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Pokemon Trainer (Red!) Discussion

DainBramaged

Smash Ace
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Besides, Capitain Falcon never did anything in his games. And don't use that "He's a Bounty Hunter." excuse on me. I mean, since when could Bounty Hunters punch with the force of an explosive?...Didn't think so.

So my point is, anyone can be in Smash if they have a good moveset...INCLUDING a Pokemon Trainer that has never been seen fighting.
Yes, they did make a new moveset for falcon that had not based on any preivious games....

and a good thing they did too.....F-Zero is a good series, and deserved to be in smash....and who better to put in then Captain Falcon, the main guy.......but you see, there's the thing....Captian falcon is a MAJOR character from the series, he is the central character....

RED IS NOT! HE IS NOWHERE NEAR ANYTHING IMPORTANT TO THE POKEMON SERIES AS AN ACTUAL POKEMON WOULD BE! So while it is very much sensible to make new moveset's for characters that have never been seen fighting before, it is just plain stupid to do it for a character who is useless, not important, and not a good representation of the series.
 

spikeball

Smash Rookie
Joined
Jun 5, 2007
Messages
11
To call the trainer useless and unimportant is going a bit too far. The character you play as is the trainer ... without him all you would have is the crappy Mystery Dungeon games.

Don't get me wrong ... I don't want Red as a playable character in brawl, but we can be more sensible with this discussion.
 

silver777

Smash Champion
Joined
Apr 14, 2007
Messages
2,798
Location
In Akaneia, blasting every castle with a pink Land
To call the trainer useless and unimportant is going a bit too far. The character you play as is the trainer ... without him all you would have is the crappy Mystery Dungeon games.

Don't get me wrong ... I don't want Red as a playable character in brawl, but we can be more sensible with this discussion.
hey,the dungeon games are pretty good:(

IMO playing as the pokemon is more fun than the trainer himself .
Originally Posted by Jigglymaster
Wrongo, if you didn't know Captan Falcon had his own anime show, and here is him doing a Falcon Punch.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FFtw7qW7Vcw
I don't remember Red doing a Falcon Punch or nuthin. =P
i LOLed through the whole clip
 

axi0n

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jun 18, 2007
Messages
94
Make it May/Dawn/Fire Red Girl and we'll talk :p

But seriously I don't see them adding any non Pokemon representatives from the
Pokemon franchise even if its a cool idea that could be unique... being realistic I say no,
based on uniqueness I say why not? If we're lucky maybe one of the Pokemon stages will
have Red/Other Pokemon main characters as a hazard.
 

the grim lizard

Smash Master
Joined
Nov 26, 2004
Messages
3,130
O.o ..........

kk....WHY did this thread have to come back!!!! I thought it was gone, and we had seen the last of this madness......but no.....I must retourn to flame.....again....

I swear, I am so annoyed seeing these "ash for brawl" or " red for brawl", "blue for brawl" , "insert colour here for brawl" threads/posts.....they have got to be some of thee stupidest, agonizing, childish, pointless ideas I will ever consider responding to....

Whoever thinks, that out of the overly large selection of 400+ pokemon there are, that a TRAINER will be playable in brawl is DEAD wrong, and possible some of the saddest "fanboys" I have ever heard from......and many others have heard from aswell.....and I'm 100% sure what I'm about to argue, MUST have been said before, because it scares me to think there are no sane people who would have already mentioned this.

first off.....so many of these posted movesets for ...(I'll just go with red) Red, involve summoning pokemon for certain attacks.....hmmmm.....seems logical, and a good idea for gameplay to add to smash..........................................................................................
THAT'S WHY THE POKEBALL IS A FREAKING ITEM!!!!!! SO ANY CHARACTER CAN THROW ONE, AND A POKEMON APEARS!!!!!! ANY character can throw a pokeball, ANY, so how origional would it be to just be able to do that for "Red's"moves? Pretty dull......

Second....Red is not popular.....infact he's MAJORLY UNPOPULAR.....like....go to any random person....say the word "Pokemon" and what comes to mind? Well, probably things like Pickachu, Mewtwo, Meowth....because they are ACTUAL POKEMON!.....NOBODY, will ever think of "Red".....WHY, because it's just a name...a POSIBLE naem at that......it is a character, who really has no character (he just walks.....he dosn't talk- he has no personality- he dosn't battle, he let's his pokemon do that) If there's is going to be any character representing the "POKEMON" series, then wouldn't it be logical that it would be an actual "POKEMON" !!!!!.....you know....HENCE THE NAME POKEMON!

Thirdly- Now, other movesets i've seen have included moves such as punching and kicking....which brings me to another point.....WHY WOULD RED ACTUALLY BE FIGHTING?!?!? I mean.....that's kinda the point of being a pokemon trainer....YOU DO NOT FIGHT! YOU LET YOUR "POKEMON" FIGHT! YOU TEST YOUR "POKEMON'S" STRENGTH IN BATTLE! NOT YOUR OWN! so WHY! would Red actually be fighting, and getting hit? HE WOULDN'T WHEN THE TRAINER'S FREAKING BATTLE, THEY DO SO WITH .....POKEMON!!! NOT THEMSELVES!........Even at the begining of each frickon game.....the "Professer" always says the same stupid thing "oh, don't step in the grass, you might be attacked, you need to have pokemon to battle with first" ........ why would he say this, unless the trainers could f'n fight for themselves......:mad:

Red WOULD NOT IN THE LEAST BE ANY FORM OF "GOOD" REPRESENTATION FOR BRAWL! If there will be representation for "Pokemon" it WILL BE A "POKEMON" why? BECAUSE THE GAME IS ABOUT """POKEMON"""! He would also be bad representation, because when poeple see him/play as him, they will think it is so incredible lame & unbearably stupid, the Pokemon franchise would be leaving a bad image for itself

:mad: so there, once again I had to respond to this POS idea of trainers in brawl....and, As Iv'e said on other "Red flamming occasions" ( a fellow smasher once said) " unless he is the alternate costume for the sandbag in the homerun contest, then there is NO good reason for him to be in Brawl" ....

