commonyoshi
Smash Hero
I never thought about melee that way before. Very insightful.
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PPMD's Falco Discussion Thread
- Thread starter Dr Peepee
- Start date
Divinokage
Smash Legend
It's right there in your face, you just need to release certain conditionings to see what's real. =)
JPOBS
Smash Hero
Damn, trolled so hard.
Van.
Smash Ace
wait
wait
wait
he wasn't serious was he?
wait
wait
he wasn't serious was he?
Oh yeah. That's the mango post, baby. He changed the thread title and everything.
I think I'll read it a few more times. It's complex stuff, and the terminology bogs me down at certain points, but PP does a great job of making it as clear as possible. I thought the part about the green bit was particularly good.
Really, I don't even see the need for a part 2. He covered everything there was to cover.
I think I'll read it a few more times. It's complex stuff, and the terminology bogs me down at certain points, but PP does a great job of making it as clear as possible. I thought the part about the green bit was particularly good.
Really, I don't even see the need for a part 2. He covered everything there was to cover.
Da Shuffla
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Aug 29, 2008
- Messages
- 1,810
I'm not even mad; that's amazing.
Mango
Distinguishing a player's playstyle and personality is important in terms of evaluating who they are as a smasher, but I also feel they're pretty related. While that is a separate discussion for another day, I feel that the concept applies perfectly here when one looks at Mango. You cannot just say Mango is such and such in person therefore this is who he is as a smasher, yet you cannot determine who he is by just watching him lol on most people with Falcon or triple taunt Hungrybox mid match. No, the two must be considered together in order to have a real understanding of the person that has become the central focus of the Melee community for quite some time, Mango.
No one denies that Mango had the talent to become one of(if not) the greatest smashers ever, but talent alone does not always make the top dog. Work ethic is how one cultivates their talent or other innate ability and allows them to succeed. So, what drove Mango to push the limits of Melee? Well, the answer is not a short and simple one but rather a combination of experience and other factors such as inheritance which I haven't had the chance to find out yet lol. I can speak on previous life experience though because Mango has informed me of how, when he was younger, he would always win any game or challenge set before him. He recognized his natural talent for things early on and pushed it because he enjoyed the feeling of winning and all of the praise or respect and all that which comes along with it.
*A funny side note here is that when Mango told me about this he also said he would win "whenever (he) felt like trying"*
So, it is only natural that he would try to be the best in smash should be care enough about being the best in it, which he obviously did. Now, why did it work out for him and not others who have a similar background? Maybe Mango got lucky he lived in California or maybe he was just a success story like KDJ or something that decided to keep playing and take things even farther because he got a natural enjoyment from playing the game. Possibilities abound here, but there is no denying the obvious talent+hard work=results formula that Mango exemplifies.
Okay, so we know that Mango is driven, but is that all there is to him? I think anyone that has ever said the word "****" related to smash would probably say no. While there are many facets to Mango's personality I'd love to talk about, I will focus on one more for the purpose of this post: The crowd pleaser.
Deep down, Mango is a nice(ish) guy. It's only natural he'd want to give back to the people who supported him and donated him money LOL. But that isn't why he still plays Melee. He plays because of the hype and adrenaline rush that comes when he does something cool and never before seen that gets hundreds of people to flip out. You can read it in that blog post he made, where he clearly says he picked Fox over Falcon vs Armada because it would be way more exciting for him to play Fox. I've talked to Mango about his gameplay before, and he believes that defense is actually better than offense in Melee(or at least easier). He would rather just rush the opponent due to his personal convictions and because it seems to still be getting him by. Basically this adds up to Mango now playing in a way that he believes is WORSE FOR HIS COMPETITIVE SUCCESS in favor of being supported and keeping Melee enjoyable to play and watch at a very high level(there are many conclusions one can draw from this).
Why would Mango make such a decision though? Well, whether through his successes or his experience with older players that enjoyed hyping themselves up, Mango believes he is that much better than even the next closest player to him in skill. He has waited quite a while for others to catch up to his level of play no matter how one looks at the record following Mango's performance compared to others after Genesis 1. Can he afford to do that now? Of course not and he's admitted that the current contenders for 1st are very skilled.
