PPMD's Falco Discussion Thread

[Dr Peepee]

Hi, I've been reading the boards for a while but was always too timid to post since everyone else had such high post counts that my earlier opinions might be discarded or flamed. But I've been watching the most recent Pound 5 friendlies between PP and Mango in falco dittos and something's been nagging me. Is it just me, or is mango's falco continuously producing the strangest offshoots of metagame "progression" ever? He's doing very surprising things with moonwalking with varying characters (fox/falco) that I haven't seen just a mere year ago, considering that moonwalking was considered a solved technique by then. Is moonwalking with spacies worth looking into?

Mango likes doing risky things but he knows they'll work because he's Mango and reads people like that.

Moonwalking with spacies is worth looking into for edgeguarding purposes in my opinion, but I'm not sure about what else. All I know is I suck at moonwalking lol so you probably won't see me doing that. =p

When I grab a falcon at really low percent what is the best throw to use?

I Uthrow for positional advantage unless there's a throw that puts Falcon offstage. Fthrow in general could work if you'd rather follow Falcon up that way.

Just curious pp, I lost my memory card for melee so...

I was wondering if I could record a p:m match that u may be able to critique. I know it isn't exactly the same but you may be able to spot problems or lapses in a playstyle that more than likely pans across both games.

It's not even the same game lol but I guess I could look at it for you.

jpobs, you win for that.


lets talk more about conditioning your opponent!



i like to mix in a lot of empty short hops and land dashes in between my lasers. sometimes i just drop combos so that hopefully they will survival DI and get combo'd harder next time they're in the same situation.

favorite for me: pretending I suck (like just blatant air dodges and stuff when you know the opponent can't punish for it) to lull them into a false sense of security

Considering I looooove conditioning this is the kind of stuff I like to talk about.

Falco has so many tricks in his combo game as it is you could just use moves that hit them in ways they don't need to survival DI(like Uair/Dair/Fair) and then **** them with Nair/Bair/smashes later on haha. I still haven't gotten that art down at all but it's so good to do to get those early kills if people don't know what you're going for so they DI funny.

I try to pretend I suck too but then they all tell me to stop sandbagging. =(

 

[Rubyiris]

there is no spoon, isn't it obvious? basically, if you believe that there is only one way to play you will be limiting yourself.

Close your eyes (for the purpose of this exercise, you should read the rest before closing your eyes.)

bring up a picture of a box. The box can be any size or shape.

Now, take everything you consider to be "correct" and place it in that box.

Then, picture another box and place everything that you consider to be "incorrect" in this one.

Which box has more **** in it?

I'm not under any impression that there is one correct way to play and that all other options are wrong. I just merely stated that the way I play is entirely based around the characters in game rather than playing the game AND playing the player, and that this is one of my bigger shortcomings.

 

[BBQ°]

Hey PP, how can I view the game in a more 3-dimensional perspective?

Basically what I'm saying is that it feels like my style right now is 2-dimensional and very "x beats y" type thing. This question might not make any sense at all or it may seem really nooby, but I just want to see if you have an answer or maybe you had a similar problem when you first started playing.

Sleepy tells me that I need to start playing differently and trying new things, but it seems like the way I learn (inside and outside the game) is preventing me from seeing what is possible and I see things too rationally and simplified, I guess.

How can I break this plateau I'm on? I'm actually improving pretty fast, but the method I'm improving is going to come to a sudden halt once I exhaust all my options (which is like the x beats y type of thinking). Basically what I'm asking is how can I see the game differently. Maybe attend more out of state tournaments? I've only been to 1 real out of state tournament. (Winterfest in Florida back in 09)

 

[Moooose]

one thing i noticed about moose and other falcos like leffen is that they get too conservative at times. for example when you shine a shield, you can react to their roll by simply sh lasering out of your shine so that the pressure doesnt have to stop. moose i think with more confidence and more combo practice you should be able to beat darkrain.

so just a little more offense imo. darkrain is really good at both running away and getting in, but falco can lock him down first.

that's interesting. when i was playing him in friendlies before i was alot more aggressive on shield, but i found myself getting stomped oos. somehow he spaces his dairs to avoid utilt after aerials. and i mean it was spacing, not timing. I would get my utilt out after he jumped and before he daired, but it would whiff, then he would move closer and it would land while i was still in utilt lag. that's why i was less aggressive on his shield.

also as to what you were saying, I think theres a tradeoff between focusing on keeping steady, heavy pressure on the opponent, and focusing on avoiding hits. i know cactuar is a big fan of focusing on not getting hit, but i also think heavy pressure is also viable, since it limits the opponents opportunities to get in. which do you guys think works better?(with falco and against falcon) also what about against other characters like marth, sheik and spacies?

