Data Phrygia's Notebook - Lucas Matchup Discussion

[Shrug]

I'm not particularly experienced against Kirby, but from my experience, he has a lot of trouble interacting with Lucas's shield. Part of this might just come from the fact that the Kirby I played was trying to space aerials on my shield. It works against some characters, but Lucas's grab range is just too good.

Other than that, it seems like Kirby could only really get something going if he managed to poke me with down tilt. It had better range than I expected, so some of my grab attempts got stuffed.

Kirby also seems to want to catch me in the air with up tilts. Maybe Kirby could get some mileage by crossing up Lucas's shield and up air-ing. I'm not sure how good Kirby's aerials are for shield cross-ups, tbh.

PK Fire zoning feels a bit difficult because of Kirby's low crouch. Shooting low PK Fires is definitely an option, but you might be better off with other options. Mixing in low zairs and crossup nairs helps to keep Kirby honest in the neutral. My main goal against Kirby is to land a nair or a grab and then let Lucas's awesome punish game do the rest.

I didn't feel like FH AC dair was all that useful against Kirby because of how short he is. It can still be nice to throw out and cross him up for stage positioning, but overall, it doesn't feel that great against him.

Kirby's probably going to have trouble dealing with your shield, as mentioned earlier. His grab just isn't that much of a threat. He might get one f-air off of a grab, and he can kill you at higher percents (slightly lower, but still high, percents if platforms/janky blast zones are involved). So it seems like any time Kirby attempts to hit you, you can just shield with little worry.

It felt easier than expected to land some bairs/dairs when trying to edgegaurd him. Some well-timed air dodges might make it harder, but overall, it felt pretty low-risk to try bair/dair on him. His up b hitbox isn't particularly scary. Even catching him with fairs at some points seems like a decent idea since he gets very little horizontal distance from his up b. If you can hit him away after he has used a few jumps, he'll have a hard time making it back.

I didn't try dtilt/dsmash to catch Kirby at the ledge, so I can't say if this is a good idea in this MU.

Recovering against Kirby might be a little tricky. He's definitely capable of going out after you and catching you with a bair/dair/nair of his own, but proper mixups between PKT and rope snake should make this a bit more difficult for Kirby.

Kirby is a bit harder to combo than some other characters, but it's still definitely doable. Kirby can try to stop you from juggling him by dairing, but if you can bait it out, there's a pretty decent window of time to punish him afterwards.

So overall, it feels like Lucas simply has more options in most situations. Kirby's limitations, especially in his interactions with shields, make things rather difficult for him. I'm not great with MU ratios, but I think I'd give it to Lucas 6:4, at least.

The above is just what I gathered from playing a few games against a local Melee player who picked up Smash 4 Kirby recently. Take this with a grain of salt since I'm admittedly not an expert on Lucas by any means. I love the character, but Melee's still my main focus atm.

 

[JesterJaded]

HaKii's Lucas vs. Mew²'s Mewtwo:https://youtu.be/hYjALZCetfE.

HaKii's Lucas vs. Hyrule Hero's Link:https://youtu.be/hYjALZCetfE.

In light of recent buffs, there's been some talk about Mewtwo and Link ascending higher on the tier lists, and HaKii was gracious enough to provide us with tournament analysis for these matchups.

As for Mewtwo: while I haven't had much personal experience with the matchup, based on this tournament his weaknesses seem particularly pronounced against Lucas (extremely light with high fall speed / giant hurtbox); big 50+ damage combos become easy mode here with our kill options out of grab being particularly devastating. Combine that with Lucas' tools to wall out and torment Mewtwo with Zair / PK Fire and you have one very sad test-tube Pokemon. I can't place an exact ratio here, but it looks very bad for Mewtwo.

As for Link: HaKii illustrates well how Lucas can cancel out Link's neutral game plan with his anti-projectile tools, from Zair snuffing Gale Boomerang to rendering bombs almost entirely obsolete; Link is forced to be very, very careful with one of his most valuable tools in the neutral or Lucas ends up gaining 20+ percent. HaKii also demonstrates how catching the bomb is even more dangerous in this matchup, since not only is the option there to play lame and space out until Lucas heals off the bomb explosion, but the Lucas player also has the option to use Link's own bomb as a combo tool, which can easily earn big damage when combo'd into Nair. Personally, I feel like Lucas wins the matchup, but again the exact figure isn't something I can decide on.

