meant that pp went for moves that would seem like they're safe. like i saw him jump off a platform and dair because obv the dair has good priority below falco, but the intent of the dair was clearly not to hit mango but to traverse the stage while doing an attack. he was punished for it

in the set, there are many examples of this. i'm gonna check out the set later to find more examples, i think i can learn a lot more about the ditto

 

[3mmanu3lrc]

Hey guys I'm a former brawl player and I'm quitting for good to play melee. I've been playing Marth for a while but I'm going to pick up Falco too. I didn't see a general discussion thread so I figured this was the closest thing to it and I thought I'd introduce myself. So another one that's found the light!

The light? Smash64 is the real light

JK aside, Marth is preatty good, a lot better than Falco, but try some Samus instead.

 

[trahhSTEEZY]

The light? Smash64 is the real light

JK aside, Marth is preatty good, a lot better than Falco, but try some Samus instead.

at this point i'd say falco > samus > marth ;D

 

[3mmanu3lrc]

at this point i'd say falco > samus > marth ;D

It's faster and could make a lot more damage, but that recovery, it just feels that it kills all his goods

 

[Beat!]

Marth and Falco are both extremely good. Goes without saying that one is a little better than the other, but none of them is "a lot" better than the other.

(I think Marth is a little better)

 

[trahhSTEEZY]

i think you're both crazy lol, falco is worlds better than marth IMO! hell marth isn't even S tier anymore according to our tier list and i'd highly agree. i find him to be the hardest character at A tier and up by far. a mixture of his level of difficulty, matched with falco being one of the easiest top tier(plus lasers in general) makes me heavily see it lean towards falco.

alllll IMO


also about falcos recovery, i feel he has so many options with it (including the cancelled side-b) that it balances out how far it goes.

 

[Beat!]

Well, needless to say I disagree with his placement in the current tier list >_>

And IMO no character is easy at top level so that's kind of irrelevant.

I think Marth beats Falco, and that his high/top tier matchups overall are slightly better.

 

[Devil Ray]

yo choknator, you post a **** ton

 

[trahhSTEEZY]

Well, needless to say I disagree with his placement in the current tier list >_>

And IMO no character is easy at top level so that's kind of irrelevant.

I think Marth beats Falco, and that his high/top tier matchups overall are slightly better.

just because none of them are easy doesn't mean that falco can't be easier to perform with in tournament than marth. which i think matters in a game like melee. I wouldn't say the same in a traditional fighter.

are you sure you realize how difficult marth is in tournament? do you know of any competent marths at very high level? outside of m2k.

there's a reason marths are INCREDIBLY rare at national tournament level.

 

[Beat!]

do you know of any competent marths at very high level? outside of m2k.

Taj, Ice, Hack, Niko, Dart... Mango... wouldn't be surprised if PP would tear **** up if he focused on Marth (not saying he should)

And I very well know how stressful Marth can be in tournament. I main him. >_>

 

[trahhSTEEZY]

I don't think it's fair to count Mango or PP,

as for the rest, I think Taj and Ice are very high level, but I don't think the others are of that caliber (no disrespect whatsoever)

besides that, you've basically listed the entire marth community, i mean i know there's a few more, but that compared to the amount of competent falcos is absurd. =/

 

[JPOBS]

i can't beleve people still think marth beats falco.

 

[bossa nova ♪]

i can't believe people are too daft to see that marth wins the falco match up.

 

[trahhSTEEZY]

what major pros (as in pros and cons, not professionals) do you see that favor marth in the matchup? im not disagreeing with you but i'd like to hear

 

[Warhawk]

I think the Marth-Falco Matchup is close enough to be considered about 50-50 but that Falco has the slight edge and its going more and more in favor of Falco as the metagame continues to change.

 

[trahhSTEEZY]

i don't know if we agree for the same reason, but i agree. alot of what helped marth in this matchup was falco players with unreliable DI. Now that players can DI appropriately alot of marths combos are hurt. obviously he still has combowork but yeah, not as ridiculously as before. oh heygrab grab grab utilt, utilt, utilt, uair, uair forward smash BYE

 

[Beat!]

- Powershielding is easy and often leads to other stuff
- If you touch Falco, he dies
- He's easy as balls to edgeguard
- All his moves can be outranged. There are a few plausible exceptions, but they all suffer from some sort of drawback (like being laggy or forcing him to commit to one option) that can be exploited
- Counter *****. A well placed Counter or two can often scare Falco into limiting his lasers/movement heavily, giving you more room to move around (I also think it's way underused vs LHDL-happy Falcos atm)


There's no need to go for 80%+ combos. Just get him off stage.

(Of course it's necessary at times, but too many times people throw him onto platforms when they could just throw him off stage by being a little smart)


I'm not saying Marth ***** Falco or anything. Falco has a lot of extremely good tools in this MU. I just think Marth wins it, possibly only by a slight margin, but still.




At the end of the day it doesn't really matter what the exact MU ratio is, though. Be the better player and you win. That's it.

 

[trahhSTEEZY]

- Powershielding is easy and often leads to other stuff

No one has proven this to be true. The closest I've seen to impressive was Zoso's marth and he was the only one, which mostly wasnt against high level players.

- If you touch Falco, he dies

I found this to be more true back in the day, but DI'ng marth stuff can prevent alot. Falco can also combo the living hell out of marth.

- He's easy as balls to edgeguard

i can agree with this if he's below the stage. But yeah, that's a given. Marth isn't the hardest to ledgeguard either. D-smash/shield ledeguard trick make things really hard for marth. Falco atleast has options with his recovery.

