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PMBR says they are redesigning recoveries

InfinityCollision

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removing hover out of teleport is a way worse option than removing the disjointed property from the tail hit box. Simply put hurtboxes along the whole tale that overlap all the current tail hitboxes. That is the only thing that needs change in mewtwo. it makes sense. Why in the world can't you hurt his tail?
Removing hover out of teleport decentralizes Mewtwo's approach mechanics. Hover out of teleport makes his approaches so safe that it outshines almost all of his other options, and the worthwhile alternatives are generally more difficult to set up and execute. It nerfs Mewtwo while diversifying his gameplay in a meaningful way, which is a win both for balance and for character design.

Putting hitboxes on his tail turns him into juggle bait and extends his hurtbox several feet forward any time he's facing away from his opponent. Turning your back on your opponent is suddenly suicide. It's an effective nerf, but not a quality nerf. If they redid his idle/movement/aerial/tumble tail animations then it'd perhaps be worth consideration, but it doesn't significantly affect utilt or uair - reducing tail range slightly is simpler, more logical, and more effectively targets what needs to be adjusted.

As for not being able to hurt his tail, why don't Zard's wings have hurtboxes aside from a small area halfway along their length? Never heard anyone complain about that. Suspend your disbelief for the sake of game design.
 
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John12346

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Well, strictly speaking according to physics everyone should more or less be falling at the same speed with the same acceleration since all of the characters are clearly taking no effort to adjust their body position in order to influence that any.

but yo videogames amirite

As for not being able to hurt his tail, why don't Zard's wings have hurtboxes aside from a small area halfway along their length? Never heard anyone complain about that. Suspend your disbelief for the sake of game design.
Also yeah @ this, I like how everyone's talking about Mewtwo's tail when Charizard's has even more disjoint :smirk:

Although to be fair Charizard doesn't have a float nor a move where he waggles his tail behind him for five hours so iunno what I'm getting at here...
 

MechWarriorNY

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I don't really get what you're saying here. Are you mad about the tether nerfs or mad about the people who can't get over them??
...Yes.


(Not really about the tethers, we had that coming lol, but it IS a little annoying considering Samus was very tough to take out with the old tether /spamusmainbias)
 

victinivcreate1

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It would be cool if m2 had to wait a while to act out of his up b, like MK's.
But MK can act immediately out of Down B. Its called "IDC". Why should Mewtwo have to wait? Remember, MK has insane run speed, a low short hop and a frame 3 nair with little lag/decent size boost grab/reliable air camping/great dash dance. When in the world is MK approaching with Dimensional Cape in neutral? MK has an approach game. If Mewtwo loses his speedy TP, he loses his approach game. He's basically forced to rely on wavetilts and punishing mistakes with grab/fair. Shadow Ball camping is not even that good, people just need to stop getting hit and powershield/jump over it until they get into a range where its unsafe for Mewtwo to SB camp. Mewtwo may be broken in 3.02, but he is not Snake. He doesn't have this godly punish game to make up for a lack of neutral. He's not Mario either, he doesn't have an incredible projectile that beats out most moves and forces things in neutral. He has Teleport and if you limit that, we end up with Melee Mewtwo + a slightly increased tail and forward air.
 

GP&B

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Just remove Telehover and call it a day. I think acting out of Up B is a solid and necessary tool for Mewtwo to have a good standing in the game. Telehover is completely overboard because it allows any of his approaches in the neutral to be ridiculously safe.
 

Hinichii.ez.™

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If he had to wait, that would tone down his options. I'm speaking more so for recovery options. Or do what above poster said.
 

EclipseKirby

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But MK can act immediately out of Down B. Its called "IDC". Why should Mewtwo have to wait? Remember, MK has insane run speed, a low short hop and a frame 3 nair with little lag/decent size boost grab/reliable air camping/great dash dance. When in the world is MK approaching with Dimensional Cape in neutral? MK has an approach game. If Mewtwo loses his speedy TP, he loses his approach game. He's basically forced to rely on wavetilts and punishing mistakes with grab/fair.
It's not a good comparison to compare IDC to Teleport. IDC only allows horizontal movement (unless you wait until he fully disappears, but that is by no means quick) and always ends with an attack. An attack with a ton of endlag. MK doesn't use it in neutral much not becasuse he has a neutral otherwise, but because it simply isn't that great in neutral. If it is dodged or block, MK will eat a full punish, something someone of his fall speed and weight doesn't enjoy.
 

Phaiyte

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Removing hover out of teleport decentralizes Mewtwo's approach mechanics. Hover out of teleport makes his approaches so safe that it outshines almost all of his other options, and the worthwhile alternatives are generally more difficult to set up and execute. It nerfs Mewtwo while diversifying his gameplay in a meaningful way, which is a win both for balance and for character design.

Putting hitboxes on his tail turns him into juggle bait and extends his hurtbox several feet forward any time he's facing away from his opponent. Turning your back on your opponent is suddenly suicide. It's an effective nerf, but not a quality nerf. If they redid his idle/movement/aerial/tumble tail animations then it'd perhaps be worth consideration, but it doesn't significantly affect utilt or uair - reducing tail range slightly is simpler, more logical, and more effectively targets what needs to be adjusted.

