PKAY FIAH! ~ Ness MU Discussion [INDEX PAGE + Various Discussions]

[_clinton]

Falco can chain Ness 2 times before Ness' Nair will save him from my exp...but Falco's got his dash attack + usmash combo...or hell just an usmash...to work with the chains...

I'm pretty sure Nair trades with the dash attack...but not sure on the usmash

At least Falco has to come in close...and Ness' duck does get him under that reflector of Falco's...as well as the blaster...

Ness' Bthrow=103%...however with proper DI...120 or so...
Bair=100
Uair=114

Falco now with all of his KO moves that I can think of...
Usmash=119
Dsmash=150 (low horizontal angle)
Fsmash=106
Bair=137
Uair=152 (Falco can chase vertical prey well you know)
Dtilt=155 (not much to worry about)
Utilt=159 (has other uses)

Plus he has his Dair spike...and his Fair which may not work on Ness that well IMO for screwing his recovery...Nair is just as *** as Ness' Fair almost...

I feel it is easier for Ness to ledge guard Falco then it is for Falco to ledge guard Ness...but I feel Falco sets up better...

 

[Uffe]

I wish my friend would have used his Falco against my Ness. The last match ended horribly wrong. I chose D3 and should have lost but predicted his return to the stage and f-smashed him. Still, I kept getting pivot grabbed, the Gatling Kick and other BS a good Falco can pull off. Darn smash attacks.

 

[xoxokev]

Falco can chain grab Ness up to ~30%, which should be about 4-5 dthrows... and if he gets you to the edge and spikes, you can meteor cancel... but that only gets you so far, if the Falco interrupts your PK Thunder recovery enough, it could mean a free stock

Also, Ness' crouch does partially save him from Falco's lasers, but during Ness' crouching animation, he turns his head to the side. When Ness turns his head, Falco's lasers can hit him

 

[_clinton]

Falco's chain grab can be broken by around 2 of them though with an Nair...

 

[g2g4l]

Hey i need the Match up ratio for bowser for the Match guide i was thinking around (us:him) 70:30

 

[PKNintendo]

Woah there doggies. Falco now? Okay.

 

[Xsyven]

Whoa-- why are there two matchup threads? And why did I get two PM's from two different people asking me to sticky them at the same time?

 

[Gaussis]

Rofl.

Anywho, about the Falco matchup. The most important thing he can do here is the chaingrab for damage. Falco's spike can be overcome by meteor-cancelling the spike with your double jump, then PKT for recovery. He can interrupt it, but he doesn't have a large frame of time. Besides, he risks his own stock if he goes too far down.

Aside from that, there isn't much that he can do to Ness that is unique to him. I had at first placed this as a 65:45 due to lasers hindering his air game, but even then it doesn't hinder Ness too much to even be placed at this. 6:4 if you ask me.

 

[Masky]

Whoa-- why are there two matchup threads? And why did I get two PM's from two different people asking me to sticky them at the same time?

This thread has been around for much longer... though I don't like either of the threads that much

 

[Xsyven]

I'm gonna keep this one up, mainly due to the fact that it has 70 pages of information, whereas the other thread only has a few.

If I may ask though, PKNintendo, will you link to the other thread in the first post please? Thanks. That'll kill two birds with one stone.

 

[xoxokev]

Rofl.

Anywho, about the Falco matchup. The most important thing he can do here is the chaingrab for damage. Falco's spike can be overcome by meteor-cancelling the spike with your double jump, then PKT for recovery. He can interrupt it, but he doesn't have a large frame of time. Besides, he risks his own stock if he goes too far down.

Aside from that, there isn't much that he can do to Ness that is unique to him. I had at first placed this as a 65:45 due to lasers hindering his air game, but even then it doesn't hinder Ness too much to even be placed at this. 6:4 if you ask me.

When you meteor cancel, just make sure you give yourself enough space, otherwise you're looking at a Falco bair in your face (depending, of course, on how well the Falco knows the match-up)

EDIT: FINALLY stickied, congrats

 

[PKNintendo]

Hopefully they won't ignore us.

 

[g2g4l]

Nintendo does 6:4 sound right to you(and that bowser agreed that 65:35 is good so i'm gonna put that in the guide)

 

[PKNintendo]

Nintendo does 6:4 sound right to you(and that bowser agreed that 65:35 is good so i'm gonna put that in the guide)

Yeah. 6-4 for Bowser. Anyone know where the Falco mains are???

