Pokemon Trainer: an In-Depth Analysis & Guide

[Card]

This just in...

User: P. Trainer's Pokemon Run Speeds
Topic: YouTube Video showcasing the run speeds.
Thread: http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=CNdLECu0Zh4
Note: Surprisingly... Charizard runs faster than Ivysaur who runs faster than Squirtle. This doesn't mean that Squirtle is the slowest however. Squirtle has the quickest dash-turn around, as well as jump which makes him all around the fastest. But in terms of pure run-speed... Charizard is as fast as Pikachu!


For those who are curious;

Run SpeedIn order from Fastest to Slowest:
Sonic <-- well thats a big shocker.
Captain Falcon
Fox
Zero Suit Samus / Sheik
Metaknight
Pikachu / Charizard
Marth / Diddy
Yoshi
Toon Link / Donkey Kong
Pit
Mr. Game & Watch
Lucas / R.O.B. / Ivysaur / Mario / Bowser
Samus
Lucario / Falco
Pikmin & Olimar / Ness / Wolf / Ice Climbers
Ike / Squirtle / Kirby
Wario / Peach / Snake / Luigi / Link
Zelda / King Dedede
Ganondorf
Jigglypuff


I seriously did not notice just how fast Charizard runs... well Charizard hovers slightly off the ground... so I guess it makes sense. This just improves his Dashing U-Smash game even more, since he really is one of the faster run-speed characters in the game. P. Trainers rejoice!

 

[Helios42]

Lol, cool. Charzard runs the fastest.
That just makes me look forward to playing with him more.

 

[squiser]

Nice job on the update. I've been playing PT for a good part of the last two days, and there's not much I can add. A few things I've noticed though... a ledge-hopped b-air is a good way to edgeguard with Squirtle - similar to the way Fox and Doc did in Melee. Ivysaur's n-air can combo into a grab at low percents, which can then combo into u-air juggling, or whatever else.

Feel free to tell me I'm wrong >_> I'm writing this from memory of last night and I probably haven't spent as much time as others have with PT, so...

 

[Chaotic Yoshi]

Just copied this from the ivysaur thread...

I guess more indirect advice to not get gimped as ivysaur is not to screw around on the sides of the stage. Try to hold your ground in the center so your less likely to be gimped. Kinda like playing falcon in melee, don't be dumb and risk getting off the stage cause your easily edgeguarded.

Also to compliment that strategy, both falcon(melee) and ivysaur can kill well from the center off the stage without need to perform gimp edgeguards and such. By all means you can do out there and fool around, or even if you know its safe, this is just a general strategy.

Ivysaur also has a really nice projectile to abuse from the center, although it can't compete with real projectile based characters. Also counterpick stages that dont have ledges, or some kind of saviour platform (mario circuit, yoshi's, smashville).

 

[Helios42]

Ugh, I'm starting to get pissed of at all the people thinking they can main just one...
The whole benifit of pt is being able to adapt!

 

[Takumaru]

Well it's inevitable that many people will prefer one over the other two and play that one more. Who are we to define how a character should or shouldn't be at this point in the game when most people haven't even played it?

EDIT: err... sorry what I ment was that it's too soon to expect people to be able to handle all 3 pokemon with the same ability. They all play very differently form my experience, the only one I could handle well was ivysaur.

 

[Rarzy]

i've got a question about the stamina. it seems that either i don't quite understand how it's written or it's somewhat condradictory of itself:

"For example: Let’s say I do a 4:00 minute timed match and send in Squirtle. If I stand completely still, at exactly the 2:00 minute mark Squirtle will show signs of fatigue. Restart the match with the same rules but this time make Squirtle perform 20 Smash attacks in a row (which according to my data would be -20 seconds to Squirtles Stamina). At exactly the 2:20 minute mark, Squirtle will show signs of fatigue."

are you saying that for each move you get +1 second to the timer or -1 to the timer? are you gaining a second of stamina for the pokemon or losing one? you said that doing 20 smash attacks would be -20 seconds, as in losing 20 second to the timer. yet for the total you put 2:20, which to me sounds more like you'd be gaining 20 seconds. kinda confusing. so in short, we we gaining seconds or losing seconds for attacking, etc? it be cooler to gain seconds, that way you can keep a certain one in longer. thanks.

