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Data Phrygia's Notebook - Lucas Matchup Discussion

PKBeam

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It's not that easy but if the opportunity presents itself, Falcon can take advantage of it somewhat better than most other characters.
 

Lunacywastaken

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Not just that. I think a lot of people need practice with using PKT2 effectively to make Lucas that much harder to edgeguard. It may not be as risky to challenge as Ness's but that doesn't really matter if they can't reach you to challenge in the first place.

Is it that easy for Falcon to spike/bair Lucas in the middle of PKT2?
The problem is that if Lucas recovers from the blast zone, it gives your opponent heaps of time for a free try on edgeguarding you. However, just mixing up your PKT2 trajectory (if that's what you meant) so you don't sweetspot the ledge can work.
 

Lunacywastaken

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Here is my revised version of Lucas' MUs, thanks to the people here giving me feedback. These characters included are the ones that I have experience in. This is based of the 1.1.2 patch and characters are in alphabetical order. Mii Fighters are based off their 1111 moveset. More feedback is appreciated! :)

My Lucas MU list

-2
:4falcon::4sonic:

-1 :4darkpit::4diddy::4fox::4greninja::4mario::4metaknight::4pit::rosalina::4sheik::4feroy::4ryu::4villager::4yoshi:

0 :4charizard::4jigglypuff::4kirby::4link::4littlemac::4lucas::4lucina::4marth::4ness::4pacman::4robinm:

+1 :4bowserjr::4drmario::4myfriends::4luigi::4mewtwo::4palutena::4rob::4tlink::4zelda:

+2 :4bowser::4ganondorf:

Characters not included due to MU inexperience


:4dk::4duckhunt::4falco::4gaw::4dedede::4lucario::4megaman::4miisword::4miigun::4miibrawl::4olimar::4peach::4pikachu::4shulk::4samus::4wario::4wiifit::4zss:
 
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Nu~

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How does Lucas beat pacman at all? Pk fire may explode on contact with fruit and a stationary hydrant (which is an easy lunch for us if we just shield), but considering pacman can play an anti grab game with trampoline and launched hydrants, I don't see how Lucas can tango with us in nuetral. He can't zone us out because a Fair launched hydrant/galaxian/key/bell beat pk fire and he has troubles getting in on us. We also ruin Lucas' recovery with hydrant drops since they shorten the distance of pkt2. Lucas has the faster CQC, but we have more range overall.

I don't see this being anything worse than even for pacman. Perhaps even in his favor because of his superior nuetral game.
 

meleebrawler

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How does Lucas beat pacman at all? Pk fire may explode on contact with fruit and a stationary hydrant (which is an easy lunch for us if we just shield), but considering pacman can play an anti grab game with trampoline and launched hydrants, I don't see how Lucas can tango with us in nuetral. He can't zone us out because a Fair launched hydrant/galaxian/key/bell beat pk fire and he has troubles getting in on us. We also ruin Lucas' recovery with hydrant drops since they shorten the distance of pkt2. Lucas has the faster CQC, but we have more range overall.

I don't see this being anything worse than even for pacman. Perhaps even in his favor because of his superior nuetral game.
How do hydrant drops mess with PKT2 unless they outright hit Lucas out of the move? As far as I know it doesn't lose distance when it hits something unlike Ness's.
 
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Lunacywastaken

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How does Lucas beat pacman at all? Pk fire may explode on contact with fruit and a stationary hydrant (which is an easy lunch for us if we just shield), but considering pacman can play an anti grab game with trampoline and launched hydrants, I don't see how Lucas can tango with us in nuetral. He can't zone us out because a Fair launched hydrant/galaxian/key/bell beat pk fire and he has troubles getting in on us. We also ruin Lucas' recovery with hydrant drops since they shorten the distance of pkt2. Lucas has the faster CQC, but we have more range overall.

I don't see this being anything worse than even for pacman. Perhaps even in his favor because of his superior nuetral game.
Fair enough. The PAC-MAN I play regularly isn't campy, and plays quite aggressively. I didn't consider your points beforehand. Now that I think about it, it's more of a 0 MU for me.
 