Eh killing this section because I've lost interest in finishing it.
So, how does this personality type play into Mango's gameplay? How does Mango play viewed separately from personality? Well to answer the first question rather quickly Mango has already been noted as saying he is playing aggressively because he wants to please the crowd. We could also say that, because of his charisma, that he would want to make things happen in a match as opposed to letting things play out(DD camping or shooting a few lasers with Fox to momentarily throw the opponent off from Mango's traditional game...however far you wish to extend the idea).
The second question will be of greater focus for this section of my post. Until very recently, it was clear to see the large influence of Mango's Jigglypuff in his playstyle. Picking an example at random(aka searching "mango vs" on youtube and selecting the first result which happens to be him vs Jman from Pound 4), I can note several Puff-like maneuvers that seem more typical for a Jigglypuff player.
An example is at 0:11 when Mango does a Nair OOS on Jman's shield. Puff does those types of Nairs to poke at the opponent but to re-establish momentum and space on her own terms. Mango messed the L-cancel and FF timing up on the one executed which is even more interesting because Puff's SH Nair autocancels.
Let's make this more convincing though. At 0:16 Mango decides to FH Dair far above Jman's head. I've never seen a Falco opt for being high above Fox in my life before, but Mango makes it work for him because he knows Jman will follow. Or is it because Puff players must work in varying heights to be truly effective, as staying low to the ground constantly is a surefire way to be easily read and destroyed?
Doing aerials quickly while rising off the ground is a staple Puff tactic, and it's not too surprising to me to see that Mango started to early retreating aerial on shield as well as autocancel Bair for pressure or something to threaten the opponent with as some of his very first innovations with Falco.
So, why do I care so much about Puff experience affecting Mango's play? I believe that it allows Mango to take any character thought to be played a certain way and put a unique Puff player spin on it. Puff, in my opinion, requires a unique skillset(including, as is the case for any floaty, the capacity to read a ton so that one can use their slower characters to maneuver in time with the faster ones). The fact that Mango allows many of his characters a moments pause before acting(especially earlier in his matches, go look for it) or abuses vertical positioning games that most people aren't aware of in his play is something that I feel should really be studied and respected while observing his play. It can also be said that, since he's used to playing such a slow character, that Mango(or any floaty-centered player really) can really manipulate and think through the speed characters like Fox have and control them in a more wholesome way(given time and practice).
I have read some remarks about Mango's gameplay, referring to it as having "no patterns" and the like. I have absolutely no difficulty in saying that Mango is 100% human and has patterns and bad habits to abuse. Any thought otherwise is ridiculous. HOWEVER, Mango's patterns are quite sophisticated and are packed to the brim with those "tweaks" that Mango spoke of in his interview on Stabbedbyahippie's youtube channel. What do I mean? Well let's take a look at yet another match, but I'm actually going to pick one out this time lol.
Mango vs Armada Grand Finals of Genesis 2 looks good( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CQ9c-2lAld4 ). Mango liked talking about shield pressure so let's check that out here.
We see within the first 20 seconds or so Armada has Nair'd OOS to stuff Mango's shield pressure 2-3 times or at least gotten out of it relatively easily. Mango then attempts to shield after a Dair on Armada's shield to play on Armada's sight reactions when moving OOS vs Fox pressure(around 0:23) and then chases Armada to see if he can catch Armada offguard with his more passive aggressive pressure. He opts for more shield pressure but Armada Nairs OOS once again. Mango decides for a while afterward that shield pressure was gaining him nothing so you can watch him grab over and over lol. It's pretty funny, but it's also about tweaking until you find a weak spot and push it until the opponent changes it or you win in those scenarios. Once a vs shield game is established Mango then can move on to beating the neutral position game more and all that fun stuff. At any rate this is just a small portion of Mango's shield game prowess/understanding and it certainly can be more respectable on a creative tweaking or whatever level if we observed him vs a spacie, but there wasn't any of that as hyped lately and new stuff is cool.
I could write a little about Mango's recovery game but after some of the stuff he did vs Armada nah LOL.
I'm not sure what else to write about so maybe I can write a little more about whatever people want to ask me about, but I think this is most of what I wanted to point out.