PS: It's not often I make longer posts about things, because I am somewhat of a dyslexic (though I think i've come quite a long way, I DO try to catch my errors, and have become fairly good with a keyboard).....so if anyone tries to BS my points due to my spelling errors, then A: your getting personal, and B: It's a lousy excuse in the first place
http://nindb.classicgaming.gamespy.com/stars/red.shtml

"Nintendo Stars"
 

DainBramaged

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^^^^^^

............I don't get what your saying......that link is just his character Bio......it says ABSOLUTLY nothing on WHY he is important enough for brawl...or anything else I posted.....
 

PSIguy89

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Well a lot of people seem to be dead set against Red being in it but i'd have to say i like the overall idea. Sure Red may not be as important as the pokemon, and sure pokemon are MUCH better representatives for their series but Red would be a breath of fresh air. you can't tell me that Pichu would be a better choice!!! i think that the only pokemon characters that should appear should be Pikachu, Mewtwo, and well why not Red? (no one has to answer that last part -_-)
 

the grim lizard

Smash Master
Joined
Nov 26, 2004
Messages
3,130
^^^^^^

............I don't get what your saying......that link is just his character Bio......it says ABSOLUTLY nothing on WHY he is important enough for brawl...or anything else I posted.....
Look at the heading and category and whatnot. He's under "Nintendo Stars" I said that in my post, btw...

My point was that he isn't just some random "Ash, blue, whatever" guy...he's a star, more or less. I'm just pointing out that he "fits" that genre of characters.

Not saying I want him in, but it is perfectly possible for him to use pokemon and whatnot and be legit. I wrote something about it earlier, but I'm too lazy to go find it. It shouldn't be too far back.
 

shocker90

Smash Rookie
Joined
Jul 12, 2007
Messages
6
Location
new hampshire
I think that Red would be a pretty good addition or if not that at least a AT I can see why a lot of people are against but people had really good ideas for his moves I'd play as him.
 

DainBramaged

Smash Ace
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Messages
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In....sanity.....insanity
Look at the heading and category and whatnot. He's under "Nintendo Stars" I said that in my post, btw...

My point was that he isn't just some random "Ash, blue, whatever" guy...he's a star, more or less. I'm just pointing out that he "fits" that genre of characters.

Not saying I want him in, but it is perfectly possible for him to use pokemon and whatnot and be legit. I wrote something about it earlier, but I'm too lazy to go find it. It shouldn't be too far back.
.....of coarse, he's a "star", and he has a name...."Red" (however creative that is)......

Alhough he is technically a "star" because he stared in a game.......and a remake.......of the same freaking game.......he is still, one of THEE worst possible brawl characters there are....

there are A LOT of video game characters that are "stars" but that dosn't mean they are good for brawl, or even good......period...

like I said earlier.....Red is a character......without any real character....like....my post said it all.... Pokemon would still make better rep for the Pokemon series......considering their more popular, more creative, and the fact that pokemon are supposed to fight.....trainers arn't...

though, I still agree he's, like u pointed out, a "star" , he's still got to be one of the worst suggestions Ive seen for potential brawl characters....

even just at first glance, it's seem stupid for a trainer to be fighting one on one with a pokemon
 

alpha n00b

Smash Ace
Joined
Oct 23, 2006
Messages
853
Red is my favorite pkmn trainer.... but even i know he has no chance of making the roster. but atleast it's not nearly as bad idea as ridley.
 

Steven Hail

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Jun 5, 2007
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The US-Canadian border
I always thought Red could fight with pre-set pokemon as specials and punches/kicks for standard attacks. (You know like how Yugi fights in Jump Super Stars, IF you ever played it) Though I wouldn't mind if he was an Assist Trophy.
 

DainBramaged

Smash Ace
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Messages
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In....sanity.....insanity
Red is my favorite pkmn trainer.... but even i know he has no chance of making the roster. .
wOOt, someone sensible

. but atleast it's not nearly as bad idea as ridley.
......or mabey not..

Assist Trophey at best.
YES! and even to be an assist trophy is pushing it....."at best" may mean Sakurai is"on crack"

I always thought Red could fight with pre-set pokemon as specials and punches/kicks for standard attacks. (You know like how Yugi fights in Jump Super Stars, IF you ever played it) Though I wouldn't mind if he was an Assist Trophy.
"Jump super stars"?!?....well....if there's a game with YUGI fighting in it, then that's probably reason enough I've never heard of it.

Edit- hopefully this thread is old again when I come back from work...
 

Dotcom

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"Jump super stars"?!?....well....if there's a game with YUGI fighting in it, then that's probably reason enough I've never heard of it.
Actually even with Yugi in the game, Jump Superstars is a great game.

But to be on topic, I can see red in the game but then again I don't.

Like I can envision Red's moves and movemet, and everything else. That's really not a problem Like regualr attacks Jumps regular movement. but for his B moves i can see like different Pokemon coming out than you would get out of a regualr pokeball.
example Up B, I see Red riding on a Pidgeot.

But the chances of him gitting in are like slim to hell no.
 

Fawriel

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Actually, Assist Trophy sounds like a good idea to me.

It would give Pokemon the sole possible way of representation through ATs, which isn't exactly NECESSARY seeing they have Pokeballs, but it seems suitable.
Red ( probably him ) could, well, throw a Pokeball, but... that's kinda ridiculous. =P
Another possibility would be that he takes out the three original starters, probably unevolved, and makes them perform a triple attack in all directions. That would be spiffy.


