Data Phrygia's Notebook - Lucas Matchup Discussion

[PK Drako]

Just saying, PK FIre is not useless. It is really good in this MU and if you get pushed back when he does cape it, you won't get hit.

Well that mistake i had means that i have to learn more about the character.

 

[EdreesesPieces]

I know I will catch a lot of crap for this, but I think the Rosaluma MU is in Lucas' favor. I play it from a distance, baiting out Luma until it dies, then go to combo dat ***. You can snipe Luma with PK Freeze mixups, and give it a hard time getting close to you with PK fire and forward smash. Once Luma is out of the way you will have a much easier time.Regarding Mario, be careful about his cape - since you have so much cooldown with many of Lucas' attacks, and relatively low priority on PKT2, you can get caught in a bad situation if he throws out a clever cape. Also, his slide attack can get tricky while he approaches you so you may have to read it for punish.

There's a magic antidote to the cape (and other reflector type things, like Palutena's reflector) with PKT2. Always angle your PKT2 at angles less than 30 degrees. There's no reason Lucas can't still grab the ledge even after being caped with his aerial mobility. Just make sure you keep PKT2 to small angles. Mario may get another hit off, but the gimping shouldn't happen, we aren't Ness. I have played good mario mains who have caped me TWICE in the same PKT2 animation and I still made my way over to the ledge. Alternatively you can recover VERY low and PKT2 straight up. It's really hard for him to cape you down that low. I would honestly say it is equally like he will cape gimp you as you would back air spike him, but you wouldn't approach the matchup saying mario can get gimped because we can bair spike him.

There should be no cape gimps unless you aren't thinking properly about the right way to recover. If you PKT2 with no real plan you will always be gimped for sure.

 

[Login_Sinker]

There's a magic antidote to the cape (and other reflector type things, like Palutena's reflector) with PKT2. Always angle your PKT2 at angles less than 30 degrees. There's no reason Lucas can't still grab the ledge even after being caped with his aerial mobility. Just make sure you keep PKT2 to small angles. Mario may get another hit off, but the gimping shouldn't happen, we aren't Ness. I have played good mario mains who have caped me TWICE in the same PKT2 animation and I still made my way over to the ledge. Alternatively you can recover VERY low and PKT2 straight up. It's really hard for him to cape you down that low. I would honestly say it is equally like he will cape gimp you as you would back air spike him, but you wouldn't approach the matchup saying mario can get gimped because we can bair spike him.

There should be no cape gimps unless you aren't thinking properly about the right way to recover. If you PKT2 with no real plan you will always be gimped for sure.

Well, I think if a Mario managed to cape PKT2, they would follow up with a Fair spike if it looked like you were going to make it back. That being said, I think we just wanna try to avoid the cape in general. If it can't be helped, then I do think he can kill us pretty easily from there. Heck, F-smashing us when we try to land on the ledge would work just as well.

 

[SpaceDong]

I think we should focus on a few matchups that are probably the most common for now honestly and get to some more obscure ones later, anyone have any thoughts on fighting these 3 characters?

 

[Login_Sinker]

I know for Ness, you want to try to get him off stage and eat his PK thunder, and try to space him out in the neutral. For Luigi, space him out with Zairs and PK fire (pretty effective against him) and eat his fire balls if he starts throwing them. I know you also want to try and similarly space Mario out as well (since he has poor range), and do whatever you can to make sure he doesn't get in on you, because he can hurt you bad when he does.

 

[manrangan]

For Falco, I've discovered that you can reflect his reflector with Lucas' stick, that should help with his match up.

 

[meleebrawler]

For Falco, I've discovered that you can reflect his reflector with Lucas' stick, that should help with his match up.

That doesn't do jack to Falco, there's simply no point in doing that.

 

[manrangan]

That doesn't do jack to Falco, there's simply no point in doing that.

It makes Falco trip.

 

[Login_Sinker]

Just as a suggestion, maybe we should structure this thread like they do over on the Sonic boards: http://smashboards.com/threads/soni...chups-chapter-16-17-meta-knight-mario.390575/

They vote for a new character or two to discuss each week, and then compile a list of information on the match up on the first page afterwards. It's efficient, and looks quite nice.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

For the first time, Rosalina is analyzing Lucas at her sub-forum. If you have anything to contribute for the Rosalina vs. Lucas match-up, please head to the following thread link...

http://smashboards.com/threads/416751/

As for the directory thread itself...

http://smashboards.com/threads/404194/

 

[xDizxy]

Who wins the vs Matchup? Ness outranges lucas with aerials. Lucas can absorb ness pk thunder offstage.