 

[Rarzy]

double post for crappy internets

 

[Flash 327]

double post for crappy internets

wow i didnt know that thanks.

 

[Flash 327]

This just in...

User: P. Trainer's Pokemon Run Speeds
Topic: YouTube Video showcasing the run speeds.
Thread: http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=CNdLECu0Zh4
Note: Surprisingly... Charizard runs faster than Ivysaur who runs faster than Squirtle. This doesn't mean that Squirtle is the slowest however. Squirtle has the quickest dash-turn around, as well as jump which makes him all around the fastest. But in terms of pure run-speed... Charizard is as fast as Pikachu!


For those who are curious;

Run SpeedIn order from Fastest to Slowest:
Sonic <-- well thats a big shocker.
Captain Falcon
Fox
Zero Suit Samus / Sheik
Metaknight
Pikachu / Charizard
Marth / Diddy
Yoshi
Toon Link / Donkey Kong
Pit
Mr. Game & Watch
Lucas / R.O.B. / Ivysaur / Mario / Bowser
Samus
Lucario / Falco
Pikmin & Olimar / Ness / Wolf / Ice Climbers
Ike / Squirtle / Kirby
Wario / Peach / Snake / Luigi / Link
Zelda / King Dedede
Ganondorf
Jigglypuff


I seriously did not notice just how fast Charizard runs... well Charizard hovers slightly off the ground... so I guess it makes sense. This just improves his Dashing U-Smash game even more, since he really is one of the faster run-speed characters in the game. P. Trainers rejoice!

Thanks, i didnt know that Charzard could run that fast.

 

[Helios42]

Very true. I think everyone will have a different playstyle, and it will be impossible to make everyone play with all the pokemon.

I was just expressling my opinion that, from what I have learned about him, pt works best when you use them all. I believe that Sakuri's intintion with pt was to have everyone play as pt, not as one of the pokemon. Otherwise, we wouldn't have stamina/fatigue. As a person who plays pokemon, I like how pt captures the essence of the game, and when I see people want to play as only one, I think that they are missing the point. And, as card has pointed out, they really do work best when you use them all (and Card does have the game)

I understand that it's harder to learn to play 3 movesets instead of just one. Maybe people, once they have time to master them all, will play as all three. But, as of now, it doesn't seem to be headed that way. I have seen time and time again that:

1)People decide a character isn't good, or that they don't like it (in this case, one of the pokemon)
2)People stop playing as that character, because they don't like it
3)People start exagerating how bad the character is

Without outside intervention, they will never naturally play as that character. So, as of now, people will stay playing who they like.

I am planing on learning how to use all 3. If any person doesn't want to, I won't force them to use 3.

 

[Card]

i've got a question about the stamina. it seems that either i don't quite understand how it's written or it's somewhat condradictory of itself:

"For example: Let’s say I do a 4:00 minute timed match and send in Squirtle. If I stand completely still, at exactly the 2:00 minute mark Squirtle will show signs of fatigue. Restart the match with the same rules but this time make Squirtle perform 20 Smash attacks in a row (which according to my data would be -20 seconds to Squirtles Stamina). At exactly the 2:20 minute mark, Squirtle will show signs of fatigue."

are you saying that for each move you get +1 second to the timer or -1 to the timer? are you gaining a second of stamina for the pokemon or losing one? you said that doing 20 smash attacks would be -20 seconds, as in losing 20 second to the timer. yet for the total you put 2:20, which to me sounds more like you'd be gaining 20 seconds. kinda confusing. so in short, we we gaining seconds or losing seconds for attacking, etc? it be cooler to gain seconds, that way you can keep a certain one in longer. thanks.

the match timer (at the top-right corner) would be at 2:20... thus meaning the Pokemon would become Fatigued after 1:40 minutes since the match begun (which was at 4:00)

4:00 minus 2:00 (Default Stamina) = 2:00 left on the timer
4:00 minus 1:40 (20 Smash Attacks which is -20 seconds) = 2:20 left on the timer

hopefully that makes sense.
You lose a second of your Pokemon's 2 minute timer every time you do an attack.

Edit: I'm gonna reword it since you aren't the first one to get confused by it...

Edit 2: reworded it... let me know if it makes more sense now.

