PMBR says they are redesigning recoveries

[\Apples]

Hitting Mewtwo out of teleport float already consumes his double jump, which is definitely not hard to do.

I didn't say anything about that. It shouldn't be required that he be hit.

 

[hotdogturtle]

Sonic needs to stop getting so many spindash moves that he can use after his up-B. I feel like sometimes hitting him after his up-B actually helps him recover.

You know what, there was just plain too many characters who can act after their up-B and get to reuse it if they get hit out of it. If characters like Mewtwo, Snake, and Sonic don't get specialfall after their up-B, they should at least have limited options after using it, so they don't just have a risk-free recovery move that they can use at any point offstage. Also I would honestly bring back the thing from Brawl where Snake (and characters with similar style recoveries) don't regain their up-B if they're grabbed out of using it.

 

[GFooChombey]

other than changing up the limits on tethers, i dont know what they can do to hurt samus without making her recovery super bad.

Lets be honest, she's always been a good recover-er. With weight she survives. With bombs a decent double, floaty, and Screw attack and tether mixup she recovers. and that's melee.

The thing is, even if her tether got limited to 1-2, shed still make it back.
if her tether also got shortened, shed still make it back (though, it will take longer)
taking longer to get back isn't exactly 'upping the pace' of the game. reducing samus tether length = more time bombing = more recovery time. she'll still make it back just as much.

I think Samus will be fine. Her recovery with bombs is really slow and easy to predict. Maybe a slightly shorter tether, but she is otherwise easy to handle off stage as long as you aren't afraid to leave the ledge.

 

[Raccoon Chuck]

I can't see Ike losing his walljumps, as he doesn't have the air speed to make it back off an aether. Perhaps his second walljump out of quickdraw will be removed, but that's iffy. The only nerf Ike's recovery might gain is a decrease in hitbox protection during aether.
As for Mario, perhaps Up Special will no longer give him such a free sweet spot recover, or his Wall Jump out of Up Special will have input timing closer to Melee, as that would add some genuine challenge to hitting the window.

 

[Narpas_sword]

As a PAL player, i find marios ability to walljump out of upb silly already.

Why can't anyone else?

I mean, samus can walljump out of screw attack in her games..

I think Samus will be fine. Her recovery with bombs is really slow and easy to predict. Maybe a slightly shorter tether, but she is otherwise easy to handle off stage as long as you aren't afraid to leave the ledge.

That's what i think too.

 

[t3chn0g0at]

I don't think Mario's recovery is super broken. Just jump out and hit him while he's floating out there using his cape and down b. It takes him a fairly long time to actually recover.

 

[hotdogturtle]

The biggest problem with Mario's recovery is that the hitbox (or the priority or something) is super ****ed up and practically teleports through the stage to hit you, and can often hit through your shield.

 

[Mr.Pickle]

The hitbox on his up b is pretty decent. Except for the last couple frames, then it becomes massive. It also has to do with how much control you have of the angle of the up b, and how amazingly easy up b walljump is.....I honestly could keep going, but the point is, mario's recovery is amazing.

 

[Meme]

I imagine Mario could just have some restriction on when he can wall jump out of Up b, not necessarily melee timing but just as Mario is at the peak of his up B.

For Mewtwo think it'll be pretty much as /Apple said, GFooChmbey kind of said what I expect it to happen to Samus.

 

[Celestis]

I'm excited for these recovery changed. I predict none of the melee vets will have recoveries lowered and more then their Melee versions.

 

[Mera Mera]

I know it's not uniform that Charizard should get to keep his jumps after gliding and Pit doesn't. The reason I don't think Pit should is because of how fast his glide is. So I'm thinking more in terms of close range recovery than long.

Just so you know Charizard currently (3.02) loses his remaining jumps the moment he starts a glide. I think this was a change made in 2.6 iirc.

 

[mimgrim]

All I can think of after reading that blogpost is the rise of the triple D.

 

[Chevy]

Lets be honest, she's always been a good recover-er. .

