PKAY FIAH! ~ Ness MU Discussion [INDEX PAGE + Various Discussions]

[xoxokev]

Most of it depends on the player, not the character... but if they were equal in skill, I'd say the top tier characters have the advantage

 

[_clinton]

Is there anyone who is really equal in skill?

 

[Uffe]

_clinton: UndrDog and Jasona. UndrDog uses Pit while Jasona uses Samus and both play each other a lot and so they must have equal skill against each other. I'm trying to think who'd be equal skill against me here. I use both Ness and Falco.

 

[wangston]

I'm not trying to discredit you by any means but when you say Ness can break the chain grab, what kind of grab is falco using and is the person using perfect timing. It was once thought that snake could break the chain grab with a nade but with a perfectly timed walking grab snake has no chance.

lol i didn't realize how late this was in the conversation i just read the first couple of post.

 

[xoxokev]

It's difficult to find two players equal in skill level, but for the purposes of match-up discussions, it would be ideal to have them equally skilled, otherwise the ratios would be biased. There is a reason Ness is low tier. Just because one may choose to invest hours and hours of game play on a certain low tier character, does not excuse the fact that the character has weaknesses. Weaknesses which the other player may or may not choose to exploit.

EDIT: Also, I have never been able to break out of Falco's dthrow chain grab with a nair, the only times i have been able to break free without reaching ~30% is when the Falco messes up, or chooses to stop

 

[Gaussis]

Woah there. Ness will never have the advantage against a top tier character.

Just giving you a heads up.

Sound rather pessimistic, no? He may not have an advantage now. However, you shouldn't really say it will stay that way.

I'm up for a 6:4 Falco. No more, no less. Who else agrees?

 

[PKNintendo]

Sound rather pessimistic, no? He may not have an advantage now. However, you shouldn't really say it will stay that way.

I'm up for a 6:4 Falco. No more, no less. Who else agrees?

Same for me. Except the Conceited Busy Falco mains won't get off their high and mighty thrones to talk to us.

 

[pure_awesome]

65-35 Falco.

I'd agree on a little more neutral numbers if the chainspike weren't almost a guaranteed kill. Yes, you can meteor cancel the spike, but to what avail? Your double jump doesn't reach high enough to get back to the ledge, and Ness' UpB is crazy gimpable. (EDIT: Wait a second. Can double jump reach the ledge? Am I thinking of Lucas?)

Ignoring the chainspike, Ness has a clear advantage in the air and Falco has a clear advantage on the ground. Problem being that Ness can't stay in the air indefinitely.

Magnet is best used once or twice at long distances just to keep the Falco aware that it's there. It's not like you'll be healing a ton of damage from lasers anyway.

I don't have a ton of Ness experience, but hey, you asked for a Falco.

Falco's reflector is nigh useless against PK Fire, right?

 

[Hyo]

I'm a new member to the smash boards, but a long time Falco main.

First off, I'd like to say that PSI magnet is very annoying.
Second, I'd like to say it isn't as good as Lucas's. mhm.

Ness's is laggy, and doesn't do any damage (what does it do, push you with wind)?

Either way, Falco's laser game isn't too affected by the PSI magnet (I think is with Lucas's more.)

Also, a CG -> meteor has huge openings for falco. For one, if we just eat the PKT then you fall to your doom, no? There's always Gatling combo and Boost smashing, both valuable assets at putting tons of damage on.

What I think ness has is a really good throw game. He plays well in the air, but Falco can adapt. A good Falco wouldn't try to be overly aggressive against a Ness who knows his stuff, but doesn't need to spam lasers to be defensive.

It's all been said before, but I'd put 65:35 for Falco, just because I haven't really seen PSI magnet be put to good use.

 

[Gaussis]

It's too stage dependant to place it that high. First, you must CG at a low enough percentage that is enough to reach the ledge, but high enough to knock him down too low so that he has to use PKT. At low percentages, he will recover with his double jump, and at high percentages, the CG doesn't work anymore. Besides, it's not like Falco will only go for the grab and nothing else.

Gimping isn't really the problem. It's the damage Ness can get while he fights his way back to the stage.

I'm a new member to the smash boards, but a long time Falco main.

First off, I'd like to say that PSI magnet is very annoying.
Second, I'd like to say it isn't as good as Lucas's. mhm.

