PMBR says they are redesigning recoveries

[\Apples]

You don't have to hit him to consume his double jump. He already does it himself when he floats. Hitting him causes him to have to recover without his double jump, and he can't hover again until he touches the ground.

You didn't understand what I said. "Teleport consumes jump/hover, but does not put Mewtwo in special fall."

I suggest using Up+B, grounded or not, consumes Mewtwo's midair jump/hover. There is no "he already consumes his midair jump when he floats", he just can't do either. I think you're making this more complicated than it is...

 

[Rᴏb]

Every character should have a reverse sweetspot or no character should. It wouldn't sit well with me if every character didn't have it because it is a useful mechanic and deserves to be global. It's bad enough that it is that way in Melee currently, but can't do anything about that. It would be a step backwards to only allow the Melee characters to have a reverse sweet spot in P:M, imo.

Just because it is a useful mechanic doesn't mean every character should automatically get it, take DACUS' for example. At the very least, the PMDT should review all of the characters and their recoveries to determine how each one would benefit from it. They could analyze things like effectiveness and ease of use for each of the recoveries and make decisions based on things of that nature. If the PMDT really want to nerf recoveries in a relatively simple way, this could be a great option.

 

[mimgrim]

Just because it is a useful mechanic doesn't mean every character should automatically get it, take DACUS' for example. At the very least, the PMDT should review all of the characters and their recoveries to determine how each one would benefit from it. They could analyze things like effectiveness and ease of use for each of the recoveries and make decisions based on things of that nature. If the PMDT really want to nerf recoveries in a relatively simple way, this could be a great option.

I also think every character should be able to have a DACUS, actually. That's harder to do however since it would to involve changing up traction for some of the characters and reworking their dash attacks. Whereas reverse ledge-grabs don't really change anything for the character in terms of gameplay besides have an extra option.

At least DACUS makes sense to not actually be a part of every character. Reverse sweetspotting doesn't make sense to not be on every character, imo.

 

[Phaiyte]

I also think every character should be able to have a DACUS, actually. That's harder to do however since it would to involve changing up traction for some of the characters and reworking their dash attacks. Whereas reverse ledge-grabs don't really change anything for the character in terms of gameplay besides have an extra option.

At least DACUS makes sense to not actually be a part of every character. Reverse sweetspotting doesn't make sense to not be on every character, imo.

Dacus is completely dependent on jumpstart frames alone.

 

[Phan7om]

Dacus is dependent on jumpsquat frames, the momentum of the dash attack, and if it can go off ledges or not.

 

[Zerthex]

There should be a bit more leeway when trying to DACUS on characters like Roy and it should be exacutable with Z like Snake's. I believe Roy's DACUS has only a one frame window.

Taken from ItsRainingGravy's DACUS and YOU! guide

Spoiler

Grab for DACUS: No
Timing: 0-1 frame, Super Fast
Length: 5 squares, slightly less than 33.3% the length of Final Destination
Distance Gained: +3.5 squares
Success Rate: Low
Viability: B

 

[shairn]

Characters can only DACUS if their jumpsquat is more than 3 frames. A character needs at least 5 frames of jump squat to DACUS with the grab button. Roy cannot because his jumpsquat is 4 frames. The reason you can't is I believe because grab on the first frame does a boost grab, but I'm not 100% sure so someone feel free to correct me.

 

[Narpas_sword]

Something i've gotten from this thread:

People that are making suggestions to what should happen in a game, actually have no idea how the game works.

 

[WIZRD.Pro]

Something i've gotten from this thread:

People that are making suggestions to what should happen in a game, actually have no idea how the game works.

I concur, there really needs to be a standardized smash test so we can better police these forums. You know, in order to be taken seriously you need to prove your knowledge or something.

 

[Narpas_sword]

nah, that's what the backroom is for.
PMDT know to not take anyone here too seriously.

Its just that a majority whine can cause things to happen that arent needed sometimes.

 

[WIZRD.Pro]

nah, that's what the backroom is for.
PMDT know to not take anyone here too seriously.

Its just that a majority whine can cause things to happen that arent needed sometimes.

Okay, then maybe a forum for people to make non-whining suggestions? XD!

 

[standardtoaster]

http://projectmgame.com/en/news/dev-blogpost-2-tethers

blog post regarding tethers

 

[GP&B]

Edit: Teenage Mutant Ninja Toaster

 

[shairn]

http://projectmgame.com/en/news/dev-blogpost-2-tethers

blog post regarding tethers

I'm liking the extra laggy jump animation. Punishing the tether hop was really tight for characters with a slow DJ, not to mention the possibility for tether cancel. A+ update looking forward to tomorrow.

 

[DrinkingFood]

No Melee tethers :/

 

[shairn]

No Melee tethers :/

I was hoping for that, but I guess we have to take what we can get.

 

[TimeSmash]

Well I'm glad they didn't change them back to Brawl tethers. I don't use any character with a Z tether, and those seem to be more problematic. I'm looking forward to hearing results of their testing

 

[D-idara]

I guess Smash4 will remain my main game, not grabbing the ledge with your back facing to it is SO INFURIATING. I hope they don't nerf Mario's recovery.

 

[GP&B]

Not sure where you got the impression that backwards ledgegrabs would be changed back to Brawl status at any time during PM's development.

