PPMD's Falco Discussion Thread

[Dr Peepee]

lol
what do you think about turn around utilt when theyre coming right at you?
i mean they can bait it and dd grab, but i always see pp doing it correctly =o
whats the secret?

That is something I pretty much do on reaction(or that weird instinct prediction that kinda feels like reaction which is impossible to explain) and when I'm probably closer to Falcon. If he's trying to Nair from farther away I usually go for Nair through or Bair to beat Falcon's Nair(or CC shine/uptilt/stuff).

falco dittos remind me

how do u beat ledgehop double lasers in the ditto?

Depends on the height and how close you are to the edge lol. Man I love Falco he never has short answers for anything(maybe everyone's like that though and I just know Falco best but eh).

Things include:

-PS
-taking laser(can SDI for spacing/baits) and doing a move or shielding or whatever it gets tricky
-get above(like on a plat or jump) and punish
-get under higher lasers and dash attack or upsmash or uptilt if you're close
-reflector? never tried it but I just thought of it lol I should test this and see if there's a use
-bair sometimes
-shooting back(most likely resets them to the edge though)
-going behind Falco when he shoots? risky but Mango would probably do it and make it scary LOL


okay that's all off the top of my head as I thought about this.

 

[DJRome]

falco dittos remind me

how do u beat ledgehop double lasers in the ditto?

same way most chars beat it. if they are doing it when ur close just go hit them with cc and if not go away and over the lasers w/ an overhead move

 

[tarheeljks]

moose you gotta be more potent with your combos, you drop a lot of would be combos by doing things that either just wouldn't work, ineffective, or didnt even try to extend.

examples are at 0:08, 0:14, 0:23 (you could have combo'd another nair, or fair or uptilt imo)

those are just some examples, watching he rest of the set cuz darkrain *****
edit: lmfao that combo he did to your second stock was ridic

the read where turned around so he could knee the tech to the left was disgusting

 

[Dr Peepee]

Played around with the reflector on double laser some

Seems like Falco can't get more than like a jab or Ftilt off on himself if he's trying to jump away asap. Plus anything not-laser you can just FH/SH/WD out of the shine to do.

It's a really funny thing that I need to try out on some better Falco.

 

[Rubyiris]

wut, marth is free. falco wins that m/u LOL.

Sheik beats falco tho.

fox also beats falco.

falco beats himself harder than any other character in the game.

 

[Druggedfox]

Sheik and marth are pretty comparable in terms of difficulty; i'd hardly say one is free and the other wins the matchup

 

[Mogwai]

they both free. falco got a gun, neither those *****s got ****.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Character to character they tend to outrange Falco though. I don't think things can be so clear-cut.

Not to mention both characters host a wide variety of anti-laser tactics that create really intricate matchups in my opinion.

 

[Druggedfox]

Marths sword might as well be a projectile

 

[DJRome]

they both free. falco got a gun, neither those *****s got ****.

<3 fa da gun

 

[Moooose]

falco dittos remind me

how do u beat ledgehop double lasers in the ditto?

you can get real close, hold shield, the shine-bair out between the two lasers

 

[Brookman]

wut, marth is free. falco wins that m/u LOL.

Sheik beats falco tho.

fox also beats falco.

falco beats himself harder than any other character in the game.

Too bad falco isn't playing you. you're most likely basis this all in personal experience. People always said sheik vs. falcon was way in sheik's favor by far but hax has done his homework. Hax's gameplay to the point that he probably won't lose to any sheik player again.

I don't often put a lot of stock into character match ups, cause in the end it's all hard work and play style. Character selection counts but only for the amount of work you put into that character. M2K is a good example.

Back in 06-07 he had refined his character strategies vs. the player pool to the point that he was referred to as a robot. There really wasn't anything exceptionally robotic about his style, he was just really efficient. He always had trouble with KDJ but that probably had about as much to do with his confidence as it did with his character.

tl;dr: this game always comes down to player vs. player for me, and once you get beyond the fantasy/theory-oh of character match ups the sooner you can start actually playing this game on the player vs. player level.

p.s. I'm sure PP wouldn't have nearly as much success if he approached the game on strictly a character vs. character level. Marth can chain throw fox and falco but YOU, THE PLAYER, have to land that grab in the first place.