 

[JesterJaded]

Who wins the vs Matchup? Ness outranges lucas with aerials. Lucas can absorb ness pk thunder offstage.

I can't say for certain as far as the neutral and ground game go, but I'm pretty sure we should be able to consistently force Ness to recover low with offstage PK Fire (and Zair?), then absorb PKT. The same can't be said for Ness since we can recover from waaaaay out close to the blast zone or tether.

 

[PKBeam]

Lucas still does a good job of not getting grabbed (and that's really important against Ness) but he really does have to wait for a mistake or a gimp opportunity to get grabs or safe kills. We can't really throw out kill moves, at least not without a definite risk of getting grabbed.

I think Ness does have a slight range advantage on his Fair vs. ours but he obviously can't just throw out SH aerials because SHPKF/Zair make it unsafe.
High up is not really a good place for us at all. Uair isn't worth it if you stand a chance of getting killed by Ness'. Zair and PKF are both mediocre in the air.

Offstage has been drawn out pretty well but it's worthwhile to note that even if you miss the PKT with magnet, simply zapping Ness with it can get a stock or put him in a bad place in the mid-high % range. As for safer options, Dsmash third hit outspaces ledge sweetspot iirc and you can send your PKT to cancel Ness'.

I think it's even or slight adv. Ness (-1).

 

[JesterJaded]

Lucas still does a good job of not getting grabbed (and that's really important against Ness) but he really does have to wait for a mistake or a gimp opportunity to get grabs or safe kills. We can't really throw out kill moves, at least not without a definite risk of getting grabbed.

I think Ness does have a slight range advantage on his Fair vs. ours but he obviously can't just throw out SH aerials because SHPKF/Zair make it unsafe.
High up is not really a good place for us at all. Uair isn't worth it if you stand a chance of getting killed by Ness'. Zair and PKF are both mediocre in the air.

Offstage has been drawn out pretty well but it's worthwhile to note that even if you miss the PKT with magnet, simply zapping Ness with it can get a stock or put him in a bad place in the mid-high % range. As for safer options, Dsmash third hit outspaces ledge sweetspot iirc and you can send your PKT to cancel Ness'.

I think it's even or slight adv. Ness (-1).

I don't think the ground game is as abysmal as people make it seem against Ness. We can outspace him pretty well, and statistically if we mix up PK Fire with Zair, we'll absorb Ness's PK Fire more often than he absorbs ours and can potentially get a Zair conversion if the Ness misreads and tries to Magnet our Zair.

We have an about even output of comboing Ness in terms of damage, but only if we get the grab, which will naturally be determined by hard reads, punishes, or anything shield-grabbable unless we're lucky enough to land our grab conversions (hint: unlikely). Ness of course has to get in to get the grab, so I'm tempted to say these two disadvantages cancel each other out.

Needless to say I don't think we need to be too terrified of B-throw - respect the heck out of it, sure, but don't forget we can kill about as early with jablock conversions, and if we get the grab ourselves around that percent we can throw Ness offstage and go for the edgeguard where we have the distinct advantage.

Edit: in theory, PK Freeze could also be a threat here considering that it's a moving time-bomb hitbox that eats airdodges for breakfast and has little endlag, which can scare the Ness player into recovering low.

Overall I'd say we have it even, if not 45 / 55 our favor.

 

[Login_Sinker]

I got absolutely stomped by a Link in a bout of friendlies on Anther's Ladder. I kept getting hit by his projectile wall and had a hard time getting in, and when I did, he'd almost always squirm out of the corner. I had a similar experience with a Mega Man as well. Granted, the connection was kind of terrible and I was sleepy, but still, how do you handle match ups with strong zoners like that?

 

[Agent Emerald]

Glad to know I'm not the only one who struggles with heavy zoners

Remember you have two anti projectile options: PSI magnet for absorbing energy projectiles (and Explosions), and Fsmash which is practically Mario's cape in FSmash form (our 14-15 frame active hitbox vs Mario's 12-14). Don't forget to practice your powershields too and mix them up so that you don't end up being predictable.

With Link, while our framedata beats his, his range is pretty big even without projectiles thanks to the Master Sword and Hookshot (WHY DID THEY BUFF IT'S RANGE AAAGH). If you can get him offstage you are set as long as you don't get caught in the spin slash.

