Pokemon Trainer (Red!) Discussion

[Brawlman]

THANK YOU DEKU!!! THAT WAS THE MOVESET I WAS LOOKING FOR!!! That post is the most well thought out post I've seen in this topic!

Deku, you're awsome! RED FOR BRAWL!!!

 

[Deku Boy]

THANK YOU DEKU!!! THAT WAS THE MOVESET I WAS LOOKING FOR!!! That post is the most well thought out post I've seen in this topic!

Deku, you're awsome! RED FOR BRAWL!!!

Thank you. I've been gradually writing and improving that post for a while. I seriously think that Red should be in Super Smash Bros Brawl as a character.

 

[Chickenboy666]

great job, Deku O_O

I'd really like to see Red in Brawl, he would be an unique character, the moveset that Deku made shows it. I'm not sure about his possibilities, but at least the AT idea, whit special Venusaur, Blastoise or Charizard sounds cool. I'd like to see him at least as an AT.

 

[DainBramaged]

Ok....Deku Boy....seriously...I don't know if you have read any posts of mine concerning Red before.....and if you did, then I suggest you re-read them....because your "counters" are all void of alot of what I have said......but still, seeing as you said yourself to bring up arguments....time to re-say alot things....

When you look at Pokémon's representation in Super Smash Bros, what do you see? Pokémon fighting. Poké balls releasing Pokémon to attack. Battling. Is that all there is to the series? Whatever happened to the collection portion of the game? You know, going around and capturing pokémon in poké balls? The capturing and collecting portion of the games are very important as well, and even contribute to the battling portion. It's important to have some sort of representation for the collecting part of the game, or the concept isn't conveyed in its entirety. A trainer, one of the people who go around and catch the pokémon, would make an excellent representative of this part of the gameplay, and could utilize their various pokémon capturing equipment in their moveset.

Yes, rather than implement the already existant fighting aspects of the pokemon games themselves into a fighting game, how about INSTEAD we implement the non fighting like features of pokemon into a fighting game

Assuming that, to some degree, you agree with the previous points, this leaves us with an important problem: Which trainer do we use? I personally think we should use Red. Red is the original protagonist of the series, and is the only recurring protagonist, giving him credentials similar to Marth. Red appears in each of the first three generations and in about half of the games in the series.

yup....first off FIVE of those games are essentially THE SAME FREAKING GAME REMADE WITH DIFFERENT FEATURES AND UPGRADES! In Gold and Silver, you could battle him after beating the game....a bonus if you will......as for other appearances......it was just his look....his look....he could essentailly battle himself....he played no role besides calling upon your pokemon to fight (hmm...not even that much different then the games he starred in as protagonist) and please do not compare him to Marth...Marth appeared as protagonist twice for 2 different games...two different stories... Red re-appeared as protagonist.....but in the same game, being sold again with a makeover

...And I'm not just supporting an impossible character here. I have reasons and evidence to show that Red's chances are greater than most people would expect, if even just a little.

You may not know this, but Sakurai actually conducted a poll for possible Super Smash Bros Melee characters. He asked Japanese fans to submit their most wanted characters, and the characters were ranked according to the votes they recieved. Coming in at twelfth place was "Satoshi(the protagonist)" from the Pokémon series. Not only did Red score such a high position on this poll, but he was voted in higher characters like Meta-Knight, who's confirmed, and Diddy, who is considered a shoo-in. It's interesting to note that nearly all of the characters above Red on the poll appeared in Super Smash Bros in some form, and nearly none of those below him did.

consider this...despite his high placing on the fanboy list... IF Red is implemented as a playable character for Brawl (which he will not) there will be the Red fans rejoicing "oooh yay Red is in Brawl" but there will be EVER SO MUCH MORE RESPONCES that go along the lines of "THIS IS STUPID" & " W......T.....F..!?!"

Argument: The game is called "Pokémon", not "Trainers".

Counter: Having the game named after them does not automatically get any pokémon in over Red. That's like putting a Metroid in over Samus, or putting a Pikmin in before Captain Olimar. The name of a game does not necessarily determine the significance of the characters. Trainers are important to the Pokémon series even if the series isn't named for them.

That is a poor argument where you merely manipulated the game's titles, after a stereotype argument....

IT IS NOT SOLEY THE NAME of the game that discludes Red.....But let's consider the "role of the characters" of those games.

In the metroid series, the game, the story, it revolves around Samus Aran. Samus is the main character, you control here, and save planets, shoot aliens, upgrade her etc. The games plot & gameplay is all Samus, how she will overcome obstacles, you control her etc etc

Pikmin. The plot, Cpt Olimar has to get home. You directly control Captain Olimar. He is the main character. The Gameplay revolves around you useing him and Pikmin to beat enemies and solve puzzles. Now I know what your thinking. "Olimar is like Red. Olimar controls Pikmin, while Red controls Pokemon. So why disinclude Red, and not Olimar" This is because the GAMEPLAY is different. In Pikmin, the main Gameplay is centered on Olimar and the Pikmin, while in the Pokemon adventure games, the main gameplay is centered on Pokemon........not red

My point, Trainers are a part of the Pokemon series, a "fraction" if you will. Just because you can find and cite cases of games that title's "don't include the main character's name" (which is excruciatingly common) does not mean that Red ( who plays a b part to the game) has any better chance of being in.

