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PPMD's Falco Discussion Thread

SPAWN

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spaw#333
Good **** PP on your set with Hbox. Saw the match on FoD/PS. I'll watch the rest later. Commentary/crowd reactions is too good.

Is there a writeup vs Jiggs I could read somewhere? I suck so much at camping lasers/putting on pressure vs Jiggs. I don't feel like going through 700ish posts.

DrPP- Any tips on lasering Jiggs? Her floatyness makes it so hard to do. Also did you play Tope/do you know who put him into losers (I know he lost to Lozr).
 

Dr Peepee

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I did a write-up on Puff in the stickied Falco matchup guide that Mogwai and I are working on, but I haven't updated it recently like I know I need to.

Lasers vs Jiggz are best when she's falling from offstage or when you need to get down(drop from higher platfrom to lower one and laser, or from lower to ground). You also want to laser puff before she does her aerials on you because that turns her around and makes her use Fair as well as throw off her timing for Bairs. Obviously laser primetime is when you get her in her shield. You don't want her to jump out so you keep shooting her to keep her in one place and scared.

I put Tope in losers bracket.

Oh and thanks dude. =)
 

SPAWN

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spaw#333
Alright thanks for the laser tips. Now I can ask not such a general question since that'll be easier to answer. It's kind of hard to describe in words but I'll try.

I feel like when I'm lasering Jiggs, her movement is so much trickier than all the other characters. When she double jumps up high, you can't hit with a shl. So generally what I do is dj ff double laser however that doesn't hit either. Is there a way to hit Jiggs while she's higher up in the air without her maneuvering around you and hitting you after she's out of shl range? Like when you do the sh ff dl, you're only doing two lasers. So that means that in the whole time that you're in the air, only two hits are coming out. I feel like Jiggs can just jump around and get in between/over one of the lasers and just repeatedly hit you afterwards.

I think you should update your Jiggs MU guide since you just beat Hbox in that set. I bet you just recently learned a ton of stuff that you know you want to share with all the other Falco players. ;)

How close was it between you/Tope btw since you're awake. ;)

Thanks again for all the tips PP. LOL @ the PP headshake. The South is just too funny with noticing people's habits/coming up with funny things to say.
 

SPAWN

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PP- Critique me vs Yedi so that way I can get good with Falco vs Sheik and visa versa. ;P
 

Dr Peepee

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@Spawn: Yeah I plan on updating the guide. Falcos everywhere need to **** lol.

See, anything like a DJ FF DL gets you too much risk for wayyyy too little gain. Puff definitely can float around your lasers and hit you, and that leads to terrible, terrible things in the matchup. You have to think of it like this: what is puff gonna do while she's floating above your head? Nothing that can hurt you. She falls slowly so she has to do weird stuff like other jumps and aerials to make you expect her incoming attack and then she'll try to fall onto you/space with an aerial. When Puff is ground level or slightly above ground level, that's when you need lasers out, and generally you can tell when you'll need em. If you stop lasering and start thinking about your other tools, like Bair and Utilt and Nair(yes Nair, I used it some vs Puff and it definitely has it's uses), then you can observe Puff much better and react to her movements more easily.


Me vs Tope? I think I 2 and....4 stocked him? I'm pretty sure he SD'd at least once in the second match though. It was recorded so we can see how close I am there.

LOL did my headshake really make it into the commentary? Dang it. XD

Edit: Can I do the critique tomorrow/today when I'm more myself? lol
 

SPAWN

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Please do DrPP. Please do. Go to sleep now. Also thanks. That advice vs Puff is like ALMOST the best advice I've ever received for any match up that I've asked about.

See people, that's how you get good answers/good advice. Don't ask what do I do, how do I get better, why do I suck? Think of specific areas/aspects you're having trouble with. This can be in general, or matchup specific but matchup specific will get you a better answer. I wish more people did it like that. /as you can tell I used to be one of those people that said, "how do I get better"
 

SPAWN

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I say we all just say good things we can do vs Puff.

