Pikmin Research Thread

[Llumys]

I'm sure this is known, but I did a little testing. Regardless of how long Pikmin have been falling after an fsmash or a toss, they won't return to their normal position. I tested on the largest possible custom stage. Just throwing this out there.

 

[DanGR]

I found another pikmin "desynched" upsmash in one of my vids. I thought I'd just point it out: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vskxPr9YENY#t=4m53s

I skipped right up to it in the url. For further clarification, it's at 4:55.

 

[Fino]

I found another pikmin "desynched" upsmash in one of my vids. I thought I'd just point it out: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vskxPr9YENY#t=4m53s

I skipped right up to it in the url. For further clarification, it's at 4:55.

pikmin rocket, not desync


~Fino

 

[IcyLight]

pikmin rocket, not desync


~Fino

what fino said

 

[DanGR]

It's not like we have a standard definition for either, differentiating between the two. *cough cough*

 

[Noa.]

That thread you made a while ago wasn't a bad idea at all and could've been quite useful. Contrary to what Fino said.

But the differences between the pikmin rocket and desynch are obvious.

 

[IcyLight]

the pikmin rocket is an example of a forced desync in which the pikmin "unleashes its charges with a whirling dervish destroying everything in its path"

 

[DtJ Hilt]

I'm not sure how fine the line between them are. Looking at the video, I can't really tell whether it's a desync or a rocket. The pikmin's trajectory shift is that of a rocket, but it looks like it's caused in the same way a desync is. Maybe the two are closer to being the same thing than we though. I think rockets could be the first step to figuring out how desyncs are caused.

 

[Denti]

Hilt ma boy! got some insight and something for you to help me think about, it's been working very well for me and i need someone else with good pikmin knowledge to help me out. [hope you entertain this idea, i don't want to tackle this playstyle alone]

I always keep pushing myself to strive better in my olimar skills, what i have been doing recently is pikmin tossing medium help to useless help pikmin off the stage (situations you must be able to read) so i can fight/approach my opponent better while i can't get punished for it. i don't whistle to arrange them i pikmin toss the ones i wana keep at my opponent or at the ground then back toss the pikmin so they die, whistling is too slow and predictable. I also think about pluck percentages and what not as i do this process.

so what i need you to help me out with is i need you to help me decide what pikmin fights which character best and why and at what damage percentages. let me make a rough sketch of what I'm thinking about so you understand what i am going after.

Luigi
Halberd (standard Pluck percentage)
Red pikmin Useful for Pikmin Tossing and F smashing his fire ball approaches. Not much else to it. good/okay pikmin.
Yellow Pikmin not very good in this match up, Priority with yellow is not going to win you this MU.
Blue Pikmin Good for this MU because of grab range and pivot grabbing his approaches. UT can kill easier, the stage is long rectangular so if they DI right you wont kill them with blue side throws as easily.
White pikmin Always useful for pikmin tossing, the grab range is nice but it wont kill, so just pressure and deal damage with the pikmin toss.
Purple PikminPurple Pikmin are best for this MU because of pikmin tossing beats fire balls and knocks the opponent backwards. UT kills at lower damage and Up smash kills at lower damage because halberd is rectangular.\


I probably missed a whole bunch of specific MU information, but now you have an idea of what I'm after.

 

[Llumys]

Yellow? Not very good?

I have to disagree.

 

[Denti]

i said i didn't give it too hard of thought. you remind me of my old devil of an AP english teacher, she proofreads but doesn't teach.

but olimar has lots of bad moves, i'm basically saying we look into getting rid of most of the pikmin that don't give us the better options. like a long line of purples and blues against luigi on that map is set up for success. you don't hafta entertain the idea, i'll do everything myself, just if you guys want in on learning this with me i'm game for helping.

 

[Llumys]

Yellow? Not very good?

I have to disagree.

 

[Denti]

Hilt, i have something i need approval before i say it as fact. for the YI stage pluck percentage i strongly believe it matters on the season. summer gives more red yellow. less blue and purple. and winter give more purple and blue, and gives less red and yellow. anyone else notice this?

 

[Llumys]

That's probably right.

 

[Denti]

just tested it about 10 times each season... man idk if it's just that stage or what but it feels so random. like fall would give certain pikmin and then next time something completely different. i got quite a bit of 3 of the same pikmin lots. i think it's just standard pluck. even if it is standard pluck it's still guna give me plucks like 3 yellows 2 purples and a white... how odd 0.o even if it does give me more of something i dont believe you can harness the knowledge into power, it's so random sometimes... the only time i've ever plucked and legitimately won because of it was ps1 in the water, i plucked 4 blues out of 6 pikmin and grabbed him. i wish i could read the programing or something.. because it feels to out of my power to control. i wish we could just decide weather or not it is impossible to decide. what if damage to OLI means something in pluck percentage, or time of the day because the wii and brawl can read that kind of stuff. ugh, wish it wasn't random

 

[DtJ Hilt]

Yellows are the best pikmin in the Luigi Matchup. Luigi's biggest weakness is disjoints, and yellows take advantage of this.