Argument: Red would have no moves.

Counter: Red could very easily have moves. Red has two large pools of moves from which to draw: pokémon that he could use, and items that he could use. All of his items could be given a SSB function, and Red could also use various pokémon for attacks for some moves. For a more in depth explanation, take a look at the 'Moveset' section.

alrighty....the moves....First off, they are not all 100% his moves. He requires pokemon to use many of his moves (which would be better off implemented into a pokeball pokemon, or a playable character pokemon).

Also worth noting, to summon pokemon just to use certain moves would seem a little unessisary. Like how peach nabbs toad out of her dress to defend her for her B attack, that's just one attack.....what if she brought out a toad for more than one attack? just to do different things. Having a moveset based on pulling out multiple pokemon would just be streching it too much.

As for Red's other moves....Throwing rocks......throwing mud.....pokeballs.....punching and kicking...this is just sad... Now, lemme use link as an example. Arrows, Bomb, Sword....all these Items are things he uses throughout the entire game....As for Red's mud, pokeballs etc etc.......well.....there only used for the times you travel to the Safari Zone.....nothing the game essentially focuses on

Red punching and kicking.... This is VERY out of character for a pokemon trainer....and just wouldn't make sence.....now I know what your thinking " But other charcters never had movesets before they were introduced to Smash" This is true.....but that's because there is good reasoning for it. F-Zero is a great game/series which deserved to be included into smash. However, there were no fighting aspects to F-Zero at the time. SO a moveset was Improvised, and created for Cptn Falcon......as In red's case... the Pokemon series ALREADY has a fighting element in it....(the pokemon) so WHY create an uneeded moveset for a minor character, when their is already countless possibilities for the actual pokemon ( who deserve to be included more than the trainers in the first place)

Argument: Red isn't a character. He's an avatar of the player, a vessel.

Counter: If Red isn't really a character, then who is that trainer I'm battling at the end of Pokémon Gold? Who's that trainer who shows up at the end of Pokémon Stadium 2? Who is this person named Red that Nintendo made a figure of for the Nintendo trading figure game? Who is that guy at the beginning of the Pokémon Battle Revolution trailer? As of late there has been far too much evidence of Nintendo treating Red as a character for him to be any sort of vessel. Sure, he doesn't exactly have a vibrant and noticable personality, but it's a very common trait of Nintendo RPG protagonists to have rather vague personalities and backstories to help the player get into the game.

"If Red isn't really a character, then who is that trainer I'm battling at the end of Pokémon Gold?" well, he is a trainer......and you are battling his POKEMON with your POKEMON.....in other games, he is a "look" a "costume".... and in the other games, well you said it yourself. Ive said it many times before. a "vessle" just a way for you to connect to the pokemon...

as for "Sure, he doesn't exactly have a vibrant and noticable personality, but it's a very common trait of Nintendo RPG protagonists to have rather vague personalities and backstories to help the player get into the game."

................... ............... ............
that has got to be THE STUPIDEST THING I HAVE EVER...EVER heard...you couldn't possible be further from the truth.

"RPG's vauge on story" WTF!!?!?!?!? RPG's ARE ALL ABOUT STORY! They are the games n which CHARACTERS GET THEE MOST BACKROUND STORY POSSIBLE! Fire emblem, final fantasy, paper mario,....."ROLE PLAY GAMES"........they are essentially stories, which you play out... And this is an example of how crappy Red really is. Because despite him being in an RPG, he has no backround...The story "become pokemon champion & foil team rocket".....but Red has NO character development further than his age and clothing....heck, JUST READ HIS NAME! " RED" pretty creative huh, hey look, it's the name that describes the colour of the cartridge........cool....you lost alot of credability there....

"common trait of Nintendo RPG protagonists to have rather vague personalities and backstories to help the player get into the game"........I still cannot believ you wrote that....

Argument: Red could have been replaced with any other trainer and the game would have worked the same way.

Counter: Funny thing is, this is actually pointless argument to make. If another trainer had been substituted for Red, then they would be Red, they'd be the original protagonist, and they'd be the one we're debating in SSB. This is the equivilent of saying that Marth could have been replaced with any swordsman, or that Ness could have been replaced with any kid. You're trying to argue using a hypothetical situation as evidence, which isn't really something you should do if you can avoid it.

this one is barley worth time......but I share your opinion....out of all pokemon trainers, Red is most recognisable (well, besides Ash.....but Smash will not include anime)....that's why his look is still used for newer games........to bad trainers are still a bad choice for playable charcter

Argument: Red just doesn't fight in general. He hides behind his pokémon.