Finally, this is not really a meatriding Mango post. I respect the heck out of the guy, but there's a difference between me saying all of this stuff he's doing is amazing and just acknowledging his unique assets and strengths as a player. I expect it to look like a Mango meatride post simply because I took a while to write about him LOL but that's whatever to me. I had fun doing this. =p
@ all of the stuff I just wrote:
Distinguishing a player's playstyle and personality is important in terms of evaluating who they are as a smasher, but I also feel they're pretty related. While that is a separate discussion for another day, I feel that the concept applies perfectly here when one looks at Mango. You cannot just say Mango is such and such in person therefore this is who he is as a smasher, yet you cannot determine who he is by just watching him lol on most people with Falcon or triple taunt Hungrybox mid match. No, the two must be considered together in order to have a real understanding of the person that has become the central focus of the Melee community for quite some time, Mango.
No one denies that Mango had the talent to become one of(if not) the greatest smashers ever, but talent alone does not always make the top dog. Work ethic is how one cultivates their talent or other innate ability and allows them to succeed. So, what drove Mango to push the limits of Melee? Well, the answer is not a short and simple one but rather a combination of experience and other factors such as inheritance which I haven't had the chance to find out yet lol. I can speak on previous life experience though because Mango has informed me of how, when he was younger, he would always win any game or challenge set before him. He recognized his natural talent for things early on and pushed it because he enjoyed the feeling of winning and all of the praise or respect and all that which comes along with it.
*A funny side note here is that when Mango told me about this he also said he would win "whenever (he) felt like trying"*
So, it is only natural that he would try to be the best in smash should be care enough about being the best in it, which he obviously did. Now, why did it work out for him and not others who have a similar background? Maybe Mango got lucky he lived in California or maybe he was just a success story like KDJ or something that decided to keep playing and take things even farther because he got a natural enjoyment from playing the game. Possibilities abound here, but there is no denying the obvious talent+hard work=results formula that Mango exemplifies.
Okay, so we know that Mango is driven, but is that all there is to him? I think anyone that has ever said the word "****" related to smash would probably say no. While there are many facets to Mango's personality I'd love to talk about, I will focus on one more for the purpose of this post: The crowd pleaser.
Deep down, Mango is a nice(ish) guy. It's only natural he'd want to give back to the people who supported him and donated him money LOL. But that isn't why he still plays Melee. He plays because of the hype and adrenaline rush that comes when he does something cool and never before seen that gets hundreds of people to flip out. You can read it in that blog post he made, where he clearly says he picked Fox over Falcon vs Armada because it would be way more exciting for him to play Fox. I've talked to Mango about his gameplay before, and he believes that defense is actually better than offense in Melee(or at least easier). He would rather just rush the opponent due to his personal convictions and because it seems to still be getting him by. Basically this adds up to Mango now playing in a way that he believes is WORSE FOR HIS COMPETITIVE SUCCESS in favor of being supported and keeping Melee enjoyable to play and watch at a very high level(there are many conclusions one can draw from this).
Why would Mango make such a decision though? Well, whether through his successes or his experience with older players that enjoyed hyping themselves up, Mango believes he is that much better than even the next closest player to him in skill. He has waited quite a while for others to catch up to his level of play no matter how one looks at the record following Mango's performance compared to others after Genesis 1. Can he afford to do that now? Of course not and he's admitted that the current contenders for 1st are very skilled.
Eh killing this section because I've lost interest in finishing it.
So, how does this personality type play into Mango's gameplay? How does Mango play viewed separately from personality? Well to answer the first question rather quickly Mango has already been noted as saying he is playing aggressively because he wants to please the crowd. We could also say that, because of his charisma, that he would want to make things happen in a match as opposed to letting things play out(DD camping or shooting a few lasers with Fox to momentarily throw the opponent off from Mango's traditional game...however far you wish to extend the idea).
The second question will be of greater focus for this section of my post. Until very recently, it was clear to see the large influence of Mango's Jigglypuff in his playstyle. Picking an example at random(aka searching "mango vs" on youtube and selecting the first result which happens to be him vs Jman from Pound 4), I can note several Puff-like maneuvers that seem more typical for a Jigglypuff player.