For example: Let’s say I do a 5:00 minute timed match and send in Squirtle. If I stand completely still, when the match timer reaches exactly 3:00 minutes (thus 2:00 minutes have passed), Squirtle will show signs of fatigue. Restart the match with the same rules but this time make Squirtle perform 20 Smash attacks in a row (which according to my data would be -20 seconds to Squirtles Stamina). When the match timer reaches exactly 3:20 minutes (thus 1:40 minutes have passed), Squirtle will show signs of fatigue.

 

[infernovia]

are you saying that for each move you get +1 second to the timer or -1 to the timer? are you gaining a second of stamina for the pokemon or losing one? you said that doing 20 smash attacks would be -20 seconds, as in losing 20 second to the timer. yet for the total you put 2:20, which to me sounds more like you'd be gaining 20 seconds. kinda confusing. so in short, we we gaining seconds or losing seconds for attacking, etc? it be cooler to gain seconds, that way you can keep a certain one in longer. thanks.

Edit: beaten.

 

[Rarzy]

thanks, i get it now. i didn't realized you were using a 4:00 timer, so i gots confused.

 

[JiangWei23]

Hi, longtime lurker, first time poster.

Question: When one of the Pokemon you're playing as gets KOed, does PT automatically send in the next Pokemon in the chain instead of respawning with the Pokemon you were just playing as? That's what it looks like to me from watching some videos.

Thanks!

 

[Netto-kun]

Hi, longtime lurker, first time poster.

Question: When one of the Pokemon you're playing as gets KOed, does PT automatically send in the next Pokemon in the chain instead of respawning with the Pokemon you were just playing as? That's what it looks like to me from watching some videos.

Thanks!

Yes. Squirtle gets KOed , Pokémon Trainer will send out Ivysaur, and so on.

One minor thing regarding Charizard's Flamethrower that I didn't notice in the analysis/guide. You can slightly "direct" the Flamethrower by tilting up/down on the control stick.

 

[Flash 327]

To JiangWei23 The P. Trainer sends out the next pokemon in line, they dont respawn or aneything.

 

[RT]

Wow, this thread really impresses me. Card should get a medal or cookie...or something. O_O

 

[Elliot Gale]

I've heard that Ivy's Up-B while off the stage is quite unexpectedly long. Just how long?

 

[Anth0ny]

What an awesome post. Thank you very much. I'll definetely refer to it when I start to use PT!

 

[technomancer]

I'm thinking F-air to falling water gun on faster falling characters?

How about potential mid-combo switches? I think Squirtle to Ivysaur would be a good setup.

 

[BiskeTheBeast]

excelent post, i always have the idea of using the 3 pkmns ^^

thx OP

i cant really wait to play with this unique character

 

[Card]

Attention:

Right now I am trying to do a test to show how far Ivysaur's Vine-Whip can reach the edge (since it's much further than most people would expect).

I am looking for a picture of Smash Ville or Battlefield Level showing as much as possible of the side of the stage. (Either side will do). The picture needs to be just slightly good quality, nothing high-quality is needed (although high-quality images are welcomed!)

The images on the Dojo of the stages show nothing off the side of the stage, so they can barely be used. Either that, or the images show the side of the stage but it's with a debug camera so they can put it wherever they want, and I can't get it to get that way. I also require that the images aren't angled in any way, so that I can show exactly how far Ivysaur's vine-whip would reach in an actual match.

Help me out!

 

[Card]

Nevermind lol... I just decided to use a "You Must Recover" picture and compared it with my in-game shots as close as I could. Here is the update;

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I have done some testing, and this is approximately the radius which I found where Vine-Whip will Auto-Sweetspot the Edge.

As you can see, the radius is quite large. The red area (if you haven't figured it out) is the area where when you use Ivysaur's Up+B it will extend the vine directly onto the edge (Yellow spot) and allow you to latch on. If you use Up+B anywhere outside of the red area, Ivysaur will just perform a regular Aerial Up+B and then begin to free fall to her doom. It is possible to grab onto the ledge while free falling though, so it's possible to use an aerial Up+B, miss the ledge, and grab it as you fall towards it.