And just for good measure, I'll reiterate my idea of making a trainer an optional "add-on" for the playable Pokemon.
They appear in the start to release the Pokemon, then reappear during the victory scene to cheer next to their Pokemon.
It seems like a good idea for immersion and for including the player in the action, which is exactly what the trainer was supposed to do in the original games.
In the new Pokemon Stadium, you can let yourself be represented by a custom-made trainer model. So why not do something similar here?
 

Brawlman

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I dunno, you tell me.
The game is called Pokemon Battle Revolution, Fawriel. And I like your idea.

But, unlike most people, I can see Red as a playable character. Sure he may not be the most likely, but hey, why not have him in? There's no reason Sakuri can't put him in. And we don't know how many people could be in Brawl.

Any posibility is a posibility.
 

Brawlman

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I dunno, you tell me.
agreed, even though id still LOVE to see him fight, it seems like no one else would :p i can settle for assist trophy
I'm on the same boat as you dude.

I'm one of the few people here that realize that anything can happen in a video game...ANYTHING!!! So what if a trainer fights his pokemon? You can have Link slash Zelda to no end. So the "Red can't be in Brawl 'cause it'd be dumb for a trainer to fight a pokemon" arguement is completely invalid, 'cause you can battle with characters that shouldn't be battling.

I'm just voicing my opinion here. I'm not saying he'll be in Brawl, I'm just saying it's not stupid and impossible.
 

PSIguy89

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very well said Brawlman ^^
i can't see him in, but it would be interesting none the less
(and if it were between Red and any of the new pokemon i'd rather see Red)
 

WhiteZER0

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Jun 27, 2007
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171
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Yellowknife, soon to be Calgary =/
Okay, I'm gonna say this clearly, and bluntly (AGAIN):

No, just no. Don't take this TO harshly, but this is probably the most ridiculous character suggestions I've heard. Not only would he be one of the weakest, it would be hard to make a move set for him that would make total sense (seeing as how we have POKEBALLS for POKEMON). You fan boys can keep on dreaming, but I think even YOU know he does not have a chance of getting in.
 

DainBramaged

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In....sanity.....insanity
This thread.....is still around? :confused:

Okay, I'm gonna say this clearly, and bluntly (AGAIN):

No, just no. Don't take this TO harshly, but this is probably the most ridiculous character suggestions I've heard. Not only would he be one of the weakest, it would be hard to make a move set for him that would make total sense (seeing as how we have POKEBALLS for POKEMON). You fan boys can keep on dreaming, but I think even YOU know he does not have a chance of getting in.
100% agreed.....but I happily invite people to take it "harshly" from me...so

O.o ..........

kk....WHY did this thread have to come back!!!! I thought it was gone, and we had seen the last of this madness......but no.....I must retourn to flame.....again....

I swear, I am so annoyed seeing these "ash for brawl" or " red for brawl", "blue for brawl" , "insert colour here for brawl" threads/posts.....they have got to be some of thee stupidest, agonizing, childish, pointless ideas I will ever consider responding to....

Whoever thinks, that out of the overly large selection of 400+ pokemon there are, that a TRAINER will be playable in brawl is DEAD wrong, and possible some of the saddest "fanboys" I have ever heard from......and many others have heard from aswell.....and I'm 100% sure what I'm about to argue, MUST have been said before, because it scares me to think there are no sane people who would have already mentioned this.

first off.....so many of these posted movesets for ...(I'll just go with red) Red, involve summoning pokemon for certain attacks.....hmmmm.....seems logical, and a good idea for gameplay to add to smash..........................................................................................
THAT'S WHY THE POKEBALL IS A FREAKING ITEM!!!!!! SO ANY CHARACTER CAN THROW ONE, AND A POKEMON APEARS!!!!!! ANY character can throw a pokeball, ANY, so how origional would it be to just be able to do that for "Red's"moves? Pretty dull......

Second....Red is not popular.....infact he's MAJORLY UNPOPULAR.....like....go to any random person....say the word "Pokemon" and what comes to mind? Well, probably things like Pickachu, Mewtwo, Meowth....because they are ACTUAL POKEMON!.....NOBODY, will ever think of "Red".....WHY, because it's just a name...a POSIBLE naem at that......it is a character, who really has no character (he just walks.....he dosn't talk- he has no personality- he dosn't battle, he let's his pokemon do that) If there's is going to be any character representing the "POKEMON" series, then wouldn't it be logical that it would be an actual "POKEMON" !!!!!.....you know....HENCE THE NAME POKEMON!

Thirdly- Now, other movesets i've seen have included moves such as punching and kicking....which brings me to another point.....WHY WOULD RED ACTUALLY BE FIGHTING?!?!? I mean.....that's kinda the point of being a pokemon trainer....YOU DO NOT FIGHT! YOU LET YOUR "POKEMON" FIGHT! YOU TEST YOUR "POKEMON'S" STRENGTH IN BATTLE! NOT YOUR OWN! so WHY! would Red actually be fighting, and getting hit? HE WOULDN'T WHEN THE TRAINER'S FREAKING BATTLE, THEY DO SO WITH .....POKEMON!!! NOT THEMSELVES!........Even at the begining of each frickon game.....the "Professer" always says the same stupid thing "oh, don't step in the grass, you might be attacked, you need to have pokemon to battle with first" ........ why would he say this, unless the trainers could f'n fight for themselves......:mad:

Red WOULD NOT IN THE LEAST BE ANY FORM OF "GOOD" REPRESENTATION FOR BRAWL! If there will be representation for "Pokemon" it WILL BE A "POKEMON" why? BECAUSE THE GAME IS ABOUT """POKEMON"""! He would also be bad representation, because when poeple see him/play as him, they will think it is so incredible lame & unbearably stupid, the Pokemon franchise would be leaving a bad image for itself

:mad: so there, once again I had to respond to this POS idea of trainers in brawl....and, As Iv'e said on other "Red flamming occasions" ( a fellow smasher once said) " unless he is the alternate costume for the sandbag in the homerun contest, then there is NO good reason for him to be in Brawl" ....

