Don't be so sure, my friend.
DainBramaged said:
At least the argument for "Red" as a playable character has stopped.
Actually, I heard it just got started up again... as in... right now.
Basic Info
Name: Red
Age: 11
Gender: Male
Occupation: Pokémon Trainer
Residence: Pallet Town, Kanto
Title: Pokémon League Champion
Backstory: Red is an eleven year old Pokémon Trainer from Kanto. Red grew up in a small town called Pallet Town next door to another boy in the neighborhood, Blue. Blue and Red were friends as young kids, but the two of them grew older and Blue became excessively competitive. As Blue gradually became a bully, the two became rivals.
One day, out of the blue, Professor Oak, Blue's grandfather and a leading authority on pokémon, called both of them to his lab. Oak gave each of them a starter pokémon and a pokédex, then they started out on their own journeys. Red traveled all over Kanto with his pokémon, defeating every gym leader that he encountered and gradually improving his skills as a trainer. He clashed with the infamous Team Rocket, a villainous group that uses pokémon for evil purposes, on more than one occasion. He was eventually responsible for foiling their plans for good when he defeated Giovanni, their leader, at the Viridian City Gym. However, despite Red's improvement in his journey, Blue managed to stay one step ahead of Red for his entire adventure and constantly impeded his progress.
After making it past all other obstacles, Red eventually managed to defeat the Elite Four trainers, the most skilled trainers in the entire region... except that Blue had beaten him to it once again. Red and Blue battled in one final match and Red came out as the victor, becoming the Champion of the Pokémon League. Afterwards, Red was admitted by Professor Oak to Mt. Silver, a remote cave in Johto, for training.
Logic
To be honest, the logic behind wanting Red in Super Smash Bros is pretty simple. Trainers are an important part of the pokemon series that should be represented, and in addition, the inclusion of a trainer could represent a lot of other untapped material from the series. Even aside from being a trainer, though, Red has been a rather important character in the series. I'll elaborate on each point shortly.
The first point, "Trainers are important". In the past, many have misconstrued this point. I don't think pokémon are unimportant; I think they're very important. However, trainers are important too. Trainers are essential to the concept of pokémon, because of the way that pokémon developed. It developed initially from Satoshi Tajiri's desire to allow children to collect insects as he did in his youth. There can be no collection without a collector. Trainers are rather important. Speaking of Mr. Tajiri, in an interview, he said the following:
"It's interesting, because in Japan, everybody goes for Pikachu. In the U.S., the characters Ash [Satoshi in Japan] and Pikachu are grouped together. American kids seem to like that. In America there are more products sold with Ash and Pikachu together, not just Pikachu alone. I think Americans actually understand the concept of Pokémon better than the Japanese. The Japanese focus on Pikachu, but what I think is important is the human aspect--you need Ash."
The human aspect is important. The trainer aspect is important. That's the only thing that this point establishes.
When you look at Pokémon's representation in Super Smash Bros, what do you see? Pokémon fighting. Poké balls releasing Pokémon to attack. Battling. Is that all there is to the series? Whatever happened to the collection portion of the game? You know, going around and capturing pokémon in poké balls? The capturing and collecting portion of the games are very important as well, and even contribute to the battling portion. It's important to have some sort of representation for the collecting part of the game, or the concept isn't conveyed in its entirety. A trainer, one of the people who go around and catch the pokémon, would make an excellent representative of this part of the gameplay, and could utilize their various pokémon capturing equipment in their moveset.
Assuming that, to some degree, you agree with the previous points, this leaves us with an important problem: Which trainer do we use? I personally think we should use Red. Red is the original protagonist of the series, and is the only recurring protagonist, giving him credentials similar to Marth. Red appears in each of the first three generations and in about half of the games in the series, his roles including boss appearances and protagonist roles. Red isn't just confined to the games either. Red is set to appear as a trainer figure in the Pokémon Trading Figure Game that will be released later this year. Red, or at least characters very similar to him, have appeared as the protagonists of at least five different manga in Japan. He was recreated in full 3D just for a Pokémon Battle Revolution trailer. He didn't even appear in the game, but they still took the time to make him 3D. After playing many significant roles in-game and appearing in other media in various forms, I think Red has done enough to garner a spot in SSB on his own, even disregarding the previous points.
...And I'm not just supporting an impossible character here. I have reasons and evidence to show that Red's chances are greater than most people would expect, if even just a little.
