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PMBR says they are redesigning recoveries

Mischief

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It's Happening!
PMBR just released a blog post regarding PM 3.5 and its design approach for the new release. They plan on nerfing recoveries across the board. I agree with this design choice.

 
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thatoneguy1

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hopefully they nerf pit, my god is his recovery insanely annoying.
 

cmvnb3

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I'm not sure how I'll feel about this change, I'll have to try it out and see. But if the PMBR are serious about making some improvements to their game, then I think I have a pretty good suggestion: Make it more visually like Melee than Brawl. That is, make the color more saturated instead of so washed out and keep the camera zoomed in slightly closer, acting more dynamic like melee's camera. I've been playing melee recently and I noticed that it looks so much more clear and vivid, improving my ability to read the opponent and especially see better when the camera is zoomed out in free-for-alls/team battles. Just doing some or even one of these changes would probably help PM gameplay.
 

Mansta

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I hate nerfs that ruins my mains. The recoveries are fine the way are. I don't see why everyone needs a **** recovery.
No one said the recoveries had to be ****, just some of them are a little bit too easy/unpredictable in people's opinions.
 
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InfinityCollision

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I'm gonna quote myself from the other thread.

Ability to recover from a significant distance away and ability to recover with low risk are two different things.
Now I'm obviously not a member of the PMBR, but for the overwhelming majority of cases (possibly all) I don't think recovery distance is the main issue at hand. The issue lies in certain low-risk recoveries.

It's not going to ruin anyone (are we really whining about characters getting "ruined" in a mod emphasizing balance?), just make them work a bit harder to get back on stage. That's a good thing.
 
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Defile

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I hope they don't nerf Pikachu's recovery (since he's a light-weight) but if they do, I would recommend the following...

1. Reduce Skull Bash's range.
2. Make it impossible to grab the ledge with Skull Bash.
3. Increase the amount of time Pikachu is in a helpless state after using Skull Bash.

Reducing the range of quick attack would be unfair, in my opinion, since the distance it covers is already less than it was in Brawl.
 
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GFooChombey

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I know a lot of people are worried about their characters and the hazards this update could cause you, but take a step back for a second and think about this. There's no denying that the general consensus is that some recoveries need to be toned down. Look at some Deep Kong footage, for example. PM is at a semi-complete state with all the characters (plus a few extras) available, plenty of viable stages, and an established rule set. This is the most important time for the meta to grow and develop and this is their only chance to fix any glaring issues. Imagine in 2 years if no adjustments were made and characters with deep recovery abilities were top tier. If they were nerfed then, it would be a slap to the community. It's now or never.

I'm worried about 2 of my characters, but I know this needs to be done for the longevity and appeal of the mod.
 

menotyou135

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I feel like certain characters don't need nerfs to recovery. Rather there need to be certain characters that are nerfed in recovery.

For example, nerfing falco, gannondorf, c. falcon, roy, or shiek is silly (among others). IMO, it would be nice if some of the characters at the top of the tier list got more slightly more recovery adjustment than lower characters. I don't think anything as drastic as meta knight's changes from brawl to pm is required on any character.
 

shairn

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I feel like certain characters don't need nerfs to recovery. Rather there need to be certain characters that are nerfed in recovery.

For example, nerfing falco, gannondorf, c. falcon, roy, or shiek is silly (among others). IMO, it would be nice if some of the characters at the top of the tier list got more slightly more recovery adjustment than lower characters. I don't think anything as drastic as meta knight's changes from brawl to pm is required on any character.
The PMBR's not about to make bad-okay characters worse.
 

GP&B

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I think the main problem is that the penalty for getting hit for some characters is absolutely negligible. Consider that every hit that swats Ike away from the stage severely limits the way he can mix up QD as he may be forced to go straight for the ledge. Some recoveries outright don't have this issue and it's this that makes dealing with them super boring and unrewarding.
 

muleet

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I would like my characters to be nerfed. I think if we have less possibilities it's easier to perform them, and for a game that has so many matchups it's still long and difficult. A game where too many things are possible too many times does not create tension, which is probably the most important thing for a competitive game.
(I would also like the characters I don't play to be nerf, so I would have more reason to play them.)
 