Ness's is laggy, and doesn't do any damage (what does it do, push you with wind)?

Either way, Falco's laser game isn't too affected by the PSI magnet (I think is with Lucas's more.)

Also, a CG -> meteor has huge openings for falco. For one, if we just eat the PKT then you fall to your doom, no? There's always Gatling combo and Boost smashing, both valuable assets at putting tons of damage on.

What I think ness has is a really good throw game. He plays well in the air, but Falco can adapt. A good Falco wouldn't try to be overly aggressive against a Ness who knows his stuff, but doesn't need to spam lasers to be defensive.

It's all been said before, but I'd put 65:35 for Falco, just because I haven't really seen PSI magnet be put to good use.

PSI magnet is actually faster than it appears. It keeps Falco from firing indefinitely. Or Ness could always duck under them to avoid the damage.

 

[pure_awesome]

I don't see how you can say gimping isn't a problem. The spike forces the use of Ness' UpB, and Falco has a superb edgeguarding game. Not to mention he's in the perfect gimp position already.

The chaingrab on Ness is just like any other character: the lower the percentage it happens, the better. We can alter the distance of the regrab to add the right amount of damage before we get to the ledge.

Ness also has to be wary of Falco's lasers while recovering. A single laser means a waste of a double jump and the forced use of a rather unimpressive UpB.


On that note, Ness' PKT2 is awesome and should be used and abused against any Falco that didn't have the foresight to learn how to recover properly. You can also use the tail of PKT1 to block Falco's recovery, which would force him to use the Firebird. And we really, really don't want to use Firebird.

 

[Ref]

Spike does not force Pkt you can Double Jump to Meteor cancel.

What Ness will Double jump while lasers are coming? I'll wait until I get lower...

Anyway I'm just here to correct stuff...

 

[Gaussis]

I mentioned this. At lower percentages, Ness should recover with just his double jump. At the peak of the CG is when he would be forced to use PKT. The time you CG Ness isn't determined by Falco, so it can't really be put as an advantage. Also, Falco would have to commit to chase Ness after the spike. He doesn't seem to return to solid ground unless he jumps, so chasing Ness is the only method he can actually gimp with. And Falco chasing Ness isn't too viable, since Ness can always airdodge or uair on his way up.

Why do people think you can actually rob Ness (or any other character with a good DJ) of his double jump. A double jump air dodge will get rid of that problem easily.

EDIT: Ref beat me to it. Apparently it doesn't force PKT.

 

[pure_awesome]

Falco can easily return to solid ground after the spike. From there, I wait for the double-jump, edgehug, and gimp the UpB with a steal, walljump reflector, bair, dair... whatever. If he couldn't return to solid ground and was committed to chasing, I would completely agree with you. But as it stands, Ness (along with most characters) are going to have a ton of trouble recovering after a chainspike. Especially since any Falco worth his salt has put plenty of time into working on post-chainspike chases.

The amount of time the chaingrab goes shouldn't make a difference. The actual ground it covers, along with the damage Ness takes on the way, should.

Falco has a much easier time robbing people of their DJs than most characters because of his lasers. If Ness DJ+airdodges, he can either go away from Falco, and be forced to use his UpB, or go towards and be hit when the airdodge finishes.

It's not a perfect scenario, by all means. But it definitely favours Falco. 65-35.

 

[The_NZA]

If it doesn't force PKT, this gimping ness thing isn't even worth discussing.

 

[Masky]

I feel kinda dumb but how is it that sometimes I lose my second jump while being chaingrabbed by falco?

 

[Ref]

You probably aren't losing it as much as you are being spiked out of it or mistiming the meteor cancel... Umm... Just keep tap jump on and once spiked keep tapping up...

 

[Masky]

Just keep tap jump on

Never.

I guess it was because I tried to jump right before being daired

 

[pure_awesome]

If it doesn't force PKT, this gimping ness thing isn't even worth discussing.

Ness can recover to the ledge using double jump. This is easily circumvented by Falco with a simple edgehug.

So while the chainspike in itself does not force PKT, it always will against a decent player.