 

[Crazy Hobo]

K, I main Falco and second Ness. My Falco is good and Ness I only fool around with when I'm bored. Ness's magnet shield is extremely annoying for Falcos, because it changes the lazer game. Don't use it if they're shooting at you closely, because they'll follow up quickly while you have lag. Fair can generally get by most of Falco's attacks except reflector. Just use ariels and watch out for Usmash. If you can get him off the stage that is good because he has an extremely gimpable recovery.

 

[J4pu]

Vice ***** me with PKfire combos, DJ Nair and some Dairs to eat my shield.
Fair is probably your best tool

 

[xoxokev]

^ Hey I know that guy

 

[_clinton]

K, I main Falco and second Ness. My Falco is good and Ness I only fool around with when I'm bored. Ness's magnet shield is extremely annoying for Falcos, because it changes the lazer game. Don't use it if they're shooting at you closely, because they'll follow up quickly while you have lag. Fair can generally get by most of Falco's attacks except reflector. Just use ariels and watch out for Usmash. If you can get him off the stage that is good because he has an extremely gimpable recovery.

PSI Magnet's lag cancel deals with any shots up close really...personally though...I perfer to just duck most of the laser shots anyway...

Falco's Reflector can be ducked under...which lets Ness take + over all of that lag he has if he misses...

 

[xoxokev]

But I'm pretty sure there is a window in which Falco's lasers can hit Ness while Ness is crouching (when Ness turns his head to the side during the crouch animation)

 

[Gaussis]

Dtilt in between laser shots to avoid that stupid Ness's head-turning situation. It's dumb that he has something like that.

 

[xoxokev]

I agree, it is dumb. Mario has the same situation

 

[saviorslegacy]

I would say the match up is 60 : 40. In Ness's favor.

Ness is a pain for Falco. Mainly for the following reasons: It's hard to CG Ness. His Magnet makes it hard to use lasors. Falco's reflector is pretty much useless against a good Ness (with the exception of reflecting PK Thunder on a recovering Ness.) Ness can get Falco at the ledge. On top of all of this he beats Falco in the air. So yeah... bad match up for Falco me says. :/

 

[thesage]

UMMMMMMM. Cg -> death = bad matchu IMO.

 

[_clinton]

I agree, it is dumb. Mario has the same situation

Mario's situation is worse though...he does it at the start of his duck >_>

UMMMMMMM. Cg -> death = bad matchu IMO.

Still pretty sure Falco can only get 2-3 grabs in before Ness can Nair out of it...

Still...it does lead to a set up for Falco's running attack usmash combo like I said before...

 

[Ref]

Sage is bad at the little things in this game. You should never be CG to spiked learn to meteor cancel....

Keep tap jump on and keep smashing up on the control stick. You'll DJ after falling only a bit. You can also just DI so you never get CG'd to spiked. Or smash DI onto the stage or ledge then tech if DI'ing is to hard..

 

[PKNintendo]

I would say the match up is 60 : 40. In Ness's favor.

Ness is a pain for Falco. Mainly for the following reasons: It's hard to CG Ness. His Magnet makes it hard to use lasors. Falco's reflector is pretty much useless against a good Ness (with the exception of reflecting PK Thunder on a recovering Ness.) Ness can get Falco at the ledge. On top of all of this he beats Falco in the air. So yeah... bad match up for Falco me says. :/

Don't let the Falco mains here you

But Ness does decently well against Falco. Not counterwell but decent.

 

[Popertop]

Sage is bad at the little things in this game. You should never be CG to spiked learn to meteor cancel....

Keep tap jump on and keep smashing up on the control stick. You'll DJ after falling only a bit. You can also just DI so you never get CG'd to spiked. Or smash DI onto the stage if DI'ing is to hard..

I'm pretty sure if they find DI'ng hard SDI'ing is gonna be way harder.

 

[Ref]

I know but sage is that weird kind of guy... He finds the easy things hard and the hard easy.

 

[Popertop]

Oh one of those. I see.
gohsioagvwiovgwiouehgowehog

 

[xoxokev]

Still, I've said this somewhere before, meteor canceling can only get you so far. And if you recover incorrectly, it can cost you a stock. AND even when you do recover, it's like Falco just got a free 40-something % on you... this match-up makes me sad... especially since none of Ness' smash attacks come out as fast as Falco's dsmash

 

[§witch]

Ness most definitely does not have the advantage. Falco can still CG him for a few throws, gatling combo, and still be able to nair him out of dthrow. So, falco gets a good 50+% every stock. Magnet isn't really a big worry for me, the bucket is far better and it doesn't trouble me much vs GnW, use lasers intelligently. Falco out-ranges ness on the ground, and I think our bair trades with your fair, I may be wrong though. Ness can't get around lasers in the air, and ftilt beats out all of ness' ground approaches, this is definitely a hard match-up for you guys.

