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Please critique my doc

St. Viers

Smash Champion
Joined
May 15, 2006
Messages
2,409
Location
Boston MA
video1:
0:10--never pill that close--you could easily have been punished far worse than that
0:16--same deal, space you pills...also, using uptilt at low percents isn't the best option--he isn't mario
0:24--try not to be above marth on platforms--you got down safely, but simply falling though it first would have been better
0:30-0:45: poor spacing there with the jab, though not much you can do when they CC it. After you knocked him off, he shouldn't have gotten back on. Don't be afraid to stay by the edge when people are recovering--specially if they go for the cloud.
1:04--what was that? Messing up on getting to the ledge against marth leads to punishment--in this case loss of stock.
1:28-1:32: using you double jump and then Airdodging is never a good idea, espciallay that high above the ground, and that close to marth--were you trying to get on the platform?
1:36--rolling through marth is never a good idea--except to get severly punished later on for doing that
1:48-2:03--why not drop down and regrab, or even just get off quicker--you were taking too long just hanging on the edge. Then you roll past him off the edge, and get hit...and proceed to stand on a platform above marth again XD
2:38 or so: rolled into him again, this time not even through him. Try running, or simply walking to get places. Walk->shield is often safer than rolling.

more stuff, good use of pills, ending in a f-air offstage... >_<

generally, I'd say you need to work on a few things there.
1. SO you're hanging on the ledge...
This is important, as if led to most of your problems. You can quick get up, attack, roll, and jump--you used these, but got punished for them, because they all are rather telegraphed and punishable. Instead, learn to drop from the ledge, and use your second jump to either regrab, or to use an aerial--d-air, and u-air are the most useful

2. Learn to wavedash, I guess...
Not only is wavedashing off the ledge useful, but out of shield wavedashing is one of the best ways to punish marth.

3. Jump-cancel your grabs!

4. Work on better spacing--you were trying to challenge marth from above, and from marth's optimal range alot...Dash attacks only work until he stops tryign to f-smash you out of them...
 

SpruceTengu

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Apr 10, 2007
Messages
269
Location
Eastern MA
A couple notes after watching your videos.

Practice your movement and tech speed first. Alot of your attacks and movement seem kind of incoherent and there isn't alot of unity to your play. Kills come from somewhat lucky hits and combos are nearly nonexistant. Although its hard to combo consistently (though not that horrible once you get in on a Marth for punishment) this is definitely something that needs some work.

With that in mind, I'd say practice these, and then use them to get a more aggressive attack plan. You missed alot of opportunities in the matches I watched, mainly because you weren't "getting there" fast enough and knowing which tools were appropriate for what situations. This will be good to learn, and I'm certain that myself and alot of the much more capable Docs on these forums would be glad to fill you in on specifics.

Slightly more specific stuff:

Work on pillgame. Practice fulljump pills, doublejump pills, turning pills, pills into wavelands, etc. These are all really helpful ways of varying your pillgame so you can keep a constant pressure on your opponent. This will help you in being more aggressive as well as having a tighter defense.

Also look into Jabgame. I saw some jabbing, but little came of it, so make sure you can jab out of SHFFL'd aerials, jab into grab, jab into smashes, etc. This is also an important area in Doc play.

Overall, try to develop some better movement speed; you seem pretty tied down right now which will prevent you from doing what you want. Especially against a Marth, a Doc needs to be able to move so he's not backed into a position he cant get himself out of, and also to punish and make use of the opponent's mistakes and weaknesses when they arise.

Hope this helps, man. Keep up the good work.
 

SpruceTengu

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Yea son we should be chillin =D

I'm in Needham, so east of Wellesley, northwest of Boston by a bit, right down the pike. But yeah we should meet up; i've been playing only with my local kids and a small crew in worcester.
 

elvenarrow3000

Smash Master
Joined
Jul 22, 2007
Messages
3,308
Okay, second link, it's marked as round five on Final Destination.

Way to not have any audio...

Don't airdodge after Marth uthrows you. You might avoid the immediate hit, but Marth is going to destroy you for being helpless in the air. Use your cape to stall, try to break through with the dair and if you're going to airdodge, at least do so downwards.

You seem to have a few movement issues and spacing issues... just because Marth isn't immediately on top of you doesn't mean it's safe for you to throw pills recklessly. Against a character like Marth, who can slice through all of your projectiles, you have to at least fulljump your pills so you keep mobile.

Bthrow really isn't your best option against Marth. You're not going to kill him with it until like... 160%, so until then, stick with dthrow combos instead. Also, if you do bthrow, then at least go to edgeguard. Pills aren't going to kill Marth.

You need to follow up. You're not going to get many openings against Marth so you have to make them count. You can't just throw pills around and expect good things to happen.

Your wavedashes look a little jerky. Are you sure you're doing them right?
 

Neverender

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Dec 12, 2007
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You really need to stop SH pilling.
Do full jump> Pill> Waveland.
It's alot more safe and you can space well by doing that.
 

SpruceTengu

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Well said, Dogy. I completely agree. I used to SH pill way too f*cking much, but i learned the lesson well not to outright stop. This actually brings me to a question I have regarding SH pill; are they considered preferable against Falcon? I've seen some sick docs play against amazing falcons and they avoid FJ pill like the ****in' plague, is that because of doc's vulnerability in the air to Falcon's... beastage?



Way to not have any audio...
Calm down, man. Put on some music or something.


Edit: Typos >_>'
 

Dogysamich

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guess what? It depends. Against falcon, you just dont want to throw a crapton of pills period unless he's not moving for some odd reason.


 

Neverender

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Practice wavedashing then. You want to be able to wavedash with a flow.