Anyone's thoughts on these two?

 

[Blue Banana]

Hi, the Olimar board is now discussing the Lucas matchup. Any input is appreciated.

 

[that_rock]

Here are my opinions on this page, and where it needs to go:

1. Nobody from other people's matchup threads have as bad of a "manager" than us.
This issue is mainly with running this page. Going to other people's threads and asking for input. Encouraging us to do specific characters. There's no organization, and we just have stray arguments from time to time.

Next few are nitpicks
2. (again, our OP's fault) - we need to keep track of the matchups we covered.
3. Video evidence would be nice to go along with your evidence.
4. (This isn't even serious lol) This should be the Battle Memory. And when we cover Diddy, we're calling it Fassad's Bananas.

 

[MrWhYYZ]

Here are my opinions on this page, and where it needs to go:

1. Nobody from other people's matchup threads have as bad of a "manager" than us.
This issue is mainly with running this page. Going to other people's threads and asking for input. Encouraging us to do specific characters. There's no organization, and we just have stray arguments from time to time.

Next few are nitpicks
2. (again, our OP's fault) - we need to keep track of the matchups we covered.
3. Video evidence would be nice to go along with your evidence.
4. (This isn't even serious lol) This should be the Battle Memory. And when we cover Diddy, we're calling it Fassad's Bananas.

The issue is that when the OP stopped being a moderator we didn't get a new moderator and we STILL have no moderator up to this date. That has led to no organization and at some point some anarchy-thread-spam. We need someone to wipe the Lucas boards clean. A lot of threads should get merged and/or deleted and it should be a lot of work to get this sub-forum up and running again.

(Also Fassad's bananas is hilarious. XD)

 

[Shrug]

Is there any way for us to request a new mod or something? It would be nice to have more direction for matchup discussion here.

 

[BornABrawler]

So... is this thread dead or something? Either way I would like to discuss some matchups of Lucas as well. I've been playing him since he's been out, but with a lack of local tournaments to go to and such, it can be hard to get data. Hopefully I can put in some helpful input without sounding stupid or somewhat bias.

 

[Hath]

So... is this thread dead or something? Either way I would like to discuss some matchups of Lucas as well. I've been playing him since he's been out, but with a lack of local tournaments to go to and such, it can be hard to get data. Hopefully I can put in some helpful input without sounding stupid or somewhat bias.

I'll be honest with you, I've been getting my match-up info from either playing the game myself or going to the other threads' match-up pages. They cover our character pretty well. I recommend you do so as well or just ask directly about certain characters either on here or (preferably) on their threads.

 

[CHOMPY]

Hey guys, the Dark Pit/Pit boards are discussing the Lucas matchup, so I came here to invite you guys to it.

Please go to our Dark Pit/Pit matchup thread below.

http://smashboards.com/threads/batt...lypuff-and-lucas.414936/page-10#post-20800848

 

[Cylent]

Wish this thread was kept up with, would be nice to have a solid lucas mu board

 

[BornABrawler]

Wish this thread was kept up with, would be nice to have a solid lucas mu board

It was stated in the conversation above earlier, but we are in desperate need of a mod for the Lucas forums. Once that is done we can begin making changes that can "revive" the forums. We can still discuss matchups and such here but it won't be recorded and is likely to get lost eventually. So yeah, we are in a bit of a pickle right now. (a fuzzy pickle, hah)

 

[MrWhYYZ]

Does anyone know how we can get a mod for this forum? Who decides it?

 

[BornABrawler]

Does anyone know how we can get a mod for this forum? Who decides it?

We discussed it a bit in the social forums if you feel like reading: http://smashboards.com/threads/pk-love-lucas-social-thread-“inside-the-mailbox-was-absolutely-nothing”.324185/page-174

In short we either have to get an existing mod to take the role of moderating the Lucas forums, or have someone send an application in hopes of becoming a moderator, specifically for the Lucas forums. Because there are quite a few existing moderators it would likely be hard to get the position. And these moderators already have the task of covering several other forums. Unfortunately, we are left in the dark currently.

