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Because we already have one random effect that is unable to be reacted too and can save stocks all the while not testing skill in any way.
The Platform Ghost of YI:B.
I don't need evidence or proof, as this is a given fact. It is in fact random, (namesearchbaiting T-Block, gogogo) not only in time but also in the side it pops up on.
Counterpoints will be responded to as they come.
NOTE: Banning YI:B is also a fair solution to this consistency problem.
I think Pictochat is just too much. Comparing it to YI is isn't really fair.
It would be like comparing the random factor of SV's balloon with a similarly designed stage that randomly shoots explosive lasers with explosive effects from several angles.
If this was the case, wouldn't fighting on the stage just move to the bottom left during the small amount of time that a transformation has the chance to happen? (or, people would avoid fighting, or do something else to combat this intrusiveness)
I think Pictochat is just too much. Comparing it to YI is isn't really fair.
It would be like comparing the random factor of SV's balloon with a similarly designed stage that randomly shoots explosive lasers with explosive effects from several angles.
Well using the fire transition as an example again, if you get launched into the air above the fires, you only have two places you can attempt to land:
1) between the fires
2) on the side you're closest to of the fires
and it puts you in a prime position to be relaunched when trying to get back to the ground.
Same thing happens with the rolling chair and flower transformation. If you get grabbed on either of those transistions, you're pretty much screwed.
Well using the fire transition as an example again, if you get launched into the air above the fires, you only have two places you can attempt to land:
1) between the fires
2) on the side you're closest to of the fires
and it puts you in a prime position to be relaunched when trying to get back to the ground.
Same thing happens with the rolling chair and flower transformation. If you get grabbed on either of those transistions, you're pretty much screwed.
Isn't foreign or a cause for ban in our ruleset at all.
If you get grabbed by IC's your DEFINITELY screwed. Or even by DDD on some parts of delfino.
And many other situations.
Making it more difficult to land is a CP quality. Note that according to the URC being on the ledge is fine as all characters have potential to stall on it, thereby making a LGL necessary in the case of timeouts.
wtf you can't compare the hazards on Halberd to Pictochat. Halberd's hazards can be seen coming a mile away. Pictochat's shenanigans can literally appear directly on top of you, without warning, and murder you.
I still don't see how this stage is any different from turning items on low.
All of this "preparation" for the stage transformations could be applied to a bomb randomly appearing, or a beam sword appearing when you have your opponent grabbed.
Edit: Grabs alone put Pictochat on a worse tier than YI. If I grab you in the center of YI, I can throw you. If I grab you in the middle of Pictochat (off the top of my head)
-I could throw you and flames appear
-A wall could appear and you may live from the throw when otherwise, you wouldn't have
-That kart in the middle could appear, and my 10% potentially turns into a KO move
What I mean is that, basically, that you can't really defend Pictochat if you don't really know how to. You seem not to know what are you talking about and just nitpicked Pictochat to try poking holes on the Unity Ruleset.
as far as my experience goes, constantly comparing the stage just makes your argument weaker. If people thinks those are bad elements of the stage, why tell them what other stages have them, too?
It almost seems you do not want to add Pictochat, but to remove other stages instead.
it is intrusive, like YI
it is damaging, like Halberd
it is gimmicky (but addaptable to), like Brinstar
it is randomly changing, like Delfino
The only part where we'd say something different is that I think we don't have a bar where we can say something is "too much" and ban because of that.
It is all subjective. Some like it, some others don't
I personally like the stage and have never had any kind of negative experience I can't blame myself to be at.
I still don't see how this stage is any different from turning items on low.
All of this "preparation" for the stage transformations could be applied to a bomb randomly appearing, or a beam sword appearing when you have your opponent grabbed.
I know how to respond to that, but I find it somewhat hard to put it out with words.
Let's just say that Pictochat transforming rate is MUCH more consistent than items spawn rate. You could addapt to changes and only approach if transformation is already out.
In other words, you can't really wait for items to appear and addapt to that, simply because there is not any way you know an item will soon appear. They can REALLY appear at any moment, at any spot.
Edit: Grabs alone put Pictochat on a worse tier than YI. If I grab you in the center of YI, I can throw you. If I grab you in the middle of Pictochat (off the top of my head)
-I could throw you and flames appear
-A wall could appear and you may live from the throw when otherwise, you wouldn't have
-That kart in the middle could appear, and my 10% potentially turns into a KO move
The other day I was brainstorming about that.
If you know your opponent may lock you, why would you approach on a blank stage and take the risk to be hit between a wall, or that a hazard may appear and increase your opponent's reward?