@mooose: more up tilt. focus on your lasers and try to be more precise, dark rain was playing around pretty much all of your strategy.

Practice wavedashing more. If you can't wavedash consistently, aside from the most obvious problem you lose out on a lot of speed and mobility.

all in all, you should try to play more patiently, that's something that separates a lot of the good players from the average ones. really pick/choose your set ups/positioning.

If you don't have a really solid understanding of your opponent you may fall into habits that just don't work at all.

most notably, polish your tech skill (wavedash, fast falls, moving out of l cancels, platform wavelands, etc etc), work on your movement (wavedash/dash dancing), and try to play more creatively. Your style is pretty linear (laser . .. . laser . . . . zzz)

lastly, for emphasis, more up tilt. **** is good as fell vs. falcon.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rN0ENOpLd6A&t=4m50s Except when it's like this. He's shielding and facing away from you. GRAB.

 

[LumpyCPU...]

just wanted to say that i'm finally watching Pound 5 finals.

thoroughly impressed with all parties involved... save for the TO lol

 

[tarheeljks]

what's the dossier of sheik's hax has beaten? not questioning how good he is against sheik, but i actually don't know who he has beaten


edit: besides amsah of course

 

[choknater]

he has beaten amsah, i think that says a lot. idk bout tope, maybe, probably.

mango's sheik would tap.

but he would say something like

"nah im not going sheik im not a ***

**** you guys"

 

[tarheeljks]

right, i'm genuinely curious and was being lazy b/c i thought someone might know. what do you think his chances would be against (in form) lucien

edit: that's at you chok since i know you've seen, prob played against lucien

 

[Dr Peepee]

About that linear play comment Brookman made:

I'm of the opinion that any style in Melee can be pushed really far(Midwest tended to have more "dull" styles like with what Dope had with Falco but he still *****) but it'll be harder if you don't conform in some ways(like I definitely did to a point but I like the stuff I changed).

It can be generally argued that Moose should mix his stuff up even if it is linear so that he can't be read as easily(honestly if you have something unique and can mix that one thing up well it takes you far....all options should be considered this way in my opinion and it opens a lot of doors for conditioning and playstyle expansion).

*why is my parenthetical info always so much longer LOL





The way I approach this game is weird and one day I should sit down and write about wtf I think I'm doing LOL(I came up with an idea that I think I'll start using sitting here for example....how does that even happen LOL).



I would never lose to Mango's Sheik in tournament(see you on aim scrub <3) =D


About Hax:

I think he's lost to Tope before? I'm not really sure Hax's record against everything is really weird.

 

[JPOBS]

thanks for all the help guys regardign double laser. i guess my biggest problem is once i get hit by the lasers falco always hits me (combo) before i can hit him. i'll try some stuff next time.

regarding hax, he's beat amash, tec0 and vanz's sheik in tournament i think. iirc he also beat tope but maybe tope beat him back? he also beats m2ks sheik in friendlies consistently afaik. (which is saying something, m2k doesnt sandbag lulz)

 

[Mew2King]

DrPP talk to me privately I have a strategy to save you a few hundred

hax is weird. It depends how warmed up he is I think. When hax is not warmed up, I have 4 stocked him countless times with my sheik, and twice in a row before with my jigglypuff (by planking lol)

but when he is fully warmed up, we go approximately 50/50 in falcon vs sheik and jiggs vs sheik (I play gay tho). He goes 50/50 with a lot of my chars. He seems to suck vs falco though (I say this because last year at pound4, I 3 stocked him w/ my falco in a friendly after he did much better vs all my other characters. Then i believe i did it in another friendly at rom3, but don't quote me on that I don't fully remember. Not too much to go off of but yeah that's where I get that opinion from). That's all I really know as far as he goes.

I also believe at high level sheik vs falcon is between 50-55% favor of sheik. I think most falcon's just suck at the matchup while I am good at the matchup

brookman there were also style counters. KDJ's sheik countered me (and I sucked vs sheik back then), Azen countered KDJ, and I countered Azen.

 

[Moooose]

About that linear play comment Brookman made:

I'm of the opinion that any style in Melee can be pushed really far(Midwest tended to have more "dull" styles like with what Dope had with Falco but he still *****) but it'll be harder if you don't conform in some ways(like I definitely did to a point but I like the stuff I changed).

