PMBR says they are redesigning recoveries

[mimgrim]

@Thor I meant to say horizontal recovery, not vertical. And when I said "he" in the first sentence I was indeed referring to Falco. I could understand someone getting the mix-up. But someone getting bent out of shape over it would just be wasting their breath for no reason as it isn't a big deal in the first place and are probably just a paranoid Tumblr "social justice warrior". He doesn;t have the DJ because he falls like a rock, otherwise other FFers would have high ones as well. He has such a high DJ, the highest in the game I believe, because of the distance of his recovery and thuse it is meant to be used in tandem with it. His recovery isn't fantastic, but it isn't awful either.

I sense bad things for my DDD in the future with this news

I sense only good things. Triple D lives off of gimps and this change to recoveries, which I doubt are going to happen to everyone, will make him all that better. I doubt he himself is going to see a change to his recovery since both of the ways he recovers are fair and are rarely complained about and I doubt his current gameplay will be changed all that much either since he is one of the better made characters.

I see only a rise from the Triple D with this change.

 

[Problem2]

Here's how I would change recoveries.

- Z-tethers only get 1 tether per air time.
- all tethers have even more vulnerability when ledge hogged.
- all glides should have a distance or time based limit before the character falls out of the glide.
- Diddy Kong's barrels shouldn't come out unless you hit him out of the charge.
- If Mewtwo grabs the ledge with his teleport, he shouldn't be able to teleport to the ledge again without first landing on stage.
(keeping his jump after the teleport is also questionable)
- Link should only get 1 or 2 bomb jumps instead of 4.
- PSI magnet stalls should have less return the more you use them in one air time.

 

[thatoneguy1]

Metaknight's PM recovery is still amazing...definitely needs to be toned down. Aside from multiple jumps, he can recover with his up-b (which leads into glide), side-b, down-b, and neutral b.

Hell, I think even Marth needs a recovery nerf. The hang time he got in PM + the reduced ledge occupancy makes him much more difficult to edge-guard. Really wasn't necessary.

keep that up b distance/hitbox though

 

[ChiePet]

I saw Snake doing Up B, Mash Down B to blow up on himself (which sends him upwards), then Up B again.

These are the kinds of things that they're talking about, getting rid of these recovery methods.

 

[Mischief]

^ I agree but this tech is rather hard to pull off and snake takes a lot of damage from it. As a snake main I feel like saying this. I agree snakes recovery should maybe lose some distance, but overall he has a very slow and predictable recovery. Just watch Prof Pro vs any Marth main, Snake can easily get gimped on recovery. I just hope he doesn't get nerfed too much.

 

[HiroProtagonist]

Oh what a time to be a Ganon main B^)

 

[Deleted member]

Roy's recovery is already bad, so this probably doesn't effect me.

It's great for the people that wanted harder recovery and other characters though.

 

[Scuba Steve]

I think DK's auto snap range after his up B is plain stupid.

DK needs exactly zero recovery nerfs. DK is balls easy to edgeguard already. The only thing that makes his super crappy recovery somewhat passable is that he's a fatty and will live a long time with good DI.

 

[Pseudomaniac]

Also I'm kind of hoping the PMBR does something about annoying ledgestalls (Mewtwo I'm looking at you). There is no reason why infinite or near-infinite ledgestalls should be in the game.

 

[MysteryRevengerson]

It's interesting that Lucas can Magnet Stall and Ness can't. It would be possible to keep some momentum (As Ness' does) and moving with Magnet is big part of Lucas' approach game. So limiting the momentum boost to one magnet WOULD help to alleviate some of the distance he gains. Nerfs or not as long as Lucas still functions as Lucas ON STAGE than his recovery isn't too big a deal to me personally.

Lucas didn't become my favorite character because of his recovery, after all.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

I saw Snake doing Up B, Mash Down B to blow up on himself (which sends him upwards), then Up B again.

These are the kinds of things that they're talking about, getting rid of these recovery methods.

you're sooo vulernable doing that. Plus, it takes some thinking too, as where to DI to.

 

[Phan7om]

Yep, on the snake recovery topic for starters you can intercept it, second if he plants it onstage/you it wont work right, and three you can footstool it and hes screwed.

 

[Vashimus]

other than changing up the limits on tethers, i dont know what they can do to hurt samus without making her recovery super bad.

Lets be honest, she's always been a good recover-er. With weight she survives. With bombs a decent double, floaty, and Screw attack and tether mixup she recovers. and that's melee.

The thing is, even if her tether got limited to 1-2, shed still make it back.
if her tether also got shortened, shed still make it back (though, it will take longer)
taking longer to get back isn't exactly 'upping the pace' of the game. reducing samus tether length = more time bombing = more recovery time. she'll still make it back just as much.