I noticed in the set with PP vs Hbox, there was a lot of uthrow>**** going on. That shouldn't combo if they neutral di and then smash di the lasers like crazy I thought... does it legitimately work on Puff or is it true that all Puffs (I almost said hungryboxes xD) have horrible S/DI.

DrPP- Feel free to point out stupid habits/mistakes you notice I have in your critiques. I won't take it personally. ;) I told him he has trouble knowing when he should/shouldn't apply pressure and he has trouble keeping the pressure on once he gets the initial pressure. ...However I'm not one to be giving Falco advice compared to like, people in this thread LOL.
 

FoxLisk

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Here's my amateur analysis on DrPP's games v Hbox:

He already explained the laser use. he basically made it hard for hbox to do anything but jump high, and then he FH baired him. if hbox didn't do that, he'd grab -> uthrow -> dubious combo **** (im also interested in how well that combos. i saw hbox get out of it at least once, is that just %?).

he also dairs the **** out of hbox all day. he rest punished at low percent with dair -> dair -> etc combos. i think most falcos fail to use dair properly because they're so used to dair-> shine or dair -> utilt or something, but PP understands the magic of just dairing over and over in tech chases and such. he racked up hella damage doing that.

and the things Dogy was saying on the mic: didn't try to edgeguard, tried to keep the middle of the stage or stay under a platform. he played low risk most of the time because there's nothing high risk/high reward to do to jiggs (that i can think of), only high risk/low reward, which is much worse than low risk/low reward.

Oh, and good job, DrPP! i'm so happy a top puff player got beaten. maybe this will inspire people to learn the matchup instead of just whining about puff all the time. (no hate for hbox, i just want people to say that hbox is mad good instead of that puff is broken).
 

SPAWN

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FoxLisk, that was not an amateur understanding at all LOL! The only thing you missed that hasn't been gone over yet is the techchasing but you were pretty vague about the use of his dair so I'll give it to you.

DrPP- Could you explain to us about the use of uthrow, I've noticed when people neutral di>sdi the lasers it doesn't combo at all? More specifically I'd like to understand the throw combos on Jiggs that you've been doing.
 

JPOBS

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upthrow doesnt actually combo on anyone and the reason is because the lasers actually reset you're oppoenent as they are in the air so technically they can do anything. also, if you DI away from flaco he cant follow up with anything other than moar laz0rs.

This leads me to think a few things:
1) Hbox has terrible throw DI. I think its because falco's traditionally never or rarely grab, so Hbox doesnt have "DI hard away from falco on throws" built into his brain the way "DI away from Falcon combos" would for example be. I mean seriously, if you watch the sets, hbox does a terrible job and most of the time doesnt go anywhere and eats easy Dairs from PP.

2) Jiggs actually has a tougher time getting out of lasers than other chars. This is all theory here but i've been thinking:
Throw animation duration is based on character weight. Jiggs is one of the Lightest characters in the game. The lasers have stuntime. So assuimg jiggs gets hits by the lasers, it is feasible to understand that because of the faster throw animation, falco might actually by able to upthrow->aerial jiggs based on a combination of these things. I dont know for sure. i just know upthrow->aerial doesnt actually combo at all so hbox might be terrible at DI or we've stumbled across a largely overlooked factor of the upthrow.
 

Mogwai

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I want to expect better of you, but I know not to
Usually when Falco grabs, you're sitting in your shield expecting shield pressure, so it's really hard to react to immediate uthrows with proper DI.

From my experience, on FFs, uthrow combos when the lasers don't hit at lower %s, and they can jump out when lasers do hit and on Floaties (and FFs at higher %s), uthrow combos when lasers do hit because they get higher from the initial throw which gives you more time to get to them before the lasers reset the hitstun, whereas if they DI and don't get hit by lasers, I have a hard time getting to them before they're out of hitstun.
 

JPOBS

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yea i feel the exact same.

grabbing is the new falco meta. Shiz was also grabbing up a storm at the tourny on WC recently.
 

KirbyKaze

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Hungrybox has been killed by Zhu's D-throw on Pokemon Stadium.