PS: It's not often I make longer posts about things, because I am somewhat of a dyslexic (though I think i've come quite a long way, I DO try to catch my errors, and have become fairly good with a keyboard).....so if anyone tries to BS my points due to my spelling errors, then A: your getting personal, and B: It's a lousy excuse in the first place
*bump*

and as far as the assist trophy argument goes....it strikes me as total, utter pointlessness....instead of having pokemon come from a pokeball, why have don't we have them come from a guy, who comes out of a trophy....yeah...that'd make perfect sence....just to show credit to "red".....who is barely creditable in the first place....

Edit~ Red being a regular trophy is fine.
 

Brawlman

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I dunno, you tell me.
*Sigh* All of you seem to have a one track mind.

Okay, here's my arguement for a Red Assist Trophy.

The item activates and Red appears. He sends out one of three Pokemon. Venasaur, Charizard, or Blastoise. I know what you're thinking, "But they appear in the Pokeballs stupid!", But the ones Red sends out are special. Instead of using their regular Pokeball attacks, they use the "Elemental Hyper Beams." A giant wave of fire from Charizard (Blast Burn), 4 huge, thrashing spiked vines from random places in the ground from Venasaur (Frenzy Plant), and an extremely high pressure water blast from Blastoise (Hydro Cannon). All the while, Red is riding on top of the Pokemon so he doesn't get hit. All the attacks do major damage, but there is a lag time between the realese of the Pokemon and the attack, so you know which one is coming and avoid it.

"How do you avoid it?" You ask. Blast Burn only travels horizontaly, so you can just go above or below Charizard. Frenzy Plant's vines have to dig through the ground, so you can see the changes in the ground where the vines would pop up (The ground effect differs with each stage). And Hydro Cannon, like Blast Burn, only travels horizontaly. So you can see, although the attacks are strong, it's easy to avoid them.

And when the Pokemon are done with their attacks, Red calls them back and dissapears...In the way all Assists do...Whatever that is.

...WHEW!!! I've never written so much just for one thing out of annoyence. (You haters are getting annoying)
 

ToddCam

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Nov 29, 2001
Messages
418
Location
Philadelphia
Having just read this entire thread, I find it quite amusing that there were complaints about the bike idea, and yet Wario has a very similar attack.
 

alpha n00b

Smash Ace
Joined
Oct 23, 2006
Messages
853
For an AT the only thing i could think of is when he randomly throws a rock which does measly damage, but enrages the fighter so they just stand there blowing out steam, the other, bait, just food.
 

DainBramaged

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Messages
637
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In....sanity.....insanity
*Sigh* All of you seem to have a one track mind.

Okay, here's my arguement for a Red Assist Trophy.

The item activates and Red appears. He sends out one of three Pokemon. Venasaur, Charizard, or Blastoise. I know what you're thinking, "But they appear in the Pokeballs stupid!", But the ones Red sends out are special. Instead of using their regular Pokeball attacks, they use the "Elemental Hyper Beams." A giant wave of fire from Charizard (Blast Burn), 4 huge, thrashing spiked vines from random places in the ground from Venasaur (Frenzy Plant), and an extremely high pressure water blast from Blastoise (Hydro Cannon). All the while, Red is riding on top of the Pokemon so he doesn't get hit. All the attacks do major damage, but there is a lag time between the realese of the Pokemon and the attack, so you know which one is coming and avoid it.

"How do you avoid it?" You ask. Blast Burn only travels horizontaly, so you can just go above or below Charizard. Frenzy Plant's vines have to dig through the ground, so you can see the changes in the ground where the vines would pop up (The ground effect differs with each stage). And Hydro Cannon, like Blast Burn, only travels horizontaly. So you can see, although the attacks are strong, it's easy to avoid them.

And when the Pokemon are done with their attacks, Red calls them back and dissapears...In the way all Assists do...Whatever that is.

...WHEW!!! I've never written so much just for one thing out of annoyence. (You haters are getting annoying)
Trust me, what I wrote was also out of annoyance.... the Red supporters have ALWAYS been annoying IMO...

Listen, when I read that the first time (i think from Fawriel) I understood the concept, and how the attack worked....but it's still a pretty dumb idea.... WHY waste more "rep" space on pokemon, for an assist trophy? why? Pokemon was already incredibly over repped in melee ( HOW many different pokemon were in that game? It was at LEAST 30) Pokemon has more than enough rep (most likely going to get more just from new pokemon) ....and just adding in Red would be a total waste considering the actual POKEMON are better representation of the series....

also.....considering Charizard, Blastoise & Venasaur are most likely to appear in pokeballs anyways....it'd be another waste to have them appear AGAIN through an AT. Even if they preform a different attack, there still taking away a spot for other pokemon, there not coming from pokeballs. So it would just be more pointless uneeded rep for pokemon (rather than having other pokemon included)

Okay Red's AT makes much, MUCH more sense now. He might be a reasonable AT, especially if Dr. Wright is one.
No. Dr. Wright was the BEST sourse of representation for Simcity, thus he was included. Unlike Red, who is IS NOT the best representation for the pokemon series.

Having just read this entire thread, I find it quite amusing that there were complaints about the bike idea, and yet Wario has a very similar attack.

for me...it's not the idea of the bike.....it's the idea of "Red" himself

Edit~ At least the argument for "Red" as a playable character has stopped.
 

Deku Boy

Smash Cadet
Joined
Aug 22, 2006
Messages
35
Don't be so sure, my friend.