 

[Gaussis]

Uh, that position is bad for too many reasons. If you edgehog right when Ness double jumps on the edge, he will use PKT. At that point, Falco is stuck on the ledge, unable to move with anything that doesn't have invincibility frames. If he doesn't move fast enough, he will get PKT2. If he does, Ness reaches the ledge safety.

 

[Levitas]

Assuming that falco's spike forces Ness to recover to the ledge (as in he can't reach the stage).

Ness's jump is pretty big, and it certainly doesn't force a DJ to the edge for low percents, though I don't know about how far ness goes with a spike at 40%

 

[xoxokev]

I think all the Ness mains who are arguing the against "CG + spike = bad for Ness" situation have not played many VERY good Falcos. I know from experience that it is very bad. A good Falco will spike you, and when you are trying to PK Thunder yourself, will go for another spike... if done correctly, you are dead since you can't meteor cancel if you've already used your DJ while meteor canceling the first spike. Another option for Falco is to grab the ledge after the first spike, then ledgefall and use bair, pushing you even farther from the stage, ultimately resulting in a lost stock... it's sad... but it's true

40:60 Advantage Falco

 

[thesage]

Sage is bad at the little things in this game. You should never be CG to spiked learn to meteor cancel....

Keep tap jump on and keep smashing up on the control stick. You'll DJ after falling only a bit. You can also just DI so you never get CG'd to spiked. Or smash DI onto the stage if DI'ing is to hard..

Have you ever heard of double spiking? If the Falco doesn't do that, then yea, Ness is pretty much gaurenteed to go back to the ledge lol.

Lasers don't really annoy me. His down b annoys me more. Ness' Bair definetely beats Falco's fair if somebody said that. Who wins in Falco's bair vs. Ness fair depends on who spaces better.

Dair beats pkt2, but it's already useless against most characters anyways.

And wtf. I am very good at DI'ing (with Ness only, I suck at it when I use other characters, I discovered it when I was a noob). I could only consistently smash DI Fox's uair in melee and smash di'ing multi-hits in brawl is pretty easy. I never could ledgetech since the characters I used, generally didn't need it (Peach) or were screwed anyways (Ness).

 

[pure_awesome]

Uh, that position is bad for too many reasons. If you edgehog right when Ness double jumps on the edge, he will use PKT. At that point, Falco is stuck on the ledge, unable to move with anything that doesn't have invincibility frames. If he doesn't move fast enough, he will get PKT2. If he does, Ness reaches the ledge safety.

If Ness uses PKT right under Falco, there is a slew of other things he can do, like ledgedropping a bair or just stealing his thunder. PKT's startup time is almost as long as the inactive frames on the ledge.

Which, in turn, there are a slew of things Ness can do to counter.

We're going around in circles arguing perfect play. But that fact of the matter is that not only is Falco dictating what happens and Ness is reacting, making it much harder for Ness, but if Falco doesn't play perfectly, worst case scenario is Ness makes it back with hefty damage. If Ness doesn't play perfectly, he's down a stock.

 

[xoxokev]

^I already said most of that... kinda

 

[_clinton]

I think all the Ness mains who are arguing the against "CG + spike = bad for Ness" situation have not played many VERY good Falcos. I know from experience that it is very bad. A good Falco will spike you, and when you are trying to PK Thunder yourself, will go for another spike... if done correctly, you are dead since you can't meteor cancel if you've already used your DJ while meteor canceling the first spike. Another option for Falco is to grab the ledge after the first spike, then ledgefall and use bair, pushing you even farther from the stage, ultimately resulting in a lost stock... it's sad... but it's true

40:60 Advantage Falco

I've heard of this thing called an air dodge...

Oh and while Falco has a 45% combo on Ness right from the get go...its not like Ness doesn't have any moves that screw around with Falco's % from early on as well...

PK Fire...if he gets out...that is fine...you still are in control over what he is going to do for the most part...if he throws that Reflector at it you have options you can do...Free % restore with an easy set up for a short hopped Nair to his face if he rushes you because of that...

or just jumping up high and creaming him with a Dair...which at early % Falco is large enough to get some % on him...

Anyway...my own thoughts on it are 50:50 or 55:45 either way

 

[ColinJF]

I'd say it's actually better for Falco to get some extra damage with a fancy dash attack up smash combo or whatever than to go for the spike which you will live through most of the time.