As for not being able to hurt his tail, why don't Zard's wings have hurtboxes aside from a small area halfway along their length? Never heard anyone complain about that. Suspend your disbelief for the sake of game design.
Hovering out of teleport is not safe unless the opponent is literally ********.
 

InfinityCollision

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All of Mewtwo's aerials are positive on shield when HC'd except nair, which is still -2. He has options for end location that are not punished by your precious "lol just jab", assuming he doesn't outrange it or potentially trade (which would still favor Mewtwo). He can safely space a turnaround bair on most of the cast (certainly against jabs), or even retreat with it. This is all assuming that the only option the Mewtwo player is taking is teleport directly into an aerial, as opposed to baiting an attack while in hover or using any of a variety of mixups. If the only thing the Mewtwo player does is teleport directly into you and nair then yes, it's not entirely safe... But why are we talking about subpar teleport utilization?

Contrast this with non-HC'd teleport approaches, where nair is pretty much guaranteed to invite a punish unless you successfully confirm/shield poke and its efficacy is limited by the loss of hover. Teleport into (DJC) fair is moderately fast to come out and -1, but his startup time on normals and grabs is generally average to high and he's strongly disadvantaged on block when using a normal. He does have mixups at this point, but the overall safety of his approaches is diminished (best options are less safe and he has to commit more) and counterplay is more effectively established.

On the flip side, this is also why making direct changes to teleport is such a sensitive issue - if you make it longer/increase endlag then you make it easier to punish on reaction. If teleport approaches get stuffed with any degree of consistency then Mewtwo's ability to approach is heavily diminished and his performance degrades dramatically.
 
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victinivcreate1

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Hover Cancels are not made for approaches by themselves. Hover Cancels allow easy combo set ups and basic shield pressure. HC fair into FH fair into TP fair at low percents is a favorite of mine.

Mewtwo does not have a strong enough punish/edgegaurd game to afford to lose his good Teleport. I mean lets say he dropped the Hover out of TP and Teleport was suddenly frame 13-27. That would kind screw Mewtwo over. I said this earlier, Mewtwo is not Snake. He doesn't have an incredible punish game that can instantly make comebacks with a single move. He's not Pit or Sheik either. He doesn't have an incredible projectile that can be looped at any given interval or thrown at a diagonal angle stuffling low recoveries, and he doesn't have a move that has powerful semi spike properties.

Mewtwo would still be a powerful, but balanced character (as he should be, he is the most powerful pokemon in the game technically :troll:) if he was nerfed in these ways
Weight change to 90
Decrease of DJ and subsequently decrease of distance in Hover
No more Hover out of Teleport, but YES DJ out of TP. DJC aerials are not broken AT ALL, nor are they safe on shield lol.

As for your hated ledgestall? I kinda like it. Woopwoopwoop is kinda entertaining, gets the stream monsters hype xD and its something nice to show off between stocks lol. We all gotta admit, when Emukiller was doing like 50 woops during SKTAR 3 GFs and bobbing his head to the rhythm of the woops, that it was pretty funny. Anyway, I have figured out a way to keep it and nerf it at the same time.
Ledgewoop limit of 5. After 5 ledegwoops he misses the ledge and SDs. He can reset the ledgewoop limit by touching the ground for at least 3 seconds. If he tries to scar the ledge after the 5th woop so he can still try to ledgestall, he'll still miss it and SD/he won't have his Teleport.

Personally I love this character. But he could very easily be rendered garbage if the nerfs around are careless and from salty people who lost to Emukiller.
 

GP&B

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No more Hover out of Teleport, but YES DJ out of TP. DJC aerials are not broken AT ALL, nor are they safe on shield lol.
I am okay with this. I think Tele should still play a part in Mewtwo's approach and offense. It should be a thing that's feared in the neutral, but not unbelievably safe as it is right now.
 

JRC LSS

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This thread has just become a general Mewtwo nerf thread. I just want his DJ/hover out of teleport to have consistent and simple rules as to when it does and doesn't work. Like, make him always be able to dj out of teleport or never be able to. I'm inclined to say never, so as not to give him another recovery option, although it wouldn't help him that much.

The trouble with nerfing recoveries is that you have to be careful not to limit that character's offensive options. I think a reasonable nerf to mario would be simply to shorten his up b length a bit.

For Ivysaur, only the first dair she uses should be useful for stalling. Then the stalling quickly decays like marth's side b or olimar's neutral b.

For Pit, I think a good nerf would be to make his glide like charizard's, where he can't jump out of it or after it. It wouldn't do too much damage to his offensive game, and this way the glides would all be more consistent.
 

Narpas_sword

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i took a trip to 2011, the initial goal seemed to be around 75% of Melee's LO according to Shanus. So ~25%, but only PMDT knows what it ultimately came to be.

either way i'm fine with the current value, my point was that the hang-time on current recoveries don't allow for an accurate representation of the new value (making LO seem shorter than it really is) With the decreased LO, certain up-Bs like Roy's, Ike's, and Squirtle's have become overly difficult to edgehog via ledge roll. Their big hitbox disjoints force you to roll early to avoid being hit, and then the hang-time on their up-b allows them to wait out the shortened LO and grab the ledge. That's the problem.


