Data Phrygia's Notebook - Lucas Matchup Discussion

[Piipp]

I think a lot of people that have issues with matchups are just not playing it right. Guys, Lucas is not an aggressive character. He can be aggressive and has the tools to be, but some matchups are better played safe and defensive. If you find yourself getting punished a lot, instead of asking what moves you should be using to approach or complaining about how hard it is to approach...just don't approach. That should make lots of matchups better.

I agree. I feel like there are some MU's where it's okay to be aggressive but, whenever there's a problem with being aggressive is when you should take a step back and start spacing some. That will also teach people how to learn MU's more efficiently.

 

[MrWhYYZ]

Cloud V Lucas isn't a match-up we can play defensively for multiple reasons. Cloud is easily gimped if and only if he doesn't have Limit. Cloud gets Limit by running away and charging 6 seconds which is perfectly doable especially when this is his go to tactic from go.
And there lies the huge problem in this match-up. If you are playing a Cloud that 99% of the time runs if he doesn't have limit you'll have to approach to stop him from getting Limit because when he has limit his options are way to ridiculous. And Lucas can't approach Cloud at all thanks to his B-air being safe and spamable without any care in the world because it beats any button clean. Also Cloud can slide underneath your Wavebounced PK-fire on reaction with d-tilt, which sucks.

 

[that_rock]

So I have this friend who plays Ike. I'd like to get consistent wins against him.

Tips?

 

[Berni_Alt]

So I have this friend who plays Ike. I'd like to get consistent wins against him.

Tips?

just pk fire the **** out of him and hell cry, i also have a friend that plays Ike and it works for me

 

[Login_Sinker]

Pretty much. Also Zair, obviously. I think Lucas wins this match up because of his good camp game against Ike, who can't make use of those big hit boxes when he has trouble getting in.

 

[Berni_Alt]

Pretty much. Also Zair, obviously. I think Lucas wins this match up because of his good camp game against Ike, who can't make use of those big hit boxes when he has trouble getting in.

yeah not much to say about this match up, u just have to watch out for Ikes grabs and hard hitting moves

 

[MrWhYYZ]

If your punish game is on point you can punish all of Ike's grounded footsie tools with OoS F-air. (Punishing Ike's Down tilt is extremely close to frame perfect though.) Also if he does aether you can spike him after he rises up. You can use a PK-freeze to force a air dodge and then go for an aether spike.
And never try to punish side-b when he does it out of a short hop. It actually (almost) auto cancels and is close to impossible to punish so don't even try and just go back to neutral. (Seriously Ike gets Foxlike specials and we can't even auto cancel an aerial. >.<)

 

[Piipp]

If your punish game is on point you can punish all of Ike's grounded footsie tools with OoS F-air. (Punishing Ike's Down tilt is extremely close to frame perfect though.) Also if he does aether you can spike him after he rises up. You can use a PK-freeze to force a air dodge and then go for an aether spike.
And never try to punish side-b when he does it out of a short hop. It actually (almost) auto cancels and is close to impossible to punish so don't even try and just go back to neutral. (Seriously Ike gets Foxlike specials and we can't even auto cancel an aerial. >.<)

Do you not know about the bair auto cancel?

 

[MrWhYYZ]

Do you not know about the bair auto cancel?

Can you consistently A-land with Lucas's Back air during a match? Also, none of his aerials AC from a short hop which is a shame.

 

[Login_Sinker]

On the bright side, the Fair landing lag buff made it a pretty safe option if you fast fall it with proper spacing. It's now one of my favorite close range tools/potential approach options.

 

[Berni_Alt]

yeah so when do we get a new Moderator

 

[Kodystri]

This is my opinion on Lucas's MU Spread

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rJ9h2jFzwx4

 

[Piipp]

Can you consistently A-land with Lucas's Back air during a match? Also, none of his aerials AC from a short hop which is a shame.

Im talking about the FH PK Fire ac as well as the SH Airdodge ac

 

[Berni_Alt]

Ok i was playing on Anthers ladder today and came across a very good lucina player, I had trouble keeping her away and getting a grab on her can anyone help me

 

[Login_Sinker]

Ok i was playing on Anthers ladder today and came across a very good lucina player, I had trouble keeping her away and getting a grab on her can anyone help me

Do you perhaps have a video you can show us? If not then all I can offer is general match up advice against Lucina. In general you want to zone with PK Fire and Zair, and use our good cqc options (Jab, Dtilt, Ftilt) if she gets too close for comfort. Space yourself either out of sword range so you can poke from a distance, or close enough that you can out-frame data Lucina. The place she wants you is somewhere in between those points, where she can make use of her ranged attacks to pressure you without fear. I think this advice can mostly be applied to fighting the majority of sword characters in the game as Lucas.

