PPMD's Falco Discussion Thread

[ShroudedOne]

All I'll say is that Peepee is really confident too, and doesn't come off as arrogant. I'm all for confidence, that's fine. Thinking you're infallible is something else.

 

[Chroma]

i can't fairly say that mango is the full blame, clearly he isn't, but you know when the best player out there is bagging on someone (all the time..) it's gonna catch on and people will find it easier to agree, seeing as it's not that exciting to watch puff already, for most atleast.



yeah i wasn't reffering to putting pressure on hbox's style of play, just the hate. mango says that about everyone? like who else? i hardly ever see him bag on one single player out there, with the exception of hbox ALL THE TIME lol. He does deny hbox as a top player, and thinks he's "gimmicked" his way to top level.

no idea how you could get a better impression on mango than ken..

i still love mango like cray cray!

He definitely delivers most of the hate to Hbox, but on youtube he's occasionally bagged on M2k, Axe, Amsah, Armada, PP once, Scorpadorp (as Mango). I mean, it's obviously silly and joking around in those cases. There definitely is a different level of animosity for Hbox, but it seems different then everyone who just follows that and says "Puff is always dumb to watch because she just rests and bairs a lot".

As as for the Ken thing, just the occasional story. For example, how he bans Taj/AZ from Cali locals because he lost to them, or OC3 as a whole. what was the story there? Obviously I don't know the guy/anything at all, but that's where the impression comes from.

 

[Pi]

i just think it's silly for a large portion of our community to disrespect a person like hbox, who has hosted a very successful local tournament series here in fl, with close to 30 tournaments under his belt
step up to the plate and put together CEO after word came in that the tournament that was spose to happen could no longer occur
and then host another CEO after that
house OoS, and locals, for any and all tournaments that called for it
and all around being a nice pleasant guy to be around

and idolize, respect the hell out of, and worship a guy like mango who's only real benefit to the community has been to be good at melee.

 

[choknater]

hahah. i don't think it's right to project our own ideals of what a best player should be onto mango. maybe it's just weird for some people that the best player in the USA happens to have some mentalities that this "play to win" generation doesn't agree with. mango ENJOYS playing to be COOL. and bashes on anything else that isn't COOL.

well, melee happens to be a game that benefits coolness... but also... maybe that's why it has survived for so long.

shoutouts to poongko. drink that red bull and RUSH DOWN.

no one's disrespecting hbox except for scrubs who want a good show. good people KNOW he is good. people just bash on his playstyle because it looks lame.

when discussing the community, don't think about the game as just a game. words like "cool" "whack" "lame" "awesome" "hate" "respect" and other ideas like that... they definitely exist in the community. everyone just has different opinions.

 

[SSBMLahti]

Mango blog almost made me cry, reminds me of Ip Man.

I hope Mango and Pp go to ROM4/Apex and have LEGIT matches.

 

[Chroma]

hahah. i don't think it's right to project our own ideals of what a best player should be onto mango. maybe it's just weird for some people that the best player in the USA happens to have some mentalities that this "play to win" generation doesn't agree with. mango ENJOYS playing to be COOL. and bashes on anything else that isn't COOL.

well, melee happens to be a game that benefits coolness... but also... maybe that's why it has survived for so long.

shoutouts to poongko. drink that red bull and RUSH DOWN.

I thought the way he put the crowd's effect in his blog was fascinating. When the crowd wants him to do something cool, he just goes crazy and flashy. When he's on the EC, he takes Chu Dat to Brinstar and picks Puff. If more people cheered for Hbox randomly, would he try to be King? Is this why Falcons feed off of crowds?

 

[choknater]

yeah. i think that's pretty amazing. he'll purposely go for high risk high reward stuff because he knows the crowd wants it.

and to be honest, that's what made the genesis tournaments so fun. mango's coolness vs everyone else trying to beat him. just so happened that mango messed up trying to be cool and armada is too good.

who is the real winner here?

i'm sure most would say armada

but deep down

we all know we love mango's G O D L I K E spacies.

 

[ShroudedOne]

@choknater: Yeah, people are simply people, no matter how good they are at the game. Mango can't (and shouldn't have to be) everything we want him to be. And hbox doesn't really seem to care so much about what people think that he would change his character anyways, so for people (like me) to co-opt his "pain" isn't really fair, I admit. People should be entitled to their own opinions, too. I'd just like a more open view, I guess.

@TRLahti: Lol. What, Ylink/Jiggs isn't legit enough for you. Heh. But I agree. It's about time those two had an actually set.

 

[choknater]

i loved the hbox vs armada set for 2 reasons

1. young link is my favorite character in the game, pretty much my current main. (you guys will get to see vids from the upcoming tournament on sunday )

2. i am the guy who sat pretty close to hbox, and advised him to pick yoshi story at the end of the set so that armada couldn't run away as effectively.