 

[Login_Sinker]

I actually submitted an application the other day. I may not be the most experienced with forum moderation, but I definitely think I could get this place in order.

 

[BornABrawler]

I actually submitted an application the other day. I may not be the most experienced with forum moderation, but I definitely think I could get this place in order.

I sent in an application as well. I honestly don't mind if I get the moderation position or not. Rather I just really wanted to get the point across that no matter who mods the Lucas forums, we just NEED one. I wish you the best of luck. I can't say the same for myself due to my lack of activity on the forums until recently.

 

[Login_Sinker]

I sent in an application as well. I honestly don't mind if I get the moderation position or not. Rather I just really wanted to get the point across that no matter who mods the Lucas forums, we just NEED one. I wish you the best of luck. I can't say the same for myself due to my lack of activity on the forums until recently.

I feel the same way. As long as we get a mod, I'll be happy.

 

[MrWhYYZ]

I'm sending a application as well.
I should have searched a long time ago instead of just waiting around.

 

[that_rock]

Shift of topic here

First impressions of the Bayo v Lucas and Corrin v Lucas Matchups?

 

[Login_Sinker]

Shift of topic here

First impressions of the Bayo v Lucas and Corrin v Lucas Matchups?

55:45

Lucas has a better neutral than Bayonetta, and can zone her out rather effectively, although he may want to remain grounded more often than not since Bayo's side B will go under aerial PK fire and Zair. Lucas also has a relatively easy time escaping her combos since he is floaty and has a small frame. He can also use his strong off stage game to exploit her mediocre recovery. Bayonetta's advantages lie in her having more range and better frame data on her aerial moves (so she can pressure his shield pretty safely), and her ability to deal chip damage at long range using bullet arts and neutral b. Additionally, while it isn't as easy as on other characters, her crazy combos still work on Lucas, so she can rack up massive amounts of damage off of small punishes. Also, witch time bull****.

55:45

Lucas's big vantage point in this match up is the range game. Using the usual use of PK fire and Zair, Lucas can poke at Corrin pretty safely from a distance. Corrin is unable to camp him back due to us being able to absorb his neutral b (for a lot of percent, might I add), and since he is pretty slow movement-wise, it won't be easy for him to get through Lucas's zoning. Off stage, Lucas won't be pestered too much due to Corrin not having a true spike or any aerials that send at a good gimping angle (save for Bair). Corrin's advantages shine through when at close to mid range. His moves have significantly better range and speed than Lucas's, so he can put on a lot of pressure up close. Off stage, it's actually not particularly easy to gimp him since his up b has such a huge hit box. However, I've found that using FF Nair to trade with it can be fairly reliable for a gimp.

These are just my very early impressions from playing against the characters, and are obviously subject to change.

 

[BornABrawler]

Shift of topic here

First impressions of the Bayo v Lucas and Corrin v Lucas Matchups?

55:45

55:45


These are just my very early impressions from playing against the characters, and are obviously subject to change.

I agree with this, especially for Bayonetta. While Lucas does have the range over Bayonetta, she still has insane combos, power, and of course witch time and bat within. 55:45 is fair to say.

However I do think that Lucas has a bit more of an edge of Corrin in the matchup. Lucas being able to absorb Corrin's neutral b is actually pretty huge, as its her only projectile. Not only that, but if you can reflect the projectile and catch Corrin off guard, whether it be in her end-lag or simple carelessness, it could lead to some pretty nasty punishes if Lucas can capitalize. Corrin still has a fair amount of range, but if Lucas can space PK Fire well enough and punish her side-b (which is one of her major gimmicks) it can be easy to stop Corrin's momentum. Against Corrin I try not to go to far off stage in order to avoid unnecessary damage from Corrin's up-b. Because Corrin isn't terribly heavy, I get most of my kills from back-throw and u-throw, but that is just in my experience. Personally 60:40 seems more reasonable.

I also agree with the notion that these results are likely to change as time goes on. But I suppose it's best to start somewhere.

 

[Login_Sinker]

I agree with this, especially for Bayonetta. While Lucas does have the range over Bayonetta, she still has insane combos, power, and of course witch time and bat within. 55:45 is fair to say.