An example is at 0:11 when Mango does a Nair OOS on Jman's shield. Puff does those types of Nairs to poke at the opponent but to re-establish momentum and space on her own terms. Mango messed the L-cancel and FF timing up on the one executed which is even more interesting because Puff's SH Nair autocancels.
Let's make this more convincing though. At 0:16 Mango decides to FH Dair far above Jman's head. I've never seen a Falco opt for being high above Fox in my life before, but Mango makes it work for him because he knows Jman will follow. Or is it because Puff players must work in varying heights to be truly effective, as staying low to the ground constantly is a surefire way to be easily read and destroyed?
Doing aerials quickly while rising off the ground is a staple Puff tactic, and it's not too surprising to me to see that Mango started to early retreating aerial on shield as well as autocancel Bair for pressure or something to threaten the opponent with as some of his very first innovations with Falco.
So, why do I care so much about Puff experience affecting Mango's play? I believe that it allows Mango to take any character thought to be played a certain way and put a unique Puff player spin on it. Puff, in my opinion, requires a unique skillset(including, as is the case for any floaty, the capacity to read a ton so that one can use their slower characters to maneuver in time with the faster ones). The fact that Mango allows many of his characters a moments pause before acting(especially earlier in his matches, go look for it) or abuses vertical positioning games that most people aren't aware of in his play is something that I feel should really be studied and respected while observing his play. It can also be said that, since he's used to playing such a slow character, that Mango(or any floaty-centered player really) can really manipulate and think through the speed characters like Fox have and control them in a more wholesome way(given time and practice).
I have read some remarks about Mango's gameplay, referring to it as having "no patterns" and the like. I have absolutely no difficulty in saying that Mango is 100% human and has patterns and bad habits to abuse. Any thought otherwise is ridiculous. HOWEVER, Mango's patterns are quite sophisticated and are packed to the brim with those "tweaks" that Mango spoke of in his interview on Stabbedbyahippie's youtube channel. What do I mean? Well let's take a look at yet another match, but I'm actually going to pick one out this time lol.
Mango vs Armada Grand Finals of Genesis 2 looks good( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CQ9c-2lAld4 ). Mango liked talking about shield pressure so let's check that out here.
We see within the first 20 seconds or so Armada has Nair'd OOS to stuff Mango's shield pressure 2-3 times or at least gotten out of it relatively easily. Mango then attempts to shield after a Dair on Armada's shield to play on Armada's sight reactions when moving OOS vs Fox pressure(around 0:23) and then chases Armada to see if he can catch Armada offguard with his more passive aggressive pressure. He opts for more shield pressure but Armada Nairs OOS once again. Mango decides for a while afterward that shield pressure was gaining him nothing so you can watch him grab over and over lol. It's pretty funny, but it's also about tweaking until you find a weak spot and push it until the opponent changes it or you win in those scenarios. Once a vs shield game is established Mango then can move on to beating the neutral position game more and all that fun stuff. At any rate this is just a small portion of Mango's shield game prowess/understanding and it certainly can be more respectable on a creative tweaking or whatever level if we observed him vs a spacie, but there wasn't any of that as hyped lately and new stuff is cool.
I could write a little about Mango's recovery game but after some of the stuff he did vs Armada nah LOL.
I'm not sure what else to write about so maybe I can write a little more about whatever people want to ask me about, but I think this is most of what I wanted to point out.
Finally, this is not really a meatriding Mango post. I respect the heck out of the guy, but there's a difference between me saying all of this stuff he's doing is amazing and just acknowledging his unique assets and strengths as a player. I expect it to look like a Mango meatride post simply because I took a while to write about him LOL but that's whatever to me. I had fun doing this. =p
@ all of the stuff I just wrote:
Moooose
Smash Champion
first post after real mango post?
that was a good read.
that was a good read.
JPOBS
Smash Hero
Prepare for system overload!!
*reads*
*reads*
Wake
Smash Master
You should do a post about Armada, M2K, Hbox, and yourself too!
G
genkaku
Guest
I'd suspected as much concerning how his puff plays into his other chars. You've hinted at it repeatedly, as well. Actually, you've been hardcore hinting at all of that stuff for a while, lol. It's easier to see it with the examples you pulled and the reference to vertical spacing, though.
haha, random question. Is your puff any good, PP?
haha, random question. Is your puff any good, PP?