I think people can start playing AFTER transformatiosn are up, to prevent these random scenarios. But that's jsut a theory nobody would be willing to prove.
one flaw with that thinking is that it requires both players to adopt that strategy
and it's not a given that both players will view such play as the optimal strategy. if one player wants to force confrontation, then the effect of the random drawings can still surface. and the player who is "worse" often does have motivation to force confrontation.
remember when you try to propose a solution like that that it has to hold up even if you have an inferior player looking to abuse randomness.
Because we already have one random effect that is unable to be reacted too and can save stocks all the while not testing skill in any way.
The Platform Ghost of YI:B.
I don't need evidence or proof, as this is a given fact. It is in fact random, (namesearchbaiting T-Block, gogogo) not only in time but also in the side it pops up on.
Counterpoints will be responded to as they come.
NOTE: Banning YI:B is also a fair solution to this consistency problem.
I support pictochat in the vast majority of the transitions the only only exception to this is the diagonal line drawn across the stage that removes the left ledge before it can be seen. it can kill at any damage but most importantly it can kill before it is visible to react to. Everything else can't kill you before you can see it. Also a stage killing you is very different than it saving you. Being saved really won't let the worse player win as much as being killed by the stage would. They are very different scales of interaction.
I support pictochat in the vast majority of the transitions the only only exception to this is the diagonal line drawn across the stage that removes the left ledge before it can be seen. it can kill at any damage but most importantly it can kill before it is visible to react to. Everything else can't kill you before you can see it. Also a stage killing you is very different than it saving you. Being saved really won't let the worse player win as much as being killed by the stage would. They are very different scales of interaction.
a stage killing you and a stage saving your opponent from a lethal move effectively influence the match in the same way: skewing the stock count by one.
seeing the stage take a stock FEELS worse because we intuitively see loss of stock in a negative light.
consider this:
which would you rather have happen?
-you secure an early gimp on your opponent on YI, and he is falling to his death, but the platform saves him
-you are at 150% on pictochat, and the opponent throws you with a non-lethal throw that turns lethal because of the plant
i'd argue that the first case has actually swayed the match much more than the second case =\
Edit: Grabs alone put Pictochat on a worse tier than YI. If I grab you in the center of YI, I can throw you. If I grab you in the middle of Pictochat (off the top of my head)
-I could throw you and flames appear
-A wall could appear and you may live from the throw when otherwise, you wouldn't have
-That kart in the middle could appear, and my 10% potentially turns into a KO move
1. You seem to fail to represent how extremely situational this all is. This is on a grab where the grabbing character has the ability to put the grabbed character in the spot they want (won't always happen. How is MK going to abuse spikes spawning? Or Snake? Or Marth?) and where the stage hasn't already changed to that transformation. (a bit less situational for walls then for hazards, but very few walls will save you when you would have died.)
The simple answer? Don't get grabbed during the 10(at max) seconds where a transformation could occur.
What I mean is that, basically, that you can't really defend Pictochat if you don't really know how to. You seem not to know what are you talking about and just nitpicked Pictochat to try poking holes on the Unity Ruleset.
as far as my experience goes, constantly comparing the stage just makes your argument weaker. If people thinks those are bad elements of the stage, why tell them what other stages have them, too?
It almost seems you do not want to add Pictochat, but to remove other stages instead.
I would be OK with either solution. It makes my argument stronger because all I'm advocating is change for consistency. I would prefer picto legal, but I won't ever get to interact with the URC making that decision, because they do it in private.
one flaw with that thinking is that it requires both players to adopt that strategy
and it's not a given that both players will view such play as the optimal strategy. if one player wants to force confrontation, then the effect of the random drawings can still surface. and the player who is "worse" often does have motivation to force confrontation.
remember when you try to propose a solution like that that it has to hold up even if you have an inferior player looking to abuse randomness.
5 second interval where a drawing could appear, bro.
i observed a drawing appearing anywhere from 5 seconds after the previous one disappeared to 10 seconds after. i'd estimate 95% of those still are within 6.5-9.5 seconds.
for some perspective, each drawing lasts something like 11-13 seconds. so a typical cycle with players playing like that would be: 5 seconds of known blank time, 5 seconds of potential transformation time, 12 seconds of drawing present. take from that what you will.
Captain Falcon is my third most used char., so I support the legality of PictoChat. The landing can be a problem if hazards pop up, and you can be thrown into hazards, but that's just part of the stage's game. It's not different from hazards on Brinstar and Halberd. You can throw people into the laser, the acid rising can effect getting back onto the stage and landing. I'm not to keen on the current legal stages, so Brinstar may be banned, but I'm pretty sure it isn't. In conclusion, I want PictoChat to become legal again as a CP stage.