DainBramaged said:
At least the argument for "Red" as a playable character has stopped.
Actually, I heard it just got started up again... as in... right now.











Basic Info



Name: Red
Age: 11
Gender: Male
Occupation: Pokémon Trainer
Residence: Pallet Town, Kanto
Title: Pokémon League Champion

Backstory: Red is an eleven year old Pokémon Trainer from Kanto. Red grew up in a small town called Pallet Town next door to another boy in the neighborhood, Blue. Blue and Red were friends as young kids, but the two of them grew older and Blue became excessively competitive. As Blue gradually became a bully, the two became rivals.

One day, out of the blue, Professor Oak, Blue's grandfather and a leading authority on pokémon, called both of them to his lab. Oak gave each of them a starter pokémon and a pokédex, then they started out on their own journeys. Red traveled all over Kanto with his pokémon, defeating every gym leader that he encountered and gradually improving his skills as a trainer. He clashed with the infamous Team Rocket, a villainous group that uses pokémon for evil purposes, on more than one occasion. He was eventually responsible for foiling their plans for good when he defeated Giovanni, their leader, at the Viridian City Gym. However, despite Red's improvement in his journey, Blue managed to stay one step ahead of Red for his entire adventure and constantly impeded his progress.

After making it past all other obstacles, Red eventually managed to defeat the Elite Four trainers, the most skilled trainers in the entire region... except that Blue had beaten him to it once again. Red and Blue battled in one final match and Red came out as the victor, becoming the Champion of the Pokémon League. Afterwards, Red was admitted by Professor Oak to Mt. Silver, a remote cave in Johto, for training.






Logic


To be honest, the logic behind wanting Red in Super Smash Bros is pretty simple. Trainers are an important part of the pokemon series that should be represented, and in addition, the inclusion of a trainer could represent a lot of other untapped material from the series. Even aside from being a trainer, though, Red has been a rather important character in the series. I'll elaborate on each point shortly.


The first point, "Trainers are important". In the past, many have misconstrued this point. I don't think pokémon are unimportant; I think they're very important. However, trainers are important too. Trainers are essential to the concept of pokémon, because of the way that pokémon developed. It developed initially from Satoshi Tajiri's desire to allow children to collect insects as he did in his youth. There can be no collection without a collector. Trainers are rather important. Speaking of Mr. Tajiri, in an interview, he said the following:

"It's interesting, because in Japan, everybody goes for Pikachu. In the U.S., the characters Ash [Satoshi in Japan] and Pikachu are grouped together. American kids seem to like that. In America there are more products sold with Ash and Pikachu together, not just Pikachu alone. I think Americans actually understand the concept of Pokémon better than the Japanese. The Japanese focus on Pikachu, but what I think is important is the human aspect--you need Ash."

The human aspect is important. The trainer aspect is important. That's the only thing that this point establishes.


When you look at Pokémon's representation in Super Smash Bros, what do you see? Pokémon fighting. Poké balls releasing Pokémon to attack. Battling. Is that all there is to the series? Whatever happened to the collection portion of the game? You know, going around and capturing pokémon in poké balls? The capturing and collecting portion of the games are very important as well, and even contribute to the battling portion. It's important to have some sort of representation for the collecting part of the game, or the concept isn't conveyed in its entirety. A trainer, one of the people who go around and catch the pokémon, would make an excellent representative of this part of the gameplay, and could utilize their various pokémon capturing equipment in their moveset.


Assuming that, to some degree, you agree with the previous points, this leaves us with an important problem: Which trainer do we use? I personally think we should use Red. Red is the original protagonist of the series, and is the only recurring protagonist, giving him credentials similar to Marth. Red appears in each of the first three generations and in about half of the games in the series, his roles including boss appearances and protagonist roles. Red isn't just confined to the games either. Red is set to appear as a trainer figure in the Pokémon Trading Figure Game that will be released later this year. Red, or at least characters very similar to him, have appeared as the protagonists of at least five different manga in Japan. He was recreated in full 3D just for a Pokémon Battle Revolution trailer. He didn't even appear in the game, but they still took the time to make him 3D. After playing many significant roles in-game and appearing in other media in various forms, I think Red has done enough to garner a spot in SSB on his own, even disregarding the previous points.



...And I'm not just supporting an impossible character here. I have reasons and evidence to show that Red's chances are greater than most people would expect, if even just a little.

You may not know this, but Sakurai actually conducted a poll for possible Super Smash Bros Melee characters. He asked Japanese fans to submit their most wanted characters, and the characters were ranked according to the votes they recieved. Coming in at twelfth place was "Satoshi(the protagonist)" from the Pokémon series. Not only did Red score such a high position on this poll, but he was voted in higher characters like Meta-Knight, who's confirmed, and Diddy, who is considered a shoo-in. It's interesting to note that nearly all of the characters above Red on the poll appeared in Super Smash Bros in some form, and nearly none of those below him did. It's not so incredible that Sakurai might pick back up where he left off, but at the very least, he has the idea of Red's appearance to consider.

Also, in the more recent poll, there was a submission for Steven Stone, a powerful trainer from third generation. While we have absolutely no idea why he chose this subission out of all of the others, we do know that Sakurai is at least aware that there is some desire for a trainer's appearance. With the idea of Red on the backburner... well, I can't make assumptions. Let's just say that there's a greater than expected chance for Red's appearance in SSB in some form.

You can believe what you want given this information, just try not to count Red out so early as people have in the past.

Sources:
Satoshi Tajiri Interview
Sakurai's Super Smash Bros. Melee Poll
SamuraiPanda's Translation of the Brawl Poll






Common Counters

Alright, I'm sure that if you've read my post so far, you've probably got a few issues with it. No logic is perfect, and mine certainly isn't, so I've tried to take into account some of the major complaints that I've heard about Red's appearance in SSB. If you're point isn't mentioned here, or you feel that it wasn't sufficiently refuted, feel free to bring it up. Anyways, on to the counters...