He's really, really good but it's not because of DI lol.

edit: someone will undoubtedly translate that as me saying Hbox is good because Jiggs is so Baroque-In. This is not my intention. He is good because he's extremely minimalist, hyper-conservative, and plays extremely safe, which are very good things to be in this game.
 

Animal

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according to mangos status PP ***** HBOX. ?!?!?!?!?!?!?! is this true where when explain
 

KirbyKaze

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according to mangos status PP ***** HBOX. ?!?!?!?!?!?!?! is this true where when explain
Herb 3

PP 3-1ed him in WFs
PP 3-1ed him in GFs

Stages are hard to remember. I think Hungrybox won on FoD in the first set and lost on Battlefield, Pokemon Stadium, and somewhere else. Livestream was saved from match 2 onwards.

In set two PP won on Pokemon Stadium, Battlefield, Dreamland, and lost on FoD again.
 

KirbyKaze

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*sigh*

I guess if Falcos can do it, there's no real excuse for Sheiks anymore.

*cracks knuckles*

Okay guys. It's time for Sheiks to get campy.
 

Dr Peepee

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Uh, for Upthrows, I didn't actually combo anything. If you notice, he tried to float away typically after he got upthrown, so I just chased him a little with a DJ Nair or something. That led to the "bad DI" thing I guess.

He would try to mix it up by DI'ing in(or maybe he just wasn't ready), and sometimes I could get a Dair off.

I don't remember lots of % stuff right now, but I think at fairly low percents he was at a weird height I couldn't cover very well and at....100%+ I think he may have gone too high.
 

DtJ SmithZzz

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Sitting beside the greatest Falco evah while he ***** puff WF and GF is a truly grand experience.
Then the Car Ride came...
 

unknown522

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This is dismissive and hard to believe. My tech skill isn't that terrible, and I've seen you give a lot of good, articulate advice before. If nothing else, you can tell me what tech skill is most important to work on before i should worry about other parts of my game. If you didn't feel like helping at all, it's easier to not respond than to throw out non-constructive criticism.
Well, it's pretty hard for me to say anything besides "don't miss L-cancels" when a lot of the punishments is from techskill flubs. I dunno how that's being elitist, and I wasn't trying to be offensive at all. I mean, I can give advice, but it will almost always include the techskill errors, or a missed L-cancel, or something.

This post bothered me a enormously. Aside from being a really unhelpful thing to say, it's also pretty insulting. You're basically saying "You're so bad that it's not even worth trying to help you." That sends a really elitist message, and I would hope that top players would be more helpful, or at least maintain a decent level of civility. I don't know if you were just in a bad mood or what, but I think you should try to be a little bit more considerate.
I am trying to help. I never even tried to imply that he's bad or anything. It's legitimate advice, and is something that I am trying to work on myself, because I make a lot of techskill errors at times.

i don't even get that, do you not see the game out side of techskill? Like you couldn't tell him to laser more/less, switch up his approach or ANYTHING? It's pretty clear the game isn't all about techskill, go tell mango when he picked up falco and beat everyone still, regardless of his junky *** techskill, that he needs more techskill before anything. :embarrass
mango does have an incredible amount of techskill, though he may not look like it.




Anyways, to all those I quoted: I don't know how what I said was "outrageous", but there was no intent at all to insult FoxLisk. You may not realize it now, but it is really legitimate advice. I actually did take the time to watch all the matches and pay attention as well.
 

DippnDots

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tech skill doesnt only equate to doing flashy lovage ****

consistency with the basics is a hell of a lot more important than a bag full of tricks

mango is extremely consistent with the basics, which is why he doesn't look techy because he isn't doing anything super fast/flashy. A super important part of tech skill that people miss sometimes is simply doing small things like wavedashing out of a shine AS SOON AS YOU CAN, not sitting in that shine for a single frame longer than you have to. Or dashing AS SOON AS YOU CAN after jabbing. Inputting animations for your character at the precise moment they're able to change is much more important than being able to multi shine a shield.