As for your idea, one step ahead of you man
If you see me play, I usually throw away my red pikmin. I see them as being mediocre and would rather have a blue or purple or yellow instead, so I toss them away most of the time.

As for Yoshi's Island, I'm 90% sure that the pluck percentages are not affected by season, but I can retest it, next chance I get. It won't take me long. But I highly doubt this is the case.

Oh, also

I may have figured out a trick with Ghost Pikmin to use it :D More on this later.

 

[Llumys]

Aha! :D

I'm right. :3

 

[Noa.]

Yellows are the best pikmin in the Luigi Matchup. Luigi's biggest weakness is disjoints, and yellows take advantage of this.

As for your idea, one step ahead of you man
If you see me play, I usually throw away my red pikmin. I see them as being mediocre and would rather have a blue or purple or yellow instead, so I toss them away most of the time.

As for Yoshi's Island, I'm 90% sure that the pluck percentages are not affected by season, but I can retest it, next chance I get. It won't take me long. But I highly doubt this is the case.

Oh, also

I may have figured out a trick with Ghost Pikmin to use it :D More on this later.

What is this trick?

You posted about it weeks ago and still haven't posted the actual thing. tisk tisk (I shouldn't say anything, my tourney thread is way outdated.)

 

[DanGR]

I'd like to point this out: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gd42EBMIZUQ

Beginning of that match. The red pikmin jumps up and creates an obstruction in the path of Wolf's aerial. I'll try to replicate the jumping action of the pikmin, because I think this could prove useful (situationally) for some things. If anyone else would like to give it a shot go ahead.

Knowledge is strength.

 

[Asa]

I got a ghost pikin in a 10 dollar money match and i almost cried

yelled obscenities instead

that **** is ridiculous

knowing a trick to help get rid of that problem would be much appreciated

 

[-Coco-]

hey i didnt notice that XD

... i did so poorly against flame's wolf that tourney T_T

 

[DtJ Hilt]

I got a ghost pikin in a 10 dollar money match and i almost cried

yelled obscenities instead

that **** is ridiculous

knowing a trick to help get rid of that problem would be much appreciated

Basically what you have to do to cure it, is you first have to know where it happened. You will always get ghost pikmin at a ledge, so it's not too difficult to figure out where the ghost pikmin happened (Unless you're on delfino, Castle Seige, or to a lesser extent, Norfair).

If the pikmin is in the front of your line (as in you currently aren't able to attack), go to the general area of where you lost the pikmin and use an attack. Any attack works. What will happen is that the pikmin, since it is in Olimar's control zone, is thought to be able to be used for the attack, can be used, and will appear with Olimar to be used, permanently returning to Olimar's line. The reason you can't use pikmin if you aren't nearby the ledge is that the game first thinks it's in your line, however then realizes it is not in the area of pikmin you can control, confusing the game.

 

[Fino]

knowing a trick to help get rid of that problem would be much appreciated

Pull a hungry box and then do the Jturly combo

 

[Jupz]

Woah, amazing thread here Hilt. Why aren't red Pikmin good? Whats better about blue (besides the fact they can take more %)? And what are the best pikmin against Metaknight?

Thanks in advance

 

[DtJ Hilt]

I've been starting to like reds a little bit more than I use to but still don't like them as much as blues :/

Here's the way I usually put it. Let's say we ranked how good each attack is for each color. For most of the things that reds would be a 5/5 in, blues would most of the time be a 4/5 at worst. Anything a red is really good for, blues are really good for as well, as they deal almost the exact same damage and reds have slightly higher knockback. Reds however do have higher priority which I'm going to look into. However, the only difference is that for things that blues would be a 5/5 in, most of the time reds would be like... a 2/5 or a 3/5. Reds have the problem of being mediocre for grabs while blues excel in grabs (if nothing else you can get 12% from a blue dthrow!). The way I look at it, Reds are good at most things but below average at grabs, while blues are amazing at grabs and either great or above average at everything else. So it's not that reds are necessarily bad, just that they're outshined by blues.

Wow that was a lot longer than I expected it to be XD But yeah, whites are most likely the worst, however they have their moments and their matchups where they can shine.

As for the mk matchup, I would say yellows and purples. I'm going to test a few things to see if reds do any better at beating out any of his attacks than the other pikmin, but the range of yellow pikmin work wonders against him. Yellow fsmash in particular, for me, as the hitbox is biggger as the pikmin falls so it throws off the mk's spacing when trying to punish it. However, I find that having too many yellows can be a problem, as it gets the opponent use to the range difference, instead of it being a surprise that throws them off. Purples' use is mainly that purple pikmin toss is amazing, throws up mk's approach and pressure game and landing early kills is extremely important.

Keep the questions coming Jupz :D

Oh also, I plan to start updating this thread soon, it needs to be. It might end up looking a tad different afterwards, we'll see.

 

[DtJ Hilt]

Yes I'm double Posting I don't feel like this update getting lost in the giant post above it.

Reworked the thread. Fixed up a few things, completely redid the Ghost Pikmin section and changed the desynch section a bit. I took out the sections on Pluck Percentages and Frame data. I'm not tired so I'm going to start working on a new reference thread, pluck percentages and frame data will be included in them. Also, I'm going to completely redo Olimar's frame data because there was a lot of things I missed. I'll probably have the time to do it this thursday when I get bored at my smashfest.