 

[Dr Peepee]

Hey PP, how can I view the game in a more 3-dimensional perspective?

Basically what I'm saying is that it feels like my style right now is 2-dimensional and very "x beats y" type thing. This question might not make any sense at all or it may seem really nooby, but I just want to see if you have an answer or maybe you had a similar problem when you first started playing.

Sleepy tells me that I need to start playing differently and trying new things, but it seems like the way I learn (inside and outside the game) is preventing me from seeing what is possible and I see things too rationally and simplified, I guess.

How can I break this plateau I'm on? I'm actually improving pretty fast, but the method I'm improving is going to come to a sudden halt once I exhaust all my options (which is like the x beats y type of thinking). Basically what I'm asking is how can I see the game differently. Maybe attend more out of state tournaments? I've only been to 1 real out of state tournament. (Winterfest in Florida back in 09)

I was actually going to write about this for my personal problem in one of my big posts, but I'll go ahead and talk about it here.

I actually learned a lot of the way I played with x beats y and if that doesn't work do this type stuff. In the meantime when I wasn't playing, I would come up with creative ideas that made up for my lack of creativity mid-game. I very rarely hit a wall because of this and because playing good people always allowed me to have more situations to explore and new playstyles to work on/change up. Mango ended up changing a lot of this for me when he told me he didn't really think about the game like that at all. He just reads people the entire match and doesn't focus on what he's doing to beat it until he sees something he think he can beat(something he saw previously most likely). So, VERY long story short with all of this is I'm trying to spend more of my matches committing to just reading and trusting my character to be tricky on its own so I can end up being trickier overall with my punishes and more thorough understanding of my opponent/people in general.

*****All of the top players play this way now(x beats y) and Mango hates it to death. He thinks eventually the game will become Brawl the way we're going. Random tidbit for the readers.

So, BBQ, for you and anyone striving to change up their play or learn differently, I would suggest you spend matches focusing not on beating a situation, but watching your opponent and really working on beating THEM. It will be hard at first, but the reason Mango can transition between characters and **** with less effort than most is because he understands things about people since he spent all of his early years learning to read people. It pays off is what I'm saying haha.

 

[Brookman]

Mango could probably play the whole match looking at his opponents face rather than the screen and still win.

 

[Rubyiris]

@PP:

The way I beat that mindset is to stop playing, and thinking about smash entirely for a few weeks, or playing a low tier. Have you done either of these, and if so, what was your experience with it?

My biggest problem with that approach is that I usually fall back into that sort of play by the end of the day. Sucks that it takes me 2~3 weeks just to play super amazing for one day.

 

[Brookman]

You need to be harder on your self. Part of your problem (i assume) is you get into the habit of trying to enjoy playing. you shouldn't enjoy the act of playing but you should enjoy making all your opponents hate your play style.

 

[Dr Peepee]

@PP:

The way I beat that mindset is to stop playing, and thinking about smash entirely for a few weeks, or playing a low tier. Have you done either of these, and if so, what was your experience with it?

My biggest problem with that approach is that I usually fall back into that sort of play by the end of the day. Sucks that it takes me 2~3 weeks just to play super amazing for one day.

Around the time of the aftermath of Pound 4 I quit playing so much because the guy at my college I was training(seven) didn't want to play much. It made me much more eager to play when I did, and I usually got more out of the sessions since it was a more infrequent one. I think I got worse overall though just from inconsistent play but I'm not sure.

I try playing low tiers a lot(like learning Young Link for a YL here in NC) but then Twitch gets mad at me and quits when I beat him with them soooooooo.......<.<

 

[Brookman]

I hate when people don't want to play vs. my low tiers. Like, really? ****.