I can always tell at tournaments when someone is really really good just because the way their character moves. It flows and looks much more refined. It isn't choppy at all. I've sat down next to scar and cactuar, not knowing who they were, just because I could tell the way they were moving their character looked so much smoother than people on other tvs.
 

Mogwai

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I want to expect better of you, but I know not to
my opinion on this is that if you're tech skill is shakey and you want advice, just label it as such and be honest and it might be best to do it in a new thread so that no one loses it in the post influx of a large thread like this. I know personally I don't have patience for critiquing videos that don't at least have a certain level of tech skill, because, as Unknown is saying, so much of what we can tell you right now is "don't miss l-cancels" or "make your wavelands smoother" and it's stuff that
a) you should know you need to work on and
b) is completely unhelpful to you solving the problem.

The issue is that a lot of us are so far removed from basic technical barriers that we can't really help you improve because these things are second nature to us and the things that we need to focus on are very minute compared to the broader technical issues of a newer player.

These are actually the same reasons why I don't frequently post videos and ask for advice... I know most of what I'm doing wrong, and while I'm sure there's more that I need to work on, I would like to fix my technical issues to the point of being a non-factor before I ask someone for advice.


tl;dr, make a separate thread about it where a player who is only slightly your senior in the community might be able to give you advice. Shiz doesn't wanna have to tell you to hit more waveshines. PP doesn't wanna have to tell you to fast fall your lasers.
 

FoxLisk

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I know it's stupid to post relatively low level vidoes in this thread, but my experience with posting videos in threads that aren't already well trafficked (in this and the fox forum) is that nobody pays any attention.

And yes, I know that a lot of the issues are technical, and exactly how to not get punished for a lot of stuff that I just mess up, especially in tournament situations. I'm looking for advice on how to play the matchup, which I think you can give to even a player without a lot of tech skill. EWC gave some great advice on how to think about lasers in the matchup, for example, so obviously I'm not so bad as to be below advice. I've gone through players' videos worse than I, and found plenty of things to point out that are non-technical. If you just ignore every situation that goes sour because of the player messing up tech skill, and focus on things like how they react badly to shield pressure, or don't laser well, or don't capitalize on openings well, and then add a footnote about what tech skill they most need to clear up, I think you can give a technically weak player a lot of good advice.
 

Rubyiris

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Or they can just not bother, and wait until the person is at least technically proficient enough to do the BASICS.
 

KirbyKaze

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I know it's stupid to post relatively low level vidoes in this thread, but my experience with posting videos in threads that aren't already well trafficked (in this and the fox forum) is that nobody pays any attention.

And yes, I know that a lot of the issues are technical, and exactly how to not get punished for a lot of stuff that I just mess up, especially in tournament situations. I'm looking for advice on how to play the matchup, which I think you can give to even a player without a lot of tech skill. EWC gave some great advice on how to think about lasers in the matchup, for example, so obviously I'm not so bad as to be below advice. I've gone through players' videos worse than I, and found plenty of things to point out that are non-technical. If you just ignore every situation that goes sour because of the player messing up tech skill, and focus on things like how they react badly to shield pressure, or don't laser well, or don't capitalize on openings well, and then add a footnote about what tech skill they most need to clear up, I think you can give a technically weak player a lot of good advice.
Nobody wants to sift through a match of a person who can't do their basics. I'm sorry, but if you can't do your stuff properly, it is more than likely that the prevailing theme of any match we watch of you vs decent player will be "death by self error". Not only is that extremely boring and excruciating to watch, it makes for a bad review.

Moreover, there's no guarantee that you'll even be able to use anything we say if you can't hit your L-cancels. I mean, let's say we do everything you suggest. We go through the match, ignore the glaring errors, come to the conclusion that you're lasers are positioned badly for the Sheik you're fighting. We say "Laser this way to stop Sheik from ****** your anus with Nair". But how do we know you can even take that advice and apply it properly if you're not technically sound? Similarly, how do we know you don't already know to laser that way but are just screwing up every time?
 