Except for Smash64, where she has the worst recovery in the game, on top of worst everything else, poor Samus. Agreed on your points though. I think if we can't get Melee tethers it should be uniform for all z-tethers to only be one per airtime. Anything after that just tether fails, opening up the option to do a grapple boost once your tether is eaten.

 

[Narpas_sword]

yea, by 'always' i meant 'she was good at it in melee' =p

Melee tethers,, but you can aim them diagonally (like in super metroid) would be awesome.

i wish samus could aim her charge shot too =(

 

[Chevy]

yea, by 'always' i meant 'she was good at it in melee' =p

Melee tethers,, but you can aim them diagonally (like in super metroid) would be awesome.

i wish samus could aim her charge shot too =(

Take tether away, but she can fire charge shot down to boost herself up. Also coolest kill in the game. PMDT plz.

 

[batistabus]

I don't think anything as drastic as meta knight's changes from brawl to pm is required on any character.

Metaknight's PM recovery is still amazing...definitely needs to be toned down. Aside from multiple jumps, he can recover with his up-b (which leads into glide), side-b, down-b, and neutral b.

Hell, I think even Marth needs a recovery nerf. The hang time he got in PM + the reduced ledge occupancy makes him much more difficult to edge-guard. Really wasn't necessary.

 

[proxibomb]

Let's all agree to make Mario's recovery exactly like Smash 64's Mario! Also, I feel as though Yoshi needs the ability to wall jump, but that's just me.

 

[Narpas_sword]

Take tether away, but she can fire charge shot down to boost herself up. Also coolest kill in the game. PMDT plz.

nah, keep grapple beam.

we need to aim up at an airborne enemy to latch on and swing off them.

Also make SA 3 jumps and smaller hops so theyre more like kirby jumping =p

 

[Kerenthar]

I hope they don't nerf Pikachu's recovery... but I recommend the following...
1. Reduce Skull Bash's range.
2. Make it impossible to grab the ledge with Skull Bash.
3. Increase the amount of time Pikachu is in a helpless state after using Skull Bash.

THAT is a nerf, actually (turning an almost useless move in a total useless move)

I am not trying to judge too early but this new point of view is really troublesome. In my own point of view, top tiers has all of them regular and bad recoveries in exchange of other moves and properties; other characters has good recoveries but other lack of good movements. I hope the work of balance recoveries would not tend to make them too closer to top tiers (keep them individuality) and I certainly hope this do not turn into a massive nerfing exercise.

I sincerely wish luck to PMBR in this new approach.

 

[Thor]

Why do people thing Falco has the worst recovery? He really don't. There are a least a handful of characters with worse.

You'd need to name them for me then... Falco's is really really terrible, wosre than the few bad recoveries I can think of. Roy? Nah, got that side+b stall, sick angling of Blazer without charge time, and his has really strong priority [range and favorable hitbox] (pretty sure it breaks most CCs too). Ice Climbers? They can at least get back if they're hit back out once (good luck doing that with Falco if a jump was used). Belay is also somewhat more usable here than Melee. Toon Link's recovery is actually really good and full of mixups if one knows what they are doing, so he's out... Sheik. like ICs, has a chance of getting back on if hit back out again (Small but there) and can transform into Zelda, who can also actually hold her own, even if one is KO'd with this method, while Falco just dies if he is hit back out with no chance of getting back on stage.

Except for Smash64, where she has the worst recovery in the game, on top of worst everything else, poor Samus. Agreed on your points though. I think if we can't get Melee tethers it should be uniform for all z-tethers to only be one per airtime. Anything after that just tether fails, opening up the option to do a grapple boost once your tether is eaten.

No. Smash 64 Samus's recovery is not "the worst recovery in the game", that title proudly belongs to either Link or Captain Falcon, both of whom fall like rocks, have next to zero options to reliably extend it, and both of whom struggle to ever return against a Pikachu fsmash, while Samus can down+b to get some extra distance (it's not Melee but it exists) and who has a good enough sweetspot to where it's actually somewhat difficult to edgeguard her onstage. Her recovery isn't Pikachu's, but it's not Captain Falcon's either, which is something for Samus to be grateful for.