Kodystri

the PK Spamming Lucas Main
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Right now, I think we just do bad vs Falcon, Diddy Kong, and ZSS atm.
 

Lunacywastaken

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I did here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZNAVfPRkw-4

Game 4 and 5. I played way too scared though.
Yeah definitely looks like in ZSS's favour. Though I do believe that using PSI Magnet to absorb the paralyser and jumping cancelling it right afterwards can help Lucas greatly. Also z-airs for poking her in the neutral can do well as well. Looks like -1 to me.
 

Kodystri

the PK Spamming Lucas Main
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Yeah definitely looks like in ZSS's favour. Though I do believe that using PSI Magnet to absorb the paralyser and jumping cancelling it right afterwards can help Lucas greatly. Also z-airs for poking her in the neutral can do well as well. Looks like -1 to me.

Well Paralyzers absorbing is easier said than done. ZSS's zair outranges us, which makes it even more difficult. ZSS is also great at jumping around, which makes it hard to approach her with our mediocre aerials and reliance on grabs. Not to mention ZSS just gets a better reward off grabs then we do.
 

MrWhYYZ

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Thanks to that patch N-air and B-air are safe, finally giving her a safe poke in the neutral outside of Z-air. Stuff you really need to do when playing against ZSS is getting out of the sweetspot percentage for d-throw, Up-air, Up-air, Up-B is in between 35/50% iirc without rage so trying to get out of that percentage without getting thrown and getting killed is key. (Which you did btw)

Also glad to know that I'm not the only one willing to lame it out with PK-fire.

And with Pac-man, if he camps, We'll just camp back. Playing extremely slow against campy pac-man is key because his grab is so bad that it makes me feel sad just looking at it. We can hit anything campy Pac-man throws at us back so even though he has projectiles that can break PK-fire it doesn't matter that much. He has to rely to much on projectiles. Lucas's F-smash is really good at hitting stuff back fast. And if he tries to rush down, then you can just laugh at him and beat him. Lucas's aerials may not be the best in the game but they aren't Pac-mans.
 

Nu~

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Thanks to that patch N-air and B-air are safe, finally giving her a safe poke in the neutral outside of Z-air. Stuff you really need to do when playing against ZSS is getting out of the sweetspot percentage for d-throw, Up-air, Up-air, Up-B is in between 35/50% iirc without rage so trying to get out of that percentage without getting thrown and getting killed is key. (Which you did btw)

Also glad to know that I'm not the only one willing to lame it out with PK-fire.

And with Pac-man, if he camps, We'll just camp back. Playing extremely slow against campy pac-man is key because his grab is so bad that it makes me feel sad just looking at it. We can hit anything campy Pac-man throws at us back so even though he has projectiles that can break PK-fire it doesn't matter that much. He has to rely to much on projectiles. Lucas's F-smash is really good at hitting stuff back fast. And if he tries to rush down, then you can just laugh at him and beat him. Lucas's aerials may not be the best in the game but they aren't Pac-mans.
Well simply throwing out fruit and hoping they hit isn't what pacman is all about. If that pac player is using their noggin, they would realize that against reflectors, you want to fight more aggressively in mid range/CQC with z drops and super glide tosses. You underestimate our rushdown with a fruit in hand (one galaxian hit confirm can lead to 60% at low percentages). That reflector of yours isn't going to smack a key in mid range unless you can see the future.

Also, what about our aerials makes you think that they are bad? They all either autocancel on a good frame (fair and bair) or have very low landing lag (Nair, uair, mayyyyybe dair). We can beat you out in the air every time you try to approach with aerials if we space ourselves.

Pacman relys on traps more so than projectile camping to confuse and eventually overwhelm the opponent. His projectiles are just an extension of his hand
 

MrWhYYZ

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Well simply throwing out fruit and hoping they hit isn't what pacman is all about. If that pac player is using their noggin, they would realize that against reflectors, you want to fight more aggressively in mid range/CQC with z drops and super glide tosses. You underestimate our rushdown with a fruit in hand (one galaxian hit confirm can lead to 60% at low percentages). That reflector of yours isn't going to smack a key in mid range unless you can see the future.