You may not know this, but Sakurai actually conducted a poll for possible Super Smash Bros Melee characters. He asked Japanese fans to submit their most wanted characters, and the characters were ranked according to the votes they recieved. Coming in at twelfth place was "Satoshi(the protagonist)" from the Pokémon series. Not only did Red score such a high position on this poll, but he was voted in higher characters like Meta-Knight, who's confirmed, and Diddy, who is considered a shoo-in. It's interesting to note that nearly all of the characters above Red on the poll appeared in Super Smash Bros in some form, and nearly none of those below him did. It's not so incredible that Sakurai might pick back up where he left off, but at the very least, he has the idea of Red's appearance to consider.
Also, in the more recent poll, there was a submission for Steven Stone, a powerful trainer from third generation. While we have absolutely no idea why he chose this subission out of all of the others, we do know that Sakurai is at least aware that there is some desire for a trainer's appearance. With the idea of Red on the backburner... well, I can't make assumptions. Let's just say that there's a greater than expected chance for Red's appearance in SSB in some form.
You can believe what you want given this information, just try not to count Red out so early as people have in the past.
Sources:
Satoshi Tajiri Interview
Sakurai's Super Smash Bros. Melee Poll
SamuraiPanda's Translation of the Brawl Poll
Common Counters
Alright, I'm sure that if you've read my post so far, you've probably got a few issues with it. No logic is perfect, and mine certainly isn't, so I've tried to take into account some of the major complaints that I've heard about Red's appearance in SSB. If you're point isn't mentioned here, or you feel that it wasn't sufficiently refuted, feel free to bring it up. Anyways, on to the counters...
Argument: The game is called "Pokémon", not "Trainers".
Counter: Having the game named after them does not automatically get any pokémon in over Red. That's like putting a Metroid in over Samus, or putting a Pikmin in before Captain Olimar. The name of a game does not necessarily determine the significance of the characters. Trainers are important to the Pokémon series even if the series isn't named for them.
Argument: Red would have no moves.
Counter: Red could very easily have moves. Red has two large pools of moves from which to draw: pokémon that he could use, and items that he could use. All of his items could be given a SSB function, and Red could also use various pokémon for attacks for some moves. For a more in depth explanation, take a look at the 'Moveset' section.
Argument: Red isn't a character. He's an avatar of the player, a vessel.
Counter: If Red isn't really a character, then who is that trainer I'm battling at the end of Pokémon Gold? Who's that trainer who shows up at the end of Pokémon Stadium 2? Who is this person named Red that Nintendo made a figure of for the Nintendo trading figure game? Who is that guy at the beginning of the Pokémon Battle Revolution trailer? As of late there has been far too much evidence of Nintendo treating Red as a character for him to be any sort of vessel. Sure, he doesn't exactly have a vibrant and noticable personality, but it's a very common trait of Nintendo RPG protagonists to have rather vague personalities and backstories to help the player get into the game.
Argument: Red could have been replaced with any other trainer and the game would have worked the same way.
Counter: Funny thing is, this is actually pointless argument to make. If another trainer had been substituted for Red, then they would be Red, they'd be the original protagonist, and they'd be the one we're debating in SSB. This is the equivilent of saying that Marth could have been replaced with any swordsman, or that Ness could have been replaced with any kid. You're trying to argue using a hypothetical situation as evidence, which isn't really something you should do if you can avoid it.
Argument: Red just doesn't fight in general. He hides behind his pokémon.
Counter: Pokémon may do the fighting in the Pokémon games, but Red has actual merits to be in Super Smash Bros. Pokémon, for the most part, don't, and actual importance should take precedence over fighting experience. Red is a recurring protagonist and boss character, not to mention the first protagonist. He appears in quite a few other media as well, appearing in the Pokémon Trading Figure Game and having the main characters of five mangas directly based on him.
Well, I'm not sure if you've ever played a pokémon game, but, in most of the games in the series, there's a place called the "Safari Zone". In the Safari Zone, trainers are forbidden to bring their pokémon, and Red, in this park, fights pokémon all on his own. Red fought using rocks, bait, and Safari Balls in the Safari Zone, meaning that Red has actually done more actual in-game fighting than have several characters in Super Smash Bros Melee.
Argument: Pokémon should be represented by Pokémon. Trainers have never been in SSB before. They just wouldn't work.
Counter: Trainers have never been in before, but that doesn't mean they shouldn't. Trainers are important to the Pokémon series, even if not as important as Pokémon themselves. Trainers are the driving force behind the story of the game, they're the villains and heroes and allies. Trainers are essential to the very concept of the game: collecting and training monsters to battle. Anyone can work in Super Smash Bros, and trainers certainly aren't the most difficult to work in.
