PMBR says they are redesigning recoveries

[Vashimus]

Me too. Sweet tears of joy.

You sick *******.

 

[kaizo13]

here's something nobody thinks about and is another reason edgeguarding is more difficult in PM

pmbr cut ledge roll occupancy frames by about half (which was good), but they didn't remove the hangtime that most up-b's have at the apex of the move. This made some of the timings really strict or near impossible.

I hope this is addressed in 3.5

 

[TreK]

I'm afraid some characters will just be able to get a guaranteed bair during the tether hop, and upB tethers will be screwed.
But we'll see.

I winder who'll get hit by the nerf hammer tomorrow. I kind of expect the obvious mewtwo, but I hope for Fox.

 

[Rᴏb]

I hope they explain Diddy's. I feel like his recovery is the most controversial because of how vocal people are on both sides of the argument. I also just want to see Diddy mains get BTFO.

 

[Phan7om]

Its prob Mewtwo, Pit, or Diddy. Maybe Mario but i highly doubt it. Im just going off of what people whine about the most.

 

[McSlur]

I would think the redesigned recovery would be on a character with a tether. Mostly because they were talking about tethers....
I'm guessing Ivy.

 

[Raijinken]

At least based on their tether recovery post, I'm looking forward to the change. Tired of watching all the tether stalling. Though watching tether stalling isn't half as bad as watching Diddy recover from every blast line ever.

 

[Exodo]

get ready people its either Ganondorf with OoT hover ability or Wario Multi Fart Jumps!!!!

EDIT: or Falco learned how to use his wings properly!!!

...i hope so

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

Whats up tether *****es? How that NERF feel on yo shoulders?

Well?

 

[Master WGS]

Well?

Very good. I've been asking for this since Demo 2.

 

[McSlur]

Aw, Lucas. I was close though...
How about that PKT2 buff?

 

[bountyxhunted]

Its prob Mewtwo, Pit, or Diddy. Maybe Mario but i highly doubt it. Im just going off of what people whine about the most.

if they nerfed mewtwo's recovery it'd be the worst nerf in the history of nerfs. Mewtwo's recovery is what makes mewtwo, mewtwo.
what they need to look into with mewtwo is his obscene amount of options onstage.

 

[Joe73191]

If they replaced the glide mechanic with different recovery moves for charizard, metaknight and pit it would help. Maybe make diddy's up B shorter range for the amount of charge required. Possibly give mewtwo's n-air less damage and you would be set. No other changes would be needed.

 

[Circle_Breaker]

Glide really isn't bad imo. Usually pretty easy to stuff a glide if you've got a pair.

 

[John12346]

To my experience, MK and Zard's glides are both pretty dangerous to challenge simply because of those massive hitboxes, but perhaps I'm misinformed.

Also, food for thought, what if the Z-Tethers stayed exactly the same way they are now, but they have to be inputted with a Grab command all in one frame(such as with the Z button), and not Airdodge > Attack? As in, tethers with no invincibility nor extra movement attached to it? Ignoring how that might affect their neutral game onstage, it definitely seems like an interesting way to look at those recoveries, eh?

 

[Circle_Breaker]

MK using glide attack kills him if he does it too far from the stage. His basic horizontal air mobility is baaad. Charizard's glide attack is okay but nothing too great, almost every character has something that beats it out pretty bad, and charizard is usually the one lacking options for spacing in that situation.

 

[LydianAlchemist]

I'm not sure how I'll feel about this change, I'll have to try it out and see. But if the PMBR are serious about making some improvements to their game, then I think I have a pretty good suggestion: Make it more visually like Melee than Brawl. That is, make the color more saturated instead of so washed out and keep the camera zoomed in slightly closer, acting more dynamic like melee's camera. I've been playing melee recently and I noticed that it looks so much more clear and vivid, improving my ability to read the opponent and especially see better when the camera is zoomed out in free-for-alls/team battles. Just doing some or even one of these changes would probably help PM gameplay.

This for days.
Brawl assets look great... but not in 480p or 480i. Melee had more primary colors and less detailed/muddy textures. just look at peach's turnips.. but the only thing would be keeping the filesize within limits?
As far as the camera its something they've always wanted to do but haven't been able to.

 

[Lukingordex]

I wounder if Fox will ever be touched? I mean, with character's recovery being nerfed in that way, I'd imagine that would be a very significant indirect buff for Fox, which is a character that doesn't needs any buffs.

 

[jotun]

Too many of the up-B moves in the game have little-to-no landing lag, obscenely high priority, and/or allow attacks afterward

 

[kaizo13]

I wounder if Fox will ever be touched? I mean, with character's recovery being nerfed in that way, I'd imagine that would be a very significant indirect buff for Fox, which is a character that doesn't needs any buffs.

how would that be an indirect buff for fox? fox's recovery is actually one of his weakest assets as it very linear and can be hit out of the air pretty easily. Yeah it has good distance and has a variety of mixups but it is a lot easier to edgeguard than a lot of other current recoveries

 

[Lukingordex]

But I'm not talking about Fox's recovery.

What I mean is: Fox will be able to edgeguard characters even more, look at his shine.

 

[standardtoaster]

Recovery changes will indirectly buff a lot of characters, not just fox.

 

[mimgrim]

Recovery changes will indirectly buff a lot of characters, not just fox.

Especially the triple D.

 

[bountyxhunted]

Recovery changes will indirectly buff a lot of characters, not just fox.