And a chaingrab is only a 45% handicap if you manage to get grabbed at 0% every stock (hard to fathom).

Also Masky, if you don't have tap jump on, meteor cancelling with 100% success rate is pretty hard. The window to meteor cancel opens up after half the knockback of the meteor, and ends shortly thereafter. Much like teching, if you input an X or Y during the meteor knockback, it will ignore later ones for a while, long enough to make you miss the window. So you need to know the window well at the possible damage ranges in order to meteor cancel with X or Y. If tap jump is on you can just mash tap jump. As far as I can tell, turning off tap jump has no advantages, but a variety of disadvantages, at least as far as Ness is concerned.

 

[The_NZA]

DIdn't know that colin...i should consider putting tap jump back on. I wish we had a bunch of falco v ness videos we could post. I dont know of any great falcos so I c an't really speak for them. I did notice though that falco doesn't have that much range on many of his moves, and that, in the air im pretty sure ness can always out space him. also I think ness air vs falco ground, ness always outspaces him. Correct me if im wrong.

 

[xoxokev]

@Colin: I used to play with tap jump on, but during Falco's chain grab, I would always try to DI diagonally up and away from Falco (a friend of mine, who is a VERY GOOD Falco here on Smashboards, told me that was the best way to do it), and it would read the input as a jump. With tap jump on, I would use my second jump in between being chain grabbed, and when I was eventually spiked, I would be like "WTF WHERE'S MY SECOND JUMP?!". Then I started playing with tap jump off and I never lost my second jump since then. I can meteor cancel with the X button very well, it's almost second nature to me, and I can do it almost every time I'm spiked, as long as I still have that second jump... Also, tap jump off allows me to utilt more often, and we all know we need moar utilt

@NZA: Falco's fsmash has pretty good range. When I first started playing that match-up, I had underestimated its range... but now I'm very cautious when I see a charging fsmash... Also, he does have his lasers. I would say that is a pretty ranged attack... luckily, Ness can duck, and most of the time not get hit, or use Psi Magnet. But don't forget to cancel the lag by spot dodging or rolling! (duh)

 

[_clinton]

Sweet...Hyper Bumblebee Ness ^_^

 

[PKNintendo]

THANK YOU Pure awesomeness. You have my total gratitude. Unlike SOME Falco mains...

 

[AvariceX]

I want to make something very clear since I don't visit SWF often and I'm a little appalled some people still don't know this: Falco cannot CG Ness. DI straight up (don't even need Smash DI, just normal DI) and spam your jump button. At 0% this will actually guarantee a footstool on Falco if he tries to grab you again, at any % higher than 0 this will just get you out of the CG.

Seriously, I posted this like 2 months ago on AiB.

 

[The_NZA]

orly? you have a vid? if not, can someone confirm this?

 

[AvariceX]

No vid sorry, I figured this out during a practice match with Zen before a tourney a while ago and haven't been CG'ed by a Falco since. But I mean if you DI straight up and just keep spamming your jump button it looks really obvious that he can't re-grab you, like you are way out of his reach.

 

[PKNintendo]

Did they buffer the grab?

 

[xoxokev]

I'll keep that footstool thing in mind the next time a Falco tries to chain grab me. I really hope it works!!!!!!!

 

[g2g4l]

Guys i don't think the "Falco Match up" is going anywhere new so i think we should go ahead and come to an consensus and move on

So from what i know i heard
6:4 Falco
or
65:35 falco

I go with the first one

 

[Gaussis]

No vid sorry, I figured this out during a practice match with Zen before a tourney a while ago and haven't been CG'ed by a Falco since. But I mean if you DI straight up and just keep spamming your jump button it looks really obvious that he can't re-grab you, like you are way out of his reach.

Actually, this may explain why the CPU Ness was escaping me when I tried to test CG conditions a while back. It seemed like Ness can escape the CG using some weird DI, although when I tried it on a real opponent, it looked like he screwed it up, so I dismissed it.

@g2g4l: If Falco cannot CG Ness, then there's really no advantage. I want to see if this is true through visual proof, like EIDI though.

 

[Masky]

Gaussis you main Saturn Ness but secondary red Ness?

 

[Gaussis]

Lol yes I do. In fact, I mix it up for mindgames. It used to be reversed a while back.