Counter: Pokémon may do the fighting in the Pokémon games, but Red has actual merits to be in Super Smash Bros. Pokémon, for the most part, don't, and actual importance should take precedence over fighting experience. Red is a recurring protagonist and boss character, not to mention the first protagonist. He appears in quite a few other media as well, appearing in the Pokémon Trading Figure Game and having the main characters of five mangas directly based on him.

lemme set this straight (again). Despite Red beign the "protagonist" He is not the central point of the game. The POKEMON are mare important characters than he is, every single
400+ of them (that's right magikarp, you have better brawl chances than Red). The main Characters of Pokemon, are the pokemon. Red is their transportation method...... The fact the Red does not fight, and his Pokemon battle for him is merely the icing of the cake.

Well, I'm not sure if you've ever played a pokémon game, but, in most of the games in the series, there's a place called the "Safari Zone". In the Safari Zone, trainers are forbidden to bring their pokémon, and Red, in this park, fights pokémon all on his own. Red fought using rocks, bait, and Safari Balls in the Safari Zone, meaning that Red has actually done more actual in-game fighting than have several characters in Super Smash Bros Melee.
.

Red has actually done more actual in-game fighting than have several characters in Super Smash Bros Melee."

I mentioned this above....the other characters that did not have fighting elements in thier games, were given a constructive and creative moveset so that they may become fighters.......POKEMON ALREADY HAS THE "FIGHTING ELEMENT" hence the "pokemon battles".....so instead of creating an uneeded moveset for Red (that will include pokemon fighting for him anyways) let's keep the actuall POKEMON as the playable characters.

Argument: Pokémon should be represented by Pokémon. Trainers have never been in SSB before. They just wouldn't work.

Counter: Trainers have never been in before, but that doesn't mean they shouldn't. Trainers are important to the Pokémon series, even if not as important as Pokémon themselves. Trainers are the driving force behind the story of the game, they're the villains and heroes and allies. Trainers are essential to the very concept of the game: collecting and training monsters to battle. Anyone can work in Super Smash Bros, and trainers certainly aren't the most difficult to work in.
.

The fact that they've never been in Smash before should not prevent thier inclusion in Brawl......but I'll tell you what will... Oh wait, I already have....not only in this post, but in many previous posts before that. Pokemon are more recognisable, origional, wanted, realistic fighters for brawl..... Trainers are not the most difficult to work in, but they sure as hell are pretty unessisary. Pokemon SHOULD BE REPP'D BY POKEMON....it's just common sence...

Argument: Red isn't popular.

Counter: I'd like to quote Sakurai as he said, "Adding only popular characters doesn't get me excited." Sakurai wants to add lesser known and less popular characters in Super Smash Bros Brawl, and Red, being a not-so-popular character who has a lot of significance to balance it out, would make a fine candidate.
.

When Sakurai said he wanted to add in lesser known characters, he was referring to those of other series ( kind of how fire emblem and ice climber became a part of melee) Pokemon already has WAY MORE THAN ENOUGH REPRESENTATION! there were like.....at LEAST 30 pokeball pokemon, and then 4 playable characters (only the Mario series had more than 4)

If there are any more pokemon playable characters, they WILL be pokemon ( IMO Meowth, Lucario & Deoxys brawl chance > than Red by infinite)

Although Red is not particularly well-known or popular, he is, in fact, a recurring character throughout most of the pokemon series. Red appears in 9 of the currently released 18 games in the main series, which is half of the series, and more than any other character, save for Professor Oak. Red is also a protagonist in the series which makes his recurrence even more unique. No other protagonist has ever appeared outside of their debut games. Not only this, but Red is frequently featured in other media as well. Red, or a character that is directly based on him, is the main character of two sagas of "Pokemon Special", a popular Pokemon manga in Japan. All of the main characters of the other manga series are also based on Red, as is the main character of the anime, Ash. Red is also going to be making an appearance in the upcoming Pokemon Trading Figure Game as a common trainer figure. The following is a list of Red's appearances and their significance:
.

as I've already made clear in your above arguments, these over glorified "reappearances" consist of

-Protagonist in the same game (5 versions)
- Bonus Boss for beating Gold/silver...he's the trainer, not the pokemon
- A costume


My final words.... your post.... if it were soley the moveset you posted, I would have been completely fine with it ......but as for you arguments on why Red should be a PLAYABLE CHARACTER.......It just drove me off the edge....

Red should NOT BE A PLAYABLE CHARACTER!......

PS: also wanted to note...... If deoxys........FREAKING DEOXYS did not make it as a playable character.......and people think Red has a chance........hopefully this is self explanitory.

 

[Midna]

@dainBramaged:

agreed. hail.

 

[alpha n00b]

Deku boy you just owned this thread. Nice
The last video was pure brilliant!

 

[PSIguy89]

IMO Red should be in one way or another, i mean just look at G&W and Pichu
(hes more deserving than pichu atleast)

 

[silver777]

@dainBramaged:

dude...YOU ARE MY HERO.

your sig owns too.

 

[Brawlman]

...After Deku's post...A few more Red supporters appeared...COME ON SUPPORTERS!!! REVEAL YOURSELVES AND SHOW THE HATERS WHO'S RIGHT AND WHO'S WRONG!!!...*Gets hit in the head with a brick*

But serously, Dain Bramaged, Red is MUCH more likely than you think. Just because you don't like him, doesn't mean that he shoulden't be in.