As you can see, It is possible to tether recovery from ABOVE the edge, and BELOW the stage. Using Up+B in an area which isn't red below the stage can be quite tricky though. If you aren't in the correct area, you'll just do an aerial Up+B which will pass through the stage and just damage the opponent if they are standing there. You also need to be careful doing an Up+B above the stage, because it's possible to accidentally miss the sweetspot and just free-fall towards the ledge, and your opponent will get a free attack.

Another interesting thing I found about this Tether Recovery; I call it Anti-Tether Stalling.
Ivysaur can only grab an edge 3 times with Vine-Whip. Any time she tries to vine whip an edge a 4th+ time, the Vine will extend, touch the edge, but then deflect off leaving Ivysaur to free fall once again. This mechanic applies to ALL Tether Recoveries in the game, and I assume it was put in place because Tether recoveries grab the ledge extremely fast, and it causes players to stall the game with invincibility frames. Luckily though, If you land anywhere on the stage, the 3-limit counter will reset back to 0, and you may vine-whip the edge another 3 times. Nothing to really complain about, since this actually HELPS the game and doesn't allow lamers to just stall the edge.

Note: Ivysaur cannot tether the edge with her grab. Even though many characters can grab the edge using their long-range grabs (Lucas, Link, Toon Link, etc..) Ivysaur cannot. Either way it would essentially be the same thing as her Up+B so it makes sense as to why she cannot.




All of this was added to the guide

PS: The radius of the tether in my screenshot is an APPROXIMATE. If anything though, its possible that its even larger than what I depicted.

 

[Chaotic Yoshi]

You sir, are a saint.

Assuming you can actually vine whip the edgehogger and grab the ledge after...

Since you can grab the ledge in this entire radius, can you also smack the person edgehogging you from anywhere in the radius?

 

[Ryuutakeshi]

I was told about this over on BC. I gotta tell you, great job. this is really nice stuff.

 

[infernovia]

Yeah, I noticed that a lot of people wait until they are below the ledge when tethering which ultimately got them edgehogged. This should help Ivysaur a bit, thank you for conforming my suspicion about the above the ledge tethering.

And really, thanks for all the time you put into this.

 

[Card]

You sir, are a saint.

Assuming you can actually vine whip the edgehogger and grab the ledge after...

Since you can grab the ledge in this entire radius, can you also smack the person edgehogging you from anywhere in the radius?

Thanks for the compliment


But you bring up a very good point that I forgot to mention. It sort of slipped my mind, since it becomes fairly obvious once you actually get your hands on the game. I'll explain in anyways since it's actually pretty important now that I think about it...


Tether Recovery Versions
Every Tether recovery in the game, in actuality, has 2 different versions of the same move. For the sake of simplicity and explanation, we'll call these 2 versions "Sweetspotted Tether" and "Tether Attack". They are two slightly different attacks, which have different properties and uses.

Tether Attack: This is when you are standing on the ground (or in the air) and you use a Tether ability (Up+B for Ivysaur) when there are NO nearby Edges to latch onto. In this case, Ivysaur will stretch out vines at a 45 degree angle and slap the air with a bright green burst at the tip of her vines. This move deals damage and knock-back (especially when sweet spotted). The vines always have a set distance and radius, and when used in the air leave Ivysaur in a free-falling state (Cannot do anything until landing on the ground). This move CANNOT Grab the edge.

Sweetspotted Tether: This is when you are in the air and you use a Tether ability (Up+B for Ivysaur) when you are NEAR a free edge that you can latch onto (basically the red radius in the screenshot above). Now the reason I underline the word free, is because the edge CANNOT be taken by another character. This is one of the major problems with Tether recoveries. If another player is hanging on the edge (invincible or not) Ivysaur will always perform an aerial Tether Attack in the direction performed, as opposed to the Sweetspotted Tether. The Sweetspotted Tether has a MUCH longer range than the Tether Attack, and if you are in the proper range it will automatically and (near) instantaneously latch onto the ledge. This version also does NO DAMAGE to your opponent.

Often times though it's possible to wall-spike an opponent who incorrectly times their edge-hog. I've had situations where my opponent avoided my Razor Leaf anti-edge, and then when they thought they had me beat, I would hit Up+B and because he was on the edge it would do a Tether Attack and them WHAM! He got smacked with my Tether Attack and wall-spiked to death. Unfortunately for me though, even though my vines hit the edge, because it was a Tether Attack and not a Sweetspotted Tether, I just fell to my doom shortly afterwards


I hope this makes it much clearer. It really is simple once you get to play the game.