It can be generally argued that Moose should mix his stuff up even if it is linear so that he can't be read as easily(honestly if you have something unique and can mix that one thing up well it takes you far....all options should be considered this way in my opinion and it opens a lot of doors for conditioning and playstyle expansion).

*why is my parenthetical info always so much longer LOL





The way I approach this game is weird and one day I should sit down and write about wtf I think I'm doing LOL(I came up with an idea that I think I'll start using sitting here for example....how does that even happen LOL).



I would never lose to Mango's Sheik in tournament(see you on aim scrub <3) =D


About Hax:

I think he's lost to Tope before? I'm not really sure Hax's record against everything is really weird.

im not really sure by brookman saying i have a linear playstyle?? is that opposed to like a quadratic playstyle? what players do you think have non-linear playstyles

 

[Dr Peepee]

No he means what you're doing is pretty straightforward/easy to predict I suppose lol.

btw m2k I pm'd you just making sure you got it since you're not on aim.

 

[choknater]

one thing i noticed about moose and other falcos like leffen is that they get too conservative at times. for example when you shine a shield, you can react to their roll by simply sh lasering out of your shine so that the pressure doesnt have to stop. moose i think with more confidence and more combo practice you should be able to beat darkrain.

so just a little more offense imo. darkrain is really good at both running away and getting in, but falco can lock him down first.

 

[Brookman]

brookman there were also style counters. KDJ's sheik countered me (and I sucked vs sheik back then), Azen countered KDJ, and I countered Azen.

I'm aware but I didn't feel like noting that would contribute to the topic. I do miss those days though, don't you?

 

[Druggedfox]

LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL as opposed to a quadratic play style

oh man, that was awesome.

Who counters DrPP? >_>

 

[Brookman]

Armada's play style:

Moose's play style:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=868nb2Cypw8&feature=feedrec_grec_index

 

[iode]

Hi, I've been reading the boards for a while but was always too timid to post since everyone else had such high post counts that my earlier opinions might be discarded or flamed. But I've been watching the most recent Pound 5 friendlies between PP and Mango in falco dittos and something's been nagging me. Is it just me, or is mango's falco continuously producing the strangest offshoots of metagame "progression" ever? He's doing very surprising things with moonwalking with varying characters (fox/falco) that I haven't seen just a mere year ago, considering that moonwalking was considered a solved technique by then. Is moonwalking with spacies worth looking into?

 

[Metal Reeper]

Nah Mango is just too good and I guess was just messin around real quick. Not saying he was sandbagging or anything, idk.

Colbol has the best spacie moonwalks <3

 

[Kanelol]

watching colbol lose is more fun than watching most people win just because of his moonwalks

like, moonwalk to shine bair WHO DOES THAT

 

[Metal Reeper]

Moonwalk>Bair.
And he goes sooooo dam far with it.
my bf <3

 

[bolt.]

When I grab a falcon at really low percent what is the best throw to use?

 

[Rubyiris]

Too bad falco isn't playing you. you're most likely basis this all in personal experience. People always said sheik vs. falcon was way in sheik's favor by far but hax has done his homework. Hax's gameplay to the point that he probably won't lose to any sheik player again.

I don't often put a lot of stock into character match ups, cause in the end it's all hard work and play style. Character selection counts but only for the amount of work you put into that character. M2K is a good example.

Back in 06-07 he had refined his character strategies vs. the player pool to the point that he was referred to as a robot. There really wasn't anything exceptionally robotic about his style, he was just really efficient. He always had trouble with KDJ but that probably had about as much to do with his confidence as it did with his character.

tl;dr: this game always comes down to player vs. player for me, and once you get beyond the fantasy/theory-oh of character match ups the sooner you can start actually playing this game on the player vs. player level.

p.s. I'm sure PP wouldn't have nearly as much success if he approached the game on strictly a character vs. character level. Marth can chain throw fox and falco but YOU, THE PLAYER, have to land that grab in the first place.


@mooose: more up tilt. focus on your lasers and try to be more precise, dark rain was playing around pretty much all of your strategy.