 

[DainBramaged]

@dainBramaged:

dude...YOU ARE MY HERO.

your sig owns too.

@dainBramaged:

agreed. hail.

it's people like you that actually make it worth while for posting in this thread

*takes a bow*

IMO Red should be in one way or another, i mean just look at G&W and Pichu
(hes more deserving than pichu atleast)

The really, REALLY sad thing is, he is not

...After Deku's post...A few more Red supporters appeared...COME ON SUPPORTERS!!! REVEAL YOURSELVES AND SHOW THE HATERS WHO'S RIGHT AND WHO'S WRONG!!!...*Gets hit in the head with a brick*

But serously, Dain Bramaged, Red is MUCH more likely than you think. Just because you don't like him, doesn't mean that he shoulden't be in.

Red?!?! has " chance"??? at becoming PC?!? HAHAHAH.......HA

"But seriously" I think If you actually READ my posts, it's MORE THAN OBVIOUS that my reasons against Red being in Brawl are FAR MORE than me "just not liking him" FAAAR MORE!

 

[OmegaXXII]

what is it with Red anyway? he is just a trainer with no real moveset who tosses pokeballs, can't get why everybody wants him? don't get me wrong I liked his game from Red, Blue and Yellow

 

[Ash Hol]

what is it with Red anyway? he is just a trainer with no real moveset who tosses pokeballs, can't get why everybody wants him? don't get me wrong I liked his game from Red, Blue and Yellow

i totally agree, and you cant really make him a AT because hed just throw a pokeball.

 

[Brawlman]

what is it with Red anyway? he is just a trainer with no real moveset who tosses pokeballs, can't get why everybody wants him? don't get me wrong I liked his game from Red, Blue and Yellow

No moveset, eh? Did you even LOOK at Deku Boy's moveset on the last page? If that's not a good moveset, than I dunno what is.

 

[the grim lizard]

Red is on this page, this is all he has going for him: http://nindb.classicgaming.gamespy.com/stars/

So, while I don't think he'll be in, I don't think it's right equating Waluigi with him. Pokemon would be far more interesting to control than a trainer; so yeah.

And, DainBramaged, I love your sig, too...I hate those characters, too.

 

[Fawriel]

I agree with grim pretty much.

There are several arguments I can bring up against Red, but in the end it's not quite right to say that he's absolutely unimportant. In a way, he's a bit like Marth, actually. "Lord" of the first game.
Well... "a bit". =P
Red never had a very active role himself, has no backstory and is meant to be faceless. On the other hand, that just makes him a more abstract silent protagonist.

In the end, I don't want him in and he shouldn't be in as a PC, but he's pretty much one of the most iconic representatives of the series after Pikachu, is what I'm saying.

 

[Vagrant Lustoid]

Red's definitely fairly iconic as far as Pokemon trainers go. Only Ash beats him out really, and Ash isn't a real trainer anyway

In any case, it's definitely an original idea and I think I'd probably prefer it to more pokemon. The moveset Deku posted looks pretty comprehensive and sensible, and proves that Red could work. In the end, I would support him for SSBB, but not over some other characters who are quite simply more well known, or from games that need more Smash representation.

 

[Deku Boy]

Sorry for the delay.

Ok....Deku Boy....seriously...I don't know if you have read any posts of mine concerning Red before.....and if you did, then I suggest you re-read them....because your "counters" are all void of alot of what I have said......but still, seeing as you said yourself to bring up arguments....time to re-say alot things....

Okay. I hope you don’t mind it took me so long to respond. First I got caught up playing Punch-Out!! And then I accidentally deleted my whole response. This is my second time typing this. I hope you don’t mind that I’ve used italics rather than quotes. It’s a habit I picked up posting on another board.

Yes, rather than implement the already existant fighting aspects of the pokemon games themselves into a fighting game, how about INSTEAD we implement the non fighting like features of pokemon into a fighting game

No, rather than implementing the predictable and already used aspects of the series into a Nintendo All-Star game, I suggest that we use a fresh, untapped, and unique aspect of the series, despite the unfamiliarity of a fighting environment.

yup....first off FIVE of those games are essentially THE SAME FREAKING GAME REMADE WITH DIFFERENT FEATURES AND UPGRADES!

What would you have preferred I say? “Red was in Red, Gold and the remake”? It was more proper to list each version individually. I never tried to claim there were anymore than there are. Even if you go by unique entries in the series, Red has still appeared in about half the games.

In Gold and Silver, you could battle him after beating the game....a bonus if you will......

No, Red was the actual final boss. The credits rolled after you beat him and all that jazz. He was a requirement if you wanted to say you beat the game; you were led to him by elements of the story, unlike “bonus” fights such as Mewtwo. Red was the Final Boss of the game.

as for other appearances......it was just his look....his look....he could essentailly battle himself....he played no role besides calling upon your pokemon to fight (hmm...not even that much different then the games he starred in as protagonist) and please do not compare him to Marth...Marth appeared as protagonist twice for 2 different games...two different stories... Red re-appeared as protagonist.....but in the same game, being sold again with a makeover

I say Marth and Red are very similar. For starters, Marth and Red are both the original protagonists of their series. Secondly, Marth and Red are both among the few(or in Red’s case, the only) protagonists in their respective series that show up multiple times in the series with important roles. Marth makes two protagonist appearances, and Red makes one protagonist appearance and two boss appearances.

consider this...despite his high placing on the fanboy list...