 

[Berni_Alt]

Do you perhaps have a video you can show us? If not then all I can offer is general match up advice against Lucina. In general you want to zone with PK Fire and Zair, and use our good cqc options (Jab, Dtilt, Ftilt) if she gets too close for comfort. Space yourself either out of sword range so you can poke from a distance, or close enough that you can out-frame data Lucina. The place she wants you is somewhere in between those points, where she can make use of her ranged attacks to pressure you without fear. I think this advice can mostly be applied to fighting the majority of sword characters in the game as Lucas.

yeah i forgot to save those games, but that guy was good man never seen any better lucina player, but if i ever play again im gonna save that video and send you a link
but thx anyway

 

[Berni_Alt]

Lucas matchup discussion is so sad i dont see anyone asking here something, so im gonna ask it.
Played against pikachu today, he was all over the map using his up B trying to grab him was a pain and the only way i could punish him if he ****ed up, any tips here.

 

[BornABrawler]

Lucas matchup discussion is so sad i dont see anyone asking here something, so im gonna ask it.
Played against pikachu today, he was all over the map using his up B trying to grab him was a pain and the only way i could punish him if he ****ed up, any tips here.

Against Pikachu it can be pretty hard to grab him anyways with his good movement options, such as Quick Attack. The best way I deal with this is by waiting for the second zip (because they usually always go for it) then punish with a good OOS move (Jab, f-tilt, d-tilt, sometimes f-smash) if they are not too far away. If they land too far away and safely, attempt to retreat and use PK Fire or Z-air to space them. Also make sure to take them to a stage where they can't use platforms/lips to cancel out of Quick Attack. Quick Attack is one of Pikachu's most annoying attacks for the reason that it can be hard to punish. I personally try to retreat and space myself again in order to reset neutral, but that's just me. Hopefully this helps!

 

[Berni_Alt]

Against Pikachu it can be pretty hard to grab him anyways with his good movement options, such as Quick Attack. The best way I deal with this is by waiting for the second zip (because they usually always go for it) then punish with a good OOS move (Jab, f-tilt, d-tilt, sometimes f-smash) if they are not too far away. If they land too far away and safely, attempt to retreat and use PK Fire or Z-air to space them. Also make sure to take them to a stage where they can't use platforms/lips to cancel out of Quick Attack. Quick Attack is one of Pikachu's most annoying attacks for the reason that it can be hard to punish. I personally try to retreat and space myself again in order to reset neutral, but that's just me. Hopefully this helps!

ok thx i will try to use this when um up against a pickachu again

 

[Berni_Alt]

I heard you could cancel toon links bombs out with Z-Air is this true and does it work on his other moves too.

 

[that_rock]

I heard you could cancel toon links bombs out with Z-Air is this true and does it work on his other moves too.

IIRC it hits the bomb back, so technically it does cancel it out. If you wanted to mix it up, you can psi-mag to absorb the bomb for tons of free healing. I'm pretty sure zair can cancel all of his specials save upb, don't quote me on that thou.

You should be labbing the things like these instead of asking IMO, because you can't always trust things you find on the internet :D. Matchup questions are different in the fact that you need lots more testing to be done than just 3 minutes of your life.

But yea, the Link v Lucas and TLink v Lucas matchup was a lot more brutal in PM and Brawl, simply because of the addition of the Zair and the new properties of the bomb that allows you to absorb it.

 

[Berni_Alt]

IIRC it hits the bomb back, so technically it does cancel it out. If you wanted to mix it up, you can psi-mag to absorb the bomb for tons of free healing. I'm pretty sure zair can cancel all of his specials save upb, don't quote me on that thou.

You should be labbing the things like these instead of asking IMO, because you can't always trust things you find on the internet :D. Matchup questions are different in the fact that you need lots more testing to be done than just 3 minutes of your life.

But yea, the Link v Lucas and TLink v Lucas matchup was a lot more brutal in PM and Brawl, simply because of the addition of the Zair and the new properties of the bomb that allows you to absorb it.

yeah but this place is pretty quiet so i thought i would liven it up by asking questions now and then.
but thx for replying

 

[Berni_Alt]

can we have a matchup discussion about mewtwo, what do you guys think about him, whats your experience with him.

 

[that_rock]

can we have a matchup discussion about mewtwo, what do you guys think about him, whats your experience with him.

Too lazy to write something long.

He light, he die.