 

[BBQ°]

I was actually going to write about this for my personal problem in one of my big posts, but I'll go ahead and talk about it here.

I actually learned a lot of the way I played with x beats y and if that doesn't work do this type stuff. In the meantime when I wasn't playing, I would come up with creative ideas that made up for my lack of creativity mid-game. I very rarely hit a wall because of this and because playing good people always allowed me to have more situations to explore and new playstyles to work on/change up. Mango ended up changing a lot of this for me when he told me he didn't really think about the game like that at all. He just reads people the entire match and doesn't focus on what he's doing to beat it until he sees something he think he can beat(something he saw previously most likely). So, VERY long story short with all of this is I'm trying to spend more of my matches committing to just reading and trusting my character to be tricky on its own so I can end up being trickier overall with my punishes and more thorough understanding of my opponent/people in general.

*****All of the top players play this way now(x beats y) and Mango hates it to death. He thinks eventually the game will become Brawl the way we're going. Random tidbit for the readers.

So, BBQ, for you and anyone striving to change up their play or learn differently, I would suggest you spend matches focusing not on beating a situation, but watching your opponent and really working on beating THEM. It will be hard at first, but the reason Mango can transition between characters and **** with less effort than most is because he understands things about people since he spent all of his early years learning to read people. It pays off is what I'm saying haha.

Wow, that makes a lot of sense.

One thing that kind of relates to this is like rationality vs intuition. Rationality is like x beats y whereas intuition is just like the opposite of that. Everybody has rationality and everybody has intuition, but most of the time, people have one more developed trait and one weaker trait. As humans, we lean more towards our developed trait (rationality or intuition) because it's easier for us and it makes sense, and it will continue to be easier and make more sense because we keep developing that one trait. However, it is possible to develop (or rather, hone) the weaker trait, but it will be awkward at first and just weird because our mind isn't used to it yet. If we have 2 developed, strong traits, then we are more well-rounded and can see things in more than one perspective, which is hugely important in smash and other abstract things. PP, sounds to me that you are a more rational player but you are now starting to hone your intuitive side.

At the most recent tournament, I had a money match with a player a little worse than me (BlueJim), and the set went to game 5. I had won the first 2 matches, Jim won the next 2, and I won the 5th game. I don't know how I did it, but I transitioned the way I thought between game 4 and 5. Game 4 I was playing more rationally, and game 5 I was playing more intuitive. You can even see the difference in the way I was playing http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MXI8k1GJce4

I still remember how I was thinking in those matches too. I was focusing less on the strategy aspect and I was just in flow with the match. It was a really weird feeling, haha.

Now I just need to learn how to always be able to do that XD

 

[FoxLisk]

you shouldn't enjoy the act of playing but you should enjoy making all your opponents hate your play style.

wise words

 

[tarheeljks]

lol i think that's the sort of mentality pp is saying makes mango hate current trends in play style

 

[Dr Peepee]

lol prettttty much

 

[Jake13]

I still haven't gotten that art down at all but it's so good to do to get those early kills if people don't know what you're going for so they DI funny.

I try to pretend I suck too but then they all tell me to stop sandbagging. =(

I love catching ppl in funny DI, or knowing they're gonna DI one way and just throwing with it regardless of kill possibilities from it. I think controlling the space the opponent is in is more important than being able to over pressure or not get hit. If the other player is right where you want them, it feels easier to keep them on their toes (like continuous bthrows or just spacing ftilts over n over near the edge, just waiting for them to come to your space) but I suppose that is another way to super pressure anyway...

More random conditioning stuff l8rz


Serious question time: how often do you focus on the other char? Like entirely

I feel its the best to watch the opponent the whole time, however it can backfire and make you *** up spacing or little movement ticks

When I'm personally playing bomb I'm able to focus on both character simultaneously without realizing it. But if I notice its happening I freak out and confuse myself lol

Id lurve errbody's personal exp on this

 

[Brookman]

What I said about play style isn't limited to playing the most boring game possible. I'm sure a lot of people hated mango's style back in 08.