Practice wavedashing more. If you can't wavedash consistently, aside from the most obvious problem you lose out on a lot of speed and mobility.

all in all, you should try to play more patiently, that's something that separates a lot of the good players from the average ones. really pick/choose your set ups/positioning.

If you don't have a really solid understanding of your opponent you may fall into habits that just don't work at all.

most notably, polish your tech skill (wavedash, fast falls, moving out of l cancels, platform wavelands, etc etc), work on your movement (wavedash/dash dancing), and try to play more creatively. Your style is pretty linear (laser . .. . laser . . . . zzz)

lastly, for emphasis, more up tilt. **** is good as fell vs. falcon.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rN0ENOpLd6A&t=4m50s Except when it's like this. He's shielding and facing away from you. GRAB.

Sheik vs Falcon isn't that bad lol. Falcon's throw game is about as effective vs Sheik, and he edgeguards her just as well, plus he's a more mobile character.

Also I never play player vs player. I play 100% match up and only continue to improve. I know I'd be much better if I had the capability to study the other player atop of playing the match up correctly, but I don't really have the capacity to have generally solid play, play the match up correctly, mixups, spacing, techskill, etc AND try to adapt/react/read/and study the opponent.

watching colbol lose is more fun than watching most people win just because of his moonwalks

like, moonwalk to shine bair WHO DOES THAT

Me, and I did that ish long before I ever saw a single Colbol match. I didn't know who the kid was until LAAAATE 2009 LMAO.

I learned how to moonwalk and shinebair with Fox in 08. >.>

@Bolt: Uthrow or Bthrow. Uthrow has guaranteed followups, bthrow is silly mixups, but not guaranteed.

uthrow's follow-up depends on where they DI the initial uthrow, and after the lasers hit. You can react to their DI, but the timing window to react and still have a guaranteed follow-up is really small.

 

[Brookman]

The very notion of "correct play" is holding you back. Let go of that and I'm sure you'll be able to play vs. your opponent.

 

[MacD]

Also I never play player vs player. I play 100% match up and only continue to improve. I know I'd be much better if I had the capability to study the other player atop of playing the match up correctly, but I don't really have the capacity to have generally solid play, play the match up correctly, mixups, spacing, techskill, etc AND try to adapt/react/read/and study the opponent.

there is nothing wrong with what you are doing

when i started, i basically only learned match ups and went from there

eventually i decided i got as far as i could with that (for the most part), and decided that to get a lot better, i'd need to make my tech skill better and learn to read people. So i started with one thing about reading people and went from there.

just know eventually you are going to have to learn to do that if you wanna become a top player, but you can still get very far off of just matchups (then again, maybe just cause my style is the more reactionary in game whatever, it worked for me)

 

[Shenanigans]

Just curious pp, I lost my memory card for melee so...

I was wondering if I could record a p:m match that u may be able to critique. I know it isn't exactly the same but you may be able to spot problems or lapses in a playstyle that more than likely pans across both games.

 

[Rubyiris]

The very notion of "correct play" is holding you back. Let go of that and I'm sure you'll be able to play vs. your opponent.

You're going to have to be more specific.

 

[JPOBS]

I think what brookman is getting at is something like this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8nm1gbMhYDY

or perhaps this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YXKFTzlBziI

 

[Jake13]

jpobs, you win for that.


lets talk more about conditioning your opponent!



i like to mix in a lot of empty short hops and land dashes in between my lasers. sometimes i just drop combos so that hopefully they will survival DI and get combo'd harder next time they're in the same situation.

favorite for me: pretending I suck (like just blatant air dodges and stuff when you know the opponent can't punish for it) to lull them into a false sense of security

 

[Rubyiris]

I think what brookman is getting at is something like this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8nm1gbMhYDY

or perhaps this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YXKFTzlBziI

I still don't understand the point you're trying to make.

 

[Brookman]

there is no spoon, isn't it obvious? basically, if you believe that there is only one way to play you will be limiting yourself.

Close your eyes (for the purpose of this exercise, you should read the rest before closing your eyes.)

bring up a picture of a box. The box can be any size or shape.

Now, take everything you consider to be "correct" and place it in that box.

Then, picture another box and place everything that you consider to be "incorrect" in this one.

Which box has more **** in it?

 

[prog]

the one with my name on it

[scientology]