Argument: Red isn't popular.
Counter: I'd like to quote Sakurai as he said, "Adding only popular characters doesn't get me excited." Sakurai wants to add lesser known and less popular characters in Super Smash Bros Brawl, and Red, being a not-so-popular character who has a lot of significance to balance it out, would make a fine candidate.
Red's Appearances
Although Red is not particularly well-known or popular, he is, in fact, a recurring character throughout most of the pokemon series. Red appears in 9 of the currently released 18 games in the main series, which is half of the series, and more than any other character, save for Professor Oak. Red is also a protagonist in the series which makes his recurrence even more unique. No other protagonist has ever appeared outside of their debut games. Not only this, but Red is frequently featured in other media as well. Red, or a character that is directly based on him, is the main character of two sagas of "Pokemon Special", a popular Pokemon manga in Japan. All of the main characters of the other manga series are also based on Red, as is the main character of the anime, Ash. Red is also going to be making an appearance in the upcoming Pokemon Trading Figure Game as a common trainer figure. The following is a list of Red's appearances and their significance:
Pokémon Red & Blue(Gameboy/May '98)
Pokémon Red and Blue was Red's first appearance. Red was the protagonist of this first game in the series, the game that turned the series into a worldwide success. All other protagonists in all other media were based on Red's initial appearance, and their adventures were based on his. Being the first protagonist of the series is a rather important role.
Pokémon Yellow(Gameboy Color/Oct '99)
Pokémon Yellow was another appearance as a protagonist, but it's basically the same one. Pokémon Yellow deviated slightly from Pokémon Red & Blue's storyline, including more elements from the show, and even revising Red's appearance to make him appear just a bit more similar to his anime counterpart.
Pokémon Gold & Silver(Gameboy Color/Oct '00)
Pokémon Gold and Silver is the first time that a protagonist from the pokémon series has ever reappeared in later games, though it would not be the last. Red was that protagonist. In Pokémon Gold and Silver, Red serves as the true final boss. After the player defeats the Elite Four and collects all 16 badges, they are able to find and challenge Red at Mount Silver for a battle, in whiich Red uses the highest-leveled party any opponent has ever had in the series.
Pokémon Crystal(Gameboy Color/July '01)
There wasn't much of an addition to Red's role in Pokémon Crystal, but, as in Pokémon Gold and Silver, Red appears as the final trainer battle in the game, and remains one of the toughest opponents in the series.
Pokémon Stadium 2(Nintendo 64/March '01)
(Screenshot Unavailable)
In Pokémon Stadium 2, Red appears as a final boss yet again. After fighting your way through both the Johto and Kanto Gym Leader Castles, Red appears as your final opponent and uses an impressive team, consisting of several very powerful and rare pokémon.
Pokémon FireRed & Leafgreen(Gameboy Advance/Sept '04)
Pokémon FireRed and LeafGreen are remakes of the original games, Pokémon Red and Blue(Red and Green in Japan, hense Leaf"Green" ). Rather than just reuse Red's old character art, though, Ken Sugimori completely redesigned him. Red's new appearance makes him distinct from his counterparts in other media, but still resembles his original appearance. This is the first and only time in the series that a protagonist has been one in multiple generations, and marks the third consecutive generation of pokémon games in which Red makes an appearance.
Pokémon Battle Revolution(N/A)
Red doesn't actually appear in Pokémon Battle Revolution as far as anyone knows, but he was featured in the original trailer for the game, along with his female counterpart. It's not known why Red was fully animated in Wii-quality 3D simply just for short trailer, but it certainly shows that Nintendo hasn't forgotten about him.
Pokémon Trading Figure Game(N/A)
Red is going to appear as a common trainer figure in the first expansion set of the Pokémon Trading Figure Game, Next Quext. The trainer figure is essential for using trainer cards, but it doesn't seem to matter which one you use. Red is included in one of the two starter kits, called Flamethrower.
Manga
While Red in any media is fairly uncommon outside Japan, there have been several comics starring Red, or characters incredibly similar to Red. Pocket Monsters Special, Pocket Monsters Getto Da Ze, Pocket Monsters and Pocket Monsters Zensho are all examples.