I also support Temple as a legal CP stage, the banning of Castle Siege, ZSS, Snake, Diddy Kong, Link, Toon Link, Olimar, DDD, and Samus, and the legality of Mr. Saturn and Smash Balls as items.
Joking, except for turning Castle Siege into a CP and legalizing Temple.
1. You seem to fail to represent how extremely situational this all is. This is on a grab where the grabbing character has the ability to put the grabbed character in the spot they want (won't always happen. How is MK going to abuse spikes spawning? Or Snake? Or Marth?) and where the stage hasn't already changed to that transformation. (a bit less situational for walls then for hazards, but very few walls will save you when you would have died.)
When you have an 8 minute match going, it becomes a bit more than situational imo. All of those characters you mentioned can easily throw you into the vertical spikes from the floor if they appear (Snake - Fthrow, Uthrow if you're close ; MK - Uthrow or Fthrow ; Marth - Uthrow, but if he's too far, the wall gives him a chance to combo you)
And that's just drawings appearing in the middle of grabs. I wasn't even considering recovery situations, charging attacks, etc.
Ok, so I need to run away for the 10 seconds to make sure I don't get grabbed. The problem with this idea is that I'm fighting an opponent who is trying to kill me. You can't expect both of us to just sit back every time the screen goes blank.
And still,what if you do get grabbed? The stage can randomly reward different attacks/situations at times. If this were halberd we were talking about, I would understand you saying "don't get grabbed" if the claw started winding up, I got grabbed, and then got hit. I can prepare for that.
But Pictochat is different. There's zero warning of what's coming next.
I finding this hard to word, so I'll give some examples
[COLLAPSE=unfair pictochat situation]
I'm fighting Wario on Pictochat. In the down time of drawings, we're fighting. I mis-space an attack and get grabbed, now here's what could happen-
1) nothing appears
2) A damaging hazard or wall of some sort appears
3) A harmless drawing appears
Let's say in this case, the kart appears, and Wario throws me into it and I die, whereas if the kart wouldn't have appeared, I would have lived.
Now later in the match, once again during the downtime, I grab Wario, but this time, the springs on each side of the stage appear during my grab. [/COLLAPSE]
Wario got rewarded for grabbing me at some random time, and I had no warning of the hazard coming. I didn't get rewarded for grabbing him. Not fair imo. Wario got lucky, and I want as little luck present as possible in tournament.
I'm not even going to go into the line business. If the screen is blank and you're recovering from the left, you're supposed to alter your recovery just in case the line appears? Now we're supposed to be changing our playstyles out of fear of random chance. That's too much stage
intrusiveness for me.
So if I'm Falco and I'm sent off to the left, the stage is blank, and the line hasn't appeared yet, I'm supposed to phantasm straight into the waiting Diddy, putting myself further in harms way, because of something that may or may not happen?
If I'm thrown to the right side and the Wind Face hasn't appeared yet, I need to recover high just in case the face appears and forces me to the ledge?
Yea, cuz players always have the ability to choose when they're recovering. Or when fire/bomb/plant/spike transformations damage them out of nowhere, even on a timer.
Protip: Dazwa likes to argue.
@Bizkit047 actually i predicted what this video was going to ***** about roughly 10 seconds before it happened. mikeray continues pushing tempest to the left ledge during a non-transformation, and even though he didn't push at the exact same time to gimp Link, tempest decided "I don't need to get up from the ledge just yet" and attempted to plank to gain an advantage. Tempest did not account for the stage, Mikeray did, **** went down.
You're still bad.
You missed the point of the video. Yea, Tempest should have gotten back on stage sooner. But what if someone is hit off during it? They auto lose the stock. How do you counter that? Don't get hit when that transition is about to pop up even though you won't know it's the one?
Bizkit047 1 year ago 5
I get you, and that's why I'm arguing consistency instead of legality.
Your whole argument applies, albeit less, to a mixture of YI and Halberd(because you can see the possibility of a hazard coming in the claw. nothing is garaunteed.)
So maybe if those weren't legal, your argument wouldn't be disproven simply because every scenario you bring up can happen in essence on a different legal stage.
there's a similar concept in CPing olimar to frigate orpheon
if the distribution between phases is such that most of the time is spent on phase 1, most would consider it a good counterpick
if the distribution between phases is such that most of the time is spent on phase 2, you are almost certainly going to be disadvantaged going up against olimar here
what determines whether you end up in the first situation or the second? random chance.