Mega Man has more energy projectiles, so he'll be wary when throwing out an fsmash so you won't be ready to absorb it. he can also throw Metal blades with his buster almost seamlessly to punish us absorbing jab and nair. He's no slouch in melee as well, sporting some decently fast options in dtilt and fair; however, more often than not his moves with fast startup have some bad endlag (Dash attack in particular), so punish away when he messes up. Mega Man is easier to gimp since even if he regains rush after getting hit, without his second jump he lacks the horizontal distance to make it back.

 

[PKBeam]

Firstly, you have to think about how you approach the projectile wall.
Some Links do Gale followed by an arrow. In that case you hit back the Gale so it drags them offstage during B charge.
Some Links Gale, then pull out a bomb. Just run up, PS the rang and use it to get in close.
You have to adapt your approach technique to their pattern, and if they don't have a pattern you need to start guessing.
Your ultimate goal is to get in while taking as little damage as possible - remember that and build your approaches around it.

Once you do get in, they either put up a fight or try to GTFO.
To GTFO most Links will just roll away, jump away and drop a bomb, or knock you off and run back.
For the most part it's just another guessing game but you do really want to have all bases covered.
Link actually does alright in close range, the main thing you want to watch for is Jab2 cancel - that often leads into a grab, Utilt or Dsmash. Dair and Nair are just not really good on shield here, because he can either drop shield and Utilt or just Up-B OoS, so you have to wait for him to mess up or get a good read.

One thing most people screw up is putting all their attention on getting in, getting past those arrows and boomerangs and everything else is thrown into a corner of neglect.

Don't just approach with a running shield at 140%. That gets you grabbed and killed.
Don't haphazardly attack his shield. Wrong place, wrong time and Up-B/Usmash OoS will end the stock at 90%+.
Also don't leave yourself open to stupid stuff like a random tipper Dash Attack that kills at 80 or a no-effort sweetspot Dsmash that ploughs through your approach.

 

[xDizxy]

Any tips against robin?

 

[PKBeam]

Robin is kind of like Link except camping is much more conservative, but Robin gets easier kills off of Arcfire and Arcthunder/Thoron. You can force Robin to approach by holding out Magnet (an exception to this is if they start camping you with items). As for actually using Magnet, don't, unless you really need the %. Only Elthunder and Elwind actually heal double digits, so reflect everything else.

Robin is pretty slow, smashes laggy and fairly punishable and grab is almost as slow as ours... so shieldgrabbing is riskier for them and it means we have a little more room to throw around aerials and attacks. Don't forget Nosferatu, and don't get hit by it from behind.

If you don't get hit by one of the strong killers (Smashes, and LS aerials) and you survive up to ~130%, that's when Robins start looking for Jab, Bthrow and Thoron/Arcthunder kills. Arcfire sets up for kills as well. If they hold a book then watch out for that too, especially offstage. If you pay close attention you might net a Thoron reflect kill around about 110 (?).

Be careful when you go offstage to gimp - DJ Airdodge -> Elwind can backspike Bair-happy people.

 

[Login_Sinker]

All right, new conversation topic. What are Lucas's overall match ups with the competitive characters like? In my experience so far, I'd say Fox, Sheik, and Mario are potentially his worst ones. Characters with lots of mobility and really fast attacks seem to give him the most trouble because they are the hardest to grab, and are very hard to effectively bait. Strong zoners can also be a pain if they're smart and don't get their stuff absorbed/hit back, since Lucas isn't very good at breaking walls. Come to think of it, I think Lucas has kind of bad match ups with every high/top tier character except maybe Rosalina. Thoughts?

 

[WispBae]

Hey there Tazmily Boys! The Doggy boards are discussing this MU and would love your input!

Click this picture of MLG Lucas to teleport to the thread! (Make sure you have a running start!)

 

[MrWhYYZ]

All right, new conversation topic. What are Lucas's overall match ups with the competitive characters like? In my experience so far, I'd say Fox, Sheik, and Mario are potentially his worst ones. Characters with lots of mobility and really fast attacks seem to give him the most trouble because they are the hardest to grab, and are very hard to effectively bait. Strong zoners can also be a pain if they're smart and don't get their stuff absorbed/hit back, since Lucas isn't very good at breaking walls. Come to think of it, I think Lucas has kind of bad match ups with every high/top tier character except maybe Rosalina. Thoughts?