Problem isn't that Samus can recover, it's that tether overshadows every other option she has. Thanks to auto snapping and its length, it lets her recover from awkward angles that she wouldn't have dreamed of coming back from in Melee, there's very little risk in using it, and in 90% of cases, is better than Screw Attack.

 

[Scuba Steve]

Zair tethers in general do that. How many times do you see a good Lucas opt to use his Up-b rather than his tether?

 

[menotyou135]

IMO, one of the the biggest and simplest things they could do for recoveries is simply nerf the sweet spot range. It feels like I can sweet spot the edge with certain characters from the moon at times. Sweet spotting should be somewhat difficult.

 

[Rᴏb]

IMO, one of the the biggest and simplest things they could do for recoveries is simply nerf the sweet spot range. It feels like I can sweet spot the edge with certain characters from the moon at times. Sweet spotting should be somewhat difficult.

Being able to do it backwards is also really dumb.

 

[Scuba Steve]

Being able to do it backwards is also really dumb.

I don't get why so many people say this. Most all of the relevant Melee characters could do this as well

 

[Narpas_sword]

Problem isn't that Samus can recover, it's that tether overshadows every other option she has. Thanks to auto snapping and its length, it lets her recover from awkward angles that she wouldn't have dreamed of coming back from in Melee, there's very little risk in using it, and in 90% of cases, is better than Screw Attack.

At those angles, you could still make it back a lot in melee. you just needed an extra bomb jump, grapple something low, let the tether pop you up and then Screw attack. Maybe need a walljump.

Most neutral stages you don't have a problem. and if you cant make it in melee, there arent many situations you can make it in PM.

Second, if you tether from the max range, your mixup options are very limited. so, the edgeguarder shouldn't have a problem.

 

[Rᴏb]

I don't get why so many people say this. Most all of the relevant Melee characters could do this as well

It wasn't anywhere near as prevalent though. Also, a lot characters look like they have more reach while they're backwards.

 

[mimgrim]

Being able to do it backwards is also really dumb.

If by dumb you mean good then I agree.

 

[Rᴏb]

If by dumb you mean good then I agree.

If by good you mean effective then I agree.

 

[SunJester]

You have to be careful when nerfing recoveries as to not effect a character's onstage game.

I don't mean, "nerf" their onstage game, the last thing you want to do is fundamentally change how a character plays. Like making Mewtwo's teleport put him into special fall, would severely change how he plays. Characters like Pit, ROB, Pikachu, Zelda, Peach, Kirby and Sonic (might be forgetting some) all use recovery moves as offensive options. (I'm not counting characters like DK and Bowser because no one thinks their recoveries are good).

That being said, what's best for PM is what's best for PM. If Pit not being able to jump out of glide is the only way to tone down his recovery, than so be it. It would just be nice if characters could keep the offensive utility of their moves, but lose some of the recovering ability.

 

[Mischief]

The characters with crazy recovery usually have insanely good onstage presence as well. Almost all the characters in Pm are super swoll and have insanely strong and quick moves as well as awesome projectiles. Loosing a few options outof up bs and glides might cause a meta change but it ccertainly doesn't mean those characters all of a sudden have limited options.

 

[5ully]

Idk about a complete nerf too all. But i think Wolf's recovery needs a very slight buff. Now before people jump on me for saying that. Yes hes a spacie, and his UpB goes the farthest (i think dont know 100%) but look at the knock back on Fox and Falco's UpB. it does a pretty decent push. I hear in past versions Wolfs KB on his UpB was really good and almost too good, so i'm just going from my knowledge and not for whatever trauma everyone else went through. Now, here are a few things id like to see IF they just so happen to buff some recoveries. (these are separate ideas so i dont want all of these at the same time.)

1. Let it carry again like in Brawl. When i played wolf in Brawl i absolutely LOVED this mechanic, in fact i used it often as a combo starter and the ending kick felt great. The can negate from the great KB on the ending kick but the dragging yes.
2. Buff the KB again. 'ERRMERRGERD IT WAS 2 STRONK #2MANYEZMODESPIKES #PLZNERF' Lol yes i know i saw a video where the knock back was insanely good. But what im saying is that make the knock back like GDorf's DownB but not as strong. Have the first few frames have a hard wind effect like before but the rest knock upward like fox or Falco (not sure if this makes any sense to anyone but me).
3. Make the final kick have strong KB. Keep the same UpB as before, BUT for the final hit give good knock back. So at higher percentages the wind effect will actually mean something and push them into the final kick.

So those are my ideas. They may have major flaws in them or just show favoritism so id like some input if possible.

 

[Mischief]

Wolf is already super good.

 

[5ully]

Wolf is already super good.

i completely agree. it was just a small suggestion using alot of words. lol

 

[InfinityCollision]

Wolf doesn't need a recovery buff. Wolf doesn't need any buffs.

I'd prefer to keep backwards sweetspotting.