 

[Knyaguy]

Man Ivysaurs tether recovery is amazing! This is making the choice of my main even harder!

 

[Emir Kirena]

Hey Card, I sent you a PM regarding a small detail I'd like you to address. Could you please check it?

 

[Card]

Ok umm...

Emir Kirena asked about how Elemental Resistances/Weaknesses come into play in regards to KNOCKBACK. I already tested how Elemental attacks don't do any more or less damage depending on which Pokemon is hit by it (Ex: Pikachu's Thunder trail always does 10%, Mario Fireball always does 5% (I think it was that))

But Emir asked me to test KNOCKBACK as opposed to DAMAGE...

Well I tried it out and... euh I'm still fairly confused.
It seems like Elemental Weakness actually DOES come into play with Knockback.

Pokemon Type Charting:
Squirtle (Water)
2x: Grass, Electric
1x: Normal, Fighting, Flying, Poison, Ground, Rock, Bug, Ghost, Psychic, Dragon, Dark
1/2x: Steel, Fire, Water, Ice

Ivysaur (Grass / Poison)
2x: Flying, Fire, Psychic, Ice
1x: Normal, Poison, Ground, Rock, Bug, Ghost, Steel, Dragon, Dark
1/2x: Fighting, Water, Electric
1/4x: Grass

Charizard (Fire / Flying)
4x: Rock
2x: Water, Electric
1x: Normal, Flying, Poison, Ghost, Psychic, Ice, Dragon, Dark
1/2x: Fighting, Steel, Fire
1/4x: Bug, Grass
Immune: Ground



Here is some of test data;
Fire Test 1:
275% Squirtle + PK Fire (Lucas) = Squirtle Survives
275% Ivysaur + PK Fire (Lucas) = Ivysaur Dies
275% Charizard + PK Fire (Lucas) = Charizard Survives (But is that because he is heavy or because he is resistant?)
Results: Ivysaur dies quicker than Squirtle, even though he is heavier. Charizard survives, but unsure whether it is because he is the heaviest or because he is resistant.

Fire Test 2:
100% Squirtle + Mario Uncharged F-Smash Sweetspot (Fire) = Squirtle Survive
100% Ivysaur + Mario Uncharged F-Smash Sweetspot (Fire) = Ivysaur Death
100% Charizard + Mario Uncharged F-Smash Sweetspot (Fire) = Charizard Survive
Results: Ivysaur seems to gain more knockback due to fire, and once again we cannot tell if Charizard survives because of his weight or his resistance.

Fire Test 3:
115% Squirtle + Olimar Red Pikmin (Flower) F-Smash = Squirtle Survive
115% Ivysaur + Olimar Red Pikmin (Flower) F-Smash = Ivysaur Death
115% Charizard + Olimar Red Pikmin (Flower) F-Smash = Charizard Survive
Results: Once again, Ivysaur dies before Squirtle to a fire based attack.

Water Test 1:
100% Squirtle + Full-Charge F.L.U.D.D = Squirtle is pushed from center to edge of Final Destination
100% Ivysaur + Full-Charge F.L.U.D.D = Ivysaur is pushed from center to edge of Final Destination
100% Charizard + Full-Charge F.L.U.D.D = Charizard is pushed from center to edge of Final Destination
Results: No one is weak/resistant to Water, they all get pushed the same distance.

Water Test 2:
90% Squirtle + Squirtle Up-Smash = Squirtle Death
90% Ivysaur + Squirtle Up-Smash = Ivysaur Survive
90% Charizard + Squirtle Up-Smash = Charizard Death
Results: Now things are getting interesting. Charizard dies to a Water based attack and Ivysaur survives. It looks like Charizard does get more knockback by water-based attacks.