 

[Berni_Alt]

Too lazy to write something long.

He light, he die.

I totally get what you mean man, I will never be beaten by a mewtwo main ever again thanks to your advice.

 

[meleebrawler]

For what it's worth, I consider Lucas a harder fight than Ness because of his rock-solid defence vs. Shadow Ball and better pokes. Not that much harder, though, since Lucas is still outmaneuvered and outspaced outside zair. It's a grindfest with both characters poking away until one makes a mistake.

 

[Berni_Alt]

if you load up UP-Smash with lucas, do you get the invincibility frames when you load up or when the load up ends and your smash starts.
Been wondering about this for a while.

 

[Shrug]

According to Kurogane Hammer, Lucas is invincible for frames 1-4 of up smash and his head is intangible for frames 15-29. There is no invincibility while charging the move. Only the first four frames of the actual attack animation are invincible.

 

[frozentreasure]

It's the first four frames from when you give the input; there is a noticeable flash that is the invincibility.

 

[S_LoX]

How do I deal with ?
I recently went to a monthly tournament and faced a campy which I lost to. The main problem i had was approaching, i was being out spaced with pikmin so zair and Pk fire could reach him. Don't know wether to play defensive or aggressive but i know that this has no problem timing me out. Also don't know much about Olimar and MU with him so does anyone have any tips to help with this problem. Is it worth taking damage from pikmin for a risky dash attack? is PKT1 from a high and far platform a viable option? How can i edgeguard with ? Is f-smash worth the risk? I'm also a pretty skilled / main (also trying to pick up ) and one of the best players in my community but this Olimar player is just taking out most of the top player and it's mainly due to lack of MU knowledge. Any Help is appreciated

 

[MrWhYYZ]

Olimar is extremely tedious and straight up weird match-up.
If he throws pikmin around like it's candy smack is straight back with F-smash. You can reflect his throws, all his smashes and neutral B so throwing around random F-smash is viable especially when he's interupting your neutral with his pikmin. If you have Pikmin on you use Up-air to get rid of them fast. Except for the white pikmin if it's on your leg. The white pikmin has the smallest hitbox and Up-air doesn't have that great of a hitbox to hit below enough. If you can Olimar's Up-B doesn't have a hitbox so if he goes low it's a free spike or D-smash and if he goes high, catch his landing with a free dash attack into combo or sweetspot dash attack to kill him around 110.

TLDR. Add random F-smash to your defensive game.

 

[PKBeam]

Olimar is about fundamentals. you need to see his camping patterns and move to bypass that. dont take dumb risks. when you approach you should do so with the intention that all damage you take during approach should be mirrored onto him, plus extra.

If you corner him, try to cover his escape options. Sometimes you can capitalise on rolls or empty jumps.

 

[Berni_Alt]

I heard the best button layout for Lucas is with C-stick turned into specials.
I tried using it but i feel like i have less air mobility, is it really worth to use it or shoulf i stay with the normal layout.

 

[MrWhYYZ]

I heard the best button layout for Lucas is with C-stick turned into specials.
I tried using it but i feel like i have less air mobility, is it really worth to use it or shoulf i stay with the normal layout.

If you can wavebounce PK-fire without it, you don't need it. Wavebounce PK-fire is needed against faster characters otherwise they can punish it easily. D-throw, Footstool D-air is easier with C-stick on attack because fastfalling and pressing D-air is a different timing.

Slightly off-topic, are you in the dutch Facebook group?

 

[Berni_Alt]

If you can wavebounce PK-fire without it, you don't need it. Wavebounce PK-fire is needed against faster characters otherwise they can punish it easily. D-throw, Footstool D-air is easier with C-stick on attack because fastfalling and pressing D-air is a different timing.

Slightly off-topic, are you in the dutch Facebook group?

Sorry i dont have facebook, but if i play against a slower character then i can use normal layout.

 

[MrWhYYZ]

Sorry i dont have facebook, but if i play against a slower character then i can use normal layout.

You can, but it's better to just stick to one layout.
Try wavebouncing PK-fire without setting your C-stick to specials and if you feel you are competent enough throwing it every single time just use Attack.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vw1elkJwtDo <- How to wavebounce without C-stick.

Again off-topic: Are you going to avalon?

 

[Berni_Alt]

You can, but it's better to just stick to one layout.
Try wavebouncing PK-fire without setting your C-stick to specials and if you feel you are competent enough throwing it every single time just use Attack.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vw1elkJwtDo <- How to wavebounce without C-stick.