However I do think that Lucas has a bit more of an edge of Corrin in the matchup. Lucas being able to absorb Corrin's neutral b is actually pretty huge, as its her only projectile. Not only that, but if you can reflect the projectile and catch Corrin off guard, whether it be in her end-lag or simple carelessness, it could lead to some pretty nasty punishes if Lucas can capitalize. Corrin still has a fair amount of range, but if Lucas can space PK Fire well enough and punish her side-b (which is one of her major gimmicks) it can be easy to stop Corrin's momentum. Against Corrin I try not to go to far off stage in order to avoid unnecessary damage from Corrin's up-b. Because Corrin isn't terribly heavy, I get most of my kills from back-throw and u-throw, but that is just in my experience. Personally 60:40 seems more reasonable.

I also agree with the notion that these results are likely to change as time goes on. But I suppose it's best to start somewhere.

Yeah, you could be right on Corrin. I've lost to most of the good ones I've faced, though, so it might be some bias on my part.

 

[MrWhYYZ]

I can't really say anything about Lucas v Bayonetta that isn't just theory crafting so I'll refrain from that discussion.

50:50
But I can say stuff about this match-up having played it nearly daily after the release of Bayo and Corrin.

Lucas's biggest weakness is his inability to land properly and Corrin has F-smash. When spaced F-smash is 100% safe on shield and can break shield in two. Corrins b-air especially is a huge problem as it spaces her far enough to press buttons and not care. The only thing that safes the day for Lucas imo is his damage output compared to corrin. Corrin can combo D-tilt into up-smash at low percentages or D-tilt into aerial but that's pretty much it. He/She has no combos out of throws so Corrin will never do more than 25% per combo. Lucas, however can net much higher damage overall and that's where you can win the match. Of stage you should either ignore Corrin or use a pre-emptive Up-B and try to stagespike her/him. Counter is also very scary. Kills really, REALLY early (I've killed cpt. falcon at 33% countering his knee.) So look out throwing random smashes out. If it gets countered you die. Just be grateful our Up-B isn't strong like Ness. He dies at 45% by just jumping inbetween and countering him.

 

[BornABrawler]

Yeah, you could be right on Corrin. I've lost to most of the good ones I've faced, though, so it might be some bias on my part.

We are still trying to find out everything good and bad about the matchup, so I wouldn't worry about it. Honestly I could be seen as completely incompetent as the weeks go by. The characters have only been out for a short while. We'll see soon enough.

50:50

Lucas's biggest weakness is his inability to land properly and Corrin has F-smash. When spaced F-smash is 100% safe on shield and can break shield in two. Corrins b-air especially is a huge problem as it spaces her far enough to press buttons and not care.

Counter is also very scary. Kills really, REALLY early. So look out throwing random smashes out. If it gets countered you die.

I agree that F-smash and Counter are both really good options for Corrin that can possibly net an early kill. Though after playing Corrin for myself trying to secondary her, I really don't see f-smash as much of an issue. This might only apply for me personally as I've grown to know the distance and timing of the move. That being said it is still deadly, but in retrospective it's already deadly to nearly the entire cast; not just Lucas alone. This pretty much applies to counter as well, since it's a pretty situational move and is a deadly threat against the cast all around. I can see why Lucas would need to be careful however, due to his good damage output and his weight class.

I still feel confident about my previous opinion, but I concede that these are all good things to consider and caution in the matchup.

 

[Login_Sinker]

He dies at 45% by just jumping inbetween and countering him.

I didn't even think about that. We probably do significantly better than Ness does in this match up due to that alone.

 

[Cylent]

It was stated in the conversation above earlier, but we are in desperate need of a mod for the Lucas forums. Once that is done we can begin making changes that can "revive" the forums. We can still discuss matchups and such here but it won't be recorded and is likely to get lost eventually. So yeah, we are in a bit of a pickle right now. (a fuzzy pickle, hah)

Is there just no one who wants to be mod? or what's the deal with that? If it's due to lack of interest I'd be more than happy to mod if that's what we need. I have no prior experience though.

 

[Login_Sinker]

Is there just no one who wants to be mod? or what's the deal with that? If it's due to lack of interest I'd be more than happy to mod if that's what we need. I have no prior experience though.

A few people have applied, so I guess we're just waiting for a response at the moment.

 

[Cylent]

A few people have applied, so I guess we're just waiting for a response at the moment.