Van.
Smash Ace
Great read.
Lived up to the hype
Lived up to the hype
I don't know as much about them aside from myself lol, and that post would be me not being able to decide wtf I am/do lol. I suppose if people wanted me to I could write about them eventually but it's not like I won't be including traits of all of them in my other large posts(which is something I'll try to do now that I think of it since it sounds like an interesting project).
Edit @Genkaku: Ummmm not really lol because Twitch wouldn't let me play more of her when I wanted to learn her because he got mad when he lost to her, but I'm gonna try to learn more of her soon. Playing Mahone over the weekend when he stayed at my house gave me lots of nifty Puff ideas which I put to use in the few friendlies I played with her soooo maybe I can change that. =) I think she is certainly within my grasp to learn, but that wasn't your question, sooo no I suppose it's not. =p
straight8
Banned via Warnings
so worth the wait
id like to know what you feel like when playing against him personally. i just want to know how he responds to what you do, and how he plays against your (fairly) safe style of play.
not safe style so much as careful..
id like to know what you feel like when playing against him personally. i just want to know how he responds to what you do, and how he plays against your (fairly) safe style of play.
not safe style so much as careful..
D
Deleted member
Guest
LOLLLLLL I asked you to post a picture of it but jesus christ that one is huge. hilarious.
Wake
Smash Master
Time to interview them PP! haha
I like being able to see what top players think about each other because all players like me get to see are the awesome sets they always have with each other (which is cool, but it's also cool to see what they think about each others' styles and stuff)
I like being able to see what top players think about each other because all players like me get to see are the awesome sets they always have with each other (which is cool, but it's also cool to see what they think about each others' styles and stuff)
The first time I played Mango for a very long period of time(me him and MacD but mostly me and him before WGF in January) I described the sensation as "taking a needle of sorts and finding many many many different ways to probe into my brain" I could actually feel him trying it in my head it was funny haha. I can't say past that time because johns but I get soooo into playing him that I lose myself and Melee feels way more in depth and exciting and a back and forth than anything else I will play vs anyone else. Also I feel way more proud of my hard thought-for hits/kills then too haha.
Goodness if I responded to every little intricacy about it I'd have another super lengthy post on my hands XD
Lmao good idea man the response was amazing HAHAHAHA
Well every top player thinks they are the best lol, or hopefully they think they can win vs anyone(which is more my case).Time to interview them PP! haha
I like being able to see what top players think about each other because all players like me get to see are the awesome sets they always have with each other (which is cool, but it's also cool to see what they think about each others' styles and stuff)
Haha I've talked to all of the top players 1 on 1 at least a little bit except Armada really, but to interview them? Ehhhh that'd be kinda weird but you never know what will work out haha. It's certainly an interesting idea down the road.
Mew2King
King of the Mews
" I've talked to Mango about his gameplay before, and he believe that aggression is better than defense in Melee(harder at the least). Basically this adds up to Mango now playing in a way that he believes is WORSE FOR HIS COMPETITIVE SUCCESS in favor of being supported and keeping Melee enjoyable to play and watch at a very high level(there are many conclusions one can draw from this). "
you contradicted yourself. You said he believes aggression is better, and he plays aggressively. Then you say it's worse for his competitive success
you contradicted yourself. You said he believes aggression is better, and he plays aggressively. Then you say it's worse for his competitive success
Bl@ckChris
Smash Hero
i was also curious about that too. i guess you mean that he's making it harder on himself, even though he thinks it's better.
tarheeljks
Smash Lord
in that context better seems to have a meaning beyond "better for winning"
- Joined
- Feb 27, 2008
- Messages
- 26,560
m2k with that proofreading. frame perfect
Elyssa Xey Hexen
Broken!
- Joined
- Aug 6, 2008
- Messages
- 19,345
The best I got out of that post was, I have finally seen what Mango looks like in person, and you need to switch up your style to adapt to the task set before you.
straight8
Banned via Warnings
do it please
Haha whew I dunno about that man that's some hardcore stuff I'd have to write there. I'll see how some of my other things I write first go then I'll see how I'm feeling about that topic later. It would be a cool exercise so I'm definitely not writing it off haha.