Glad you guys are aware.

 

[kaizo13]

Especially the triple D.

but most importantly,

 

[Joe73191]

Mewtwo's tail hitboxes should not be disjointed.

 

[Mischief]

here's something nobody thinks about and is another reason edgeguarding is more difficult in PM

pmbr cut ledge roll occupancy frames by about half (which was good), but they didn't remove the hangtime that most up-b's have at the apex of the move. This made some of the timings really strict or near impossible.

I hope this is addressed in 3.5

This should be read by everyone.

 

[Strong Badam]

here's something nobody thinks about and is another reason edgeguarding is more difficult in PM

pmbr cut ledge roll occupancy frames by about half (which was good), but they didn't remove the hangtime that most up-b's have at the apex of the move. This made some of the timings really strict or near impossible.

I hope this is addressed in 3.5

We definitely didn't cut ledge roll occupancy by anywhere near half. It was something like 10% at most IIRC. Some of the outliers are still very visually strange, such as Falcon's ledge rolls.

 

[InfinityCollision]

Mewtwo's tail hitboxes should not be disjointed.

You're out of your mind. Maybe if the PMBR redid his idle/movement/air animations to be more Melee-esque, but as is that's an insane nerf. Reducing tail range slightly is a simpler and more logical nerf that better fits what he actually needs changed, along with disabling hover out of teleport. Significant adjustments beyond that would imply that the PMBR intends to heavily reduce the average power level of the cast, which I don't expect to happen.

I don't think most people fully understand how much he relies on his current range and the safety of hover aerials out of teleport. Take that away and he's much less powerful and very close to balanced. Other minor changes might be in order depending on overall balance goals, but they should be handled carefully.

I wounder if Fox will ever be touched?

For better or for worse I doubt he'll ever see significant changes. Overall balancing will inevitably happen around how well he fares in whatever form the current PM meta takes.

 

[Mischief]

Fox is a wonderful litmus test for what the casts "power levels" should be. I don't think fox is the best character in PM, or even needs to be. But there shouldn't be anyone much much stronger than him. By putting an upper limit on how good a character can be, roughly around the level of fox, we get a balanced but also sensible game. Changing fox with buffs and nerfs ruins that litmus test and give us no real metric for judging how good / bad a character is. Leave fox alone. Leave him alone!

 

[Narpas_sword]

Well?

We're still fine. We will adapt.

Question is:
What are you going to ***** about next?

 

[GP&B]

You keep saying adapt and ignore that a good chunk of the cast has next to no good responses to tethers. Please at least supplement some reasoning instead of a stock word to fall back on.

 

[kaizo13]

We definitely didn't cut ledge roll occupancy by anywhere near half. It was something like 10% at most IIRC. Some of the outliers are still very visually strange, such as Falcon's ledge rolls.

i took a trip to 2011, the initial goal seemed to be around 75% of Melee's LO according to Shanus. So ~25%, but only PMDT knows what it ultimately came to be.

either way i'm fine with the current value, my point was that the hang-time on current recoveries don't allow for an accurate representation of the new value (making LO seem shorter than it really is) With the decreased LO, certain up-Bs like Roy's, Ike's, and Squirtle's have become overly difficult to edgehog via ledge roll. Their big hitbox disjoints force you to roll early to avoid being hit, and then the hang-time on their up-b allows them to wait out the shortened LO and grab the ledge. That's the problem.


Edit: Here's an example

-Mango vs Sethlon-
http://youtu.be/jc4wiUysDXc

@2:40 failed attempt
@3:40 failed attempt
@4:50 super failed attempt + stage spiked at ZERO percent

 

[Narpas_sword]

You keep saying adapt and ignore that a good chunk of the cast has next to no good responses to tethers. Please at least supplement some reasoning instead of a stock word to fall back on.

Im saying tether users will adapt to having worse tethers =/

 

[GP&B]

I'm stupid and did not look into context enough.

My fault.

 

[Joe73191]

removing hover out of teleport is a way worse option than removing the disjointed property from the tail hit box. Simply put hurtboxes along the whole tale that overlap all the current tail hitboxes. That is the only thing that needs change in mewtwo. it makes sense. Why in the world can't you hurt his tail?

 

[Yurya]

Fox is a wonderful litmus test for what the casts "power levels" should be. I don't think fox is the best character in PM, or even needs to be. But there shouldn't be anyone much much stronger than him. By putting an upper limit on how good a character can be, roughly around the level of fox, we get a balanced but also sensible game. Changing fox with buffs and nerfs ruins that litmus test and give us no real metric for judging how good / bad a character is. Leave fox alone. Leave him alone!

I agree on a litmus test but I think that he test should be Marth, Capt. Falcon, and Peach.

 

[MechWarriorNY]

Im saying tether users will adapt to having worse tethers =/

Unlike the vocal minority in this community who seems to have actual influence.

Can't wait to say "I told you so, you idiots!" when this kind of garbage escalates serially.

 

[Phaiyte]

But I'm not talking about Fox's recovery.

What I mean is: Fox will be able to edgeguard characters even more, look at his shine.

If you have to complain about Fox's shine off the stage, you should probably consider complaining about your own positioning first.

 

[TimeSmash]

Unlike the vocal minority in this community who seems to have actual influence.

Can't wait to say "I told you so, you idiots!" when this kind of garbage escalates serially.

I don't really get what you're saying here. Are you mad about the tether nerfs or mad about the people who can't get over them??