Awesome. Hopefully we get someone soon.

 

[Luco]

So is it just me or is anyone else thinking that we secretly have the MU spread of a high tier?

Pacman mains seem to think that we beat them, and I'm pretty sure we do decently against Sonic, Falcon and Ryu (and Ness but do we ever really want to run into our PSI brethren?)

I feel like we do decently vs Bayo too, and Corrin is up in the air for me.

In regards to the Bayo MU, SDI witch twist hard and suddenly her combos won't be killing you any time soon.

I love MU threads but they're hard work to manage. As long as you can get a mod to change the person in charge of the OP you can have this thread up and running again. That being said, we don't have too much evidence to construct our MU chart quite yet because of a lack of top rep, so we need to tread slowly and carefully with whatever it is we want to do.

 

[MrWhYYZ]

Snip.

I honestly think Lucas is high tier, so I wouldn't say secretly high tier spread. Besides Diddy and maybe Villager we don't lose anything worse than 4-6 imo. (I've been picking up Bayonetta for Diddy)

And I know at least 3 people filed a request, hopefully we get a mod soon and we can get the discussions running and stuff organized

 

[BornABrawler]

So is it just me or is anyone else thinking that we secretly have the MU spread of a high tier?

I don't really know if I'd say "secret". We just really haven't had much to be noticed for even though it's there. Whenever I share my opinion about Lucas with others I usually say he rides the line of low high-tier/high mid-tier. I'm still trying to learn matchups as I go, but it can be hard for me to find certain players to test said matchups (offline specifically, which is what I prefer). I just hope we get the mod situation settled soon, because it would be a whole lot easier on all of us if we could properly share and record the data.

 

[Y2Kay]

The greninja boards are discussing the Lucas matchup. I was wondering if anyone would be down to spar with me on 3DS. I wan't to get a good feel for the MU

 

[Luco]

I would but I'm a continent away Chainz!

I'm happy to try it out anyway though if you're keen. :3

 

[Y2Kay]

I would but I'm a continent away Chainz!

I'm happy to try it out anyway though if you're keen. :3

sure, why not? I'll add you

 

[that_rock]

Wow, I think I said this a million times: Lucas is low tier because of representation, or lack of one for that matter. Probably another reason why we don't have a mod.

Anyways, I saw some guy saying he had trouble with the 3 new DLC characters. I honestly don't know that much about bayo/corrin, but I think the things I say are useful anyways.

Cloud's a bad matchup, definitely in his favor, but I don't think by much tbh. Corrin and Bayo, on the other hand, look to be basically even. All of these should be winnable, especially considering how Mekos could place top 8 with the Brawl iteration against literal hell, aka MK's for days.

Learn to bait and punish Bayo. Also learn which direction to SDI (Pink Fresh says to SDI opposite and down of which direction Bayo is going with her specials). Because it's a lost tech in this new game, a lot of people have trouble with Bayo.

Corrin is another character you need to bait and punish, especially if they're counter heavy. Otherwise, play very defensive, because in my opinion, Corrin has some trouble approaching. He's super good at killing, but if you can keep him out and minimize the damage you receive, you should be fine.

Cloud is...ugh. Listen, just zair a lot. Like, abuse it from range. If you can get him in hitstun, grab him. Start perfecting your throw combos because you'll need them against Cloud. You need to be able to get lots of damage off of one mistake of the Cloud. His recovery is predictable, so PK Freeze is actually useful...huh, how about that. Lots of your damage/stock-takes should come off of edgeguards. Dsmash covers Cloud nicely, as does PK Freeze and PKT if you have to. I think angled down Fsmash works too, but don't quote me on that. If he goes too high, don't be afraid to pull a PM Lucas and RAR BAIR.

I'm actually glad that Bayo was added to the game. It made people happy, and it rewards players of other games, mostly Brawl, the most "slow paced game" is such good experience against Bayonetta. SDI and patience.

 

[Eisen]

I can see Bayonetta and Corrin being at worst managable-but-annoying/requiring tons of patience, but Cloud still bothers me. I play Shulk too, so it's like a literally better Shulk in every way. Like, Speed monado Shulk without the damage drawbacks and actual multihit moves to kill spotdodges.