SPAWN

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spaw#333
Here's PP vs HBOX and SleepyK vs Tope and LOZR vs Tope and other stuff (I like the word and as you can tell):


http://www.ustream.tv/recorded/5766149

You just have to fast forward around. Commentary is amazing. If someone wants to label times go for it.
 

unknown522

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I know it's stupid to post relatively low level vidoes in this thread, but my experience with posting videos in threads that aren't already well trafficked (in this and the fox forum) is that nobody pays any attention.

And yes, I know that a lot of the issues are technical, and exactly how to not get punished for a lot of stuff that I just mess up, especially in tournament situations. I'm looking for advice on how to play the matchup, which I think you can give to even a player without a lot of tech skill. EWC gave some great advice on how to think about lasers in the matchup, for example, so obviously I'm not so bad as to be below advice. I've gone through players' videos worse than I, and found plenty of things to point out that are non-technical. If you just ignore every situation that goes sour because of the player messing up tech skill, and focus on things like how they react badly to shield pressure, or don't laser well, or don't capitalize on openings well, and then add a footnote about what tech skill they most need to clear up, I think you can give a technically weak player a lot of good advice.
That's not the point that I was trying to make. I never said that you were a bad player. The point is: if I watch the matches, and see that you're dying by your own mistakes, then you already know what you're doing wrong. it's hard to give matchup-specific advice, when you're making a lot of technical errors, since they put you in situations that could've been avoided, and has nothing to do with the matchup itself. I can't stress this enough though: You're not a bad player!

Anyways, I did write comments about the matches last night. They're on the marth matches. I'm not done with the other 2 matches yet.


edit:

FoxLisk vs KnightPreator

0:06 - when he FH'd the second time, he was open, if you continued to run in. Marth sucks when he's high in the air. You could do u-air/tilt, or try to bait an aerial with your shield or CC, and punish.

0:09 - He was pretty close again. You could've ran in and CC'd that aerial and shined him. For those 2 points, you could also try running in with your shield, then doing shine OoS. If you make a marth mis-space an aerial, it's always worth it.

0:40 - you shold've just sweetspotted from high. He would've missed. Recovering from low is usually bad, unless you are sure you can get the walltech. Alternativelt, if you didn't start the firebird early, he would've missed.

from there up to 1:30 - Good movement, avoiding getting hit, aside from the slow shine after he f-air'd you. A lot of times, you're lasering too close, without putting any additional pressure. If you hit him with a laser up close, then grab him. If you see him jump, then d-air/n-ait. It'll stuff his aerials when you're up close. You could also run in and shine (or double shine) into his shield. You could possibly catch im trying to do something OoS, or just be safe on his shield by doing that. More importantly, he is using his shield a lot, especially after you hit him with a laser, so in this case, you could go for the grab. I prefer u-throw, but do whichever throw you like, as long as you're not f-throwing him at 0%.

1:33 - he rolled into your space after you shot a laser. That's what you should be looking for. If he rolls right onto you, then you should shine/u-tilt him.

2:08 - Close call. Gotta SH those d-airs. Marth can't really do much to shield pressure, other than WD out, or rolling. It's not like sheik, where she can n-air you, so you don't need to space much on the shield. Even if he gets away from your d-air, you can shield if he f-smashes, but if you do the d-air properly, you will hit him if he tries to WD behind you.

Your third stock was pretty much him punishing you for under-shooting aerials. The missed edgeguard also set you back. The Marth-Killer was a bad idea that time, since he was so close to the stage. You could've taken the ledge, and abused the invincibility, to prevent him from getting back. He probably would've switched his recovery based on what you were doing, but taking the ledge is your best be anyway.

Stock 4 was pretty much the same thing, but with more tech skill errors. You were doing really well on your first 2 stocks, but then you kind of just fell apart. It is pretty tough on FD though, since you can get CG'd easy, and there's no top platform to go to.


Redd vs FoxLisk
Game 1:

0:17 - you definitely should've done d-air -> u-tilt -> move.

0:30 - you could've CC'd that ledge-hop u-air, and shine -> bair him off the stage.