All his moves can be outranged. There are a few plausible exceptions, but they all suffer from some sort of drawback (like being laggy or forcing him to commit to one option) that can be exploited

This is why falco players just laser. You don't rely on out ranging him. You just rely on marth wasting his time thinking he's trying to out range you when really you're just waiting for marth's terrible aerial landing lag, to punish.

- Counter *****. A well placed Counter or two can often scare Falco into limiting his lasers/movement heavily, giving you more room to move around (I also think it's way underused vs LHDL-happy Falcos atm)

Eh, i find that move unreliable. at best you put falco in a semi bad position with no guaranteed damage(besides off stage stuff), at worst your completely open to any combo falco wants to start.

There's no need to go for 80%+ combos. Just get him off stage.

A good falco isn't gonna put himself into a situation where he's anywhere near the ledge, alot of times the marth needs the combo to make that happen.


this is probably crappy discussion that has been discussed 1242351235 times. so yea screw it =P

if only PP was here to tell me that falco sucks vs all top tier =(

 

[Beat!]

No one has proven this to be true. The closest I've seen to impressive was Zoso's marth and he was the only one, which mostly wasnt against high level players.

I'm not talking about consistently PSing every laser. That would be kind of a waste anyway. I'm talking about reading the opponent, PSing a laser, and capitalizing.

I found this to be more true back in the day, but DI'ng marth stuff can prevent alot. Falco can also combo the living hell out of marth.

That's why you put your effort into getting him off stage. Strictly speaking about combos, Falco is definitely on par with Marth.

i can agree with this if he's below the stage. But yeah, that's a given. Marth isn't the hardest to ledgeguard either. D-smash/shield ledeguard trick make things really hard for marth. Falco atleast has options with his recovery.

I think Marth's edgeguard vs Falco is better than vice versa by a decent amount, but it will be hard for me to be convincing about that, because it's not like I use any special tricks that others don't know about yet. I'm just extremely certain that the amount of times I've successfully gimped/edgeguarded Falco greatly outnumber the amount of times they've done the same to me (and that the same goes for any level of play).

This is why falco players just laser. You don't rely on out ranging him. You just rely on marth wasting his time thinking he's trying to out range you when really you're just waiting for marth's terrible aerial landing lag, to punish.

Lasers are not fool proof. One single PS can lead to stupid stuff, and one single poorly positioned laser can be punished just as much as a poorly executed aerial from Marth

Eh, i find that move unreliable. at best you put falco in a semi bad position with no guaranteed damage, at worst your completely open to any combo falco wants to start.

It's certainly unreliable if used too often and should therefore be used sparingly, but if you hit you're at neutral position AT WORST. Most of the time you're at least having a massive positioning advantage.

And countering LHDL means the bird is dead.

A good falco isn't gonna put himself into a situation where he's anywhere near the ledge, alot of times the marth needs the combo to make that happen.

I have yet to see a Falco that never goes to the ledge.

 

[wootayng]

good debate. yeah i was also who was wondering who wins on the tier list. imo marth has the best defense and seems to be a specialist in counter attacking. falco has the best offence (tied with fox) and pretty much just overworks the marth to death. if the marth know how to deal with falcos barrage of attacks and knows when to counter attack marth wins. in turn if the falco can successfully fluster the hell out of marth then he wins "THE PRESSUAAH!!". in the end it all depends on the players smarts

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

(and that the same goes for any level of play)

I think this is the biggest flaw of your argument. You fail to realize that as the players get better falco gains the upper hand by avoiding marth's negative situations. All the things you are mentioning are gimmicky and when the matchup is better understood the falco can not fall into them.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=upoJlt4wwfU

 

[Beat!]

M2K is nowhere near as good vs Falco as he is vs Fox, Falcon, Sheik and Peach.

(And yet the first set of those GFs starts off with M2K getting an early kill after sending PP off stage)




My turn now?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z_UgsIlHODs

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G_qs2fSOeG8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lc1GfN1rw1o

Let me guess what the responses will be:

Vid #1: He was sick

Vid #2: He could've won if he wanted to

and

Vid #3: OMG EUROPE IS TEH SUX

 

[Dark Hart]

M2K is nowhere near as good vs Falco as he is vs Fox, Falcon, Sheik and Peach.

(And yet the first set of those GFs starts off with M2K getting an early kill after sending PP off stage)




My turn now?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z_UgsIlHODs

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G_qs2fSOeG8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lc1GfN1rw1o

Let me guess what the responses will be:

Vid #1: He was sick

Vid #2: He could've won if he wanted to

and

Vid #3: OMG EUROPE IS TEH SUX

I agree with you when you say Marth wins (it's like 55/45 Marth imo)

but PP was sick

Mango could've won

and Ice playing against strong_bad doesn't mean anything

 

[bossa nova ♪]

you can't just look at matches by pros to judge match ups. it's not that simple. match ups are character vs character, obviously this game is played by players, but i was under the impression that in match ups, we're looking at the raw abilities of the characters against each other.

with players, you bring in the factor of mix-up ability, and i am arguing that what we've seen of high level marths vs falcos is reflective of player vs player (e.g., PP > any marth) not character vs character.



i can go into detail later.... but it's just absurd how easily marth can kill falco. and today's metagame is not at all reflective of the defensive tools needed to lessen the effectiveness of falco's offense. it's certainly within human potential to DI falco's **** better, it's just that no one does it yet. when he becomes even more dominant, maybe people will finally start the process of re-balancing their understandings of the character. especially when they, not just realize but, display how escapable a lot of his stuff is.

 

[trahhSTEEZY]

i clearly said "pros" as in pros and cons (as in the bonuses, or the flaws of the matchup..), not professionals..

 

[Beat!]

Lol yeah, you even clarified that XD