Edit: Here's an example

-Mango vs Sethlon-
http://youtu.be/jc4wiUysDXc

@2:40 failed attempt
@3:40 failed attempt
@4:50 super failed attempt + stage spiked at ZERO percent :(

if too much is changed, the next 6 page topic will be "Is edge hogging too safe'?

IMO edgeguarding should take some effort. not 'hang on edge and hit R when enemy is close'
 

kaizo13

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if too much is changed, the next 6 page topic will be "Is edge hogging too safe'?

IMO edgeguarding should take some effort. not 'hang on edge and hit R when enemy is close'
Did you even read my post? what i'm asking for is not "changing too much"
Edgehogging would still be harder than Melee since LO is already decreased. All i'm saying is remove the Brawl-esque floaty up-b's so that edgehogging works like it's supposed to.

if you think edguarding took no effort in Melee.... well then, idk what to tell you
 
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victinivcreate1

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Can you please stop thinking you have any valuable and original input on the character, you have no exp at all, thanks.
Sure thing. Whatever you say oh high and mighty one.

I'll say one hing though, the ledgewoop limit is my idea. I haven't seen anyone suggest something on what to do with it besides remove it.

Also many of the nerfs I state are obvious. I'm not the first person to say these things nor am I the last. Chill man, I'm not out to get anybody, but idk about you.
 
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TimeSmash

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Does staking claim to things really matter, on a thread about redesigning recoveries?
If Sheik could not have ten million frames of endlag after landing with UpB that would be great
 

Hinichii.ez.™

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Does staking claim to things really matter, on a thread about redesigning recoveries?
If Sheik could not have ten million frames of endlag after landing with UpB that would be great
But then
She could be half decent
Can not do
Best go back to melee
 

DrinkingFood

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Lack of a good recovery isn't holding sheik back lol. She is still amazing.
And don't forget down-b is a viable recovery option.
 
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Kankato

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What do you think they're going to do to MK? His onstage game is solid but his recovery is ridiculous.
 

MLGF

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Make Down B vulnerable except for when it's used as a kill move, make glide straight down.
I dunno, that's it I guess.
 

Stevo

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all you have to do to fix ledge stalling, which includes woopwoop, is add diminishing returns on ledge invincibility. I've been saying this for years, even back in demo 1. Refreshing invincibility for ledge guarding, or ledge stalling a few times to slow the pace of the match, or wait out the opponents invincibility is fine, but when it goes to re-grabbing the ledge over and over it's time the invincibility starts to run out at some point. It won't hurt any regular play except for excessive stalling.
All in my opinion.
 

Kankato

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Make Down B vulnerable except for when it's used as a kill move, make glide straight down.
I dunno, that's it I guess.
What about his four jumps and glide? What about the occasional tornado? Are those all managable enough to stay or do you think they'll be nerfed?
 
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Ganondalf

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Maybe it's me but Luigi's recovery is still absurdly slow. I know his horizontal air movement is suppose to be trash and his Side-B is his real recovery but it's unreliable, slow to execute and it even moves slowly if you don't get the pseudo-RNG and even if you do, you might over shoot. Combine this with how slippery he is, it's really tough recovering if at all as Luigi. Not to mention his slow fall speed makes throwing him upwards is also stupid easy.
 

MLGF

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What about his four jumps and glide? What about the occasional tornado? Are those all managable enough to stay or do you think they'll be nerfed?
The Nado is honestly pretty easy to punish, like Charizard can DI out of it and nair punish even if Meta Knnight hit confirms it.

As for the jumps... maybe one less? I dunno, maybe not. I can't say honestly. Meta Knight is really light. I think his recovery is justifiable because he gets launched like crazy and is really easy to combo too. So since he dies easily when he fails to get in, I think his recovery is honestly justifiable in a way. I think his distance is fine really, if we're talking about being safe then I find these options the best choice, moves like Down B are where his recovery is pushing it.

And while I flattered that you ask me...
Why am I the deciding force? I'm just some guy who plays Meta Knight to cover the boomerang matchup. I mean, I think meta Knight is really good, but it's not my place to judge.
 
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kaizo13

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lol you know it's bad when you have to counter-pick for a single move (boomerang) rather than the character as a whole
 

MLGF

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Well, I'm exaggerating. I do like Meta Knight for matchups really projectile heavy characters. Boomerang just gets me more salty then anything else...
 

Ganondalf

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I guess Smash4 will remain my main game, not grabbing the ledge with your back facing to it is SO INFURIATING. I hope they don't nerf Mario's recovery.
I disagree with this statement. Mario's basic recovery is fine but his damn Side-B is out of control it seems. The amount of horizontal distance it gives plus stopping mario in midair for a moment AND being able to change his direction is curaazzaayy good. I know he is Jumpman and all but good lord... dat recovery is insane.
 
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