Also, what about our aerials makes you think that they are bad? They all either autocancel on a good frame (fair and bair) or have very low landing lag (Nair, uair, mayyyyybe dair). We can beat you out in the air every time you try to approach with aerials if we space ourselves.

Pacman relys on traps more so than projectile camping to confuse and eventually overwhelm the opponent. His projectiles are just an extension of his hand

Throwing out projectiles and hoping it hits doesn't work for any character. Pac-man can fight CQC against Lucas but he'll eat a lot more damage than Lucas will in the process. Pacman does have his N-air that he can use to combo break if you're not on point. Pac-man's only good aerial during CQC-neutral is backair. All of his other aerials have no range (In the neutral, Up-air is good when you're advantagous with Pac-man) or just straight up suck (I'm looking at you D-air).
Maybe if Pac-man didn't hold the item up before throwing it but his key is nowhere close to projectiles you can't react to.
 
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Nu~

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Throwing out projectiles and hoping it hits doesn't work for any character. Pac-man can fight CQC against Lucas but he'll eat a lot more damage than Lucas will in the process. Pacman does have his N-air that he can use to combo break if you're not on point. Pac-man's only good aerial during CQC-neutral is backair. All of his other aerials have no range (In the neutral, Up-air is good when you're advantagous with Pac-man) or just straight up suck (I'm looking at you D-air).
Maybe if Pac-man didn't hold the item up before throwing it but his key is nowhere close to projectiles you can't react to.
Key is certainly reactable, but not in the context I was referring to. Reacting to a frame 12 startup key in mid range with a 10 frame startup reflector in nuetral isn't going to be in your favor most of the time. There are so many variables going on in a match. You would have to be focused primarily on the toss of my key and I would have to be completely predictable. Dair isn't too bad for shield poking, but is better for mix ups rather than approaching. Fair is normally ok for hitting shields and then retreating, but your small size makes it hard.

By throwing out projectiles and hoping they hit, I was referring to when you said "we can hit anything he throws back at him"

you can in theory, but in a match with a pacman that actually uses his projectiles as traps rather than tools to rapidly throw out like mega man pellets, you won't be reflecting or pk Fire shooting nearly as many fruits as you think.

Dont get me wrong, Lucas has the better immediate combo game (pacman has to set up before he can et his combo game going, but it's downright lethal when it happens) and has great tools for dealing with our tools, but he can't shut all of it down.
 
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Hath

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REVIVAL! No but seriously, we should at least put some fillers for these match-ups. I have quite a bit of experience with Lucas, playing him ever since release.
My MUs: http://smashcompendium.com/matchup-chart/wztiuoynxlbvcrge/

Lucas seems to be slighly high than most of the crew, but there are some people who can major league wreck him. ZeRo and False covered some very important things with the match-up in their video. Lucas can beat out the Villager/Rosa absorb moves with his tether. The tether also destroys Olimar and other characters with hitboxless returms. He can Zair to ledge, drop-off into a bair for an instant guaranteed kill. He can outcamp most of the cast and has amazing edguarding abilities. He destroys heavyweights due to their combo-bility. DK and ROB are slightly less destroyed due to their nice abilities, but they still get ruined due to their sheer size. Megaman... poor Megaman. His projectiles can all be reflected. His pellets and side-smash can both be absorbed or reflected. Samus's charge shot can be literally demolished by Lucas's PK Fire, nullifying its use. I don't know about Mew2's and Lucario's, but you can absorb it with a PSI Magnet. Rush-downs break his barriers, thus Sheik, Captain Falcon, and Yoshi have been placed above him. Sadly, Little Mac has too weak a recovery and can be grabbed, thrown, then Nair'd, Dair'd, or Fair'd into the abyss. I haven't gotten too many matches with the weird characters, but they don't seem to have any outstanding abilities to get in his way.
 

PKBeam

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unfortunately I don't think our moderator has been very active (which is not necessarily their fault), so if you want weekly discussions, someone will probably have to make a new thread... or hijack this one.
 