 

[trahhSTEEZY]

i think that mango post will have some influence on armada trying peach vs puff again (personally if i had finally won at genesis, apex wouldn't be as impacting and i would rather focus on learning the matchup with my main, rather than picking YL again to win)

mango should just do it

 

[Chroma]

I feel like Mango actually did better this time overall vs Armada... Armada just demolished that fox every time he touched it. Armada definitely deserved to win that one. Their playstyles are so different I'm not sure if you can call one necessarily better than the other at this point, and those games were really tight.

I liked the set, but I also like watching puff dittoes, marth/sheik, and occasionally hugs when he's not being overly full of himself. I can see why phil and hmw were upset watching it - it just didn't seem like hbox had practiced the matchup/thought of anything new/adapted to the ubercamping. I have no idea whether that's the case, but for example I had no idea why he cped kongo jungle.

It could also be that armada's young link is just too good. It was frustrating to some people that hbox couldn't seem to find a way through the bombs and nairs, and it generated animosity for everything related to the set.

 

[choknater]

no, hbox definitely made a clear adjustment since pound, but it didn't work. it was an idea where he simply tried to run away from the problem by camping back. this failed the first match because he simply gave in sometimes to the urge of trying to hit young link while he was holding a bomb.

the true way to beat young link for any character is to get close to him and use your shield. his grab pretty bad, and his shield pressure is decent but not powerful enough to shield poke or punish grab whiffs really hard or anything like that. the problem with jigglypuff is... her options out of shield are not very good vs young link either. so it's a very bad matchup.

there are 2 situations puff wants to be in
1. close to young link while he's not holding a bomb
2. young link close to the ledge and forced to jump

both of these can be achieved by inching towards young link while keeping a shield up to block bombs. even if the thrown bombs bounce off the shield, at least you're getting closer to him while not taking bomb damage. it's hard to do with puff. 65-35 matchup imo.

 

[Bones0]

I think Mango definitely blows his "hate" for Hbox out of proportion sometimes just to appease his fanboys who love to see him do crazy ****. It's really becoming a sort of celebrity issue. You always see celebrities go sort of wacko with antics because they feel like they need to act a certain way, and that's all I really see whenever Mango starts saying ridiculous ****. Even if his criticisms of other players' play styles are how he really feels, he talks about them in a way that makes it seem like he's trying to live up to someone's expectations. The more he acts like a douche, the more people love the drama. The more people love the drama he causes, the more he acts like a douche. It's just a perpetual cycle of Mango being a crowd pleaser (both in and out of the game), and the crowd supporting his actions (both in and out of the game). He even touches on that in the blog where he talks about how he literally cannot resist playing flashy because of the crowd.

 

[choknater]

that's pretty spot-on.

 

[Divinokage]

He kinda bashes Armada, and says that he is also making the game gay. Granted, those are more like side comments, and are nowhere near the extent that he talks about Hbox, but he does seem to give Armada credit, while giving Hbox none.



There is a difference (as I'm sure you know) between confidence and arrogance. "I can beat them," is confidence. "I'll never lose," or "My play style is the best," is arrogance. Granted, those examples are general, and perhaps I am misinterpreting his confidence for arrogance. But if that's the case, he must know the future or something, cause he's hella confident...

Exactly.. You have to think you are the best and there's nothing that can stand in your way. You CAN'T lose... it's not an option. All your opponents don't deserve your respect because you WILL stomp on them. Anything you do you have to roll over everyone in your way, that's how it is. Any other way of thinking is simply not strong enough. A true champion already KNOWS what he needs to do to win, in the beginning he refines himself until he is strong enough.. and then when he is.. then he's the best, it's final.

 

[Chroma]

I'm still amazed when I can kill people below 150% with young link (besides with the magic of nairguarding and surprise firespikes). That young link has reasonable kill setups at such comparatively low percentages on puff is inspiring for pre-pubescent heroes of time everywhere.

 

[genkaku]

I think that mango is just extremely competitive and that all of his "antics" come out of this desire for really good melee to take part in. Kage knows what's up.

Hbox is playing an awwwful lot of sheik since G2. I wouldn't be surprised if he started entering tournaments as sheik. Apparently he thinks it's refreshing and that he hasn't had as much fun with melee in a while.

Also, ShroudedOne vs. mango. The entire content of my savings account on mango.

 

[choknater]

haha well, maining a single character for a long time can be very tiring and stressful. picking a new one that you don't really use much can help a player look at the game from an entirely new perspective.

as for me, i wanna be like the axe of young link haha.