Dogy: Lol sorry dude. But if you actually watched the vid pretty much every pill was a SH pill <,,<
 

JPOBS

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didnt read what others had to say but the most obviosu and easiest correctable thing you were doing (or didnt do) was l-canceling.

Your l-cancling is very inconsistent. at first i thought you couldnt do it but then i saw you l-cancel a few and went "oh...he does know lol"

Yea, L-canceling is the one technique that you ALWAYS want to do. There is never a time wen NOT l-canceling is more beneficial than l-cancelling. so yea, its pretty much the most important tech, Perfect it, then work on what everyone else has said. ^__^
 

JPOBS

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and imo te best way to learn when to wavedash is to ALWAYS wavedash.
you dont know how to use it now so I'd say start by making wavedash your only method of movement.

that way you'll get a good idea on the range and distance of the wavedash and then you can start to use it more effectively and no longer just use it constantly.
 

elvenarrow3000

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I don't think you should always use the wavedash, just learn to do it until you can pretty much do it in your sleep and you'll naturally see when you need to use it. Don't forget about the dashdance though.

And JPOBS, you clearly have never seen the clip of Peach missing an L-cancel to avoid a grab.
 

#HBC | Mac

Nobody loves me
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Yea son we should be chillin =D

I'm in Needham, so east of Wellesley, northwest of Boston by a bit, right down the pike. But yeah we should meet up; i've been playing only with my local kids and a small crew in worcester.
wtf, I go to school in worcester... what crew do you speak of, how come i do not know you, wtf,
 

JPOBS

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I don't think you should always use the wavedash, just learn to do it until you can pretty much do it in your sleep and you'll naturally see when you need to use it. Don't forget about the dashdance though.

And JPOBS, you clearly have never seen the clip of Peach missing an L-cancel to avoid a grab.
yea the wavedash thing was only so that he could learn to do it in his sleep. by doing it constantly at first he'll learn much faster then he can apply it as see fit.

LOL REALLY? i must see this. link?
 

SpruceTengu

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Spruce we are both so interconnected. We both know Jesse (Jiggz main?), but who do you play with at Worcester? Is it kids from WPI... like SH3L and TRAP?
Truth, we are interconnected, but no, I haven't been playing with either of them. I'd freakin' love to, though.. maybe I should get in touch. I've been playing with a samus main named D-Pixel and some of his homies down there. Let us--in all seriousness-- have a worcester smashfest sometime. It's not that bad of a drive for me, and i'm not finding much in the Boston area. : (
 

#HBC | Mac

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Truth, we are interconnected, but no, I haven't been playing with either of them. I'd freakin' love to, though.. maybe I should get in touch. I've been playing with a samus main named D-Pixel and some of his homies down there. Let us--in all seriousness-- have a worcester smashfest sometime. It's not that bad of a drive for me, and i'm not finding much in the Boston area. : (
Do you know where WPI is? And where in worcester do your friends live?
 

Dogysamich

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you guys are discussing an 8 minute drive? Die in a fire.

I wish i had a 30 min drive to the nearest smasher. Or hell, an hour drive. XD
 

SpruceTengu

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Spruce you should come through to one of our smashfests at some point and time. It's always nice meeting Doc mains.
Yeaaaa sorry I haven't made any of those. I'm either busy with school or martial arts thisandthats. This weekend (wasn't there somethin' sweet going on in CT? Zed invited me...) i had the latter, and.. yeah. I'll talk to some of the NYers and ask, tho, when we could get together.

Speaking of Doc mains.. you and I should play teams : P
 

Roman.

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Yeaaaa sorry I haven't made any of those. I'm either busy with school or martial arts thisandthats. This weekend (wasn't there somethin' sweet going on in CT? Zed invited me...) i had the latter, and.. yeah. I'll talk to some of the NYers and ask, tho, when we could get together.

Speaking of Doc mains.. you and I should play teams : P
you should come to me, i live closer =P
 

otg

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On my 5th 4 Loko and still ****** you.
Yeaaaa sorry I haven't made any of those. I'm either busy with school or martial arts thisandthats. This weekend (wasn't there somethin' sweet going on in CT? Zed invited me...) i had the latter, and.. yeah. I'll talk to some of the NYers and ask, tho, when we could get together.

Speaking of Doc mains.. you and I should play teams : P
lol we'll see. I think there is actually something going on in NYC this wednesday, but I'm smashing all the time.

As for Double Doc teams........ yeah. I'm sure Dogy has a whole bunch to say about that lol.

you should come to me, i live closer =P
Yeah but like... me and Spruce KNOW PEOPLE MAN! lol.
 

SpruceTengu

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haha yea, from what I 've seen doc teams totally blow. (No offense Dogy/$mac). I think Doc does a horrible job complimenting.. err.. himself. He can often play a very one-sided role on a team, and when theres no one to pick up the other half, things can go awry. BUT, my argument was more for the fun (and/or baller)-factor.
 

Dogysamich

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no offense taken.

Aside from the gimmick of it, double doc is kinda bad. I mean, if both of you are doc mains, you can get away with it, but dear god.

You do get some kool *** perks though, like team chaingrabs. That **** is just hilarious.

Doc/Mario is sooooooo much better, and you can still do the same double doc bull****.
 

Tyser

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Uhhh, Im going to guess that you cant wavedash or something. I watched a little of the first video and I think I saw a couple failed wavelands and maybe one wavedash maybe. :S Learn wavedashing.
 

St. Viers

Smash Champion
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so true, doc is the only toon with which I can beat 3 human teamed ganons w/ team attack off ^_^
 

#HBC | Mac

Nobody loves me
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what you should do is come play me when i get back to school. or atleast telll me when you know of people playing in the area.
 
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