From my experience playing against and AS Cloud (since he's a "better Shulk" I'm inclined to play him at least a little even if I dislike him for that fact), he has all the tools to make life hard for Lucas. Fairly safe projectile that challenges PK Fire easily with a much bigger hitbox, incredible ground speed considering his range and power, decent air mobility, fast moves with lasting hitboxes that are difficult to challenge without at least trading with, great anti-air options like uair and nair that make Lucas think twice about playing it safe in his comfort zone, and the constant threat of Limit Charge and the resulting special attacks that give Cloud an advantage against patient Lucas players. Plus, Cloud's smashes hurt Lucas a LOT since he's fairly light. Slightly less significantly, if Cloud has limit specials active and gets Lucas offstage, it's pretty much a free stock for Cloud.

Honestly, it's probably the most consistently hard matchup I've had to deal with as Lucas besides Greninja. Second hardest for me would be Robin, which is counter-intuitive I know cause you'd think "just absorb Robin's magic" but the thing is that even if you do, it doesn't make approaching any easier for Lucas. Robin has flat-out better zoning, imo, though that could be the fact that my only experience with that MU is online.

 

[Piipp]

The greninja boards are discussing the Lucas matchup. I was wondering if anyone would be down to spar with me on 3DS. I wan't to get a good feel for the MU

How about I just show you at SmashBomb 2 lmao

 

[Shrug]

I haven't fought Cloud a ton, but he seems pretty frustrating to fight.

• He aerials are fast and AC-able.
• He can limit camp you pretty safely, so the onus is on you to approach.
• His combo game (particularly juggles) are really brain-dead easy
• Did I mention how absurdly fast and safe his aerials are?

As you MIGHT be able to tell, I'm pretty salty about Cloud. He just doesn't have to work that hard to get rewarded massively.

Now having said that, I have noticed a few things that might help.

If he has a limit charged, one way to deal with him is to maintain a distance great enough for you to react to him shooting limit neutral b. Then just fsmash it or PSI magnet it. Usually absorbing/reflecting it once will discourage him from attempting it again. Of course, he can still just use Limit Rest (down b), Limit KO Punch (side b), or keep the passive buff and get a stupidly good up b. However, this at least helps you deal with one of the dumb things he gets for limit camping.

Pay attention to how he reacts to you approaching while he's limit camping. Cloud players often do the same thing in reaction to approach attempts. Shooting a PK fire to catch a roll, spot dodge, or aerial can be really rewarding.

Cloud doesn't get much more than stage positioning from his grabs (side from down throw -> side b at really low %s for a free like 20-30%). Keep this in mind when interacting with him. He'll probably want a dash attack, down tilt, or an aerial in the neutral rather than settling for a grab. This means that your shield is stronger option. Combine smart use of your shield with your standard PKF/Zair zoning and spaced fairs to make things more difficult for him.

Consider simply throwing him off-stage instead of attempting to combo him. His nair comes out on frame 5 (not joking), and its massive disjoint can get him out of some disadvantageous situations for free. Attempting to juggle him is also pretty useless since he has up air to beat out any of your options.

Throwing him off-stage, on the other hand allows you to take advantage of one of Cloud's few weaknesses: his non-limit up b. I would recommend trying to catch him with PK Fire or fair if he tries to recover above the stage. If he goes low, down air is probably your best choice. I opt for down air rather than back air because back air requires you to be in front of him (where his hitbox for up b is) or behind him (where he can throw out a back air to reverse the edgeguard if he makes it to the ledge). In my experience, dair is just safer.

It's still a crappy matchup for Lucas, but if you play your cards right, you can definitely overcome his dumb stuff with your own dumb stuff.

Full disclosure: I still haven't beaten any Clouds in bracket (I think I've played 3 different ones), but I have taken games. These are just observations based on what I saw worked when I played. Don't take it as gospel.

 

[Login_Sinker]

He just doesn't have to work that hard to get rewarded massively.

Welcome to top tier nation, son. That'll be $5.99.

 

[Piipp]

I haven't fought Cloud a ton, but he seems pretty frustrating to fight.

• He aerials are fast and AC-able.
• He can limit camp you pretty safely, so the onus is on you to approach.
• His combo game (particularly juggles) are really brain-dead easy
• Did I mention how absurdly fast and safe his aerials are?