It was an official poll conducted by Sakurai himself. It was his primary material on which he based his decisions of what people wanted to see in Super Smash Bros Melee. The cut off point in the top twenty where he stopped getting ideas was right above Red. You know how Mr. Saturn is an item in Melee? He got in because of his high placement on this poll; he was around number eight if I recall correctly. That’s how closely he followed the results.

IF Red is implemented as a playable character for Brawl (which he will not) there will be the Red fans rejoicing "oooh yay Red is in Brawl" but there will be EVER SO MUCH MORE RESPONCES that go along the lines of "THIS IS STUPID" & " W......T.....F..!?!"

I highly doubt that there were any Ice Climbers fans shouting from the roof tops, or Game & Watch players cheering upon Melee’s release, but everyone liked Melee’s roster. I think there will be more people saying, “you know, this is a really great character roster”, than there will be saying “Waaahhh!! This one unexpected character ruined Super Smash Bros!!!!”

That is a poor argument where you merely manipulated the game's titles, after a stereotype argument....

I wish it was stereotypical. However, I’ve encountered this argument at every single site I’ve ever supported Red at. I had to include it.

IT IS NOT SOLEY THE NAME of the game that discludes Red.....But let's consider the "role of the characters" of those games.

You claim it’s stereotypical… and yet, you’re going to support it.
…Um…

In the metroid series, the game, the story, it revolves around Samus Aran. Samus is the main character, you control here, and save planets, shoot aliens, upgrade her etc. The games plot & gameplay is all Samus, how she will overcome obstacles, you control her etc etc

And I suppose you expect me to believe that the story in Pokémon revolves around your pokémon team, right? Get real. Your pokémon team has less of an effect on the game’s story than the optional name that you choose at the beginning of the game. You shouldn’t try to bring up story when debating against trainers, because trainers and other human characters have almost total domination of the story. Red is a character in the story. His Pokémon are not.

Pikmin. The plot, Cpt Olimar has to get home. You directly control Captain Olimar. He is the main character. The Gameplay revolves around you useing him and Pikmin to beat enemies and solve puzzles. Now I know what your thinking. "Olimar is like Red. Olimar controls Pikmin, while Red controls Pokemon. So why disinclude Red, and not Olimar" This is because the GAMEPLAY is different. In Pikmin, the main Gameplay is centered on Olimar and the Pikmin, while in the Pokemon adventure games, the main gameplay is centered on Pokemon........not red

I really can’t believe people can delude themselves like this. Dude, Olimar and Red both primarily do battle by sending other creatures to attack for them If you consider Pokémon the center of Pokémon gameplay, then it would show unbelievable bias for you to try and claim that Pikmin themselves are not central to Pikmin gameplay. Olimar and Red are in similar situations, and I don’t think either of them should be excluded from Super Smash Bros because of it.

My point, Trainers are a part of the Pokemon series, a "fraction" if you will. Just because you can find and cite cases of games that title's "don't include the main character's name" (which is excruciatingly common) does not mean that Red ( who plays a b part to the game) has any better chance of being in.

You know, Pokémon are also but a “fraction” of the game, my friend. Pokémon may be a large part, but they are only one part. There are many large parts of Pokémon and trainers are another huge part of the game. Not as huge, but trainers are a big part as well. It’s all of these “fractions” coming together is what makes the game, and I think that we could definitely take a character from another big part of the game, like trainers, as a representative in Super Smash Bros.

alrighty....the moves....First off, they are not all 100% his moves. He requires pokemon to use many of his moves (which would be better off implemented into a pokeball pokemon, or a playable character pokemon).

The thing is, Red uses Pokémon in far more unique ways that a poké ball would allow, or that a pokémon as a character could do alone. The pokémon moves Red would have wouldn’t just be pokémon using attacks, they would be interactions between the player and the pokémon they release. Take a look at Fly, the recovery move, from my moveset. That type of move would be impossible to put in a poke ball because of the fine level of interaction that’s required between the character and the pokémon; it’s something only a trainer could do.

Also worth noting, to summon pokemon just to use certain moves would seem a little unessisary. Like how peach nabbs toad out of her dress to defend her for her B attack, that's just one attack.....what if she brought out a toad for more than one attack? just to do different things. Having a moveset based on pulling out multiple pokemon would just be streching it too much.

I didn’t base my example moveset all around Pokémon if you recall. Items. I’ve stressed items. ITEMS. I only say this so loudly because in your next few responses you blatantly ignore them.

As for Red's other moves....Throwing rocks......throwing mud.....pokeballs.....punching and kicking...this is just sad...

Yes it is. However, I only said a few of those things, and I had a ton of other more viable move possibilities. You’re the person who came up with this sad set of examples. I would have listed: Repel, Poké balls, bike, Super Rod, traps, running shoes, escape rope, Poké doll, etc. as options for moves without pokémon. Punching and kicking aren’t bad. Every character in the game that doesn’t primarily use a weapon uses punches and kicks or other such hits as their basic A attacks. Red would not be an exception.