Again off-topic: Are you going to avalon?

haha, yes im going if you see a tag with Berry thats me, i have seen that video before but maybe i should watch it again.
Its hard to do it consistantly so im going to try to improve my air mobility with the new layout, maybe that works better.

 

[Login_Sinker]

Been working on anti-Bayo tech for Lucas. At 54%, weak Fair>Dtilt lock>Dthrow>footstool>Dair lock>slightly charged Usmash is a kill combo. Alternatively, FF Nair > Dtilt > Grab will also lead into the Dthrow > Dair > Usmash footstool kill. Nair>Dtilt may not be true at that percent though.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Rosalina is analyzing Lucas at her sub-forum again. You can go to the following thread link if you have anything to contribute for the match-up.

http://smashboards.com/threads/416751/

 

[rocksareblue]

Here's my take on some of the matchups (I've recently picked up Lucas in Brawl and Smash 4 so I'm not a complete expert on the matter).
1. Lucas vs. Pikachu, this match up is largely in Pikachu's favor due to his speed. If the Lucas player is able to predict what their opponent will do, it's easier to lead into PK Fire, or a grab, and (if you're opponent is extremely predictable) up-smash. The key is to pace the match, figure out what your opponent's strategy is, and do your best to adapt. Leave the smash moves for definite KOs, largely due to their end lag. If they miss Pikachu, he can easily lead into combos or a KO.
2. Lucas vs. Cloud, this match up is moderately in Cloud's favor. As noted by several other posters, due to his usage of limit. It is true that you'd have to chase down Cloud to make certain moves or place himself at a certain position on the field. Cloud isn't a large threat on a field like Final Destination because it's linear and he'd be forced to dodge your PK Fire, grabs, and zair (snake rope). If he attempts Blade Beam, you can easily absorb that and heal yourself (somewhere around 4%). I've found that chasing Cloud down w/ PK Thunder is decent in stopping him from charging his limit. However, it can leave you vulnerable if it doesn't land.
3. Lucas vs. Ness, a battle for the ages. Slightly to Ness' advantage, since his moves don't have as much lag as Lucas's do. It really boils down to getting close to Ness and maintaining pressure for the entire round (remember, Ness has the Behemoth Back Throw. So don't get sloppy). A battle of PK Fire will become old and predictable, eventually one or both of you will use PSI magnet, so properly timing your usage of PK Fire is essential.
4. Lucas vs. Bayonetta, arguable in Bayo's favor. The thing to keep in mind is that Bayonetta's move have a lot of end lag. You're better off spacing her w/ PK Fire or waiting for her to attack, shield/avoid it, and lead into a grab combo (you can also rotate from grabs to a few moderate jabs/PK fire.
5. Lucas vs. Ike, either even or in favor of Lucas. Reasoning: Ike is a slower character, as long as you don't let him pressure you, Lucas can stop half of his moves w/ PK fire, follow up w grabs (do so wisely), and easily pace/space the match until it's time to go for the KO. Ike, like most heavier characters, deals a lot of damage w/ very few hits. The key is to avoid them as much as possible, and punish them when they miss.
6. Lucas vs. Link/Toon Link, literally one of the hardest matchups for me. Lucas can't absorb anything (maybe their bombs, I've never tried it) and if he's too busy absorbing something they can easily follow w/ an arrow or boomerang. It's hard to close on on these two due to their swords and grabs. However, a missed grab is an opportunity given, so take advantage of those. Again, PK fire is very useful in giving yourself distance while accumulating damage. Your best bet, is to either space them out or force them to approach (don't let your opponent approach if you're not planning on punishing it).

General Rules for any matchup:
1. Determine if you have to play defensively (spacing) or offensively (grabs, jabs, smash attacks) and when to alternate between the two.
2. DO NOT SPAM PK THUNDER. It's very annoying and predictable (especially in for glory). And if you're opponent is faster, you'll get punished for it every time.
3. Look at this list for things that can be absorbed w/ PSI Magnet http://www.ssbwiki.com/Absorption I'm not sure if they all can be absorbed by PSI Magnet.
4. Your bat is your friend. Although it may not be the best thing to use close range, it can deflect almost any projectile. However, the projectile changes in it's angle.
5. PK Fire & Zair are great spacing/approaching tools when used wisely.
6. Timing and adapting to your opponent is key. Especially when they're faster or hit harder.
7. PK Thunder and PK Freeze are great edge guarding tools. Depending on the recovery, PK thunder is a great method for gimping your opponent. PK Freeze, will often force opponents to air dodge or attempt to recover sooner than they should.

If there's anything I missed, I'll attempt to address it later.