D
Deleted member
Guest
please don't do it. people will jerk to whatever you say like this mango post, which frankly sounded like a meat ride despite your tidbit at the end.
if you post **** on all the other top players you'll have so much saliva on your balls that you'll need a dehumidifier to sleep at night.
if you post **** on all the other top players you'll have so much saliva on your balls that you'll need a dehumidifier to sleep at night.
LOL now Umbreon/Intuition I just said I'm considering it. We'll see where it goes and if I decide to do it I won't post in advance about it this time(like I would if I did for other top players but with less wait hopefully lol but even that probably won't be for some time).
Elyssa Xey Hexen
Broken!
- Joined
- Aug 6, 2008
- Messages
- 19,345
Dr. Pepper meat rides Mango. Then people meat ride Dr. Pepper. Sounds like a viscous chain that shouldn't happen.
straight8
Banned via Warnings
umbreon youre dumb
i just love competition and admire competitors, cause i aspire to learn form them and beat them
its not meatriding, i dont think many people do that much meatriding anymore. we just respect people who are good
i just love competition and admire competitors, cause i aspire to learn form them and beat them
its not meatriding, i dont think many people do that much meatriding anymore. we just respect people who are good
Wake
Smash Master
I agree with this for the most part, except I think there's still Hbox hate, and I think it's really hard to argue that he's not good, regardless of how much someone may hate Puff.
JPOBS
Smash Hero
stfu umbreon
onionchowder
Smash Journeyman
I find it amazing that some players (AKA good players AKA Dr. PP) can just watch a match and dissect a player's gameplay like that. I watch the same video and all I see is cool combos and tech skill.
It's been widely acknowledged that Mango loves playing for the crowd and for the rush rather than for the win, and this may negatively affect his gameplay. At the same time, everyone says Mango doesn't play as well when the crowd isn't into it to hype him up. PP, do you think Mango plays better when he's got the crowd hyping him up or without it?
It's been widely acknowledged that Mango loves playing for the crowd and for the rush rather than for the win, and this may negatively affect his gameplay. At the same time, everyone says Mango doesn't play as well when the crowd isn't into it to hype him up. PP, do you think Mango plays better when he's got the crowd hyping him up or without it?
Well in terms of Mango's ability to win the crowd is huge. Because he tends to have it behind him lately he can use it to unnerve his opponents and win that way. Does he play better with them? Ehh he can be more confident(I've seen Mango lose confidence/falter in his play before) with the crowd, and having that momentum is a huge plus as a spacie. In the case of Genesis 2 it seemed to make him play below his potential so I'd say no.
Without dragging this out any farther, prior to Genesis 2 I think he'd play his same game anyway so I'd say yes. Right now I'm not sure if Mango benefits more or not. I think he's going to choose to play the same way he has starting at Genesis 2(and will hopefully learn from his mistakes at Genesis 2 in some form), so he might as well have the crowd behind him to help him play better. Should he attempt to play a little safer(his main strategy that was still very entertaining in my opinion) then I'd say the crowd wouldn't totally matter one way or the other but to be safe I'd say no crowd. That question is annoying to answer for me if you haven't noticed because I really want to mention how tough it is for his competition to hear all of the Mango fans yelling haha and I think that changes the game to a degree.
Aldwyn McCloud
Smash Ace
I didn't notice this until now and yes, my hands are pretty animated too xd
proof: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HF9iKQaLOiM
Divinokage
Smash Legend
So that means 2 years ago when people were rooting for me instead of Mango, it decreased his power level allowing me to win? =P
TheZhuKeeper
Smash Champion
This.
Over and over again.
Melee doesn't really quite feel the same when playing anyone else. I feel this towards his Falco more than any of his other characters (or any other Falco really). Improving against Mango is one of the most fulfilling experiences I've gotten out of Melee, that and those bursts of figuring out m2k (kinda) LOL.
JPOBS
Smash Hero
Win the crowd, win your freedom.
ARE YOU NOT ENtERTAINED!?
choknater
Smash Obsessed
He... is... ENTATEINA!