Now, lemme use link as an example. Arrows, Bomb, Sword....all these Items are things he uses throughout the entire game....As for Red's mud, pokeballs etc etc.......well.....there only used for the times you travel to the Safari Zone.....nothing the game essentially focuses on

Once again… ITEMS. My friend, you are the one who seems to not be reading what I’m posting. I stressed items over anything else. Items were, in fact, the only thing I talked about in the paragraph you responded to, aside from one short sentence about pokémon as a possibility. You failed to mention them at all. Please pay more attention to what I’m actually talking about next time. Red uses his items throughout the entirety of the game. They would make excellent moves in Super Smash Bros.

Red punching and kicking.... This is VERY out of character for a pokemon trainer....and just wouldn't make sence.....now I know what your thinking " But other charcters never had movesets before they were introduced to Smash" This is true.....but that's because there is good reasoning for it. F-Zero is a great game/series which deserved to be included into smash. However, there were no fighting aspects to F-Zero at the time. SO a moveset was Improvised, and created for Cptn Falcon......as In red's case... the Pokemon series ALREADY has a fighting element in it....(the pokemon) so WHY create an uneeded moveset for a minor character, when their is already countless possibilities for the actual pokemon ( who deserve to be included more than the trainers in the first place)

Actually, I rarely try and bring up that point, because I don’t think I need to use other characters as an excuse for Red to fight. Every character in the game that doesn’t specialize in a weapon uses punches, kicks and other direct hits as their standard A attacks. Why should Red be any exception? You’re just trying to come up with excuses at this point.

"If Red isn't really a character, then who is that trainer I'm battling at the end of Pokémon Gold?" well, he is a trainer......and you are battling his POKEMON with your POKEMON.....in other games, he is a "look" a "costume".... and in the other games, well you said it yourself. Ive said it many times before. a "vessle" just a way for you to connect to the pokemon...

Red is as much of a vessel as Ness is… actually, less so, because Red actually appears as a distinct character later in the series. He’s a silent protagonist, as I’ll elaborate on later. He was made the way he was to facilitate the player’s integration into the game.

as for "Sure, he doesn't exactly have a vibrant and noticable personality, but it's a very common trait of Nintendo RPG protagonists to have rather vague personalities and backstories to help the player get into the game."

................... ............... ............
that has got to be THE STUPIDEST THING I HAVE EVER...EVER heard...you couldn't possible be further from the truth.

You know, the funny thing is, you now look very stupid having said this, considering that what I said was true. Have you played any other Nintendo RPGs? Mother? Golden Sun? Any of the Mario RPGs? All of them have silent main characters, and aside from Golden Sun, the characters really have no backstory whatsoever. Silent Protagonists are a widely known character archetype in video games. I’ll link you to the wikipedia page. Do some reading:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silent_protagonist

From the article:

However, in the early 90's, the silent protagonist became a bit of a trend in the RPG genre, and many of the most successful games of that era featured non-speaking heroes as their lead. While most games have abandoned the idea of the silent protagonist for added realism, several series such as Half-Life , Pokémon, The Legend of Zelda and Dragon Quest have continued the tradition. The common counterpoint to the added "realism" of a speaking protagonist is that a non-speaking hero would allow the player to provide their own "voice" for the character, and thus a deeper immersion in the plot. These characters often have very undeveloped personalities and backstories for the same reason.

"RPG's vauge on story" WTF!!?!?!?!? RPG's ARE ALL ABOUT STORY! They are the games n which CHARACTERS GET THEE MOST BACKROUND STORY POSSIBLE! Fire emblem, final fantasy, paper mario,....."ROLE PLAY GAMES"........they are essentially stories, which you play out... And this is an example of how crappy Red really is. Because despite him being in an RPG, he has no backround...The story "become pokemon champion & foil team rocket".....but Red has NO character development further than his age and clothing....heck, JUST READ HIS NAME! " RED" pretty creative huh, hey look, it's the name that describes the colour of the cartridge........cool....you lost alot of credability there....

Funny thing is… I didn’t say that. -_-; It seems you’re the one who’s losing credibility, stuffing words into your opponents mouth. I said that Red had a vague backstory, meaning that there aren’t a whole lot of details about him from before the game took place. Also, I don’t know what you consider character development (because the things you listed aren’t character development)… but Red does go through conflicts throughout the story and overcomes them (Team Rocket, Blue, the Pokemon League) and becomes recognized as a better trainer as he defeats Gym Leaders and collects badges.

this one is barley worth time......but I share your opinion....out of all pokemon trainers, Red is most recognisable (well, besides Ash.....but Smash will not include anime)....that's why his look is still used for newer games........to bad trainers are still a bad choice for playable charcter

Well, we’re already debating that elsewhere, however, I will keep this in mind that you just admitted that Red is the best trainer for the job if a trainer got in. At least we can agree on something.

lemme set this straight (again). Despite Red beign the "protagonist" He is not the central point of the game. The POKEMON are mare important characters than he is, every single
400+ of them (that's right magikarp, you have better brawl chances than Red). The main Characters of Pokemon, are the pokemon. Red is their transportation method...... The fact the Red does not fight, and his Pokemon battle for him is merely the icing of the cake.