 

[PKNintendo]

Ness most definitely does not have the advantage. Falco can still CG him for a few throws, gatling combo, and still be able to nair him out of dthrow. So, falco gets a good 50+% every stock. Magnet isn't really a big worry for me, the bucket is far better and it doesn't trouble me much vs GnW, use lasers intelligently. Falco out-ranges ness on the ground, and I think our bair trades with your fair, I may be wrong though. Ness can't get around lasers in the air, and ftilt beats out all of ness' ground approaches, this is definitely a hard match-up for you guys.

Too true. Bucket>>>Magnet. With psi magnet cancel, it makes using the move less dangerous. It essentially allows Ness to cancel into a shield or a spot-dodge.

To be honest, Falco doesn't completely outrange Ness by much. Definitely not gamebreaking level. (*cough Snake) You CANNOT use psi magnet cancel in the air just so you know, In my opinion Ness aerials>Falco's by far.

 

[Masky]

You can use psi magnet cancel in the air just so you know, so you can actually get by the laser spam.

No you can't.

I like Falco because he's pretty light and easily bthrowed

 

[PKNintendo]

No you can't.

I like Falco because he's pretty light and easily bthrowed

Im pretty sure you can. Oh well.
Guess I was wrong, my mistake Switch.

 

[g2g4l]

The laser's can be somewhat tricky but the going above them or aerial dodging should fix most of it. And even if you mess up what is it maybe 12-16% Dmg. the chain grab is annoying but not to horrible Nair lets us trade a good 12% after 3 or 4 throws. And even with Metor canceling he can still disperse the thunder and take a free stock so it IS very dangerous. Sorry but Bair doesn't trade with Fair i'm sure in very rare and weird angles it might but Fair should win most of the time. On the ground you game is solid but not that amazing. And with the speed and range of our own tilt + our phenomenal grabs we can very much hold our own on the ground if not take the advantage.


So in my eyes it is 55:45 Ness advantage

 

[neomadgic]

I've been facing many Falcos lately, and I have to believe the matchup is in Falco's favor.

Ness users are basically starting at a 45% handicap because of Falco's CG. Magnet is good, but you can't possibly say that's a solution against lasering, because it's not. If you approach with aerials, you can't magnet up SH lasers without getting punished because you can't cancel the lag in the air. Approach on the ground will give Falco an advantage because he has a better ground game than Ness.

 

[xoxokev]

I've been facing many Falcos lately, and I have to believe the matchup is in Falco's favor.

Ness users are basically starting at a 45% handicap because of Falco's CG. Magnet is good, but you can't possibly say that's a solution against lasering, because it's not. If you approach with aerials, you can't magnet up SH lasers without getting punished because you can't cancel the lag in the air. Approach on the ground will give Falco an advantage because he has a better ground game than Ness.

^This. The 45% handicap is so true. Good Falco's can hurt

 

[Gaussis]

Careful with what you say. You would only get the 45% handicap if you were to get grabbed before actually inflicting damage. After that, the grabs become less useful. Before getting grabbed, it would be in your best interest to inflict as much damage as possible. It's bad, but the grab has to happen first (and I'm sure that you can avoid it playing safe, much like IC).

The only thing that disturbs me is the instant edgeguard that Falco gets if he grabs Ness. Unlike DDD, Falco knocks Ness downwards if he is successful with a dair. Meteor canceling helps, but it puts Ness in a bad spot.

I feel that the matchup is too heavily stage dependent. Otherwise, the CG would be viable in all situations.

 

[PKNintendo]

The laser's can be somewhat tricky but the going above them or aerial dodging should fix most of it. And even if you mess up what is it maybe 12-16% Dmg. the chain grab is annoying but not to horrible Nair lets us trade a good 12% after 3 or 4 throws. And even with Metor canceling he can still disperse the thunder and take a free stock so it IS very dangerous. Sorry but Bair doesn't trade with Fair i'm sure in very rare and weird angles it might but Fair should win most of the time. On the ground you game is solid but not that amazing. And with the speed and range of our own tilt + our phenomenal grabs we can very much hold our own on the ground if not take the advantage.


So in my eyes it is 55:45 Ness advantage

Woah there. Ness will never have the advantage against a top tier character.

Just giving you a heads up.

 

[_clinton]

Woah there. Ness will never have the advantage against a top tier character.

Just giving you a heads up.

The boards would run red I guess...really now...its not like Ness can't hold his own vs. most of the tops in this game anyway...