Samus also has a great bair and dair in 64 - I say her dair is better than the dairs of Pikachu (any time), Mario, Yoshi, Fox, Kirby, Luigi, and Jigglypuff (all only when opponent has great SDI). Her bair is just a good move in general in that game. Admittedly she's still low tier, but "worst everything" is pushing it.

Also if the PMBR nerfs Skull Bash they clearly have no idea that Skull Bash is already terrible except as an average to mediocre recovery option (that is honestly rather easily intercepted), and they'd be making it so much worse with those suggested changes that one is almost never going to use it.

 

[NegroCaucasian]

i hope these means some buffs aswell (Falco, Falcon and shiek please!!)

 

[Chevy]

No. Smash 64 Samus's recovery is not "the worst recovery in the game", that title proudly belongs to either Link or Captain Falcon, both of whom fall like rocks, have next to zero options to reliably extend it, and both of whom struggle to ever return against a Pikachu fsmash, while Samus can down+b to get some extra distance (it's not Melee but it exists) and who has a good enough sweetspot to where it's actually somewhat difficult to edgeguard her onstage. Her recovery isn't Pikachu's, but it's not Captain Falcon's either, which is something for Samus to be grateful for.

I don't know enough about 64 to refute it, but I was obviously exaggerating a little. Screw attack goes like the vertical distance of DK's PM up-B. It's just sad. She is the worst character in the game though.

nah, keep grapple beam.

we need to aim up at an airborne enemy to latch on and swing off them.

Also make SA 3 jumps and smaller hops so theyre more like kirby jumping =p

Ok, in ice mode, individual uncharged shots freeze people in place, then you can grapple off of them. Or stand on them, cheeoop.

 

[Narpas_sword]

omgyes. beautiful

 

[QuickRat]

I think this means they are taking those extremely good recoveries and trying to adjust them in order to make some matchups better in terms of balance. I don't see PMBR trying to nerf every one, such as Ness' or DK's ones.

 

[\Apples]

Just so you know Charizard currently (3.02) loses his remaining jumps the moment he starts a glide. I think this was a change made in 2.6 iirc.

Yeah, I play with a solid zard on the regular. I meant his recovery should be left unchanged in that post.

 

[Mr.Pickle]

I could see all the glide characters their glide duration end sooner, that'd be fair. Dk is fine, but idk about ness. I feel like giving it no endlag on upb wasn't the way to go, conditions the player to come back a little sloppy imo. I'd like to see other adjustments to it to make it viable.

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

Sonic needs to stop getting so many spindash moves that he can use after his up-B. I feel like sometimes hitting him after his up-B actually helps him recover.

You know what, there was just plain too many characters who can act after their up-B and get to reuse it if they get hit out of it. If characters like Mewtwo, Snake, and Sonic don't get specialfall after their up-B, they should at least have limited options after using it, so they don't just have a risk-free recovery move that they can use at any point offstage. Also I would honestly bring back the thing from Brawl where Snake (and characters with similar style recoveries) don't regain their up-B if they're grabbed out of using it.

Sonic can't not use b moves after the up b or air dodge anymore...
I think DK's auto snap range after his up B is plain stupid.

 

[Renji64]

Looking forward to how this turns out i do love those moments where your like holy crap how did u make it back.

 

[Phan7om]

Any character who can attack out of their up-b can airdodge out of the IASA frames of the next move they use.

 

[Exodo]

i hope Falco gets a buff in his recovery..

 

[Phaiyte]

I didn't say anything about that. It shouldn't be required that he be hit.

You don't have to hit him to consume his double jump. He already does it himself when he floats. Hitting him causes him to have to recover without his double jump, and he can't hover again until he touches the ground.

 

[Rᴏb]

Any character who can attack out of their up-b can airdodge out of the IASA frames of the next move they use.

G&W can't.

:,(

 

[JOE!]

