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Pokemon Trainer: an In-Depth Analysis & Guide

sonic smash down

Smash Lord
Joined
Oct 7, 2007
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somewhere in the smash community
k i thought about it. hmm letz see what i can come up with. well first if you havent already checked this (havent read guide all the way though yet) but does it say that charizard getz less damage when fire attacks hit like bowser's or squirtle when water attacks hit?

is there slow movement after the pokemon makes an attack and then you try to do switch them? (i mean immeaditaly after the move)

does the attacks of the pokemon have any affect on the stamina (like overuse of attack causes the time limit to go down)

and how strong is the pokemon after the stanima effect has taken place.

if you already answered them in your guide dont worry about it. (havent read it all the way thourgh yet)
 

TenshiOni

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Aug 2, 2007
Messages
90
Location
Miami, FL
Fantastic guide.

Well-written, easy to read, and very thorough. AAA+ thread. Thanks for writing this.

I plan on maining the Pokemon Trainer when I get the game and I'm planning on studying this heavily the day before.

And btw, not sure about Ivysaur, but I know Squirtle is saying his name in his taunt. "Zen-zeni!" if memory serves correct. Recall, as you probably already know, his Japanese name is "Zenigame."
 

Water

Smash Rookie
Joined
Jan 1, 2008
Messages
11
thank you for all the information on my new main I only hope that nothing changes for the american version.
 

Card

Smash Lord
Joined
Sep 19, 2001
Messages
1,237
Location
Montreal, Quebec, Canada
k i thought about it. hmm letz see what i can come up with. well first if you havent already checked this (havent read guide all the way though yet) but does it say that charizard getz less damage when fire attacks hit like bowser's or squirtle when water attacks hit?

is there slow movement after the pokemon makes an attack and then you try to do switch them? (i mean immeaditaly after the move)

does the attacks of the pokemon have any affect on the stamina (like overuse of attack causes the time limit to go down)

and how strong is the pokemon after the stanima effect has taken place.

if you already answered them in your guide dont worry about it. (havent read it all the way thourgh yet)
1) I added the answer to that in my Frequently Asked Questions section.
2) You can't use Pokemon Change DURING an attack. The Pokemon needs to be in an Idle position. (That answers your question right?)
3) Yes, it does. It's all explained in the Stamina section
4) It's all explained in the damage and data sections :)

Fantastic guide.

Well-written, easy to read, and very thorough. AAA+ thread. Thanks for writing this.

I plan on maining the Pokemon Trainer when I get the game and I'm planning on studying this heavily the day before.

And btw, not sure about Ivysaur, but I know Squirtle is saying his name in his taunt. "Zen-zeni!" if memory serves correct. Recall, as you probably already know, his Japanese name is "Zenigame."
Thanks for the comments!

You are probably right on what he says. "Zen-Zeni" makes a lot more sense than what I heard haha. I wonder what it'll be like in the American version...
 

ThePlantiff

Smash Cadet
Joined
Oct 28, 2007
Messages
33
Location
Zapopan, México
Sorry must have read the time thing wrong...
Well I have some questions.

If you use Waterfall against a vertical wall, are you send into helpless mode or can you wall jump or wall cling?

Does Bullet seed have a infinite vertical range or does it have a certain point where the seeds disappear?

In some videos charizard lands rock smash and does around 16-30%, you said that if landed correctly you the max damage is 43%. Is the damage you do to a shielding opponent always the same or it varies like the percentage?

Thanks in advance, sorry if you don't understand some as English is my second language.
 

Elliot Gale

Smash Ace
Joined
Jan 31, 2008
Messages
517
Location
Naperville, IL
I'm trying to figure out a way to actually contribute. D=

I think it would perhaps be a good idea to figure out if it's at all possible to quickly cancel certain moves, like you could with Doc's Up-B in melee.

I dunno, ya gotta button mash to make discoveries sometimes. =P
 

squarez

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Feb 8, 2008
Messages
186
Great Faq, thanks for taking the time to make this. Should be a sticky.
 

pictish freak

Smash Ace
Joined
Jun 7, 2004
Messages
782
I'm not certain if this has been asked before, but if you have the time spare and can tolerate testing yet more stuff, I'd be exceptionally interested in this -

We should all by now know that move decay is an important influence to consider in brawl. The sharp way in which moves lose power when used in succession means KO moves really will need to be timed well. That said, what role does switching play in move decay? These are the realistic possibilities off the top of my head:

Move decay is shared. If squirtle decays upsmash heavily then switches to Ivysaur, Ivysaur will have that exact decay. All other moves decay will correspond to Squirtle's.