Characters with extremely high mobility, strong zoners and Diddy are his worst match-ups.
In my experience Fox isn't fast enough to consistantly go past your zoning and he gets combo'd and gimped way to hard to be a hard match-up.
IMO he wins the brothers, Ness, Luma, loses the rest but not very hard.
Imo Diddy, Megaman and Sonic are his worst match-ups.
Diddy and Megaman can punish his PK-fire zoning game with jump-cancel projectile throw rendering it useless.
And Sonic is way too fast to deal with for lucas, he has no quick aerial.

 

[Kodystri]

Guys, how the do you fight Samus? I did fine vs ESam's Yoshi and Pikachu(Went to last hit) but his Samus just BOPPED me.

 

[Agent Emerald]

Nice to know I'm not the only one with Samus problems. It feels like we should Combo her, but her floatyness makes it really difficult.

 

[Patriot Duck]

Guys, how the do you fight Samus? I did fine vs ESam's Yoshi and Pikachu(Went to last hit) but his Samus just BOPPED me.

I would play the long-range game. Reflect missiles and absorb charge shots. Aim to get a decent percent lead, then force Samus to approach and react accordingly.

 

[MrWhYYZ]

The biggest problem is that there aren't a lot of samus mains out there (For a good reason). But I usually outcamp her and go for a time-out, her projectile game isn't as good as it should be and can easily be reflected or absorbed. If you do get hit, take advantage of her weak multihitting moves and SDI out of them. For Up-air SDI away. For F-air SDI down and towards For Up-B Up and away. And for Up-smash Down and away. Also when you see her charging her F-smash just slowwalk into her and you won't get hit because that hitbox stinks.
Most scariest thing she has is B-air, which can kill somewhat early so you need to take it into account during the neutral if she does approuch.
AND NEVER SHIELD DOWN B IF SHE HAS A FULL CHARGESHOT. YOU WILL DIE! Instashield-breaks are a thing.

 

[K3H]

You really need to stay on top of her. Giving her any space at all os the biggest mistake you can make while fighting her. Especially since we have tools to invalidate her usage of projectiles.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

hello Lucas Boards, the Zelda boards would like to invite you over for a friendly matchup discussion if you would so kindly join us

over at this link

 

[Lunacywastaken]

I can assure you all that Sonic is Lucas' worst MU. He has far more superior ground and aerial speed, making Lucas vulnerable to his quick attacks and retreats. Lucas also relies on his grab, which makes it even more worse as he finds it hard to rack up damage and kill Sonic. So in my opinion he would be 80:20 in Sonic's favour.

 

[meleebrawler]

I can assure you all that Sonic is Lucas' worst MU. He has far more superior ground and aerial speed, making Lucas vulnerable to his quick attacks and retreats. Lucas also relies on his grab, which makes it even more worse as he finds it hard to rack up damage and kill Sonic. So in my opinion he would be 80:20 in Sonic's favour.

Just because Lucas gets his best stuff from grabs doesn't mean he's reliant on them. Zair and PK Fire do work to slow Sonic down and keep him honest with his approaches, though it is true that Lucas can struggle to catch Sonic if he plays defensively.

 

[Lunacywastaken]

Just because Lucas gets his best stuff from grabs doesn't mean he's reliant on them. Zair and PK Fire do work to slow Sonic down and keep him honest with his approaches, though it is true that Lucas can struggle to catch Sonic if he plays defensively.

That does work, however Sonic can move around his zoning tools due to his superior mobility, and the fact that Lucas' zoning tools are horizontally-based. Off-topic, Sonic can also edgeguard Lucas to death. This happened to me many times when I played against Sonic.

 

[Kodystri]

Your response from your thread.

EDIT: I just realised there was a Lucas MU thread already, my b. I would take this down but I don't know how to, so I'll keep this on as my MU thread.

Hello fellow Lucas mains!

I'm Lunacy, a Lucas main from Sydney, Australia. As you can tell I'm new here on Smashboards.

Because I haven't seen anyone post a MU thread for Lucas yet (or maybe I'm blind), I'm posting mine. Some of these I'm not completely sure due to lack of experience in the MU, so please discuss, and I will change this according to feedback and more personal labbing/experience! This is in alphabetical order, not from best to worst on one tier. Mii Fighters are considered in their 1111 custom set.