Argument: The game is called "Pokémon", not "Trainers".

Counter: Having the game named after them does not automatically get any pokémon in over Red. That's like putting a Metroid in over Samus, or putting a Pikmin in before Captain Olimar. The name of a game does not necessarily determine the significance of the characters. Trainers are important to the Pokémon series even if the series isn't named for them.



Argument: Red would have no moves.

Counter: Red could very easily have moves. Red has two large pools of moves from which to draw: pokémon that he could use, and items that he could use. All of his items could be given a SSB function, and Red could also use various pokémon for attacks for some moves. For a more in depth explanation, take a look at the 'Moveset' section.



Argument: Red isn't a character. He's an avatar of the player, a vessel.

Counter: If Red isn't really a character, then who is that trainer I'm battling at the end of Pokémon Gold? Who's that trainer who shows up at the end of Pokémon Stadium 2? Who is this person named Red that Nintendo made a figure of for the Nintendo trading figure game? Who is that guy at the beginning of the Pokémon Battle Revolution trailer? As of late there has been far too much evidence of Nintendo treating Red as a character for him to be any sort of vessel. Sure, he doesn't exactly have a vibrant and noticable personality, but it's a very common trait of Nintendo RPG protagonists to have rather vague personalities and backstories to help the player get into the game.



Argument: Red could have been replaced with any other trainer and the game would have worked the same way.

Counter: Funny thing is, this is actually pointless argument to make. If another trainer had been substituted for Red, then they would be Red, they'd be the original protagonist, and they'd be the one we're debating in SSB. This is the equivilent of saying that Marth could have been replaced with any swordsman, or that Ness could have been replaced with any kid. You're trying to argue using a hypothetical situation as evidence, which isn't really something you should do if you can avoid it.



Argument: Red just doesn't fight in general. He hides behind his pokémon.

Counter: Pokémon may do the fighting in the Pokémon games, but Red has actual merits to be in Super Smash Bros. Pokémon, for the most part, don't, and actual importance should take precedence over fighting experience. Red is a recurring protagonist and boss character, not to mention the first protagonist. He appears in quite a few other media as well, appearing in the Pokémon Trading Figure Game and having the main characters of five mangas directly based on him.

Well, I'm not sure if you've ever played a pokémon game, but, in most of the games in the series, there's a place called the "Safari Zone". In the Safari Zone, trainers are forbidden to bring their pokémon, and Red, in this park, fights pokémon all on his own. Red fought using rocks, bait, and Safari Balls in the Safari Zone, meaning that Red has actually done more actual in-game fighting than have several characters in Super Smash Bros Melee.



Argument: Pokémon should be represented by Pokémon. Trainers have never been in SSB before. They just wouldn't work.

Counter: Trainers have never been in before, but that doesn't mean they shouldn't. Trainers are important to the Pokémon series, even if not as important as Pokémon themselves. Trainers are the driving force behind the story of the game, they're the villains and heroes and allies. Trainers are essential to the very concept of the game: collecting and training monsters to battle. Anyone can work in Super Smash Bros, and trainers certainly aren't the most difficult to work in.



Argument: Red isn't popular.

Counter: I'd like to quote Sakurai as he said, "Adding only popular characters doesn't get me excited." Sakurai wants to add lesser known and less popular characters in Super Smash Bros Brawl, and Red, being a not-so-popular character who has a lot of significance to balance it out, would make a fine candidate.






Red's Appearances


Although Red is not particularly well-known or popular, he is, in fact, a recurring character throughout most of the pokemon series. Red appears in 9 of the currently released 18 games in the main series, which is half of the series, and more than any other character, save for Professor Oak. Red is also a protagonist in the series which makes his recurrence even more unique. No other protagonist has ever appeared outside of their debut games. Not only this, but Red is frequently featured in other media as well. Red, or a character that is directly based on him, is the main character of two sagas of "Pokemon Special", a popular Pokemon manga in Japan. All of the main characters of the other manga series are also based on Red, as is the main character of the anime, Ash. Red is also going to be making an appearance in the upcoming Pokemon Trading Figure Game as a common trainer figure. The following is a list of Red's appearances and their significance:



Pokémon Red & Blue(Gameboy/May '98)


Pokémon Red and Blue was Red's first appearance. Red was the protagonist of this first game in the series, the game that turned the series into a worldwide success. All other protagonists in all other media were based on Red's initial appearance, and their adventures were based on his. Being the first protagonist of the series is a rather important role.



Pokémon Yellow(Gameboy Color/Oct '99)


Pokémon Yellow was another appearance as a protagonist, but it's basically the same one. Pokémon Yellow deviated slightly from Pokémon Red & Blue's storyline, including more elements from the show, and even revising Red's appearance to make him appear just a bit more similar to his anime counterpart.





Pokémon Gold & Silver(Gameboy Color/Oct '00)


Pokémon Gold and Silver is the first time that a protagonist from the pokémon series has ever reappeared in later games, though it would not be the last. Red was that protagonist. In Pokémon Gold and Silver, Red serves as the true final boss. After the player defeats the Elite Four and collects all 16 badges, they are able to find and challenge Red at Mount Silver for a battle, in whiich Red uses the highest-leveled party any opponent has ever had in the series.





Pokémon Crystal(Gameboy Color/July '01)


There wasn't much of an addition to Red's role in Pokémon Crystal, but, as in Pokémon Gold and Silver, Red appears as the final trainer battle in the game, and remains one of the toughest opponents in the series.