Moveset
The major concern I run into when I suggest Red seems to be that people doubt his fighting ability. It is commonly suggested that Red doesn't have the potential to have any moves. This is incorrect, as Red has a bigger pool of potential moves to draw from than many possible newcomers to SSB. I think the way I'd expect Red to fight can best be explained by this short conversation in the manga:
Page scanned by nicoleb from The PokéCommunity
I really think that there are enough items in pokemon for Red to build a decent moveset around them. Red wouldn't be an incredibly powerful character, but the lack of brute force wouldn't matter. Red is equipped with high-tech gear used for controlling monsters, and he could use the same tools to manipulate his opponents. Most items may not come off as weapons at first, but then, as we've seen in past SSB games, things don't often keep their exact same function in the translation to SSB. Taking a few liberties with the properties of the items, the team at Sora could really come up with some unique attacks.
But then, why limit Red to items? Red is a pokémon trainer, afterall. This gives him a whole other pool to draw moves from, the moves of his pokémon. I'm not suggesting giving Red some sort of attack that serves the same effect as the SSB "poké ball" item. What I'm suggesting is giving Red the ability to have access to his pokemon for brief periods in order to attain certain effects. Is Red falling from the stage? Pop open a poké ball and have a pokémon use the HM move "Fly" to carry Red upwards. Red's using pokémon wouldn't be any different in practice than the special moves of any other characters.
I'm not sure if you agree with my moveset ideas or not, but here's an example moveset I made:
-Stats-
Height: 3/5
Weight: 3/5
Attack Power: 2/5
Grab Range: 5/5
Running Speed: 3/5
Vertical Jump: 4/5
Horizontal Jump: 3/5
Falling Speed: 3/5
Rolling Speed: 4/5
-Specials-
B: Poké Ball(Upon pressing B, Red quickly reaches to his belt and grabs a poké ball. He throws the ball forward as if it was a smash-throw. If the ball makes contact with an opponent, the opponent will take a small amount of damage, and will be contained within the ball. The opponent can struggle out of the ball, and they will be released much sooner if they are in mid-air. Upon being released, the opponent will be popped into the air a bit, and, they will recover all used mid-air jumps. If the ball is on the ground, it can be picked up and thrown, though, it's most useful to throw the ball into the ground or level hazards to cause damage. 3-6% )
Smash B: Trap(Red tosses a trap on the ground in front of him. Traps function somewhat like motion sensor bombs, in that they activate when someone is in the direct proximity. When the trap is stepped on, the foe will be pulled into the center of the trap and continually dealt damage until they wiggle free with the control stick. The traps only do about 2 damage per 1/2 second, and the opponent will automatically break free after 3 seconds. Red can only have one trap on the stage at a given time, and Red can be caught in his own trap. The trap has a period after hitting the ground for which it won't activate, which lasts about 1 second. The trap is randomly either a leaf, fire or bubble trap, and they all have the same effect. 2-12% )
Down B: Repel(This move involves Red reaching to his belt and producing a small can of repel which he sprays himself with. The Repel forms a fumy shield around Red for approximately 3 seconds. If an opponent makes contact with the shield, the opponent will be pushed away and into the air a bit, landing collapsed on the floor if they were on the ground. If in the air, the effect will be the same, but with the increased time to react, they will be able to jump and recover without falling, provided they were not already too far off the stage to begin with. The shield also works to reflect all physical projectiles, including any thrown items, and character's projectiles such as Yoshi's eggs or Link's arrows, but energy projectiles, such as Ness's PK Thunder or Fox's blaster, will go right through. Red can move while the shield is active, but he is unable to use attacks. There is a 20 second period Red must wait to use the move again.)
Up B: Fly(Red reaches to his belt and produces a poké ball which he immediately opens. A flying pokémon is released from the pokéball, but, as in the pokémon games, it merely appears as a silhouette and cannot be distinguished. Red grabs onto the pokémon and rides it straight upwards into the air, then downwards at a diagonal. At any point in the move, Red may grab onto a ledge and the pokémon will be returned. Contact with the pokémon will cause damage to foes, but attacking the pokémon will cause it to fail, causing Red to fall, but allowing him another chance to use the move. 5-8% )
Final Smash: Champion Finish(Red tosses a poké ball into the air and a pokémon, either Venusaur, Charizard, or Blastoise, will be released to do an attack. Each will do it's own respective "ultimate attack." Venusaur's Frenzy Plant will cover the floors of the stage in damaging vines, Charizard's Blast Burn will fire a gigantic stream of flame across the stage to damage many foes, and Blastoise's Hydro Cannon will fire many small but powerful water blasts all over the stage at random trajectories.)