Nerf Pika's recovery by replacing Skull Bash with this move:

Spoiler

 

[mimgrim]

You'd need to name them for me then... Falco's is really really terrible, wosre than the few bad recoveries I can think of. Roy? Nah, got that side+b stall, sick angling of Blazer without charge time, and his has really strong priority [range and favorable hitbox] (pretty sure it breaks most CCs too). Ice Climbers? They can at least get back if they're hit back out once (good luck doing that with Falco if a jump was used). Belay is also somewhat more usable here than Melee. Toon Link's recovery is actually really good and full of mixups if one knows what they are doing, so he's out... Sheik. like ICs, has a chance of getting back on if hit back out again (Small but there) and can transform into Zelda, who can also actually hold her own, even if one is KO'd with this method, while Falco just dies if he is hit back out with no chance of getting back on stage.

If the Falco player is patient and saves the double jump he can recover reasonably well. Fire Bird is short, yes, but he has a really high DJ. He is also good at recovering vertically better then other characters.

 

[TreK]

I see people who ask that Ivy becomes unable to dair stall.
I am in a place between laughter and fear right now. Laughter because that suggestion is so terrible I can't help but to crackle, and fear because I know peer pressure is the PMBR's worst matchup and if enough people suggest this, it might actually happen.

Okay so if you really need an explanation as to why this suggestion is stupid. Let's assume for a moment Ivysaur can't use har dair. She's forced by design to recover low. Her recovery cannot hit. What do you do ? You edgehog, and you get a free hit every single time, no matter if the Ivysaur is Mew2King or xxxDarkLink95xxx. It would basically be Falcon's recovery, without the option to recover high or to side B. Ivysaur's matchup spread would basically "who's got a killmove or a combo starter from the ledge ? Well those win."
But the worst part about this suggestion is, Ivysaur's dair is not just used for recovery. It has two other uses that would become collateral damage.
The second use is that the mere existence of this move prevents Ivysaur from being a complete sandbag. Her air mobility is way below average, and dair/uair/double jump/nair are her ONLY options against juggles. And while they're not exactly brilliant, these options are sufficient. Juggling Ivysaur is neither too easy or too hard in the current version. Anyone disagrees ? Let me know. I'm a hardcore lurker and I've yet to see anybody complain about how hard it is to juggle Ivysaur so far.
The third use is when Ivysaur is edgeguarding. What Ivysaurs often do is that they jump too early, so their opponents thinks Ivysaur will just miss her edgeguard and they overextend, and then Ivysaur dairs and the timing is now perfect for a bair gimp. It's a very important mindgame in Ivysaur's edgeguard toolset. And edgeguarding is Ivysaur's strength, she's designed to be an edgeguarder. That's her whole business right there.
So let's sum this up. Just so you can finally edgeguard Ivysaur without putting in the work you were expected to put in PM to begin with, you are now also making Ivysaur one of the weakest characters against juggles, and nerfing one of her strengths.

I don't even know what to say anymore. This would be a very, very stupid change. You want a better one ? Here yo go. Ivysaur's recovery is strong because it has both a stall, and a fast up B. It makes it so Ivysaur can wait for an opening and suddenly jump on it. We've established that getting rid or the stall part of it would be the stupidest thing since her new ftilt (more on that topic in my older posts in the Ivysaur boards lmao), let's change her fast up B instead.
Ivysaur's tether pull is really, really fast. I think it lasts 3 frames but don't quote me on that. Making the tether pull slower would be a much, much smarter change. It would get rid of all those whiners, without murdering the whole concept of the character. Her recovery would be in check with everybody else's, without being so bad that you can autopilot against it and win. And more importantly, no collateral damage.

As for the general direction PM is taking, my take is this : I wouldn't say "recoveries in PM are too good", I'd say "some recoveries in PM are too good". The ones that are too good are the exception, not the majority imo.

 

[Star ☆]

If Sonic is to get a recovery nerf, perhaps the range of his midair missed homing attack should be nerfed, as its quite effective at the moment for getting back on stage when he has no double jump.

 

[Thor]

If the Falco player is patient and saves the double jump he can recover reasonably well. Fire Bird is short, yes, but he has a really high DJ. He is also good at recovering vertically better then other characters.