Hath

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Okay. So, I've recently picked up Option Selects. I wish I knew what was going on in the videos by Tourney Locator. We need the frame data of Lucas, and we need to learn his OSs. If any of you already have one, let's cover them on another thread.
 

Login_Sinker

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jesus, smashboards has gone downhill. cant even keep a MU thread going.
That depends on the character board. For some reason the Lucas boards are just pretty inactive except for a few threads. Probably because not many people are super invested in him competitively, and as a result there aren't a ton of folks around here.
 

MrWhYYZ

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Honestly, it has a lot to do with moderating. If you look at the Link boards for example you'll see that they have their posters on a very, very short leash when it comes to posting stuff and that works. We don't have a moderator at all after TewnLeenk stopped silently a while back. We need someone who is willing to completely clean this character discussion and then moderate with a iron fist.
Because really, a LOT of stuff should just be posted in the Q&A or in the "This theatre stinks" discussion. Hell, you could even merge the Lucas Movemet disscusion and Kuroganehammer's Framedata with eachother. At least 95% of all posts on page 1 is cludder and should be moved imo.
 

PKBeam

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Honestly, it has a lot to do with moderating. If you look at the Link boards for example you'll see that they have their posters on a very, very short leash when it comes to posting stuff and that works. We don't have a moderator at all after TewnLeenk stopped silently a while back. We need someone who is willing to completely clean this character discussion and then moderate with a iron fist.
Because really, a LOT of stuff should just be posted in the Q&A or in the "This theatre stinks" discussion. Hell, you could even merge the Lucas Movemet disscusion and Kuroganehammer's Framedata with eachother. At least 95% of all posts on page 1 is cludder and should be moved imo.
^ omg this.
I was active on the Link boards back when they had two mods. Although they took their flaming a little far and got some **** for it, their system worked. Anyone who didn't bother to post stuff in the right place got told off, and their thread locked. It was really clean on there, and all the locked threads sank to the bottom of the boards. People were actually using the Q&A and metagame discussion threads, whereas every other characters' Q&A were dead because all the questions were being posted as new threads.
Now they're a lot more chill after someone got de-modded but they're still locking junk threads and their boards are still clean.

We should have something like that here.
 

Login_Sinker

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lagoniusmaximus
How about that Cloud MU? I've played it a few times against players on Anther's and it just seems really difficult. Cloud outranges us hard and he's got good frame data to boot.
 

MrWhYYZ

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Cloud MU is similar to Little mac imo. Onstage we lose not due Cloud's range but more due D-tilt going under PK-fire/Z-air.
Off-stage however it's superfree hovering above the ledge with magnet spiking him really easily with B-air. (Or styling with Magnet and going for a stagespike.)
Not similar to mac though, I think with lose it but very slighty.
 

1Twinmuduck

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Can I get some help fighting against yoshi? I play pretty aggressively(in general) with cross up nairs, well spaced fairs and conditioning tactics, but I just get camped with eggs all the time.

I've tried high dairs to keep him grounded but I just get hit with eggs, I've tried air dodge approach in to aerial but I get stuffed with nair, and the yoshi doesn't say grounded enough to get a grab against. If I try to approach from beneath I some times get an up air but I just get down B'd on half the time. I read it sometimes too and try to get an up smash but he reads my read and I get punished for using a laggy move.

Even when I do get a good combo starter he can just mash A and I can't extend my combos, so I end up only doing like 20% punishes for winning neutral. Literally half of the games are just the yoshi going to center stage and spamming eggs and I can't find a counter tactic, each game almost goes to time because of this. I've tried camping back with pkfire and zair but the eggs just shut me down with their superior range and higher level of "spamablity". I've tried switching c stick to specials so my pkfires are safer but I can't hit him when he's so high.

I'm really frustrated with this matchup, it really puts me on tilt and crushes my momentum, so any help would be appreciated!
 