 

[tarheeljks]

wasn't active at that point so i have no idea (my join date is very misleading as there's a 3 year gap in there), but while it's true that making your opponent hate your play style is not limited to a single style of play, it's easier to achieve w/certain styles than others. at some time or another, often if you are me , we've all lost to people whose style we hated and to others who we respected. feel like that is distinct from winning/losing, which is what i think you were implying right, so i misinterpreted your post. my bad

i can't tell whether i've was too literal in my interpretation of your post or whether i read b/t the lines too much

 

[Dr Peepee]

I love catching ppl in funny DI, or knowing they're gonna DI one way and just throwing with it regardless of kill possibilities from it. I think controlling the space the opponent is in is more important than being able to over pressure or not get hit. If the other player is right where you want them, it feels easier to keep them on their toes (like continuous bthrows or just spacing ftilts over n over near the edge, just waiting for them to come to your space) but I suppose that is another way to super pressure anyway...

More random conditioning stuff l8rz


Serious question time: how often do you focus on the other char? Like entirely

I feel its the best to watch the opponent the whole time, however it can backfire and make you *** up spacing or little movement ticks

When I'm personally playing bomb I'm able to focus on both character simultaneously without realizing it. But if I notice its happening I freak out and confuse myself lol

Id lurve errbody's personal exp on this

Yeah you need to have your own character close enough to be aware of them usually or too far for it to totally matter(like shooting lasers across the stage or something) in order to not have spacing errors, but generally the distance may not matter if you're trying to make an approaching or retreating or continuing action quickly which still seems to be the case these days. I'm still working out the kinks beyond that but I'll post more about it when I figure more out if this gets brought up again. =)

What I said about play style isn't limited to playing the most boring game possible. I'm sure a lot of people hated mango's style back in 08.

People will only hate your style if they either hate losing or you play gay, Playing gay by our standards is usually worse than playing gay back in the day I think. Mango was only hated because he played puff so he stopped that.

 

[Mew2King]

i want u to change ur name to dr Penis for 1 day cuz it'd be rly funny id have a laughgasm among viewing

 

[Dr Peepee]

LMFAO m2k

I don't think I could get away with that

but we'll see XD

 

[~Twitch~]

please?

 

[tarheeljks]

how about dr phallus. it's greek! no one can get mad about classical languages

 

[choknater]

moose haha i'll reply to your post since it was a reply to mine

i think watching zhu vs falcon and pp vs falcon would help, they are really good at it. it's sort of a balance, i just noticed that you should be a little more aggressive than you were. here on wc we don't really utilt for pressure hahah, we just keep doing shine aerials. if you space shine nairs or shine dairs well, it's really unlikely for you to get hit by falcon's dair oos (though it can still happen.)

if you can attack him safely, do it, and if you can force him into a mid range with his shield up, do it. falcon has the uphill battle IMO because he can't approach whenever he wants. however, his best ways of setting the pace are by approaching vertically or diagonally toward falco, like falling aerials or crossing up falco's shield. but if falcon is trying to come from these angles, it gives falco freedom to control mid stage, where you can open up many opportunities to approach falcon as well by using shl's and double jump lasers.

i noticed when you shield pressured him as he was toward the ledge, he wasn't taking your roll bait. he was always jumping out of it, so you can go back to controlling mid stage, or if you're armada status, punish that jump. instead of walking away from his shield expecting a roll, you could've stayed facing him and reacted to whatever option he chose. jump, short hop, shield grab, roll. gotta be aware of all of them.

there are many different situations in falco vs falcon, but because of lasers and overall stronger priority, falco has an advantage in most of those situations. you need mango's 1-mistake punishing power in order to win the matchup as falcon, and darkrain definitely ate his power bars.

 

[Cactuar]

@moooose: Your conception of what I focus on is flawed. I focus on hitting my opponent before they hit me, not necessarily avoiding them. My game vs falcon actually relies on me being able to consistently pressure them to get the first hit in rather than avoiding them.

The benefit of thinking like that is the ability to switch between methods of first hitting, which include avoidance until proper opportunity arises, as well as applying heavy pressure.

 

[Moooose]

definitely food for thought. thanks guys!