Electricity Test 1:
145% Squirtle + Pikachu Thunder (while standing on platform below) = Squirtle Death
145% Ivysaur + Pikachu Thunder (while standing on platform below) = Ivysaur barely survive
145% Charizard + Pikachu Thunder (while standing on platform below) = Charizard barely survive
Results: Once again, Squirtle does die quicker but is that not because he is lighter? Inconclusive

Electricity Test 2:
130% Squirtle + Olimar Yellow Pikmin (Flower) F-Smash = Squirtle Death
130% Ivysaur + Olimar Yellow Pikmin (Flower) F-Smash = Ivysaur Survive
130% Charizard + Olimar Yellow Pikmin (Flower) F-Smash = Charizard Survive
Results: Squirtle dies the fastest, but once again is that because he is the lightest?

Ice Test 1:
180% Squirtle + PK Freeze (Full Charge) = Squirtle Death
180% Ivysaur + PK Freeze (Full Charge) = Ivysaur Survive
180% Charizard + PK Freeze (Full Charge) = Charizard Survive
Results: What the heck? Ivysaur is supposed to be weak to ICE, yet Squirtle dies first.

Psychic Test 1
115% Squirtle + Ness B-Throw (Psychic Throw) = Squirtle Death
115% Ivysaur + Ness B-Throw (Psychic Throw) = Ivysaur Survive
115% Charizard + Ness B-Throw (Psychic Throw) = Charizard Survive
Results: Once again, Ivysaur who should be weak to Psychic based attacks survives before Squirtle.


I guess I could try some more tests... got any suggestions?

 

[Emir Kirena]

Would Zelda's Lightning Kicks count as Magic or Lightning for Pokemon effects? Or is that move just simply too powerful to test accurately?

 

[Card]

Would Zelda's Lightning Kicks count as Magic or Lightning for Pokemon effects? Or is that move just simply too powerful to test accurately?

I have uhh.. no idea...

I just know it is difficult to test whether or not Squirtle gets more knockback because he might just die because he is the Lightest of the Three, not necessarily because of Elemental Weakness.

It's hard to tell...

 

[Elliot Gale]

Very hard to tell. But fire test 2 and water test 2 make me think this may just be a factor, though perhaps not a major one. It may not even consider Ivy and Zard's second types if it does exist.

 

[Fawriel]

That is rather worrying for poor Ivysaur. After all, there are quite a few fire-based attacks...
Try the Firefox/bird and Falcon's Fsmash?

 

[Elliot Gale]

Pikachu's Fsmash is another elec.

Perhaps Zard's rock smash too? Just note that it's naturally a fighting move in-game, but Brawl may have changed that...

 

[MysticKenji]

Ivy ^B differences

Cool and thanks

Elements and knockback

...
Just when I thought this game couldn't get any weirder...
I think the game only considers the Fire, Water and Grass elements, which cause the inconclusive results.

 

[JiangWei23]

But that's odd...I thought I heard somewhere that despite looks, Ivysaur was lighter than Squirtle? It certainly would explain in some areas why Ivysaur died when Squirtle didn't...but then the experiments showed Squirtle dying when Ivysaur didn't, which wouldn't make sense if Ivysaur was lighter than Squirtle.

I'm confused.

 

[Card]

But that's odd...I thought I heard somewhere that despite looks, Ivysaur was lighter than Squirtle? It certainly would explain in some areas why Ivysaur died when Squirtle didn't...but then the experiments showed Squirtle dying when Ivysaur didn't, which wouldn't make sense if Ivysaur was lighter than Squirtle.

I'm confused.

I know exactly where your confusion is coming from;

An article was written in Famitsu Magazine near the time of release. Famitsu did tests with all the known starter characters to show their "weight". They would see at what % it took Mario's F-Smash to K.O the character, and compare their weights that way. On this chart it listed Squirtle as being heavier than Ivysaur.

Now here is where the tricky part comes into play. We've recently found out that Elemental Attacks play a role in knock-back against a character. Read this thread; http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=145980
What is special about Mario's F-Smash is that it is indeed a Fire-based attack. It just so happens that Ivysaur is weak to the Fire Element. I'm sure you've figured it out already, but that is the reason that Ivysaur was shown to be lighter weight than Squirtle was simply because they were doing the entire test with a Fire Based attack.

As such, it is safe to conclude that Famitsu failed to pay attention to this detail in their write up.

Case Closed.

Squirtle is the lightest
Ivysaur is middle-weight
Charizard is heavy-weight

 

[Ken34]

good job on the guide, i plan to main p.trainer as a secondary, i love charizard.