 

[MLGF]

Yup, learning how to properly recover, a thing that takes a few minutes of practice and self awareness to do semi consistently is a deal breaker.
Cool, cool.
So, I hope this makes characters with Z-Tethers less reliant on said Z-Tethers, which is all I wanted. Samus never needs to screwed attack and I think this is... well what was needed.

 

[Narpas_sword]

i always need screw attack...

you should edge guard better.
learning how to properly recover edgeguard, a thing that takes a few minutes of practice and self awareness to do semi consistently .....

 

[MLGF]

What I'm saying is, that Z-Tether was almost always a safer option then screwattack.
Screattack isn't bad, but if you just want to safely get back to the ledge, then why use it?

 

[Narpas_sword]

because Grapple has no hitbox and swings you down to the same position every time

But absolutely, if your opponent is going to sit and let you use the grapple, theres no reason to mix it up.

 

[shairn]

Try bairing a Samus away from the ledge with Marth and you'll understand how frustrating it can be.

 

[MLGF]

If you grapple extremely low (which works wonderfully BTW), then a lot of characters can't punish it because they'll SD in the attempt.
Yes, very few characters can do it, but some characters just can not punish it.

Characters like MK and Fox sure. But that's such a damn small amount of the roster.

 

[Narpas_sword]

not sure why people arent killing samus off top tbh.

also, lol at marths complaining they cant get close to samus. welcome to our world.

does marth ^b not hit a hanging samus and still reach the edge?

 

[Master WGS]

I 100% support this in theory. I'll need to try it to be sure, though. 50 frames initially sounded really long, but if you guys have been messing with it and feel like it's fine, I'm willing to give it a shot. That, and I know I abuse Lucas' Z-tether like crazy, so I probably deserve a hefty kick in the teeth after all the cheesing I've done with that thing.

To everyone repeatedly acting like the PMDT is ruining your character by these recovery changes, quit complaining and stop playing the game. I'm sick of your "LET ME WHINE WITHOUT PROPOSING ANY ALTERNATIVE SOLUTIONS," as well as your insufferable desire to make this a less fun game. You're free to disagree with their changes (Lord knows, my problems with PM as a whole are legion), but posts like "GUESS I'M DONE WITH PROJECT M BECAUSE I CAN'T RECOVER THE WAY I WANT" help no one.

I assure you, the meta of this game will develop fine, with or without you. At this point, preferably without.

 

[Narpas_sword]

people also seem tho think that because their character gets slightly worse recovery, nothing else will change and their stuck with a poor character. if your character is in danger of becoming obsolete due to a slight recovery nerf, im SURE PMDT will do something to boost the characters stats elsewhere.

 

[trash?]

I tend to understand why people hate the idea of "x player maining y hates strong nerf of y's move? lmao" but for'real. a person so into samus that their entire account is based on metroid in some form doesn't like that their ridiculously silly move is now less silly

step away from the bias, it won't end well if you don't

 

[Circle_Breaker]

no canon get gud at edgeguard noob

 

[Narpas_sword]

I tend to understand why people hate the idea of "x player maining y hates strong nerf of y's move? lmao" but for'real. a person so into samus that their entire account is based on metroid in some form doesn't like that their ridiculously silly move is now less silly

step away from the bias, it won't end well if you don't

im the one who gets punished if i brainlessly use tether...

 

[trash?]

currently, I could just dair everyone and trade stocks b/c lolmetaknight if I really wanted to. I love just carrying down people to the blast zone like that, it's so spectacularly silly

I'm expecting nerfs on so many things with metaknight and I'm ok w/ that because I am not a giant baby

 

[GP&B]

To be fair, you shouldn't brainlessly use tether. The reason for the nerf was that tethers provided too many options as it was. Characters who already had difficulty jumping out to intercept them have effectively very few safe responses when considering what the tether user could do.

 

[Vashimus]

Which is why hearing the argument that tethering limited your options I find pretty BS. Samus' tether was practically free, and I'm fine admitting that. The risk of going down there to punish it wasn't worth it for a majority of the cast, so now there's limitations on it. It's still a tether, so I'm not complaining.

 

[Narpas_sword]

meh, my point was always that samus could recover from the same places on most stages in melee anyway.

the tether nerf doesnt bother me. ill just bomb stall more.

now if missiles get nerfed ill start crying =p

 

[Rᴏb]

Me too. Sweet tears of joy.

 

[GFooChombey]

I appreciate that Up B and Z air tethers are being treated differently, as they should. Z air users have the option of a recovering Up B they can use while the others limited to just an Up B tether. The extra lag is a little worrisome though. Playing Ivysaur knowing my only way to recover from below is a tether that will be easier to punish is scary. I'm hoping some sort of compensation can be added to characters like that, but I wouldn't know the first thing about balancing a character.

Remember everyone: These updates will be a true test of our ability to adapt. If you can't adapt, you shouldn't be playing a Smash Bros. game.

 

[TimeSmash]

Wait, somebody clear something up for me real quick because I'm tired and can't remember. Don't all characters besides a select few have the ability to grab the ledge backwards if they turn around at the apex of their UpB?? Which ones exactly don't have this ability??

 

[MLGF]

They all do in PM.

 

[TimeSmash]

They all do in PM.

Thanks for clarifying. I'd understand if the range gets shortened, as I've heard it's kind of wonky, and more like Melee where your back actually has to be physically touching the ledge or pretty damn close to grab it