Move decay is unique and remembered. Squirtle uses back air a lot and it gets decayed. Ivysaur is switched in and has all fresh moves, but Squirtle's back air will still be decayed when he gets out no matter what Ivysaur does.

Move decay is unique but not remembered. As above, but switching out at all removes all decay.

Obviously the second and third forms of move decay would be somewhat abusable, whereas the first would be the least.

Things to keep in mind when testing move decay, courtesy of mugwhump -

mugwhump said:
-An attack's power decreases on a curve after each successive use, first dropping sharply, then slowly bottoming out to a bit less than half the attack's max power after about 8 uses. You recharge your moves by using different attacks. It doesn't matter if you spam 1 attack, it will still recharge your other previously used attacks.

-Attacks that are bottomed out will recharge faster than attacks near max power. For example, if you use attack A for the first time, then a different attack, then A again, the second A will be weaker. However, if you weaken attack A to its minimum power, then use a different attack, then A again, the second A will be a bit stronger.

-The game remembers a lot of your attacks. I'm not sure if there's a threshold for the number of other moves you need to do before it forgets about a worn out attack and resets it (I know it remembers at least 12). I mean, I did 23% with Ike's Fsmash, did 8 other attacks, and my next Fsmash did 21%. It seems a max power attack will maintain its power with about 10 other attacks between each use, though.

-When you die, your power levels get reset. Zelda/PT can also reset their power through switching(!). Your power levels are not increased by waiting, attacking thin air, attacking someone who is blocking, getting attacked yourself, or switching your attacks to someone else (thus, attacking marth then sheik then marth with one attack will weaken it just as much as using it on marth 3 times).

-All attacks refresh other attacks equally. If you weaken attack X through repeated use, 10 weak jabs will recharge it just as much as 10 fully charged smashes. Different hits of A combos count as seperate attacks, as do seperate throws and throw punches(!). However, repeated hits of infinite punches (like sheik, fox, etc) and drill attacks (mario's Dair) do not count as seperate. Projectiles are weird, too: only the first needle in Sheik's needle storm counts.

-Attacking someone who's countering doesn't count. It counts for the counterer, though, so each successive counter will be weaker, regardless of the attack they're countering.

-Attacking an object DOES count. For example, attacking wario's bike, any destructible things like the walls in MGS land or Luigi's mansion, etc.

-There's a tiny bit of randomization in the damages

- damage doesn't decrease in training mode. This confused me for a while.
Regardless of the three hypotheses I postulated, it should be possible to take advantage of the properties. In the first case, it is possible to commit yourself to not upsmash with squirtle as to save Ivysaur's KO move decay, while allowing something like b-air to decay, since the power and knockback start low for Ivysaur anyway. Alternatively, you could decay moves that are generally useful for squirtle but Ivysaur is overall unlikely to use. Same goes for Ivysaur to Charizard and Charizard to Squirtle, obviously. In the second, one can use the switch as a catch all cure to move decay for the first two switches until lapping back to the first pokemon (assuming you are not first KO'd to reset move decay). In the third case, switching would be an unconditional cure for move decay, highly abusable indeed.

Some testing in this matter would be much appreciated and valuable trainer data. If move decay ends up being my second hypothesis - unique and remembered - please test if being KO'd also removes decay from all three pokemon. It is overwhelmingly likely that it does, and it will if the first or third hold true but is a logical step of testing if the second is true.

Thanks so much for any testing done on this.

Edit: from the discovery topic for move decay it looks like switching between zelda and sheik apparently resets moves. PT wasn't mentioning explicitly but kinda was vaguely in an earlier post. I didn't see a proper confirmation though. It seems this means we've either got the second or third kind of move decay I suggested which surprises me. Sorry for piling on the requests for testing but this certainly seems worth confirming and having in this topic!
 

Card

Smash Lord
Joined
Sep 19, 2001
Messages
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Montreal, Quebec, Canada
Before I go and test this, didn't mugwhump state that;

Zelda/PT can also reset their power through switching
If thats the case (which I think it is), Then the game treats Switching Pokemon as if the Pokemon died. Which in that case, means that Move decay is Unique and Not remembered. I could go do some tests and data analysis, but right now nothing has been finalized with the whole move decay theory, so I don't really know how to go about it properly.