Pokémon Stadium 2(Nintendo 64/March '01)
(Screenshot Unavailable)

In Pokémon Stadium 2, Red appears as a final boss yet again. After fighting your way through both the Johto and Kanto Gym Leader Castles, Red appears as your final opponent and uses an impressive team, consisting of several very powerful and rare pokémon.





Pokémon FireRed & Leafgreen(Gameboy Advance/Sept '04)


Pokémon FireRed and LeafGreen are remakes of the original games, Pokémon Red and Blue(Red and Green in Japan, hense Leaf"Green" ). Rather than just reuse Red's old character art, though, Ken Sugimori completely redesigned him. Red's new appearance makes him distinct from his counterparts in other media, but still resembles his original appearance. This is the first and only time in the series that a protagonist has been one in multiple generations, and marks the third consecutive generation of pokémon games in which Red makes an appearance.





Pokémon Battle Revolution(N/A)

Red doesn't actually appear in Pokémon Battle Revolution as far as anyone knows, but he was featured in the original trailer for the game, along with his female counterpart. It's not known why Red was fully animated in Wii-quality 3D simply just for short trailer, but it certainly shows that Nintendo hasn't forgotten about him.





Pokémon Trading Figure Game(N/A)

Red is going to appear as a common trainer figure in the first expansion set of the Pokémon Trading Figure Game, Next Quext. The trainer figure is essential for using trainer cards, but it doesn't seem to matter which one you use. Red is included in one of the two starter kits, called Flamethrower.





Manga
While Red in any media is fairly uncommon outside Japan, there have been several comics starring Red, or characters incredibly similar to Red. Pocket Monsters Special, Pocket Monsters Getto Da Ze, Pocket Monsters and Pocket Monsters Zensho are all examples.






Moveset


The major concern I run into when I suggest Red seems to be that people doubt his fighting ability. It is commonly suggested that Red doesn't have the potential to have any moves. This is incorrect, as Red has a bigger pool of potential moves to draw from than many possible newcomers to SSB. I think the way I'd expect Red to fight can best be explained by this short conversation in the manga:


Page scanned by nicoleb from The PokéCommunity

I really think that there are enough items in pokemon for Red to build a decent moveset around them. Red wouldn't be an incredibly powerful character, but the lack of brute force wouldn't matter. Red is equipped with high-tech gear used for controlling monsters, and he could use the same tools to manipulate his opponents. Most items may not come off as weapons at first, but then, as we've seen in past SSB games, things don't often keep their exact same function in the translation to SSB. Taking a few liberties with the properties of the items, the team at Sora could really come up with some unique attacks.


But then, why limit Red to items? Red is a pokémon trainer, afterall. This gives him a whole other pool to draw moves from, the moves of his pokémon. I'm not suggesting giving Red some sort of attack that serves the same effect as the SSB "poké ball" item. What I'm suggesting is giving Red the ability to have access to his pokemon for brief periods in order to attain certain effects. Is Red falling from the stage? Pop open a poké ball and have a pokémon use the HM move "Fly" to carry Red upwards. Red's using pokémon wouldn't be any different in practice than the special moves of any other characters.

I'm not sure if you agree with my moveset ideas or not, but here's an example moveset I made:


-Stats-
Height: 3/5
Weight: 3/5
Attack Power: 2/5
Grab Range: 5/5
Running Speed: 3/5
Vertical Jump: 4/5
Horizontal Jump: 3/5
Falling Speed: 3/5
Rolling Speed: 4/5


-Specials-
B: Poké Ball(Upon pressing B, Red quickly reaches to his belt and grabs a poké ball. He throws the ball forward as if it was a smash-throw. If the ball makes contact with an opponent, the opponent will take a small amount of damage, and will be contained within the ball. The opponent can struggle out of the ball, and they will be released much sooner if they are in mid-air. Upon being released, the opponent will be popped into the air a bit, and, they will recover all used mid-air jumps. If the ball is on the ground, it can be picked up and thrown, though, it's most useful to throw the ball into the ground or level hazards to cause damage. 3-6% )

Smash B: Trap(Red tosses a trap on the ground in front of him. Traps function somewhat like motion sensor bombs, in that they activate when someone is in the direct proximity. When the trap is stepped on, the foe will be pulled into the center of the trap and continually dealt damage until they wiggle free with the control stick. The traps only do about 2 damage per 1/2 second, and the opponent will automatically break free after 3 seconds. Red can only have one trap on the stage at a given time, and Red can be caught in his own trap. The trap has a period after hitting the ground for which it won't activate, which lasts about 1 second. The trap is randomly either a leaf, fire or bubble trap, and they all have the same effect. 2-12% )

Down B: Repel(This move involves Red reaching to his belt and producing a small can of repel which he sprays himself with. The Repel forms a fumy shield around Red for approximately 3 seconds. If an opponent makes contact with the shield, the opponent will be pushed away and into the air a bit, landing collapsed on the floor if they were on the ground. If in the air, the effect will be the same, but with the increased time to react, they will be able to jump and recover without falling, provided they were not already too far off the stage to begin with. The shield also works to reflect all physical projectiles, including any thrown items, and character's projectiles such as Yoshi's eggs or Link's arrows, but energy projectiles, such as Ness's PK Thunder or Fox's blaster, will go right through. Red can move while the shield is active, but he is unable to use attacks. There is a 20 second period Red must wait to use the move again.)