Eisen

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I think it's great, myself. Lucas is one of the worst offenders, having a Samus-level recovery while still being a fake spacie with all his moves having kill properties. Samus herself, while always having a good recovery, is just way too good at recovering. It's just boring to watch that tether do all the work.

I'm a little worried about how I'll adjust to Lucas' changes, especially since I'm a bad offstage player, myself. But I also think it'll benefit me in actually being able to practice offstage game against characters like Diddy now. To top it off, My Lucas' punishes will go further than they ever have, and in general matchups won't be so frustrating. The game in general will become more offensive, too.

Another thing quelling my worries is the section of the PMBR's post about recoveries that states they are attempting to stop overbuffing/overnerfing characters. They realize it's a problem, so that's definitely a right step.
 

Broasty

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I think they're referring to stuff like the following:
Diddy
Mario
Mewtwo
MetaKnight
Kirby
Charizard
(Possibly) Luigi
Samus
Rob
(Maybe) Lucas

And honestly I want these changes, even if it affects MY character.
 

Joe73191

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Pit: losing his jumps after side-B
Mewtwo: losing float after teleport
Ivysaur: new d-air
Diddy: up-B shorter range
Mario: losing wall jump after up-B
Lucas: Losing backward momentum from side-B
Zelda: No longer invincible during first 6 frames of neutral-B and new down-B
Shiek: New down-B and make her whip a tether

This is just what I think the recovery changes should be.
 

McSlur

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As a Roy main, I'm pretty confident that his recovery cannot be much worse.

*Patch 3.5 changelog.
Roy: Blazer now has an initial start up lag much like firefox, and travels half the distance.
(I'm joking)
 

Exodo

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Oh great, Falco's Firebird probably goes half distance of the old one. As if having the worst recovery of the cast wasn't enough already...
lol i would expect them to buff that recovery not make it even worse.
 

HRR2b23

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You know, I would say something like "RIP Falco/Sheik" but I have a feeling those two won't be nerfed. Zelda on the other hand...they'll probably just remove the love jump, which I'll be okay with.
 

Hinichii.ez.™

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I wonder what this means for Diddy Kong.
I feel like we will see no more blast zone recovers. I hope they completely remove the miss fire ****, like really, make it home in on people to punish them from edge gaurding you? What a load of bull**** lmao.
I hate nerfs that ruins my mains. The recoveries are fine the way are. I don't see why everyone needs a **** recovery.
Well, I doubt all will get nerfed(bad/decent characters), but some key offenders like, samus, lucas, sonic, mewtwo, diddy etc, will for sure be getting those sweet, sweet nerfs.
how the **** do people come to the conclusion of "ALL CHARACTERS WILL BE NERFED" when the PMBR say 'they are redesigning recoveries'
Well, I'm pretty sure link's up B is getting a nerf...what could something like that say for most other characters? I personally thought his recovery was fine.

I will laugh my ass off, if lucas has a recovery like falco after this nerf. I will be so pleased....
 
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yohoos

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They won't be nerfing recoveries across the board they will be reviewing and balancing them. So in other words, Falcon buffs.
 

DrinkingFood

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I hope PMBR knows what they are doing when it comes to ROB. He has so few players, and I'm not even sure if JCz is involved in tournaments or the PMBR anymore. And now of course Oracle barely plays ROB. Who are they looking to for ROB knowledgeable players? His recovery has long distance, but is easily gimpable, what stops it from being mediocre is that he has lots of stalling options to keep from being hit before he lands in the first place, because nobody wants to go out and challenge ROB off stage since it's a high risk. If he gets recovery nerfs, first addressed should be his ridiculous ledge grab sweetspot. He can grab it out of side-b from a full ROB length below the edge, it's ridiculous. His Dair should also have reduced upward momentum/reduced consecutive stalling effects, meaning he won't be able to always make it back from the top corner using dair. This would actually help his combo game a little bit too, as he'll be able to follow-up opponents he has meteored to the ground more quickly, which is one of his only combo options on floaties.
 
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\Apples

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Some changes I'm hoping to see...

Mewtwo: Teleport consumes jump/hover, but does not put Mewtwo in special fall.
Diddy: Aerial Side+B puts Diddy into special fall. Up+B loses RNG barrels.
Kirby: Forward Cutter consumes jumps, but does not put Kirby in special fall.
Pit: Side+B consumes Pit's jumps.
Lucas: PSI Magnet doesn't coast horizontally as much.
Olimar: Just give him the flying Pikmin for an Up+B. Smash 4 at least did that right.