-Throws-
Grab: Super Rod(Red has an extended grab using the Super Rod. Red casts when you press the Z button, and spends time afterwards reeling in the line. Unlike other extended grabs, the Super Rod cannot be used for recovery, however, it does have the ability to grab opponents after it is initially cast, if the hook makes contact with an opponent as Red reels it in.)
Grab Attack: Smack(Red smacks the opponent on the head with his fist as he holds them with his other hand.1%-3% )
U Throw: Poké Ball Toss(Red quickly captures the foe in one of his poké balls, then tosses it straight up into the air. At the apex of the throw, the foe is realeased in a random direction.5-8% )
D Throw: Safari Rock(Red pushes off his opponents with both feet, sending them skidding forwards and him slightly jumping backwards. While in the air, he throws a rock back towards his opponent. The knockback for the actual throw is fairly static, while the rock's knockback increases with damage.4%-9% )
F Throw: Pack Launch(Red slides his back pack off and smashes it into the face of his opponent, sending them flying forwards..6-8% )
B Throw: Escape Rope(Red wraps an escape rope around his foe and tosses them forwards. when they reach the end of the rope, Red pulls on it hard, swinging them back around and sending them spinning in the opposite direction.5-8% )
-Regular Attacks-
(Moves are only named for pokémon moves. None actually involve pokémon. I just don't have any creativity when it comes to move names.)
A: Punch(2-3% )
A-2: Punch(2-3% )
A-3: Uppercut(An uppercut. Upward knockback.3-4% )
Dash A: Running Shoes(Red starts using his running shoes and dashes really fast for a second to bowl over enemies. Knocks them back/up.4-7% )
U Tilt: False Swipe(Red punches upward. Minimal upward knockback.3-7% )
D Tilt: Dig(Red crouches(or is already crouching) and punches across the ground. Small forward/upward knockback.2-5% )
F Tilt: Rolling Kick(A sort of forward stomp; Red pulls up his foot and jams his foot forward.4-8% )
U Smash: Skull bash(Red jams his head upward to headbutt his enemy straight up.10-20% )
D Smash: Bag Sweep(A sweep attack with Red's back pack. up/back knockback.9-16% )
F Smash: Pack Smack(Red pulls off his pack and swings it in front of him, then quickly replaces it. Strong horizontal knockback.8-20% )
N Air: Jump Kick(Kicks and spins.4-9% )
U Air: Sonic Boom(Red turns upside down and stomps upward.6-12% )
D Air: Sky Attack(Red winds up and punches downward causing him to flip. If Red hits an opponent at the very beginning of the punch, it's a meteor smash.5-9% )
F Air: Aerial Ace(A forward mid-air punch. Knocks the opponent down and forward .6-8% )
B Air: Double Kick(Turns and does a series of two kicks. Low knockback for the first hit, mid knockback for the second one.3-5% each hit )
Stand up attack: Spikes(Red kicks up his feet to attack, then uses them to right himself.2-3% )
Ledge attack 1 (Under 100% damage): Slam (Red pulls himself up into the air then kicks hard, then lands on the stage.2-4% )
Ledge attack 2 (Over 100% damage): Double Edge(Red pulls himself up into a shoulder ramming attack.1-3% )
-Additional Info-
Taunt-Red tips his hat towards the camera
Unlock-Assuming Red is not playable from the start, unlocking Red would either involve a pokémon related task, such as seeing every non-special pokémon in a poké ball, or a special objective in Adventure mode, such as defeating the entire pokémon segment using poké balls, leading to an optional boss fight.
Costume
Kirby hat- When sucked in by Kirby, Kirby will gain Red's hat and some brown hair. He will also gain the Poké Ball ability for B.
Victory Poses
Victory Pose 1: Red tips his hat towards the screen, as he does in his taunt. It's an allusion to his appearance in the trailer for Pokémon Battle Revolution.
Victory Pose 2: Red stands with his right hand extended to the side, holding a poke ball. He tosses it into air and catches it in his hand, then looks at the camera, a reference to the opening sequence of Pokémon Red.
Victory Pose 3: Red pumps his fist forward, and pulls it back. His stance would resemble his battle sprite from Pokémon FireRed while he had his fist extended.
Loss Pose- Red "whites out." In essence, Red can be seen standing with his slumped down as if he were unconscious.
Entrance- A flying pokémon swoops by and Red jumps off its back, landing on the stage. Red then holds up a poké ball that the pokémon returns to.
Relevant Links
Red's Bulbapedia Page
A profile for Red on the Nintendo Database
Pokémon Gold's Final Battle: Red
Pokémon Battle Revolution Trailer: Red in full 3D
Fake Red in SSBB Trailer