0:40 - dash-attacking into shields is bad. Try grabbing instead.

0:50 - that was a really bad time to laser. It's all about CC.

1:29 - Should've just d-air him.

1:44 - Punished by another dash-attack.

1:51 - either shorten illusion, or firebird sweetspot.

Your first 3 stocks lost, were pure tech skill errors. Even if you didn't laser the wrong way, you still shot it pretty high. He could've crouched and d-tilt'd you anyway. Jab also generally sucks, unless they're in the air. If you get CC'd, you're screwed. You should try to shine/f-tilt in those situations.

Game 2:

I think that corneria was overall a bad choice. The slopes mess with lasering, and falco's jump height really screws him with no platforms + no flat land. I guess you were just trying to force him off marth or something, which isn't so bad I guess.

0:43 - could've b-air through his n-air.

0:49 - could've b-air through his n-air again. Even if he didn't b-air, you could've put pressure on his shield, starting with b-air. Try to contest his moves. He's fox.

1:40 - B-air OoS.

2:04 - Something a lot of players don't know: If you did a u-throw at that percent, and he doesn't DI, or if he DI in front of you. You could do a f-smash and it will link (only on fox). If he DI behind you, you can link a shine.

2:15 - just b-air on those edgeguards.

On your final stock, you started to contest his moves a bit more. That was good.


Justin vs FoxLisk


0:08 - if you opponent PS a low/mid laser for a distance, just SH over it and keep lasering.

0:16 - he started to try to run away from you. Since he's falcon, just rush him down and combo him.

1:10 - you could've followed up with something.

1:18 - jabs suck. Try to f-tilt or aerial, or somthing.

1:26 - when there right above you on a platform, attack with SH u-air, or b-air at their feet. You'll most likely get a shield-stab

1:48 - You were blindly shooting lasers as you respawned. You didn't stop when he rolled into you. You could've shined him after that first laser that you shot.

1:53 - you f-threw him, then tried to laser point-blank again and took a knee in the face. Sometimes when you're close to the opponent, you should try to pressure his shield with aerials. Espcially falcon, since he can't really do too much OoS, other than SH d-air over your shine, if you do an aerial too high into his shield.

2:19 - just shine on his tech. Not every tech-chase has to be an f-smash. You wouldn't get anything out of f-smashing him, since he's a heavy character that's being sent across the stage. You should only f-smash when they're at the edge, or at very high percent.

2:50 - here's an example of what you shouldn't do vs falcon. If you feel pressured, then buffer jump and move to a platform, until you're ready. Beware of u-air though, when he's below you.

3:07 - CC his jab and shine him.

3:10 - that combo you started...you unecessarily keep trying to tech-chase him. You could've filled in those spots where you let him land with attacks (u-tilt for example).

from 2:50 up to the end of the match - it feels like you were holding yourself back after being laser-happy. Maybe because you were getting punished so much for lasering. You should laser at a distance more often, otherwise falcon can SH over your laser, or go under your laser with raptor boost, leaving little room to escape. When you're up close, you should be trying to lock him down with attacks, until you get a hit, then combo him.



Overall notes (try working on these):


- in general, it feels like you're too laser-happy. You know it's broken, but you keep shooting point-blank, or jumping forward with lasers. Sometimes shooting just 1 or 2 lasers is good, then stopping. Everytime you laser, it feels like you have this need to keep shooting, not knowing when to stop.
- folling the opponent's roll right after you laser.
- combo game needs work. Dropping every combo is bad.
- edgeguarding. Use your b-air. Stand closer to the ledge. Try to get them off the stage with b-air.
- Contest the opponents moves. When they're not marth, you will most likely beat their moves, by virtue of being falco.
- b-air more as a spacing tool.
- u-tilt
- Shield pressure using double-shine sometimes. Also try doing aerials a bit later into their shield. A lot of times you could've gotten shield-grabbed by the opponent (sheik and marth may be a big issue for you if that keeps happening).
- Stop trying to predict your opponent on tech-chases. You don't need mindgames, since you have a laser, and a shine.
 
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