 

[VGmasta]

Falco is too good, especially against Falcon. I never use to be able to control Falcon the way I wanted to until I started using Falco. Lasers do so much work for me. (And my Falco's not that skilled yet)

 

[FoxLisk]

thoughts on dealing with falcon's stomp OoS:

First off: I believe people when they say that you can always beat it with utilt. However, I can't do that because I suck. So I've been doing something that works out fine for me. I just watch in what situations they stomp OoS (as opposed to grabbing/rolling/jumping). For example, I found that if you nair from in front of them and crossover to their back, some people will stomp OoS because it's the only option that can really hit you. So if they do that once or twice I just switch from crossover nair-> shine to crossover nair-> sh bair. This won't really start a combo but it cleanly and reliably overpowers their dair and sort of convinces them to cool it on the dair oos.

 

[VGmasta]

Yeah, after landing behind Falcon's shield with an aerial, you could just up-tilt (which is what I prefer for better comboing). But you could also b-air, retreat a SH laser (or just retreat).

 

[Druggedfox]

Aerial behind --> Aerial is one of the best methods to beat the opponent's aerial OoS regardless of character usually unless they have a really fast aerial (or a shine) that also hits behind well. In falcon's case... just **** him xD

 

[Deleted member]

If you shine Falcon's shield and wavedash, he gets an opportunity to stomp you as well. Avoid the situation if you believe he'll do that.

 

[Dark Hart]

I don't really waveshine for sheild pressure on certain characters, I just straight-up aerial-shine them and react.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

waveshine against zelda. seriously.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GGVzKGo0-qA#t=3m57s

 

[Brookman]

I just charge up smash vs. zelda's shield (as fox)

IT"S HILARIOUS

 

[Dr Peepee]

Aerial behind --> Aerial is one of the best methods to beat the opponent's aerial OoS regardless of character usually unless they have a really fast aerial (or a shine) that also hits behind well. In falcon's case... just **** him xD

I don't like this as a general rule for some reason. I feel this raaaaapes Falcon but all of the good characters all seem great OOS so I feel like the following Bair may be too high if it's a smaller character/they wd OOS away since they have a good shield and other moves seem too slow. Maybe I'm just paranoid?

If you shine Falcon's shield and wavedash, he gets an opportunity to stomp you as well. Avoid the situation if you believe he'll do that.

He can grab the waveshine too.

waveshine against zelda. seriously.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GGVzKGo0-qA#t=3m57s

lmao fox too good.

I'm PRETTY sure that doesn't work with Falco.

I just charge up smash vs. zelda's shield (as fox)

IT"S HILARIOUS

lmao zelda too bad

 

[MacD]

my zelda will **** you all!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Druggedfox]

Nah you're not paranoid, you don't want to get ***** by good OoS options =P

That said, I'd still say aerial-->aerial can stuff the majority of aerial Oos options characters have, its just not necessarily safe or your best option at all. As you said, if they WD OoS you're in a pretty bad position.

Random thought: you and mango were too scared to shine OoS against pressure =PP

 

[Tirno]

my zelda will **** you all!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

More like, your Zelda's shield will get u-tilted a billion times.

 

[Dr Peepee]

my zelda will **** you all!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I ***** your Zelda with my Mario LOL get outta here =p

Nah you're not paranoid, you don't want to get ***** by good OoS options =P

That said, I'd still say aerial-->aerial can stuff the majority of aerial Oos options characters have, its just not necessarily safe or your best option at all. As you said, if they WD OoS you're in a pretty bad position.

Random thought: you and mango were too scared to shine OoS against pressure =PP

I suppose lol. I'll work on that more since it is a somewhat weak part of my game when I choose to cross up(what exactly to do afterward) I think.

It's definitely not being scared LOL there's a way you can do it to where shine OOS won't work. =)


Edit@ Tirno: Zelda can Fair/Bair you OOS for uptilting her shield lol.

 

[Tirno]

Yeah, I was just teasing MacD for letting it happen to his Zelda. But since we're on it, I figure it'd be safe if Falco did it right next to Zelda, no?

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

zelda's options that can come out to beat it frame-wise are fair and usmash. usmash gets CC'd automatically cause you are holding down. Fair doesnt work, i cant remember if its the duck or if she cant move back enough to force the sweetspot, but kels has routinely waveshined on cosmo's shield and all options seemed to be covered. He did this with both fox and falco.