 

[ShroudedOne]

Exactly.. You have to think you are the best and there's nothing that can stand in your way. You CAN'T lose... it's not an option. All your opponents don't deserve your respect because you WILL stomp on them. Anything you do you have to roll over everyone in your way, that's how it is. Any other way of thinking is simply not strong enough. A true champion already KNOWS what he needs to do to win, in the beginning he refines himself until he is strong enough.. and then when he is.. then he's the best, it's final.

Strangely (or not), I agree with this. I suppose it's just my interpretation of it, then. But he could be a little...more civil about it.

I think that mango is just extremely competitive and that all of his "antics" come out of this desire for really good melee to take part in. Kage knows what's up.

Hbox is playing an awwwful lot of sheik since G2. I wouldn't be surprised if he started entering tournaments as sheik. Apparently he thinks it's refreshing and that he hasn't had as much fun with melee in a while.

Also, ShroudedOne vs. mango. The entire content of my savings account on mango.

That is absolutely not fair. Not once did I say I would or could beat Mango. (Even though I would )

 

[Bones0]

no, hbox definitely made a clear adjustment since pound, but it didn't work. it was an idea where he simply tried to run away from the problem by camping back. this failed the first match because he simply gave in sometimes to the urge of trying to hit young link while he was holding a bomb.

the true way to beat young link for any character is to get close to him and use your shield. his grab pretty bad, and his shield pressure is decent but not powerful enough to shield poke or punish grab whiffs really hard or anything like that. the problem with jigglypuff is... her options out of shield are not very good vs young link either. so it's a very bad matchup.

there are 2 situations puff wants to be in
1. close to young link while he's not holding a bomb
2. young link close to the ledge and forced to jump

both of these can be achieved by inching towards young link while keeping a shield up to block bombs. even if the thrown bombs bounce off the shield, at least you're getting closer to him while not taking bomb damage. it's hard to do with puff. 65-35 matchup imo.

I think everyone noticed the general difference in how he was playing, but I think what he was getting at is that he didn't practice the matchup thoroughly. He just kinda decided he would play it differently and banked on that being enough. Armada straight up learned YL JUST for that matchup, so for Hbox to not prepare thoroughly for the rematch seems really stupid. I was just wondering why he didn't at least "force" Armada to go Peach game 1 by calling for a double blind. Obviously he didn't have a secondary to use, but Armada and everyone else didn't know that. If he called for a double blind, Armada wouldn't have risked using YL in case Hbox really did have a Sheik or w/e. Then, even after the first game, it would have felt a lot more risky for Armada to go YL on Hbox's counterpicks because he could have just been waiting to pull out his secondary for later.

 

[choknater]

hahah. kage your posts are funny.

however the "he's the best. it's final." part is wrong. it's never final, really. life goes on, and you either stay the best or you don't.

actually, many very competitive successful people move on in life to teach others to do the same. through coaching, books, motivational speaking, teaching their kids, something haha.

 

[Divinokage]

Well for example, the reason I'm not the best is because I have too much of a hard head to stick to my own character and not try give myself the best chances I can to win with other characters. Little things like that, make a HUGE difference.

@Chok.. it's not about life, it's about your attitude of life.

 

[choknater]

bones0: haha well yeah. hbox did prepare a LITTLE bit by playing G$'s ylink earlier in the day. maybe some thought about it between the tournaments. but yeah, it just shows armada's will to win by having hours-long training sessions as young link vs hack's jigglypuff.

kage: that's exactly what i'm talking about though lol. you said "it's final" whereas i simply said being the best is never final.

 

[Divinokage]

Oohh ok, but there's still never nothing you can do. =P You can always refine yourself and that means you can be the best again. =P

Edit: But for that to happen then you have to do it right from the beginning.

 

[genkaku]

haha, armada didn't learn YL for the puff MU, he learned it specifically to time out Hbox. There's a huge difference, haha.
So much drama!

 

[Chroma]

That makes the "That ain't G$'s falco/marth" trashtalk even more hilarious.
I thought it was because kage worries too much about stuff like that. He should just waveland into taunts for shield pressure/edgeguards/tech chases/grabs/dinner. Occasionally jab and falcon kick, immediately followed by two taunts. This is the way to victory.

 

[choknater]

haha it's not really drama at all, we're just discussing the attitudes of the top players in a thread where it's common to do so.

and anyway, a lot of people demand so much from the top players. like for example, they want armada to win more us tournaments before they consider him the best in the world. to me, those opinions hardly matter, and i think mango and armada are pretty evenly matched.

people seem to forget about the glory and money and fame of the single major tournament. even if people don't believe armada is the best... it doesn't change that he worked his *** off to win genesis 2. he won the tournament that mattered the most. this is why there is only one EVO every year. all the hype builds up to one moment.

also, to note about armada's young link: even if he picked up the character just to time out hbox, he IS good with the character. lovage was talking to me about how they were playing friendlies. he beat armada's peach in a friendly, and then lost to his young link. pretty legit stuff to beat oscar with young link, that match is really tough for ylink.