So yes. P.Trainer can abuse Move Decay ;) Another reason to notch us upwards on the tier list.
 

Classic Yayo

Smash Cadet
Joined
Dec 14, 2007
Messages
71
Location
Brooklyn / Philadelphia
Yo love the guide didn't know one would be up to quickly and so in-dept.

Squirtle is a beast, you should play around with his down throw more, anytime i see a character over 100% i run in with Squirtle and d-throw yell out pile driver and I would say 7 times out of 10 they die right off the top, anything over 150% they die 9 out of 10.

Also for Ivysaur another combo I like to do is Nair, and follow the person's DI and link it into the dair, most times this sends them up and you can finish with a up-air or another nair into dair again.

Also i haven't played around with it just yet but I believe Charizard flamethrower and be angled and reflect ice attacks, just like Bowsers! which I find amazing. I'm not sure if it'll reflect anything other than ice attacks though.
 

pictish freak

Smash Ace
Joined
Jun 7, 2004
Messages
782
Move decay is actually supported by a lot of evidence even now. I think it'd be worth at least finding out if the decay is remembered or not, which would be very easy - start a fight with a level 1 CPU or playerless-player 2, spam squirtle's b-air until damage is sharply reduced, switch twice, and see if it's returned to full power or not. This would provide enough evidence for PT having unique and not remembered move decay, and is surely worth mentioning in the FAQ, being one of the core mechanics of brawl.
 

Circles

Smash Cadet
Joined
Apr 29, 2007
Messages
28
Location
Heath, Ohio
I think Usmash for lizardon has super armor. I'm not sure...but if you running upsmash somone they aren't gonna beat your priority.
 

comrade33dawn

Smash Rookie
Joined
Nov 29, 2007
Messages
9
Wow, Ivysaur sure does seem gender confused.
I think Ivysaur is a dude. Cuz he's a dinosaur. And all dinosaurs are male :laugh:

Anyways, how does Charizard's rock smash work with projectiles? I know it can block some, but how does it deal with charged projectiles, like Samus or Lucario? What can the broken pieces of the smash rock do?
 

pictish freak

Smash Ace
Joined
Jun 7, 2004
Messages
782
Exactly 87.5% of Ivysaur are male.

Moving on, I wonder if water gun can set off, block, deflect or do anything else useful to other characters projectiles, or if they just pass through eachother.
 

Card

Smash Lord
Joined
Sep 19, 2001
Messages
1,237
Location
Montreal, Quebec, Canada
Move decay is actually supported by a lot of evidence even now. I think it'd be worth at least finding out if the decay is remembered or not, which would be very easy - start a fight with a level 1 CPU or playerless-player 2, spam squirtle's b-air until damage is sharply reduced, switch twice, and see if it's returned to full power or not. This would provide enough evidence for PT having unique and not remembered move decay, and is surely worth mentioning in the FAQ, being one of the core mechanics of brawl.
Ok I just did your test.

Tested B-Air until it was significantly decayed, Switched twice, B-Air was back to full strength.

So yes, move decay is unique and not remembered. Switching removes all move decay.

I think Usmash for lizardon has super armor. I'm not sure...but if you running upsmash somone they aren't gonna beat your priority.
I did some tests on Charizards U-Smash and it didn't seem to have Super Armor. It just comes out incredibly fast, and the hit-box is enormous. I might be wrong, if you could try testing it and report your own findings that would be great.

Wow, Ivysaur sure does seem gender confused.
Ahaha I know :laugh: As I was writing it I kept switching but forgot to go back and change them in the proof-read... I guess that'll be the next update I do lol
 

Circles

Smash Cadet
Joined
Apr 29, 2007
Messages
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Heath, Ohio
I did some tests on Charizards U-Smash and it didn't seem to have Super Armor. It just comes out incredibly fast, and the hit-box is enormous. I might be wrong, if you could try testing it and report your own findings that would be great.
Your probably right about that, but I have yet to be hit out of it.

Can we change his name to SHARizard? lol

SHAR meaning ShorHop Advancing Rock.

I'm joking, but the rock does pretty much pwn x_x
 

Elliot Gale

Smash Ace
Joined
Jan 31, 2008
Messages
517
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Naperville, IL
Why isn't this a sticky yet? =(

I've been hearing stuff about Mario's FLUDD being able to gimp characters who do their Up-Bs. Could you test this with Squirtle's charged water gun?
 