Lucas MU chart (based off 1.1.2)​

-3

-2

-1

0

+1

+2

From this chart of mine, I can conclude that Lucas is lying on the lower-middle section of the tier list.

Thanks for reading! Feedback is greatly appreciated.

I know this is suppose to be here, but I am going to say a few things about your MUs.

If you have Sonic at -3, you probably have Sonic problems. I think the MU personalyl is -1. PK Fire and Grabs are really good in this MU. And we have one of the best Anti-Airs in the game(though laggy and risky), so abuse that once he is in the air. Nair, Grabs, Up Smash, Utilt, etc are Anti-airs.

Sheik imo is -1. I do much better with Lucas than I ever do with Ness. Campy Sheiks, however, I have trouble with.

Can't say much about ZSS, though I beat the number 3 player in South Carolina, a ZSS Main with Lucas. so maybe its -1. I do think it isn't in our favor.

-Like Sheik, I had much success with Lucas than I ever do with Ness. I usually almost always win with Lucas when I fail to as Ness. IMO even.

I think Diddy Kong is -2, probably because I have Diddy Problems though.

Even though many people disagree with me, we can edgeguard Fox with ease, however, we have a hard time in neutral. PK Fire is fairly solid in this MU. We basically want Fox either in the air or offstage. +0 imo.

From my personal experience offline(I have major troubles with Rosalina online), We edgeguard her solidly, PK Fire is a pain for Rosalina to deal with, PK Freeze is good in this MU, and we can juggle her to oblivion while she has difficulties edgeguarding us. Even in my opinion.

Is one of our worst Matchups. He constantly can control neutral, fast for us, many attacks are lagless, and he can control the pace of the game so well. Our zoning tools are not good in this MU. Only advantage we have is our edgeguarding and combo abilities. Falcon however can do the same thing. -2 in my opinion

We don't win the MU just because we can gimp Ness

Your reasoning on why we win?

We don't win jsut because they are big and combo food.

Those are the ones that got me. Many others are placed different because of my experiences. Also, if you are not sure, do not put them on the list .

 

[meleebrawler]

That does work, however Sonic can move around his zoning tools due to his superior mobility, and the fact that Lucas' zoning tools are horizontally-based. Off-topic, Sonic can also edgeguard Lucas to death. This happened to me many times when I played against Sonic.

If you're getting edgeguarded to death by Sonic, you probably need to learn to mixup your recovery more. Practice PKT2 and abuse the fact you can wait till you're near the blastzone.

Don't see Falcon as that bad. Most of his stuff for approaching actually have noticeable endlag, dash grab and bair are the least laggy so just watch for those two. Also don't see how our zoning is ineffective against him when it works against Sonic, sure it won't keep him out for too long but it'll slow him down noticeably. About as hard as Sonic.

 

[Lunacywastaken]

Your response from your thread.

Thanks for your feedback! :D
This is from my personal experience so it may differ to you. Just so I justify my placements.
I play the best Sonic arguably in Australia so it could be that. Campy Sheiks are pretty much why I put Sheik on -2. ZSS has better mobility than us, so she can punish hard, however she has the same problem with grabs so I get your point. I think Pit/Dark Pit are harder due to the fact they can't be gimped and out-ranges Lucas. Diddy Kong might be your Diddy problems because personally I don't find him hard. I agree with you on Fox, Captain Falcon and Rosalina, although Rosalina can still edgeguard and gimp us due to Lucas' vulnerability. With Olimar, I don't have experience with (I put everyone on the list for the sake of completeness, my bad). But I know that one up-air with Lucas can kill all the Pikmin hanging off him, so I based my placement off that (bad reasoning I know). I have played Bowsers and Ganondorfs, and all I can say is that I annihilated them with Lucas.


I know this is suppose to be here, but I am going to say a few things about your MUs.

If you have Sonic at -3, you probably have Sonic problems. I think the MU personalyl is -1. PK Fire and Grabs are really good in this MU. And we have one of the best Anti-Airs in the game(though laggy and risky), so abuse that once he is in the air. Nair, Grabs, Up Smash, Utilt, etc are Anti-airs.

Sheik imo is -1. I do much better with Lucas than I ever do with Ness. Campy Sheiks, however, I have trouble with.

Can't say much about ZSS, though I beat the number 3 player in South Carolina, a ZSS Main with Lucas. so maybe its -1. I do think it isn't in our favor.