 

[ShroudedOne]

Wow, Armada beat Lovage's Fox with Ylink? Now that's something impressive. All we get to see of his Ylink is when he fights Hbox, anyways (not saying that I can beat Hbox or Lovage either, just in case anyone thought I was, or is curious).

 

[choknater]

haha don't worry man, no one's assuming that.

and yea, oscar just noted to me. it was a friendly but yeah, it happened

 

[leffen]

Armada's YL is a beast, esp with me in teams ;> He is soooo underrated in teams its not even funny, mid tier easily (tier list has him below kirby, ness,pichu -_-).

Both me and armada (and everyone we've played) believe that fox+YL is the strongest counter to most puff teams. If anyone'd like me to go indepth I can but I think you get the idea.

 

[genkaku]

It's like... take picasso. The guy was a total d***, no question. But he was also the best artist in the world, no question. So when he says "ahhh ****. I ****" sometimes you just gotta' accept it, 'cause it's kinda' true, lol.

Picasso>Matisse.

 

[choknater]

Armada's YL is a beast, esp with me in teams ;> He is soooo underrated in teams its not even funny, mid tier easily (tier list has him below kirby, ness,pichu -_-).

Both me and armada (and everyone we've played) believe that fox+YL is the strongest counter to most puff teams. If anyone'd like me to go indepth I can but I think you get the idea.

i can vouch for this, haha i've pulled 2v1 comebacks with the kid. if young link has a decent advantage against a character in 1v1, it becomes a very large advantage in teams. he's so mobile and his survivability + his ability to pull bombs increases in teams. he can't combo well, but getting in those good hits is more important in teams as well. he's just a really good team character haha.

ahhh i remember carrying my teammate in a 2v1 vs shroomed + pink shinobi. ylink is so great!

 

[ShroudedOne]

I've only played around with Ylink, but the more I play around with him, the more I like him. He's really fun, and I like running a train of infinite nairs on bad people.

 

[choknater]

if you like infinite nairs, try his bairs. the hitbox is his whole body and the rate of attacks is much faster.

 

[Tekk]

Both me and armada (and everyone we've played) believe that fox+YL is the strongest counter to most puff teams. If anyone'd like me to go indepth I can but I think you get the idea.

Go indepth please.

 

[Pi]

if you like infinite nairs, try his bairs. the hitbox is his whole body and the rate of attacks is much faster.

i would imagine it's not so easy to dash bair as it is to dash nair

wait
i guess you could reverse it

 

[crush]

i link toon link in project m. hes like a top tier young link

 

[leffen]

Go indepth please.

Ylink has most of his weaknesses removed (killing, ppl camping him, not being able to pull bombs etc) and he is a fkn beast at supporting. His long lasting hitboxes and his mobility sideways in the air makes it extremely easy for him to do teamcombos. Running away and pulling bombs is almost unpunishable and a great bait if the teammate is on (esp if fox). He doesnt get comboed that hard and he can gimp/control with nairs, fairs and dsmashes until the teammate ready to setup ****.

His recovery is great in teams and he can save ppl REALLY, and I mean REALLY fking well

vs puff:
bombs/arrows/boomerang =fox uair (->)/Ylink dair, easy ****ing kills.
Fox bair/nair -> bombs.
Puff slow= lots of bombs = lots of problems.
Bombs = by FAR best rest saving tool, I got rested like 4 times in one stock and armada had no problems saving me because he can just chuck a bomb.
puff CANNOT kill Ylink at all because he will just be in the air or in his shield (air = uair/bair for fox if hes trying to catch Ylink) and his projectiles makes it really hard for puff to get in position. Ylinks projectiles forces Puff to stay on the ground and fox ***** any puff on the ground basically.
Ylinks attacks (esp nair) > everything puff has except except for bair and uair, both easily punishable by fox since they have such small/bad hitboxes.

Ylink can actually interrupt puff saving his teammate because of bombs etc and gimping puff is really easy with the help of bombs lol (mixups like throwing bomb between puff and the stage, fox jumping over/behind that bombs trajectory and shining all puffs other options, pound away, spacing away bair to avoid bomb and she cant drop with uair because then bomb will hit and shes too slow to go under ).

Its really hard to explain past that point but hopefully you learned smth. Probably shouldnt be spilling my beans since Aniolas prob isnt coming to apex (tho AR will probably team with M2K if nothing goes wrong) ).

 

[LumpyCPU...]

where is this blog youz guyz iz talkin about?

 

[Bones0]

http://www.genesisdbr.com/blog/2011/08/23/genesisss-2/

. . .