MrWhYYZ

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I'm really frustrated with this matchup, it really puts me on tilt and crushes my momentum, so any help would be appreciated!
I´ve played this match multiple times and camping right back is the most viable tactic tbh. Your C-stick should always be on specials, there isn't any reason not to have it on specials. The ease you can throw wave-bounce PK-fire outweighs attack imo. (Smash isn't useful at all)
Never approach if you don´t have to, PK-fire breaks his eggs while exploding giving you an active hitbox to hit Yoshi with. Z-air isn't that useful in this match-up.
If you find Yoshi mashing A, then either you're not doing your combo "tight"enough or it isn't a combo at all. If he mashes and lands with it he's 0 so if he keeps mashing something your jab should win but it's better to try and reset the situation.
 
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1Twinmuduck

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If you find Yoshi mashing A, then either you're not doing your combo "tight"enough or it isn't a combo at all. If he mashes and lands with it he's 0 so if he keeps mashing something your jab should win but it's better to try and reset the situation.
Thanks for the advice, I prefer to not change in game controls because I play other games like melee and PM, and I like to have quick oos options like up smash and up air. It might feel wonky to switch but Ill definitely have to give that a try and I guess get my camp on.

Also when I mentioned getting "combo broken" with Yoshis nair I mean I get naired for dumb stuff like sour spot fair or just falling out of my nair. I know it's my fault for not spacing correctly but I just wanted to give more context. Also not to sound ungrateful(because I am very grateful) but is there any thing else you can share with me? I don't know how much applying more of one move is going to help. I'm pretty sure this MU is like 40/60 or worse. Once again thank you!
 
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MrWhYYZ

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Thanks for the advice, I prefer to not change in game controls because I play other games like melee and PM, and I like to have quick oos options like up smash and up air. It might feel wonky to switch but Ill definitely have to give that a try and I guess get my camp on.

Also when I mentioned getting "combo broken" with Yoshis nair I mean I get naired for dumb stuff like sour spot fair or just falling out of my nair. I know it's my fault for not spacing correctly but I just wanted to give more context. Also not to sound ungrateful(because I am very grateful) but is there any thing else you can share with me? I don't know how much applying more of one move is going to help. I'm pretty sure this MU is like 40/60 or worse. Once again thank you!
Lucas's OoS Up-smash and Up-air are kinda pointless to say the least. (I use L to jump so OoS up-smash isn't that hard) It's not more of one move but more less of other moves that will help. Yoshi is way too safe to deal with upclose so avoiding getting near is the best way to deal with it. I haven't played this match-up after the patch though and I lost pre-patch against the second best Yoshi main in my country 2-1 because I was playing to aggressive (And I misread my Lylat cruise pick.) I think it's 50/50 it's just extremely boring and tedious.
 
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1Twinmuduck

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Walla walla
Lucas's OoS Up-smash and Up-air are kinda pointless to say the least. (I use L to jump so OoS up-smash isn't that hard) It's not more of one move but more less of other moves that will help. Yoshi is way too safe to deal with upclose so avoiding getting near is the best way to deal with it. I haven't played this match-up after the patch though and I lost pre-patch against the second best Yoshi main in my country 2-1 because I was playing to aggressive (And I misread my Lylat cruise pick.) I think it's 50/50 it's just extremely boring and tedious.
Thank you for your help!
 

franco_fischer

Smash Rookie
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Dec 16, 2015
Messages
2
any tips for the Lucas Vs. Robin matchup? I can't approach, and if I do, he uses his rapid jab :(
 

that_rock

Smash Rookie
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Sep 15, 2015
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23
Let's get a discussion going! Your opinions on Lucas vs Kirby? IMO its 50:50 but I don't have the matchup experience with this one to back it.
 

Hath

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Trollburger
Let's be honest. Kirby sucks. PK Freeze is a good move and all, but it doesn't really help Kirby all that much. Kirby can kinda diminish his edgeguarding ability, and float out of some combos, but I feel as if Lucas is just straight up better. I have fought plenty Kirbys online, but none of them could consistently win.

D-smash ruins Kirby's recovery from below the ledge and Up-smash as well as Lucas's aerials forces him into bad situations. Unless Kirby ALWAYS sweetspots ledge, he's practically toast. Also, Zair ledge-trump could pop him off into a meteor smash if they're not careful. His return might attack upwards, but we could space away from the ledge and take them out.
 
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