-Like Sheik, I had much success with Lucas than I ever do with Ness. I usually almost always win with Lucas when I fail to as Ness. IMO even.

I think Diddy Kong is -2, probably because I have Diddy Problems though.

Even though many people disagree with me, we can edgeguard Fox with ease, however, we have a hard time in neutral. PK Fire is fairly solid in this MU. We basically want Fox either in the air or offstage. +0 imo.

From my personal experience offline(I have major troubles with Rosalina online), We edgeguard her solidly, PK Fire is a pain for Rosalina to deal with, PK Freeze is good in this MU, and we can juggle her to oblivion while she has difficulties edgeguarding us. Even in my opinion.

Is one of our worst Matchups. He constantly can control neutral, fast for us, many attacks are lagless, and he can control the pace of the game so well. Our zoning tools are not good in this MU. Only advantage we have is our edgeguarding and combo abilities. Falcon however can do the same thing. -2 in my opinion

We don't win the MU just because we can gimp Ness

Your reasoning on why we win?

We don't win jsut because they are big and combo food.

Those are the ones that got me. Many others are placed different because of my experiences. Also, if you are not sure, do not put them on the list .

 

[Lunacywastaken]

If you're getting edgeguarded to death by Sonic, you probably need to learn to mixup your recovery more. Practice PKT2 and abuse the fact you can wait till you're near the blastzone.

Don't see Falcon as that bad. Most of his stuff for approaching actually have noticeable endlag, dash grab and bair are the least laggy so just watch for those two. Also don't see how our zoning is ineffective against him when it works against Sonic, sure it won't keep him out for too long but it'll slow him down noticeably. About as hard as Sonic.

Fair enough, I'll play more against the Sonic MU to confirm, thanks!

 

[Kodystri]

Fair enough, I'll play more against the Sonic MU to confirm, thanks!

oh btw I wasn't trying to be rude or anything. I am just giving some opinions.

 

[Lunacywastaken]

oh btw I wasn't trying to be rude or anything. I am just giving some opinions.

Yeah of course, no problem. We are here to help each other out to beat those pesky characters.

Oh I forgot to mention Ness. In my opinion, in the neutral Lucas can just zone Ness out, from my experience anyway. And Ness gets edgeguarded hard.

 

[Kodystri]

If you're getting edgeguarded to death by Sonic, you probably need to learn to mixup your recovery more. Practice PKT2 and abuse the fact you can wait till you're near the blastzone.

Don't see Falcon as that bad. Most of his stuff for approaching actually have noticeable endlag, dash grab and bair are the least laggy so just watch for those two. Also don't see how our zoning is ineffective against him when it works against Sonic, sure it won't keep him out for too long but it'll slow him down noticeably. About as hard as Sonic.

Well if Sonic Commits to Spin Dash, we can PK Fire and Grab. Falcon doesn't have to commit until he is in our face, so a missed PK Fire from even the furthest distance will get us punished. I might be bias because I play Fatality all the time idk.

Edit: Sonic's approach option when not using Spin Dash is using footsies to mess with you or grab you. Sometimes they will run past you and Spin Dash you. Punish accordingly. It is tough. I do think we lose the MU.

Falcon on the other hand, can effectively Dance Trot until he sees and opening and then punish us or catch us off guard. Sonic doesn't have the best Dance Trot, so he can't fake us out as hard. Also Falcon's offstage is much more deadlier than Sonic's. I rarely ever get edgeguarded by Sonic and the only time i do is when i get stage spiked by the spring. All Falcon requires is put us in a situation where we have to use PKT and predict when we are going to grab the edge.

 

[PKBeam]

Falcon is definitely not a favourable MU.
If you play an aggressive Falcon it's not so bad, but as soon as you find yourself up against one that knows how to play then you're at a significant disadvantage.

PKF/Zair are not always punishable but they're certainly less effective. All our aerials aren't very safe on shield and some of our ground attacks are the same.

Falcon also has an easier time edgeguarding Lucas than other top tiers.

 

[meleebrawler]

Fair enough, I'll play more against the Sonic MU to confirm, thanks!

Not just that. I think a lot of people need practice with using PKT2 effectively to make Lucas that much harder to edgeguard. It may not be as risky to challenge as Ness's but that doesn't really matter if they can't reach you to challenge in the first place.

Is it that easy for Falcon to spike/bair Lucas in the middle of PKT2?