Pokemon aren’t characters. They’re important, but no pokemon in the games has ever been a character. They’re just Pokemon. It’s Red that’s a character in the story. Red is the one that other characters interact with. It’s funny that you mention Red as a transportation method, because Red uses Pokemon as his transportation on several occasions in the games. In addition, you make it sound like the Pokemon have any sentience of their own. Red is the one who is being driven by the story to collect more pokemon and become a better trainer. His pokemon are going along with what he’s doing, not the other way around.

.

Red has actually done more actual in-game fighting than have several characters in Super Smash Bros Melee."

I mentioned this above....the other characters that did not have fighting elements in thier games, were given a constructive and creative moveset so that they may become fighters.......POKEMON ALREADY HAS THE "FIGHTING ELEMENT" hence the "pokemon battles".....so instead of creating an uneeded moveset for Red (that will include pokemon fighting for him anyways) let's keep the actuall POKEMON as the playable characters.

Funny that you make the assumption that Pokemon will fight for Red… when I already posted an entire moveset that only used Pokemon twice, neither time were the pokemon doing the fighting for him, but rather helping Red himself. You act like the “fighting element”, as you call it, is the only thing Sakurai is going to consider. Smash Bros isn’t a series for Nintendo’s best fighters, it’s a series for important Nintendo characters. Red is an important Nintendo character, and is very workable with a moveset.

The fact that they've never been in Smash before should not prevent thier inclusion in Brawl......but I'll tell you what will... Oh wait, I already have....not only in this post, but in many previous posts before that. Pokemon are more recognisable, origional, wanted, realistic fighters for brawl..... Trainers are not the most difficult to work in, but they sure as hell are pretty unessisary. Pokemon SHOULD BE REPP'D BY POKEMON....it's just common sence...

Trainers can be considered as unnecessary as another Pokémon representative in general. Nothing is actually required in Super Smash Bros, but there are things people come to expect. I expect Sakurai to bring fresh ideas to SSB, like he did with the Ice Climbers, or even Game and Watch(In case you hadn’t noticed, I really like these guys). I expect Sakurai to put in characters that really hold importance to their series. Red is a fresh important character, who’s not only becoming more recognizable, but would be an original idea for Pokémon representation.

When Sakurai said he wanted to add in lesser known characters, he was referring to those of other series ( kind of how fire emblem and ice climber became a part of melee)

Actually, he added Fire Emblem characters(specifically, Marth) because they were so highly requested on that poll I mentioned earlier.

Pokemon already has WAY MORE THAN ENOUGH REPRESENTATION! there were like.....at LEAST 30 pokeball pokemon, and then 4 playable characters (only the Mario series had more than 4)

You seem to encourage having more Pokemon characters in every response except this one. It seems that you are making exceptions in your logic simply to keep Red’s chances as bad as possible.

If there are any more pokemon playable characters, they WILL be pokemon ( IMO Meowth, Lucario & Deoxys brawl chance > than Red by infinite)

You can’t know that… unless you have a time machine. Also, you can’t be debating with your own opinion so much. You need to use facts, and not just make baseless claims.

You lost a lot of credibility here… just joking. ^_^ But seriously, try to use facts, okay?

as I've already made clear in your above arguments, these over glorified "reappearances" consist of

-Protagonist in the same game (5 versions)
- Bonus Boss for beating Gold/silver...he's the trainer, not the pokemon
- A costume

You really don’t understand do you? Let me explain for you. No one in the entire series who was a protagonist has ever reappeared again. Ever. Except for Red. And Red doesn’t just show up now and again. He has never stopped showing up. He has appeared in at least one game in each of the first three generations, and it’s probable that he’ll appear in the fourth. Red is used as a promo character for games he doesn’t even appear in, as he was used to show off the new Pokémon Battle Revolution gameplay in the first trailer that they released. Red isn’t even confined to the games. He appears in manga, and is making appearances out of game, but true to form, as a collectable figure in the Pokémon Trading Figure Game, moving into his counterpart, Ash’s territory.

Red might not be considered an icon to most, but someone at Game Freak sure likes him, because he’s the one Pokémon protagonist who still appears in the series after all this time.

You also neglect to mention that his protagonist appearance was an appearance as the original protagonist in the first game in the series.

My final words.... your post.... if it were soley the moveset you posted, I would have been completely fine with it ......but as for you arguments on why Red should be a PLAYABLE CHARACTER.......It just drove me off the edge....

Posting a moveset would imply that I thought Red should be in as a playable character. Either you can’t put two and two together or you’re lying. You would have gone off on me either way for supporting Red.

Red should NOT BE A PLAYABLE CHARACTER!......

I think he should be… oh no! Stalemate!

PS: also wanted to note...... If deoxys........FREAKING DEOXYS did not make it as a playable character.......and people think Red has a chance........hopefully this is self explanitory.