"If the player is patient and saves the double jump [s/]he can recover reasonably well."

Ok that's true if you remove the word Falco, it's not some boon to him.

There are simply times where even if Falco is patient, Falco MUST double jump, because Falco lacks the tools to get back otherwise - but unlike the 4 I will discuss below (ICs, Sheik, Roy, and TL), if he's hit out of his recovery with a decently strong horizontal launcher, it's over.

Also pretty sure there are women who play this game so I added modification to that statement because I'm sure there are competent female Falcos. Or else your "he" was way too ambiguous for me to decidedly attribute it to Falco, not the player. I'd give you the benefit of the doubt, but I'm covering myself if others do and someone decides to get mad about it.

"He has a really high DJ"

That's because he falls like a rock. Also, he's significantly more reliant on it than others (bair Falcon 3 times with Fox at like 70% or so and he'll be back to eat the 4th. Bair Falco three times and he's either at like zero percent or you're going out there as someone like Jiggs to be super certain - 1 is going to be enough above like 60% most of the time).

"He is also good at recovering vertically better then other characters."

Falco's vertical recovery is also lackluster - in comparison with the characters I named earlier, TL can glide toss up -> DJ -> up+b, which is solid distance - and unlike Falco, TL will often be recovering high (if he eats as an example move, Ganon bair at like 60%, he will fly upward if one DIs up, while Falco will fly sort of upward and then down if he DIs up because he falls so fast) so his vertical height is not an issue. Roy's Blazer goes just as high, he's got a solid double jump, and he'll still fly slightly higher than Falco if hit with this theoretical Ganon bair, so he also doesn't need to recover as high (admittedly he's hosed too if he's hit out again, but Blazer tends to be harder to intercept). Ice Climbers rocket upward when hit with Ganon bair, so they don't really need vertical recovery, and unlike Falco if they DI carefully they don't even need their jump most of the time (purely in the sense of getting back on - I agree they're somewhat unprotected, but really no less protected than Falco is during Fire Bird). Sheilda's recovery is also just better (as of now) - better jump, longer teleport (fine teleport as Sheik), and if the next hit doesn't kill them Zelda can probably DI it so that she can still live. [So I guess ICs are slightly more hosed if they have to recover low, but their durability recovering to the sides, and hopefully lack of times they get daired offstage, should more than make up for it.]

Don't get me wrong either - I'm not saying buff Falco's recovery (I mean, yeah it'd be cool if Fire Bird got a small distance buff, and by small I mean like 1.25X distance, maybe even less), but I am saying that Falco is for sure bottom 5 recovery and the flaws in it are enough to make him, in my opinion, worst in game, because if you're read once above 60%, you [should be] done, whereas Roy's blazer gives him surprising flexibility with low startup that's not easy to outprioritize, and TL, Sheik, and ICs are not dead if they are hit with one horizontal launching move after trying to get back (you never see Sheik/TL/ICs side+b off the side of the screen [well, I suppose it has happened very rarely] but you will see Falco Phantasm into the blastline instead of watching him fall to his death, because Falco just can't make it back).

Also I would be irritated if they nerfed Roy's recovery (like, WHY? It's already short-ranged) or Sheik's, but the wording of the OP just made me think they were going to nerf Roy/Falco/Sheik's recovery, and so I made a somewhat sarcastic remark. If people don't want to discuss "Who has the worst recovery?" that's fine, I'll drop it. I think someone would have to lay out which recoveries are strictly worse for me to understand WHY someone's recovery is inferior to Falco's, which hasn't occurred yet, and which is why I remain unconvinced.

 

[InfinityCollision]

Why are we even talking about this ****? It's pretty clear that Falco's recovery does not need a nerf, I'm sure the PMBR isn't that stupid.

 

[Thamauturge]

I sense bad things for my DDD in the future with this news

 

[Pseudomaniac]

I think they're just referring to characters with ridiculously low-risk recoveries like Pit, Diddy Kong and Mewtwo (the worst offenders in my opinion). Most of the cast is probably safe from recovery nerfs.