As you MIGHT be able to tell, I'm pretty salty about Cloud. He just doesn't have to work that hard to get rewarded massively.

Now having said that, I have noticed a few things that might help.

If he has a limit charged, one way to deal with him is to maintain a distance great enough for you to react to him shooting limit neutral b. Then just fsmash it or PSI magnet it. Usually absorbing/reflecting it once will discourage him from attempting it again. Of course, he can still just use Limit Rest (down b), Limit KO Punch (side b), or keep the passive buff and get a stupidly good up b. However, this at least helps you deal with one of the dumb things he gets for limit camping.

Pay attention to how he reacts to you approaching while he's limit camping. Cloud players often do the same thing in reaction to approach attempts. Shooting a PK fire to catch a roll, spot dodge, or aerial can be really rewarding.

Cloud doesn't get much more than stage positioning from his grabs (side from down throw -> side b at really low %s for a free like 20-30%). Keep this in mind when interacting with him. He'll probably want a dash attack, down tilt, or an aerial in the neutral rather than settling for a grab. This means that your shield is stronger option. Combine smart use of your shield with your standard PKF/Zair zoning and spaced fairs to make things more difficult for him.

Consider simply throwing him off-stage instead of attempting to combo him. His nair comes out on frame 5 (not joking), and its massive disjoint can get him out of some disadvantageous situations for free. Attempting to juggle him is also pretty useless since he has up air to beat out any of your options.

Throwing him off-stage, on the other hand allows you to take advantage of one of Cloud's few weaknesses: his non-limit up b. I would recommend trying to catch him with PK Fire or fair if he tries to recover above the stage. If he goes low, down air is probably your best choice. I opt for down air rather than back air because back air requires you to be in front of him (where his hitbox for up b is) or behind him (where he can throw out a back air to reverse the edgeguard if he makes it to the ledge). In my experience, dair is just safer.

It's still a crappy matchup for Lucas, but if you play your cards right, you can definitely overcome his dumb stuff with your own dumb stuff.

Full disclosure: I still haven't beaten any Clouds in bracket (I think I've played 3 different ones), but I have taken games. These are just observations based on what I saw worked when I played. Don't take it as gospel.

I'm not sure I feel the same way about the Cloud MU as you do. I feel like the MU is actually in Lucas favor for reasons like, absorbing Cloud Neutral-B, offstage gimping, and spacing the shiz out of him. Like you said earlier, if you were to absorb or hit back his neutral-B, then he will most likely be reluctant to throw it out. And you can probably tell whenever he's going to throw out. The offstage gimp is a gimme. Aside the fact of Limit Break Up-B, If you are to get him off stage, all you need to do is just assault him with PK Thunder. I've found that to be one of the easiest gimps in the game just because of how much it stalls him. Spacing is also really good for fighting Cloud. Lucas' Zair and PK Fire also cancel out Cloud's Neutral-B which is also really good. That will also make Cloud have to approach because he can't really do anything at that point. These are just things I've noticed by playing against Cloud in Tournament.

 

[that_rock]

I'm not sure I feel the same way about the Cloud MU as you do. I feel like the MU is actually in Lucas favor for reasons like, absorbing Cloud Neutral-B, offstage gimping, and spacing the shiz out of him. Like you said earlier, if you were to absorb or hit back his neutral-B, then he will most likely be reluctant to throw it out. And you can probably tell whenever he's going to throw out. The offstage gimp is a gimme. Aside the fact of Limit Break Up-B, If you are to get him off stage, all you need to do is just assault him with PK Thunder. I've found that to be one of the easiest gimps in the game just because of how much it stalls him. Spacing is also really good for fighting Cloud. Lucas' Zair and PK Fire also cancel out Cloud's Neutral-B which is also really good. That will also make Cloud have to approach because he can't really do anything at that point. These are just things I've noticed by playing against Cloud in Tournament.

I think a lot of people that have issues with matchups are just not playing it right. Guys, Lucas is not an aggressive character. He can be aggressive and has the tools to be, but some matchups are better played safe and defensive. If you find yourself getting punished a lot, instead of asking what moves you should be using to approach or complaining about how hard it is to approach...just don't approach. That should make lots of matchups better.