Up B: Fly(Red reaches to his belt and produces a poké ball which he immediately opens. A flying pokémon is released from the pokéball, but, as in the pokémon games, it merely appears as a silhouette and cannot be distinguished. Red grabs onto the pokémon and rides it straight upwards into the air, then downwards at a diagonal. At any point in the move, Red may grab onto a ledge and the pokémon will be returned. Contact with the pokémon will cause damage to foes, but attacking the pokémon will cause it to fail, causing Red to fall, but allowing him another chance to use the move. 5-8% )

Final Smash: Champion Finish(Red tosses a poké ball into the air and a pokémon, either Venusaur, Charizard, or Blastoise, will be released to do an attack. Each will do it's own respective "ultimate attack." Venusaur's Frenzy Plant will cover the floors of the stage in damaging vines, Charizard's Blast Burn will fire a gigantic stream of flame across the stage to damage many foes, and Blastoise's Hydro Cannon will fire many small but powerful water blasts all over the stage at random trajectories.)


-Throws-
Grab: Super Rod(Red has an extended grab using the Super Rod. Red casts when you press the Z button, and spends time afterwards reeling in the line. Unlike other extended grabs, the Super Rod cannot be used for recovery, however, it does have the ability to grab opponents after it is initially cast, if the hook makes contact with an opponent as Red reels it in.)

Grab Attack: Smack(Red smacks the opponent on the head with his fist as he holds them with his other hand.1%-3% )

U Throw: Poké Ball Toss(Red quickly captures the foe in one of his poké balls, then tosses it straight up into the air. At the apex of the throw, the foe is realeased in a random direction.5-8% )

D Throw: Safari Rock(Red pushes off his opponents with both feet, sending them skidding forwards and him slightly jumping backwards. While in the air, he throws a rock back towards his opponent. The knockback for the actual throw is fairly static, while the rock's knockback increases with damage.4%-9% )

F Throw: Pack Launch(Red slides his back pack off and smashes it into the face of his opponent, sending them flying forwards..6-8% )

B Throw: Escape Rope(Red wraps an escape rope around his foe and tosses them forwards. when they reach the end of the rope, Red pulls on it hard, swinging them back around and sending them spinning in the opposite direction.5-8% )


-Regular Attacks-
(Moves are only named for pokémon moves. None actually involve pokémon. I just don't have any creativity when it comes to move names.)
A: Punch(2-3% )

A-2: Punch(2-3% )

A-3: Uppercut(An uppercut. Upward knockback.3-4% )

Dash A: Running Shoes(Red starts using his running shoes and dashes really fast for a second to bowl over enemies. Knocks them back/up.4-7% )

U Tilt: False Swipe(Red punches upward. Minimal upward knockback.3-7% )

D Tilt: Dig(Red crouches(or is already crouching) and punches across the ground. Small forward/upward knockback.2-5% )

F Tilt: Rolling Kick(A sort of forward stomp; Red pulls up his foot and jams his foot forward.4-8% )

U Smash: Skull bash(Red jams his head upward to headbutt his enemy straight up.10-20% )

D Smash: Bag Sweep(A sweep attack with Red's back pack. up/back knockback.9-16% )

F Smash: Pack Smack(Red pulls off his pack and swings it in front of him, then quickly replaces it. Strong horizontal knockback.8-20% )

N Air: Jump Kick(Kicks and spins.4-9% )

U Air: Sonic Boom(Red turns upside down and stomps upward.6-12% )

D Air: Sky Attack(Red winds up and punches downward causing him to flip. If Red hits an opponent at the very beginning of the punch, it's a meteor smash.5-9% )

F Air: Aerial Ace(A forward mid-air punch. Knocks the opponent down and forward .6-8% )

B Air: Double Kick(Turns and does a series of two kicks. Low knockback for the first hit, mid knockback for the second one.3-5% each hit )

Stand up attack: Spikes(Red kicks up his feet to attack, then uses them to right himself.2-3% )

Ledge attack 1 (Under 100% damage): Slam (Red pulls himself up into the air then kicks hard, then lands on the stage.2-4% )

Ledge attack 2 (Over 100% damage): Double Edge(Red pulls himself up into a shoulder ramming attack.1-3% )


-Additional Info-
Taunt-Red tips his hat towards the camera

Unlock-Assuming Red is not playable from the start, unlocking Red would either involve a pokémon related task, such as seeing every non-special pokémon in a poké ball, or a special objective in Adventure mode, such as defeating the entire pokémon segment using poké balls, leading to an optional boss fight.

Costume


Kirby hat- When sucked in by Kirby, Kirby will gain Red's hat and some brown hair. He will also gain the Poké Ball ability for B.

Victory Poses
Victory Pose 1: Red tips his hat towards the screen, as he does in his taunt. It's an allusion to his appearance in the trailer for Pokémon Battle Revolution.
Victory Pose 2: Red stands with his right hand extended to the side, holding a poke ball. He tosses it into air and catches it in his hand, then looks at the camera, a reference to the opening sequence of Pokémon Red.
Victory Pose 3: Red pumps his fist forward, and pulls it back. His stance would resemble his battle sprite from Pokémon FireRed while he had his fist extended.

Loss Pose- Red "whites out." In essence, Red can be seen standing with his slumped down as if he were unconscious.

Entrance- A flying pokémon swoops by and Red jumps off its back, landing on the stage. Red then holds up a poké ball that the pokémon returns to.






Relevant Links


Red's Bulbapedia Page
A profile for Red on the Nintendo Database
Pokémon Gold's Final Battle: Red
Pokémon Battle Revolution Trailer: Red in full 3D
Fake Red in SSBB Trailer
 

Pieman0920

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Red is a bit of a stretch to be in, that's for sure, but if he was in, he should play like the summoner characters of JUS. Each of his attacks would automatically cause a specific Pokemon to do a regular attack. For example, his forward A would cause a Squirtle to just pop forward with a skull bash, while his smash A would cause a Tauros to charge out, but not so far that it would be like a special attack. (I’d guess his standard A would just be his own punch) For his special attacks the Pokemon would perform more complex, damaging, or wider ranged moves.

Of course the above post looks cool also, but I'd prefer if his attacks involved more of the Pokemon he trains. :O
 
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