Actually, to be honest, the fact that Deoxys, FREAKIN’ IDEOXYS did not make it as a playable character makes me, if anything, more confident in Red’s chances, as it shows that Sakurai and Co. might be going in a new direction with Pokémon representation. It’s a lot of speculation on my part, which is why I didn’t include it in my initial post, but you just posted your opinion, so I thought I’d post mine.



My overall response to your post: This guy needs to calm down.

EDIT: Redid quotes for your convenience.

 

[Pokebrawl]

As cool as a trainer sounds, he won't be in brawl. Can some one say "hell no?"

 

[AAbatterie]

I support Red wholeheartedly, but I know he has a very slim chance of being playable. Hopefully he'll be an AT though.

 

[ClarkJables]

i could see him as an AT. he would throw 8 pokeballs over the arena, and whoever gets hit by one is captured and has to try to escape. the longer you are in the pokeball the more damage you take and you can be picked up and thrown while in pokeballs

 

[OmegaXXII]

Red is on this page, this is all he has going for him: http://nindb.classicgaming.gamespy.com/stars/

So, while I don't think he'll be in, I don't think it's right equating Waluigi with him. Pokemon would be far more interesting to control than a trainer; so yeah.

well.. I guess his moveset is alright and could work out, but I still doubt he has a chance to appear which for me is unlikely to appear, i believe the only way he might appear is through an assist trophie which wouldn't be bad I guess especially with some of those movesets that were pointed out

 

[AAbatterie]

i could see him as an AT. he would throw 8 pokeballs over the arena, and whoever gets hit by one is captured and has to try to escape. the longer you are in the pokeball the more damage you take and you can be picked up and thrown while in pokeballs

Oh wow that's not how I orignally imagined it. Another guy said he could throw 3 pokeballs, which would be Charizard, Blastoise, and Venusaur, and each would do their attack one at a time. Yours is cooler though since it doesn't involve actual pokemon.

 

[xyouxarexuglyx2]

Heres a moveset for ya. I'm thinking he can be very Peach-esque:

-Down+B: Pull out a Pokeball, most are empty, and if you're lucky, it summons pokemon or he pulls out a super rod or it does a lot of damage (master ball, anyone?). Masterball would be like Stitchface, Super rod like beam sword, etc.

-Up + B: Escape rope towards the ledge or use Pidgeot/Pidgeoto

-Forward + B: Bicycle

-B: Call out Charizard to use Flamethrower

-A: Jab

-Fsmash: Roundhouse kick

-Dsmash: Splitkick

-USmash: Uppercut

ORRRR

even cooler.. he can have an IC ish style. Like, it can be him, and pidgeoto is always right next to him (for aerials and up+b) and another Pokemon (that can be changeable :D)

 

[smashplayer16]

He could trap opponents in pokeballs and deal damage to them like yoshis egg move.

 

[bksands77]

omg deku boy that is the absolute longest post i've ever laid my eyes on

im sorry but there is no way im going to read that

 

[chansen]

As cool as a trainer sounds, he won't be in brawl. Can some one say "hell no?"

"HELL NO!!!" *rips shirt off and throws it to pokebrawl*

 

[iankobe]

I've always thought of this idea. MARVELOUS POST!

LMAO. Why don't they put Team rockets/team aqua or magma/ team galactic too HMM?!

 

[Pokebrawl]

"HELL NO!!!" *rips shirt off and throws it to pokebrawl*

Thank you!!

 

[Yukiwarashi]

Deku, I have to say that's the most amazing moveset for Red by far. I just hope Sakurai is as creative as you are!

I'm surprised to see this thread is still alive, but it's nice to know I'm not alone in this. =)

 

[Toilet Paper]

I think red would be cool.

There are resonable movesets as well, so this guy has a chance.

 

[Pokebrawl]

I would most definately NOT say a "good" chance.

 

[DainBramaged]

gah, I've still gota reply to that Deku scrub.....

but that thing is just too f'n immpossible to read for me

I swear .....I write in my ORIGIONAL anti-red arguement here I'm dyslexic....and then I'm put up against an un-readable massive 100ft wall of non quoting, word manipulations & ittalics >_<........

use the quote system.....it's here for a reason people.....and it REALLY helps out in cases like this (espeacially for me).......rest assured, I will reply to deku when time opens itself up .

but just for now

As cool as a trainer sounds, he won't be in brawl. Can some one say "hell no?"

HELL NO!

 

[Bassoonist]

The movesets are kind of boring IMO.

I don't really care for the using items to fight idea, but I do have to say the moveset in here is better then some of them I've seen.

I'll admit using the Pokeballs themselves as an attack is a pretty good idea.

 

[silver777]

Gotta be F*n kidding me







..........LIKE WHAT THE **** MAN?!

 

[Darkfur]

...

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I always looked over this thread... and never bothered coming here because I thought it was stupid and there was no chance...

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Congratulations. It's all I can think to say.

 

[nuc]

looks like you all got PLAYED.

 

[majoras.]

you man must come up with more predictions

 

[Milos]

I would most definately NOT say a "good" chance.

PWNED. HARD.

 

[rm88]

>_< lol at this sig.

 

[silver777]

no no no no no!