Card

Smash Lord
Joined
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Messages
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Montreal, Quebec, Canada
Why isn't this a sticky yet? =(

I've been hearing stuff about Mario's FLUDD being able to gimp characters who do their Up-Bs. Could you test this with Squirtle's charged water gun?
Which characters did he gimp?

I've tried and successfully (?) landed to do Fully-Charged Water gun on the following recoveries during an actual match;

Sonic Spring Jump
Snake Cypher
Pit Flight
Lucas PK Thunder
Ike Aether
Rob Hover
Marth (before he Up+B)
Metaknight Everything
Dedede Super-jump

Seriously there is probably more I haven't mentioned cause I cant think of it. It got to the point where my friends were just telling me "dude, stop trying to do **** with that crappy attack" and I'm just like "NEVER! THERE MUST BE A USE FOR IT!!!!" :laugh:

Actually I did find kind of a use from it today... Sonic was doing a Spin-Dash towards me, and a fully-charged Water Gun sort of stopped all his momentum and he was just spinning in 1 spot. But then again... I could have just jumped or shielded it in the first place.........
 

Black/Light

Smash Master
Joined
May 23, 2006
Messages
3,207
Could you try to see if Water Gun can push back projectiles like Lucario's B move?

Really, something is telling me that Water Gun and Fludd both have a important use that has yet to be seen. Don't see both Mr. Nintendo and Squirt haveing a COMPLETELY usless move. . . got to be something it can do to help the player.

I just know someone will find a use for it once brawl is released at some point.:p
 

m0dredus

Hail Hydra
Joined
Nov 20, 2007
Messages
132
Location
Maine
About Squirtle Water gun, I heard that Mario's F.L.U.D.D. makes and opponent unable to do their Up-B after getting hit by it. So if C.falcon does his Up-B, and Mario hits him with the F.L.U.D.D., he can't do his up-b again, and his pushed far away from the ledge with no hope of recovery.

So my obvious question is, can Squirtle's water gun stop opponents from repeating their up-B after being hit?
 

Card

Smash Lord
Joined
Sep 19, 2001
Messages
1,237
Location
Montreal, Quebec, Canada
About Squirtle Water gun, I heard that Mario's F.L.U.D.D. makes and opponent unable to do their Up-B after getting hit by it. So if C.falcon does his Up-B, and Mario hits him with the F.L.U.D.D., he can't do his up-b again, and his pushed far away from the ledge with no hope of recovery.

So my obvious question is, can Squirtle's water gun stop opponents from repeating their up-B after being hit?
That sounds correct. Because it just pushes back, but doesn't cause damage. It wouldn't allow them to do another Up+B. The problem is that it's so situational and difficult to land that it becomes useless. Maybe Capt. Falcon suffers the most against it, I havent had the chance to fight a Capt. Falcon that knows what he is doing. So I can't really comment.
 

Robling

Smash Rookie
Joined
Jan 30, 2008
Messages
13
Location
Virginia
Thank you so much for this post! I was pretty excited about trying out the PT before, but now I'm almost sure I'll main him!
 

Robling

Smash Rookie
Joined
Jan 30, 2008
Messages
13
Location
Virginia
A quick question I just remembered. You said that Ivysaur's D-air stopped his momentum. Could this be used to help recover?
*Sorry for the Double Post. Can anyone tell me how I can delete a post? I can't seem to find the button.*
 

Card

Smash Lord
Joined
Sep 19, 2001
Messages
1,237
Location
Montreal, Quebec, Canada
A quick question I just remembered. Can you said that Ivysaur's D-air stopped his momentum. Could this be used to help recover?
*Sorry for the Double Post*
No and Yes... it actually somewhat hinders your recovery.

It's a little difficult to explain. It helps in recovery in the sense that, if someone jumped off the stage to get you, you can D-Air empty space to stop your vertical fall and just avoid their attack (although an Air-Dodge might accomplish the same thing). It hinders your recovery because you lose some horizontal distance & momentum after recovering from the lag from the D-Air. Imagine in Melee if you are Mario; Jump straight up Vertically (no direction), then as soon as you hit the peak of your jump and begin to fall, hold Right on the control stick. That's the kind of horizontal feeling you get after using a D-Air. Sorry if this sounds complicated to explain... The moment you get to try it yourself you'll understand exactly what I mean.


And there is no Delete Post button :)
 
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