 

[menotyou135]

If backwards sweet spotting is kept, it needs to have at least half the range of a regular sweet spot. I agree that it seems like some characters get more sweet spot range backwards than forward, though I think this is just an illusion caused by the angle the character is positioned at.

 

[GP&B]

I think the range of backwards ledgegrabbing is something that the PMBR hasn't been able to fully adjust hence why characters seem to grab at forever away.

 

[Kidneyjoe]

Can someone please explain to me the significance of removing backwards sweetspotting? If you're facing the wrong way you can just reverse your up B. Is there some scenario I'm just not thinking of where a backwards sweetspot is somehow advantages over a normal sweetspot?

 

[mimgrim]

Can someone please explain to me the significance of removing backwards sweetspotting? If you're facing the wrong way you can just reverse your up B. Is there some scenario I'm just not thinking of where a backwards sweetspot is somehow advantages over a normal sweetspot?

Recovering from under a stage. Like say you are Roy and are under the stage a little bit where the only way to recover is facing away from the stage. And B-reversing won't help. It's rare, but it happens.

 

[Rᴏb]

Can someone please explain to me the significance of removing backwards sweetspotting? If you're facing the wrong way you can just reverse your up B. Is there some scenario I'm just not thinking of where a backwards sweetspot is somehow advantages over a normal sweetspot?

Some reverse ledgegrab boxes are potentially larger than the normal ledgegrab boxes on certain characters because the latter can't be modified (to my knowledge). So we can end up with a melee char getting their abysmal ledgegrab boxes ported on to them while retaining a longer range reverse ledgegrab box. I believe Fox is an example of this (someone feel free to correct me because I'm not 100% sure).

What's also advantageous about reverse sweetspotting is that it gives the person recovering an additional option while giving the person edgeguarding one less.

I think restoring the ability to reverse sweetspot to the melee vets that already had that ability is okay for the sake of consistency, but giving ALL characters this ability doesn't sit right with me.

 

[Scuba Steve]

I think restoring the ability to reverse sweetspot to the melee vets that already had that ability is okay for the sake of consistency, but giving ALL characters this ability doesn't sit right with me.

This sounds like a indirect way of saying, "becuz maylay"

 

[Rᴏb]

This sounds like a indirect way of saying, "becuz maylay"

If you're trying to port a melee character's kit over into PM, I think it makes sense to port every aspect possible that isn't horribly unbalanced. I'm not against revoking the ability to reverse sweetspot for any of the melee characters that could in melee, but until someone can provide a compelling argument for it, I have no reason to support that notion.

But please man, I could have easily been a **** and said "bcuz melee" when you said this:

I don't get why so many people say this. Most all of the relevant Melee characters could do this as well

But I figured I'd actually contribute to the discussion instead.

 

[mimgrim]

Every character should have a reverse sweetspot or no character should. It wouldn't sit well with me if every character didn't have it because it is a useful mechanic and deserves to be global. It's bad enough that it is that way in Melee currently, but can't do anything about that. It would be a step backwards to only allow the Melee characters to have a reverse sweet spot in P:M, imo.

 

[Player -0]

For sweetspotting while reversed you have to:
1. Actually sweetspot or get knocked to your death.
2. Do it during the end of your down B.
3. Not get edgehogged.

It also adds things like CF or someone Up-B'ing facing away from the stage to knock someone away while recovering.

 

[Exodo]

Wario should get 3 little jump farts, that would be fun

 

[Mischief]

There is a reason some characters, take fox, need a reverse up b. What happens if fox is below the stage and yet facing away from the ledge? He has to up b upwards, or else he won't be get onstage, but unless he has a reverse he will still miss the edge. Some characters, like marth or Falcon, can turn around during their up bs and so they don't need a reverse ledge grab, but for some characters it is very important.

This is why both fox and Falco also have a reverse up b in melee.

 

[Vashimus]

At those angles, you could still make it back a lot in melee. you just needed an extra bomb jump, grapple something low, let the tether pop you up and then Screw attack. Maybe need a walljump.

Most neutral stages you don't have a problem. and if you cant make it in melee, there arent many situations you can make it in PM.

Second, if you tether from the max range, your mixup options are very limited. so, the edgeguarder shouldn't have a problem.

That only proved my second point. What took more effort to get back before is now covered with a single option. I understand this was the best the PMBR could do with Brawl tethers at the time, but it just feels incredibly brainless to me.

Edgeguarders shouldn't have a problem with any recovery in the game. On paper.

 

[Narpas_sword]

Here's where you're not expanding your thought.

if there's an easy recovery that the player will likely take. half your job predicting their recovery option is done for you.

My initial point was that if samus gets a shorter rage tether, shes just going to bomb jump closer so she can use it (stalling time)

Peoples main ***** was that they hate the recoveries because 'it wastes so much time'
shorterning the tether (unless to like tinks range) is going to slow the recovery more.