Characters I could see wanting to change, but I'm unsure what to change, if anything at all...
ROB, Yoshi, Snake, Sonic, ZSS, Lucario, Ivysaur

Some recoveries I see players whining about which I'm hoping are left mostly unchanged because they're actually pretty reasonable...
Mario, Samus, Luigi, Wario, Charizard, Dedede, Roy, Metaknight, Link, Toon Link, Zelda, Squoitle

I know it's not uniform that Charizard should get to keep his jumps after gliding and Pit doesn't. The reason I don't think Pit should is because of how fast his glide is. So I'm thinking more in terms of close range recovery than long.

If Melee tethers are returning then that changes everything btw.
 

Phaiyte

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Some changes I'm hoping to see...
Mewtwo: Teleport consumes jump/hover, but does not put Mewtwo in special fall.
Hitting Mewtwo out of teleport float already consumes his double jump, which is definitely not hard to do.
 

Mischief

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^ So it's not hard to hit someone on a read - because we already know the number of frames it takes to teleport float is lower than human reaction time - in a completely random area at a completely random time due to ledge stalls? You'll have to explain this to me.
 

GP&B

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I think the most important thing that should be focused on is consistency throughout the cast. What makes Lucas' magnet stall stupid is that it breaks the rule of diminishing returns. That is, any special/move that has a stalling effect in the air can only apply once and is restored only on grabbing the ledge/touching the ground. There isn't any reason for exceptions.

The other inconsistency is recoveries not losing options or even regaining them for getting punished. The problem isn't that recoveries are overall effective; this I feel is okay. It's that some of them are barely affected by successful edgeguards and this is definitely the most frustrating part of it. You shouldn't automatically lose for getting hit while off-stage, but it should certainly reduce your options.
 
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Hinichii.ez.™

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It would be cool if m2 had to wait a while to act out of his up b, like MK's.
 
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Phan7om

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Hmm, things will get interesting when this new patch comes out. Cant wait for all of the salt and rage when it gets released!
 
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CyberZixx

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Oh great, Falco's Firebird probably goes half distance of the old one. As if having the worst recovery of the cast wasn't enough already...
Why do people thing Falco has the worst recovery? He really don't. There are a least a handful of characters with worse.
 

Circle_Breaker

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I'm guessing tethers are getting a fundamental redesign and maybe they're going to remove the possibility of sweetspotting the ledge out of an upB when you're facing the wrong direction.
 

Rᴏb

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maybe they're going to remove the possibility of sweetspotting the ledge out of an upB when you're facing the wrong direction.
I'm really hoping they fix this. I seen the PMBR say that reverse ledgegrabs out of upb were intentional, but I've also seen them say that it was a relic of brawl that they couldn't change.

I also hope they figure out a way to get melee tethers back. I'm going to be very disappointed if they can't.
 

Scrubby

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I think it's great. One of the things I like about competitive melee is the off stage edgeguarding, which is lacking a lot in P:M, because most of the time staying on stage is better and safer than getting off stage to gimp because recoveries offers way too much safe options,
 

GFooChombey

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I'm really hoping they fix this. I seen the PMBR say that reverse ledgegrabs out of upb were intentional, but I've also seen them say that it was a relic of brawl that they couldn't change.

I also hope they figure out a way to get melee tethers back. I'm going to be very disappointed if they can't.
Unfortunately with tethers, there are two different kinds in the game. Z airs and Up B. The problem with changing them back to Melee's standards is that it would require a redesign for ZZS, Ivysaur, Olimar, and anyone else who relies on it for recovery. If they figure out a way to do both, that's marvelous, but I don't think that would be possible.
 

Narpas_sword

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other than changing up the limits on tethers, i dont know what they can do to hurt samus without making her recovery super bad.

Lets be honest, she's always been a good recover-er. With weight she survives. With bombs a decent double, floaty, and Screw attack and tether mixup she recovers. and that's melee.

The thing is, even if her tether got limited to 1-2, shed still make it back.
if her tether also got shortened, shed still make it back (though, it will take longer)
taking longer to get back isn't exactly 'upping the pace' of the game. reducing samus tether length = more time bombing = more recovery time. she'll still make it back just as much.
 
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