 

[Jupz]

Thanks Hilt If I have any other questions I will ask them. Eagerly awaiting the frame data.

 

[Denti]

Yes I'm double Posting

THAT'S FORBIDDEN!!!!!!

if you want a link to the frame data here it is. http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=225377

 

[DtJ Hilt]

Denti why the hell would I want a link to the frame data thread when I'm the one that made it? I think I can find it on my own. Stop posting just to post.

 

[Denti]

*deleted lol*
edit: I'm going be honest with you because i don't want you to dislike me. I don't like it when people have a grudge against me especial someone who is nice(I'm trying to be honest lol). I want my post count higher XD if it seriously bothers you I'll find other threads to talk on lots. maybe the Pokemon thread or smash 64 thread because I love competitive smash 64 and Pokemon.

I don't care about getting infractions as much as i care about ticking people off.

 

[DtJ Hilt]

I'm going to be honest with you. This place is not your personal room to increase your post count.

If you want to contribute to the threads or the conversation within them, that's completely fine. If you want to make a post that's just good enough to get by so you can get that +1, I'm sorry. I'm not going to infract you for posting in every single stickied thread in the Olimar Boards if it's something worth contributing. But I'm not gonna have any spam going through here. The Olimar boards finally got under control and started moving well. Let's not have it take a step backwards.

 

[Fino]

I'm going to be honest with you. This place is not your personal room to increase your post count.

If you want to contribute to the threads or the conversation within them, that's completely fine. If you want to make a post that's just good enough to get by so you can get that +1, I'm sorry. I'm not going to infract you for posting in every single stickied thread in the Olimar Boards if it's something worth contributing. But I'm not gonna have any spam going through here. The Olimar boards finally got under control and started moving well. Let's not have it take a step backwards.

*EDIT* nvrm

 

[DtJ Hilt]

Fino, edit your post. You're one infraction away from a ban so, I suggest you be more careful.

 

[Dabuz]

*deleted lol*
edit: I'm going be honest with you because i don't want you to dislike me. I don't like it when people have a grudge against me especial someone who is nice(I'm trying to be honest lol). I want my post count higher XD if it seriously bothers you I'll find other threads to talk on lots. maybe the Pokemon thread or smash 64 thread because I love competitive smash 64 and Pokemon.

I don't care about getting infractions as much as i care about ticking people off.

you sully the good name of +1 and all the forum nerds who get their stupidly high post count legitimately

 

[Stitch_Kun]

guys i have this video...and well it was wierd im sure its been discovered, i think it was pikmin rocketing..but i was charging an upsmash in team matches and me friend hit my partner *gnW* into why yellow pikmin, i didnt know what happened until i released my upsmash and my parter (in the death zone while im on the far right of FD) was sent straight up and died by my upsmash O_o)

 

[shanus]

Just thought I'd share a bit of juicy fun on why olimar's pluck speeds can differ based on level:


Subaction Main0x1CE
@16020

-----------|START|--------------------------
Generate Article/Prop - 0x0,
Asynchronous Timer - Frames=2.00x,
Frame Speed - Multiplier=RA-Float[4],
Asynchronous Timer - Frames=5.00x,
Frame Speed - Multiplier=1.00x,
Asynchronous Timer - Frames=8.00x,
Allow Interrupt
----------------------------|END|-----------

RA-Float4 gets overwritten frequently within fighter.pac, especially for run speed and several other scenarios. Utilizing it in his successful pluck subaction can occasionally result in a bad write hence the variable pluck speeds.

Overall, bad choice of variable for them and more failed programming.

 

[-Vocal-]

Reasons to hate Sakurai: 1,000

Reasons to hate Sakurai after this post: 1,002

Once for hiring lackluster programmers and another for not fixing it.

 

[Blissard]

Once for hiring lackluster programmers and another for not fixing it.

Those 2 reasons were probably already in the 1000 But I'm confused as to why it disappears. It would've been a different story if the Pikmin was still stuck to a ledge or something, but if the game still believes it to be in line when it's not, and the Pikmin still contributes to the 6 limit, how can it just disappear? And after the ghost Pikmin was used for an attack, shouldn't it go to the back of the chain instead of remaining in the front?

 

[-Vocal-]

Those 2 reasons were probably already in the 1000 But I'm confused as to why it disappears. It would've been a different story if the Pikmin was still stuck to a ledge or something, but if the game still believes it to be in line when it's not, and the Pikmin still contributes to the 6 limit, how can it just disappear? And after the ghost Pikmin was used for an attack, shouldn't it go to the back of the chain instead of remaining in the front?

Oh, I was talking about the pluck stuff, but ghost pikmin suck too lol, especially when I don't notice til seconds later when my fair whiffs ^_^ I'm not the best at explaining ghost pikmin; I'm guessing that it's something like when Oli has not pikmin and whiffs an attack (maybe his line doesn't move in this case?), but for a better explanation ask Hilt.

 

[Noa.]

Ghost pikmin are explained in the OP of this very thread.